geisha779

What would be more intriguing would be LCM's honest response to the women who ran him off and now run the show. What WAS that big Homo purge really about anyway?? Why that? They sure used him pretty good. Who has the money, power, and private vacations together? Things that make you wonder??

That same garbage filtered down. . . trickle down abuse. . . I was labelled as were many here. . . just not as intensely or publicaly as RD. No guns and dogs held on my kids or belongings either. Too much crazy. Took some serious guts and integrity. Can you say Christian? Or is it insanity? Really certifiable behavior.

I don't think in top leadership there were too many, but then again, we looked to men to define Godly. RD has taken heat for trying to do the right thing.. . . and still does. There were good men who were Limb Leaders. . . when confronted with all the sewage, they left, and took entire limbs out with them. I would no longer ask if they were Godly, but recognize they did the right thing. I am thankful for the one who guided my way out. Refused to let anyone follow him further than the door.

Not my favorite Pastor, but he makes a good point. :)

One more Mark, I promise, last one. :) I have been called on the carpet in the doctrinal forums more than once for the way I speak. But, I speak from the heart. It is a heart overflowing and satisfied. Full of worship and praise. I can't help it. I am satisfied in Him. Here is a way to explain it that perhaps you can begin to understand. There is something in this understanding that not only satisfies the intellect, but the very heart and soul of the one who knows. I no longer have to endlessly prove or debate. I am filled. I just want to share that with you. For you to be filled. Not quest and strive and wander. (There is that language again!) "All day long we are surrounded by "the spirit of the age." We see it, hear it, and even believe it in bits and pieces. We know people in it and we rear our children in it. There is rarely a time when we can actually remove ourselves from it. It is, in some ways, even in our blood. But how odd would it be to think that this "spirit of the age" is an actual person. We do not think there is an actual being called "The Spirit of the Age" that marches through time and takes on different shapes and sizes. "The spirit of the age" is no more than an attitude stemmed from certain beliefs of a conglomerate of people in the midst of a culture. That is not the only way we use the word "spirit" today. If someone has a good attitude, we say, "That's the right spirit." If someone uses energy and gusto, we say, "She sang her song with spirit." If we're talking about the mindset or idea of a person, we say something like, "The spirit of the Wright Brothers is alive and strong at Boeing." When we say a person has the Spirit of Christ, what do we mean? In one sense, we could be speaking of someone who shares the passion of Christ to help the poor and suffering. If we meant it in this way, "spirit" would be used similarly to the way Gandhi used it. The "Spirit of Jesus" is simply a man to emulate—merely an example for everyone. But when the Bible talks the Spirit of Christ, it is referring to it in a very different way. This is what makes following Jesus unique to following anyone else. Romans 8:9 says this: You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. What is the Apostle Paul saying to the Christians in Rome? He is saying that "Spirit" is not an idea or an attitude. "Spirit" is a living person. In fact, Paul is saying that if we are not rightly related to this person, if this person is not part of our lives, then we do not belong to God. We are still a long way off. When Christ came into the world he didn't come merely to give us an example in suffering, a good attitude in oppression, nor a way to help the poor and needy, though an example he did give. Rather, he came to reconnect us with God, to birth a relationship with our maker that has no end, to love us who are unlovely, understand us who are easily misunderstood, and to quell our fear of death and suffering because he identified with us in both and conquered their treacherous stings. The Spirit of Christ is a Person who walks with all who choose to join as citizens of his Kingdom. He's real, not simply an idea; he's a person ready to meet us in the moment, not merely an example of bygone years. Malcolm Muggeridge talked about his filming a documentary of the Holy Land. He walked with his friend along the road to Emmaus. The same one mentioned in Luke 24. He said, "Shortly after the Crucifixion, Cleopas and a friend were walking from Jerusalem to Emmaus and inevitably talking as they went along about the Crucifixion, which had happened so recently. They were joined by a third man who … shared in their conversation. As my friend and I walked along like Cleopas and his friend, we recalled the events of the Crucifixion and its aftermath in the light of our utterly different and yet similar world. Nor was it a fancy that we, too, were joined by a third presence. And I tell you that wherever the walk, and whoever the wayfarers, there is always this third presence ready to emerge from the shadows and fall in step along the dusty, stony way." When the Spirit is a person, and not just an attitude, then a relationship is not only important, but imperative. It is this Person who promises, if we allow Him, to dwell in us and we in Him. It is this Person who promises to be with us to the very end of the age. Let us think afresh that relating with this Person is the central reason of why we were made."

