geisha779

I can't believe I spelled criminal wrong in my last post. . . sorry would not let me edit. I need to seriously spell check.

Makes me laugh.

You just THINK it should be easy. HA! Mike, If you are going to say Jesus' only rule of faith and practice was the word. . . . then you better start brushing up on Deuteronomy. That is the book He quoted from the most. Jesus spoke of HIMSELF with the words the Father gave Him. But, before we go trying to compare VP to Jesus we need to remember . . . . Jesus said. . . before Abraham was I AM! He was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of God. VP I fear is in a much warmer climate. Consider if you will. . . just consider in light of VP's scripture twists. . . that even the devil said. . . "It is written" Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. 2 In these last days, He has spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. 3 He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Right on Mark, oh we agree! Sort of. . . Let's celebrate!! :) It is the Holy Spirit who works these things in our life. But, we do have to be aware and make a freewill effort to guard against temptation. Prayer being the biggie. . . prayer with faith I mean. Jesus, while teaching His disciples how to pray said ". . . do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. . . " Jesus while in the garden, told Peter, to pray that he would not enter into temptation. Yikes! God does not tempt men. . . but He will subject them to trials that may expose them to assaults from Satan. As in the case of Job, or Peter. . . . our desires should be to avoid the desires of sin altogether. God will work that into our lives. One way or another. . . usually another. . . . through endurance. What do these trials do. . . our bouts with temptation? Faith is strengthened with trial. Patience is built. Understanding is gained. Sin exposed. We can't really do this without God. He knows what we need before we ask. There are things in our hearts we are not even aware of. . . which is why you hear Christians asking God to search their hearts. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. . . we ask to be delivered from temptation. . . but in order to "Renew" our minds about it. . . we have to have that understanding. Despite what TWI said. . . the devil is subtle. You know what the real sin is? Not depending on God for all of this. Faith. . . I love it. . . it does bring peace. We sometimes HAVE to go through this stuff to learn. It is how we grow in grace. The real test is in thanking Him for it. . . . rejoicing in the Lord. When my anxious thoughts multiply within me. . . . your consolation delights my soul!

Whitedove, You said the following in response to several posts. . . "Nice try but No, we have laws and truth to uphold and we are to obey those laws also a biblical principle." We are not held to "Biblical" principles on this forum or one could argue in this country. We obey laws because the government has the power to incarcerate! Not everyone is Christian. You and I would not even AGREE on what biblical principle IS. That is why we discuss such issues in the doctrinal forum. We follow the rules of the forum. . . articulated and enforced. Presumption of innocence is used in CRIMINAL LAW, not internet forums, and there is no actual statute to require any of US EX-TWIERS to adhere to it on the internet. . . you continue on as if there actually is. Show me the statute.. . cite it. Please don't confuse crimminal law with civil statutes either. . . the burden of proof differs. . . .it would be hard to prove libel here and it is doubtful crimminal libel charges would ever even be considered. I have already explained that burden in relation to public figures. We are not required to bring crimminal charges before we discuss these issues of abuse and suffering at the hands of men we once trusted. No matter how hard you want it to be so. BTW. . . The presumption of innocence is a principle that requires the government to prove the guilt of a criminal defendant and relieves the defendant of any burden to prove his or her innocence. Not that they are innocent until proven guilty, but they don't have to prove their innocence, the government has to prove their guilt and there is due process of law! We are not the government here. . . just the victims of a giant UGLY scam. "The presumption of innocence, is an ancient tenet of criminal law, is actually a misnomer. According to the U.S. Supreme Court, the presumption of the innocence of a criminal defendant is best described as an assumption of innocence that is indulged in the absence of contrary evidence (Taylor v. Kentucky, 436 U.S. 478, 98 S. Ct. 1930, 56 L. Ed. 2d 468 [1978]). It is not considered evidence of the defendant's innocence, and it does not require that a mandatory inference favorable to the defendant be drawn from any facts in evidence. The presumption of innocence principle supports the practice of releasing criminal defendants from jail prior to trial. However, the government may detain some criminal defendants without bail through the end of trial. The Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states that excessive bail shall not be required, but it is widely accepted that governments have the right to detain through trial a defendant of a serious crime who is a flight risk or poses a danger to the public. In such cases the presumption of innocence is largely theoretical. Aside from the related requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the presumption of innocence is largely symbolic. The reality is that no defendant would face trial unless somebody — the crime victim, the prosecutor, a police officer — believed that the defendant was guilty of a crime. After the government has presented enough evidence to constitute probable cause to believe that the defendant has committed a crime, the accused need not be treated as if he or she was innocent of a crime, and the defendant may be jailed with the approval of the court." You can't just ignore what the law actually means in favor of what you want it to mean. . . . just makes it your interpretation. You can think whatever you like about the presumption of innocence. Where it applies. . . what it is. You can get it all mixed up in your head and have it come out in the words you post. That is fine. . . go for it. But, when you try to impose this private standard on others. . . someone will call you on it. Especially here. Ex-cult members tend to spot this tactic a mile away. I wonder why?