A little bit more Mark, so you can understand why it is hard for me to hear you pronounce misunderstanding on "most" Christians. From the perspective of another faith. I honestly don't think you understand most Christians. . . here is a bit that might help you understand better. Copied with permission. http://www.rzim.org/GlobalElements/GFV/tab...78/Default.aspx As an apologist, I am often engaged in conversations that involve the philosophical, theological, scientific, and historical reasons by which one could reasonably conclude that Jesus is exactly who he said he was--the eternal God now come in the flesh. But interestingly enough, Jesus tells us in John 13:34-35 that the final apologetic by which this world will recognize that he was sent by God is the demonstrable love-relationship that will be seen in the lives of his disciples. Why is it that the unfathomable truth of Word made flesh can only be conclusively understood in a living, verifiable community of believers? Why is it that of all the methods that the evil one could invent to thwart the purposes of God, none would succeed so spectacularly as the disruption of relationships among the members of the body of Christ? There is one simple but profound answer. God is a Being in relationship and any truth pertaining to Him, in the final analysis, stands attested by exemplary relationships among his creatures. To the clever lawyer who questioned him about the greatest commandment in all of Scripture, Jesus significantly refrained from giving religious or ritualistic requirements; instead, he had only two simple relational injunctions to offer: "Love your God" and "Love your neighbor" (Matthew 22:34-40). By placing these two commands at the same level, Jesus brought relationships into focus. Thus, worshipping God is not about mere observance, but relating to Him in love. He is likewise the one who liberates the individual from the self to love others. The first commandment thus becomes foundational and makes the second obey-able. But by the same token, obedience to the second commandment becomes the evidence that the first has been obeyed. The brilliance of this summation is polluted by the pluralist cacophony assaulting us at every turn. Yet it is in this context that the Church finds itself entrusted with the onerous responsibility of speaking about the relational nature of God. What better way could there be to communicate this blessed reality than by a model which would uncompromisingly demonstrate it before a watching world! In this, no contemplation of the beauty and glory of God within a community of believers can be complete without some understanding of the relationship between the Three Persons of the Trinity. The image God has given us in the Trinity is an image of three co-eternal, co-equal Persons giving themselves to one another in eternal self-effacement. The glory of our God is not a thunder-and-lighting quality, but a self-giving love within the Trinity. And Jesus's prayer for his disciples (and us) is that this same glory may be given to us that we "may be one" even as they are one. Is there any question why servanthood and relationship-building is no longer an optional extra for the Christian but essential to reflecting the glory of the Triune God? In a society that is increasingly fragmented and individualized, it is easy to develop a theology of the Church as a collection of perfect individuals. But a right understanding of the relationships within the Trinity would militate against such an interpretation. We do well to remember the powerfully acted parable of Jesus as he washed the disciples' feet. The feet of all the disciples were dirty, but as they would submit themselves to cleansing by one another, they would emerge as a perfect community (John 13:14). We may fundamentally have no difficulty having ourselves cleansed by Christ, but to submit to ablutions by another is virtually unthinkable. The disciples (and we as well) would have been very happy to wash the feet of Jesus, but his injunction was that they should wash one another's feet. It was a strange but effective way of communicating the importance of relating to one another by forgiving, cleansing, and accepting one another in perfect mutuality. In other words, two imperfect individuals can synergistically portray a perfect relationship--the very antidote so desperately needed to correct our individualistic privatized spirituality! It is an issue within Scripture that cannot be overemphasized. The hallmark of the Church of Jesus Christ is a relational testimony which serves as a pointer to the reality of the Eternal Triune God. May we, under God, consciously discern every trap that the devil sets for us to rupture relationships, and trust the Holy Spirit of love to breathe his healing and remake our fractured bonds. It is why we have cults.

If you really want to begin to understand what it means when one says the person of the Holy Spirit. . . this may help a bit. http://www.rzim.org/IN/INFV/tabid/437/Arti...78/Default.aspx Copied in part with permission. . . . The Personality of God has often been defined in terms of the stand-alone qualities of intellect, emotion and will. No doubt, a good reason behind this conclusion has been the result of our reflection on corresponding qualities in human persons. So far, so good. But can and do these qualities exist in isolation? Is not the intellect the activity of the mind about something? Is not the emotion a feeling about another? Is not the will active in deciding and acting freely with regard to available choices? I submit that personality in God and in us cannot be understood in isolation but in relationship. The Ultimate Person, God, therefore will not be absolute and perfect except as Person in Community. To be sure, the Church did not formulate the doctrine of the Trinity as the result of an extended philosophical reflection of the kind described above. The first disciples who were strictly monotheistic Jews were inescapably driven to the doctrine because of their exposure to the divinity of Christ as well as their familiarity with His explicit relationship with the One Whom He called His Father. This route to Trinitarian conclusions needs to be explored although that is not the purpose of this essay. Here we are content to let reason reflect on revelation – an exercise recommended by Oxford theologian, Alistair McGrath. The Trinitarian understanding of God gives an excellent starting point for the branch of philosophy called epistemology. This particular branch deals with questions pertaining to knowledge. In the New Testament, Jesus’ striking statement in Matthew 11:27 has profound epistemological implications in addition to the obvious relational aspects it describes. We may legitimately expatiate on this verse to show that the omniscience of God is not dependent upon His knowledge of His creation although that is how this divine quality is often defined. Such an understanding will require the implausibility of making God dependent on His creation to actualise His capacity for knowledge. For God to be truly exhaustive in His knowledge of the Other, the Other will necessarily have to be as infinite and coextensive as God Himself. Because God is infinitely relational, the necessary subject-object relationship necessary for such knowledge is contained within His own Being. The prophetic passage in Proverbs 8:22-31 (particularly vv. 30,31) has puzzled and confounded Jewish commentators who nevertheless saw Messianic possibilities in it. For the Christian, these verses are the delightful precursors of the Father’s pleasure in Jesus (Matthew 3:17 and many other verses). The emotions of God are nothing short of the mutual delight infinitely and eternally enjoyed by the Father and the Son. The self-confessed Christian hedonist, John Piper has put his finger rightly on this aspect of the Christian’s privilege. The Song of Solomon occupies a central place in the Scriptures only because sexual love in human marriage sacredly reflects the mutually enjoyable and satisfying relationship within the Trinity. Willful actions and morality are inseparable. The infinite holiness of God can be seen not as one of ascetic separation but of an eternal love-commitment to the Other. While asceticism recommends breaking of relationships, true virtue consists in building them. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in John 17: 24b. The eternal love-relationship between the Father and the Son is the crown of divine holiness. The blazing glory of the Godhead is in some sublime way linked to this eternal Communion between the Persons of the Trinity (John 17:2,4,5,22,24). What about the Holy Spirit? None of the three aspects of the Super-Personality of God would be realised without the activity of the Infinite Person of the Holy Spirit. The mutual knowledge between the Father and Son is made possible only by the Spirit as He makes that knowledge possible for us (I Corinthians 2:10,11). The joy and delight of the Godhead is the joy of the Holy Spirit (Romans 14: 17). The Medium of communication of infinite love between the Father and the Son has to be Infinite Himself – the Sprit Who now pours out that love into our hearts (Romans 5:5). It is the Spirit Who provides space and freedom for the Son to be Son and the Father to be Father because He is the Spirit of freedom (II Corinthians 3:17). But He is the Spirit Who makes One the Father and the Son so that we have one God, not three. That is the Sprit’s ministry to us as well (I Corinthians 12:13). In the Infinite-Personal-Relational God of the Bible, the Individuality of the 3 Persons and the One Community of the God-head are both equally sacrosanct. Sterile conceptual monotheism is an arid desert. The robust Trinitarian God of the Bible, on the other hand, is the profound ravisher of the hearts and minds of His worshippers. - L.T.Jeyachandran

I think the signs read. . . "PFAL is The Way to hell". PFAL 77 --- Muncie, Indiana Rather profound looking back. . . my time in was somewhat hellish.

Mark, If you have so many questions, perhaps you should find a good bible believing church, and a minister who graduated from an accredited theological seminary to sit down prayerfully with a bible and expound on these things with you. It is my express hope for you. We seek God, and humble ourselves before Him. Endless disputes over words and arguments against who God isn't and how all Christians who claim an intimate relationship with God and do His work are "wrong", is not the way to understand. It is not even close. You question, great, question God. Ask Him, don't tell Him who He is or isn't. . . . because we can ALL read the same verse of scripture and see differing things depending on our knowledge and own understanding. You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. You said to me in another thread we needed a bible to know God. Well, I let it go. However, what we need is someone to tell us about God to believe. The Holy Spirit confirms the truth in our hearts. If you have to ask me what that means. . . or how one knows. . . it is clear it has never happened. You need to pray and be patient. Deliverance can take years, but God is so merciful and gracious. If we humble ourselves before Him, express our hearts, which are already laid bare and truly desire to go beyond our own head knowledge. . . He will be kind and He will be gracious to us. Stop hopping from one faith to another outside of Christianity to find the Christian God. Any group who claims to have the "right" understanding but stands opposed to it, might be a problem. You seem to forget I believed both ways. I sang the songs mocking the trinity. I had volumious arguments against that which I rejected. Words and words and endless disputes in arrogance. Makes me queasy to even consider it now. This is not about a gentle or kinder way to say I am still right. . . all Christians wrong. Most Christians? No . . . ALL. . . to be a Christian you must confess Jesus as Lord? No? "Whom do you say I am?" God is to be glorified. God is glorified, and will be. That is what we were made for. . . to worship. Sunesis said the most profound thing on here ages ago. She said. . . "you will never understand the greatness of what was done for you" Still sticks with me. That is how we glorify and worship. When we understand the greatness of what was done. We do that when we understand who God is. .. . revealed to us through scripture via THE Holy Spirit. . . who is GOD. The symbolism of a dove from heaven. . . it should bring you closer to God. . . it should reveal something to you about the character of God. Jesus. . . should bring you closer to God. . . reveal God to you. Our creator, a God so big as not to be contained in a little box carried around on the shoulders of men. . . has expressed Himself to us. This is what you look for. . . . this is the "truth" you seek. . . GOD. . . not head knowledge . . . but HIM!! Truth is a person a WHO. . . . No man alone saved you. . . . God did. Don't get hung up on endless disputes over words. . . like person. . . it is just a word. . . a way to describe something distinct. You are not just body alone, or spirit alone, or soul alone. All three make up one person. Seperate and distinct yet one. You are made in His image. Good luck, God's nature and an understanding of the gospel are all wrapped up together. Worship is our response. Any real knowledge of Him should be setting you up for feet washing. . . not argument. http://www.rzim.org/IN/INFV/tabid/437/Arti...74/Default.aspx http://www.rzim.org/IN/Resources/Read/Enga...40/Default.aspx Meekness and majesty, manhood and deity In perfect harmony, the Man Who is God; Lord of eternity, dwells in humanity, Kneels in humility and washes our feet! O what a mystery! Meekness and majesty - Bow down and worship For this is your God! :)

It means to give an answer with meekness and fear, knowing that the whole of GOD cannot even be contained in His Word...How often I have spoken of His LOVE, Grace and mercy and Forgiveness. Recognizing that all have fallen short of the glory of GOD, To All he shows His Love and All have feelings and have been abused and continue to be abused in many hurtful ways...Including me!!!. It means to choose to believe GOD by knowing Him and having a relationship with Him; to believe His testimony, the evidence of His Word both written and practised; or to believe as you choose to believe or to define GOD as you choose to define Him. The battle is saying what GOD testifies of Himself is alterable to what You choose and that it is okay to alter ones own perception of His Word or GOD; that he doesn't care if we do this...that His integrity is within the questionings, standards and judgments of mankind. RG, I don't even understand this. How does one know? How does one choose to believe God by KNOWING Him? Don't we believe first and then see then know Him? Isn't that the paradox? Isn't it why we defend our faith in Him? We don't defend the book. We can put forth the reasonable case for why it is a believable testimony. . . what is that? Is it the relevance, uniqueness, cannon, reliability, prophecy, historical and archaeological evidence. Sometimes it takes going back that far. . . No? Now, why would the battle get as far as saying that what God's testimony of Himself is alterable? Because it is our nature to make our own way. . . to reject His way?. . . a good apologist will defend His way. That can take time and patience. Don't you agree? It isn't wrong to preach, or to teach, or to pastor, or to walk in Love, grace forgiveness and empathy. etc...in full knowledge that GOD alone is the ONLY Righteous Judge. It is a God given responsibility. Preaching, teaching, pastoring and sharing are all essential if done in GOD's LOVE. I never said otherwise but to be straight, we pastor the flock. I have always had a loving relationship with GOD even when I knew nothing much about him, I knew not to blame Him. I knew to trust Him. I knew that He is my Heavenly Father and that He is more Loving, Wise, All knowing and capable than I or anyother man could ever totally understand!!! Within the relation with Him, He has taught me with His Love, by His demonstrated example and with scripture. Only in a relationship of Love do you truly see a heart. As pointed out this is a forum for discussion of many diverse viewpoints and beliefs. I know only what they express to me, although I give their hearts, lives and experiences much Love and respect...whether it is seen or not seen. Often that is far more than I receive back. I give my best in Love!!! RG, YOU didn't do any of these things. God did. The glory and praise belongs to Him for your witness and testimony. . . not you. You and I. . . . we were never good enough or pure enough or righteous or MEEK enough to know these things on our own. If that is the case, God did that for you. Jews believe children are born pure. . . Christians believe we are fallen. We don't find Him. . . He finds us. Paul reasoned with people from OUT of the scriptures. . . he didn't reason the scriptures with them. Acts 17. . . he identified to reason with them. I do both!!! Well, that's great then. But, God declares Himself in scripture, never defends His integrity. . . . We defend our faith in Him. . . the gospel message, God's integrity needs no defense. Jesus actually had to reprove the Pharisees for their worshiping of the laws or the SCRIPTURES. . . He reproved them for missing the whole point. They were angry people who passed a lot of judgments while reciting long strings of passages. I don't worship the Word of GOD. I worship GOD!!! Are you a Pharisee? Because if you are not. . . then I don't know why you would defend an accusation against them? Depending upon the circumstance Jesus Christ and His apostles and disciples did both, by example, demonstration and quoting scritures... It is written...He preached the word, He taught the Word, and demonstrated the Word. He send out His disciples to do the same and to pastor them in Love. He held them accountable in the responsibilities he gave them as well!!! He is the word. He declared God. He taught from the scripture concerning Himself. That is a heavy accusation to lay at anyone's feet. If You are alluding that I worship leather and ink; I can defend myself and say that I don't. I am known by my fruits which you may or may not see. GOD knows and that is enough for me!!! We all worshipped the bible in TWI, that is what it was. . . . bible worship. I didn't say you are doing this now. . . . did I ? True by GOD and Jesus Christ are Supercedant and Superior to any of man's abilities and not under the same limited constraints; and even this is based on need, circumstances and conditions and the member of the body of Christ's particular abilities, knowledge and experiences. We ALL are imperfect, we all fall short...that is why we are not appointed judges...too big and too important a job for any man to even consider. Only GOD is perfect and judges absolutely rightly!!! I have NO idea what this means. . . does it mean we never speak? Converse? Reason? What? God's integrity is NEVER the question. . . EVER. . . we defend the GOSPEL to the best of our ability? God doesn't need US to defend Him or His integrity. . . it is without question With the gospel. . . it is that the bible is true. . . and that we just have to believe it? Is that really what the gospel is? It is in part that and the example and demonstration of GOD's Love!!! The love of God is demonstrated through the message of the gospel. . . that God so loved the world. . . or that God reconciled the world unto Himself. . . if this is not the case. . . we end up arguing about words and lose the message. Sometimes!!! But without the knowledge where is wisdom and understanding to even know!!! What do you think beginning with the idea of one truth is. . . not knowledge? Not understanding? What is your point? Could it not be wisdom to begin where someone is and converse from there? Isn't that what God did with us? I think presenting a whole GOD is even greater and even more necessary and even more timely!!! I don't even know what this means? YOU don't know a whole God. . . we know in part. . . we know the gospel. We preach Christ. Why God so loved the world through Him. It is the WHOLE point of the bible. Our hope is to be fixed on Him not our great knowledge of semantics. . . otherwise we quibble about WORDS Without evidence and testimony it can certainly be perceived as only a story, only a doctrine,only a religion, etc..... Which is why we present the evidence. But, that can be a long road. It can begin with a defining of one truth, can't it? If one cannot even accept the logic of objective truth, to defend our faith, don't we begin there? So, how do you jump right in to do the impossible and present a "Whole" God. Just say, the bible says it. . . I believe it. . . that settles it? Where is the reasoning from the scripture there? Consider this. . . we can end up worshiping our knowledge of God limited to what we have been able to grasp thus far in our study of the word. . . . that is why Paul had to say the depth and riches of Christ are beyond understanding . . . . this is why we worship Him, not our knowledge of Him. . . knowledge fails. True. I am very secure in my Worship of GOD - with All my Heart, soul, mind and strength...not my own reasonings nor understanding!!! Okay, but we don't defend ourselves. . . we defend the faith.

Well said Twinky! What I am getting so far, and remember I am blonde, is that our only rule of faith and practice. . . should be the KJVersion of the bible as revealed correctly through PFAL? Maybe accompanying collateral damage. Am I even close? Cause I don't think that greatest secret in the world today, as been disclosed yet. We are all on pins and needles BTW. If our whole "Rule" is based on our knowledge and understanding of PFAL. . . we are in deep trouble. I thought, and call me nutty, that Christianity was based on our worship of God and the Lordship of Jesus in our lives. Doesn't it take a life time to know that. . . . the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! So, shouldn't love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves suffice and keep us occupied? If revelation of God, comes from God, won't He reveal enough of Himself through scripture and our lives to keep us going on this? Tell me again why we need more than God. . .(I could stop there) a good bible, a heart to serve and each other to help keep us straight. . . I just don't need some dead ex-cult leader from Ohio to define my "rule" for me.

To add: Man's basic spiritual problem is that they don't believe the integrity of God's word? How about. . . . if you continue in my word. . . . you are my disciples indeed. He that is of God, hears Gods words. . . . you hear them not because you are not of God. The bible was written FOR the believer, not the disbeliever. . . . Man's basic spiritual problem according to SCRIPTURE is that they love the darkness rather than light. Jesus wasn't rejected because He was a lousy bible teacher. . . He wowed em with the scriptures. . . people want to go their own way. The rich young ruler quoted the scriptures to Jesus. . . verbatim as a matter of fact, he knew they were true. . . He believed. . . but He didn't want to follow Jesus at the expense of his own way. The bible has been quoted and known for centuries. . . it isn't until the last hundred years and the advent of postmodern thinking that the idea of an objective truth has been questioned. . . the bible has been a respected book. Thomas Jefferson KNEW the bible. . . loved it so much. . . he made his own version. . . BUT, he missed the point. What was the problem of the eunuch? That he didn't respect the scriptures? No. . . the eunuch's problem was "what is the point of the scriptures?". VP's problem wasn't that he was a plagiarist. . . . it was that he WRONG. And this BTW, is how we all came to worship the bible. . . always God and His word. . . the word, the word, and nothing but the word. . . where is Jesus in this litany? Where is the reality behind "The Word?" WHY are God's ways perfect and better than our own. . . cause the bible says so? We are defenders of the FAITH, not a book.

RG, That was nicely stated. Let me ask you a question. When you read that we are to give an answer with meekness and fear. . . . what does that mean? When you say the spiritual battle between man and God is to believe the SCRIPTURES as true or not. . . . what does that mean? Isn't what happens sometimes. . . .is that a Christian can ending up preaching the scriptures instead of preaching what is in them? Isn't a Christian really suppose to share their faith about Jesus? The bible is our source. . . .but not our source of hope. It is what is written within. It is the reality behind the words. Sometimes, especially when people have been abused with the scriptures. . . they are angry about them. No? Make sense? Paul reasoned with people from OUT of the scriptures. . . he didn't reason the scriptures with them. Acts 17. . . he identified to reason with them. Jesus actually had to reprove the Pharisees for their worshipping of the laws or the SCRIPTURES. . . He reproved them for missing the whole point. They were angry people who passed alot of judgements while reciting long strings of passages. Conversly, the woman at the well, even she could recite scripture(The law). Jesus had to declare who He was to her. . . to gently and tenderly show her that she was missing it. The main point of the story and His confrontation with the pharisees was I AM. The worship of God not only has to be consistent with scripture, but it must be centered on the word made flesh who revealed the Father. Jesus didn't say the bible is the way -- the --truth--the life. . . . He said He was. This in NO way discredits the "Word" but it places worship in its proper position. . . on a person, not leather and ink. Before an attorney can try a case, they have to build a case. . . sometimes this can be a lengthy process. . . it can even begin with the credibility of the evidence. That can be a detailed process. If we are trying to win a case. . . we have to understand what it is we are trying to defend. With the gospel. . . it is that the bible is true. . . and that we just have to believe it? Is that really what the gospel is? It is the message contained within. That this is God's plan for humanity. We can actually tell this story, without quoting a single verse. And sometimes we even have to begin with the reasonableness of one truth. Sometimes we have to begin sharing the gospel by looking at a thought process and what truth is? MAke sense? I think that to present a loving God to someone who has been in a situation like we all have. . . . we have to love them, respect that they differ, and reason out why WE accept these things to be true. Not just that they are. Call me crazy. Man's great spiritual battle with God, is not that the bible is true. . . it is if they accept Jesus as Lord to accept a relationship with Him. That they accept Jesus as the only way. But the whole point is. . . . God so LOVED the world that He did this. It is a stunning story with great hope and depth and staggering sacrifice. It really is the greatest story ever told. What is important is the meaning of it. . . . the heart behind it. . . . the author of the book. Consider this. . . we can end up worshipping our knowledge of God limited to what we have been able to grasp thus far in our study of the word. . . . that is why Paul had to say the depth and riches of Christ are beyond understanding . . . . this is why we worship Him, not our knowledge of Him. . . knowledge fails.

Geisha is of the female persuasion. . . did you just call me clueless, a devil, take the Lords name in vain, call me self-righteous and a failure all in the same breath? You must be tired now. LOL Classic!

I may join you potato. . . heartbreaking. But, you know what gets me? In this little scenario. . . the only way to get healing is to learn about God. . . from the only source on earth since the 1st century. . . . PFAL. . . . taught by the unrepentant man who did the hurting. Got me?. . . Sounds really reasonable. . . No? Rascal nailed it. . . the lengths some have gone to simply to justify this man and his theology. Who was he anyway? Just some old guy from Ohio. . . . he wasn't my father or my uncle or guardian of the truth. . . No. . . . he wasn't really anything to me. Why did I EVER think he was?

Whitedove, Hi, how are you? Good? I truly hope so. I want to make a quick point here. . . . because I think it is important. I don't want to derail this thread or cause a thread war or what ever, but I want to say this. When I have had exchanges with you in the past. . . . they have usually turned into this kind of discussion. You said, I said, it means, no it doesn't. I didn't say that. . . you said I said that. . . you misrepresented me. . . . blah blah blah. Did you EVER consider that this is a learned reaction or tactic? A disputing over words. Being nearly obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? It is what we did in TWI. . . . while missing the important things of God. If you want to call churches lacking, social, idolators, uninformed. . . whatever you want. . . do so at your own peril. . . I for one . . . . don't want to play semantics gotcha. . . . Take care Geisha

I just didn't want this to go by . . . especially the bolded parts. That last bit. . . . about God working in those who obey Him. .. .I'm thinking Shazdancer just might have the scripture to back that one up.

WD, As much fun as it has been in the past to dispute "Words" with you. . . . your post and meaning were clear enough. I didn't misrepresent what you said. . . . I simply called you on it. Rascal, Skyrider, et al: Possibly another reason that the offshoots are so dangerous when it comes to isolation is that it actually keeps ex-cult people who want to continue on toward a Christian life. . . . from mixing with those true Christians who will help them overcome the false teachings and understanding we were indoctrinated with. They can spot it a mile away and tell a phony, arrogant, cocky, know-it-all, from one who has the loving heart of Christ. Funny, if you tell them that we are not to keep our eyes on Jesus, and all our happy stories about idolatry, they sense something amiss. If we espouse our superior knowledge of doctrine and back it up with our stunning understanding of big H little h. . . . they want to have a sit down. Further, once we tell them who Jesus is not. . . all the while having exposed by behavior that we haven't a clue who He is. . . . they pick up on that. Keen sense of . . . . something is really wrong. However, they can be patient, kind, longsuffering, accepting, and willing to help, something we might not be too familar with. Not lovebombing, but genuine care. I love church, it is where Christians gather to worship, pray, study, learn, and fellowship with one another. It really is a haven. The church can mean many things. . . a small bible study. . . a larger congregation. . . a state, a country, a world. . . . it is the body of Christ. . . anywhere there are those who believe, love and know Jesus. I can't speak for all churches. . . but lots of churches keep busy with good works, not at the expense of study, but in tandem with it. They consider service to others part of being a Christian, they do it as a community. . . . wonder where they got THAT crazy idea. :) Oh, and most ministers are underpaid(emergent church the exception). . . and actually collect money. . . just to give it AWAY!! Nutty people.

So we can't give a critique on the splinter groups unless we have been to them all. . . . . but we can go ahead and lump all mainstream churches together and so eloquently critique these??????? Sorry, what were the last 100 churches you were a member of? You should try it sometime. . . . they have bibles and teachers and they pray and everything. Heck, they even know doctrine. It is rumored that some Christians even go to church.

What a beautiful cat Twinkle was. . . . you can just see the personality. I am truly sorry for you and your Mum. 10 years is a true member of the family. We had one when I was a kid who lived to be 21. . . . Jitterbug. . . . . when she went it was heartbreaking. I was talking to a friend the other day who just lost her dog. . . . she was devestated. . . . real grief. I really am sorry. Keep up the good work with Crypto and Tux. Love, Geisha

God selected him? God and I have to have a serious sit down. . . . He won't let greedy, lecherous, old drunk, chain smoking, pervs be ministers, but He will trust one with all this dug up revelation? To fleecefeed His flock? Not buying it. On what planet? Mars? You are warned in the bible about these guys. Warned and cautioned and told to steer clear. . . . Being young and stupid is one thing. . . . but now, with all that has been exposed concerning what we were involved in. . . . set aside the Christian aspect. How about some basic common sense? For the record. . . Mike. . . VP had that creepy eye patch on when he made a grab for my backside. . . . wasn't a fatherly pat. He didn't have much time left to do some serious repenting. Hardly a knee jerk reaction Mike. . . simple common sense. To Add: I thought being a minister was God's calling on ones life. . . . not that we draw straws and pick the least offensive one.

geisha, Forgive me for not engaging in total. Have you ever thought through how the relatives of Uriah, a literal murder victim, must have felt in how to receive the Psalms of David? I have, and a lot. Now it's time to move on to the goodies, that waysider is patiently waiting for. No problem Mike, much is going on in this thread. To be honest, no I have not given it deep thought. Now, in turn, have you considered what the bible tells us to watch out for in ministers and teachers? What to avoid? You don't need to answer, I realize you are making another point. I just hope you have thought through the requirements for a true minister.

Mike, Just one more question. . . an honest one. . . . you said "There may be some of valid complaints about other situations in the ministry that were pretty bad, but even those can be exaggerated and after 30 years should be put to rest by now" What makes you say this? Did you ever hear rape likened to "soul murder"? There is a reason for that. How do you put THAT to rest? Given the lock box of guilt and shame which was heaped on the poor helpless spiritual peon hobos. . . . without some intense couseling. . . . serious medication. . .and years of recovery. . . . how do you do that? It is always with someone. . . like any event in our pasts. Is PFAL as truth. . . . taught by the one who inflicted such pain. . . really the way to put that to rest? Close your eyes and listen to the teachings of great truth. . . . just put aside this is the one who murdered your soul? If it is truth. . . it is true for everyone. . . no? Doesn't fit like a hand in a glove for me.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Fair enough answer, thank-you. You do understand though, that what you are claiming is something that must be true for ALL if it is truth. Further, because you see it as truth, you are using this perception to espouse your definition of truth. . . . PFAL. If it is in fact the "Right" understanding that has been buried. . . . it is the right understanding for everyone. . . . no? Mike, who are you? A prophet? Have you ever seen "The Passion"? Mel Gibson did a fine job showing us all what Jesus went through for you. . . in detail. . . and living color. By your reasoning. . . Mel Gibson could be the one who got "It". . . .No? Yes? Maybe? VP wasn't the middleman. . . at least according to scripture. He drank like a fish and felt all women belonged to the king. What if he was just drunk when he thought he heard God?