I have been married a looong time. . . I think I forgot those days. . .but, then again hubby has always been my greatest fantasy :) I do get that part, it was just the calculated nature of the premise. But, I could have been reading into it too. You make a good point. I wish I could relate, but I am, of course, perfect. LOL

It requires these things if one brings criminal charges. Otherwise. . . no it doesn't. That is how it is taken OUT of the realm of common knowledge discussion. By going to a DA or the POLICE and ASKING for an investigation by MAKING criminal accusations. Talking about things on an ex-cult forum is different. Again and for the last time. . . it is not even libel. Since you seem so intent on legal definition. . . VP was a limited PUBLIC FIGURE. . . one could persuasively argue his cohorts were as well, "Leadership" that is. . . . New York Times V Sullivan stated that the burden of proof in a libel case has an ADDED element for a limited public figure to prove. . . that being. . . the one accused of libel spoke a falsehood with MALICE. You might be surprized how narrow the area of interest can be to determine if one is a limited public figure. VP and Co more than qualify. Why do you do this? What bothers you so much about people telling their stories? WD, it was a bad cult. We all got tricked. I have posted here about 9 months now. . . . I have seen this same conversation again and again. It doesn't matter that people explain the law to you. If VP were tried, he would have had the presumption of innocence. No one says he has to have it on an internet forum. Show me the statute. There are better people to defend

I know you didn't ask me Mark, but quite frankly, when has that ever stopped me before? :) I actually can relate to what you say. With the exception of a few coming close to Jesus part. LOL He is perfect. In fact, this morning when I read your post, my mind immediately went to the verses prior to Philippians 4:6. Stand in the Lord. . . agree in the Lord. . .rejoice in the Lord. . . the Lord is near. . . the last I love. Although this could be in time or space the context strongly suggests space. The Lord is near. . . the presence of the Lord is always with us. This is a reality. . . not just a concept or idea. What happens when we sin. . . when we do or think something in which the Lord will not partake? We pull away from that presence. The Holy Spirit is gentle in His conviction. . . No? To set us straight. However you word it, we know don't we? Do we sit and analyze our behavior? Not usually. We repent and come back as quick as our feet will carry us. Like little Christian hedonists greedy for the Lord. As we grow in this fellowship or communion, self-control is worked into our lives. . . we are filled with The Holy Spirit. . . . we are filled with something good. Our thoughts are of Him. . . we do dwell on things that are pure. . . . because we are in communion more and more with Him. Sin becomes the thing that messes that up. We don't LIKE that messed up. If we do. . . then it is time to really examine. How does one be anxious for nothing? Pray? But, also know He who answers is near, loves you, and is so very able, we have faith in Him, confidence in Him. Surely not our ownselves, but the again, we can have confidence in that which He is working in us. God doesn't do bad work. He is confident in His ability to guide us. . . in His own work in us. . . No? God knows He is able. That fruit which are of the Spirit. . . gently are worked into our lives as we are filled. I love it. So simple. That doesn't mean we don't watch our thoughts or be careful of our actions. Transformation is a big deal. We can't transform on our own. Well, we can try but I think we know what happens then. It is not to say we won't ever sin. . . that is a lie, but hopefully it is less and less as we are filled with the Holy Spirit. We may still even wander and stray off, no doubt we will, and it may take us a bit to realize it, but He always comes for us. Let's us know what is going on. That is why our confidence is in Him. That peace. . . surpasses every thought.

Rascal, Your integrity is just fine. Sometimes I read your posts and want to stand up and applaud!! :) I am thrilled you are better and your voice is being heard again. I missed it.

Rottiegirl, I was just wondering why this guy would start out by indulging in fantasy about sin? If being filled with the Holy Spirit and built up in faith we gain the very attributes of The Holy Spirit. . . what He works into our lives. . . . love, joy, peace. . . . why would sin be fantasy worthy? It becomes abhorent to us. . . . no? It is abhorent to God. This is why I can see Waysider's point. Without being filled with something else, where loving your neighbor becomes a desire and is a result of loving God. . . . and being filled with the Holy Spirit. . . . trying to control your mind and thoughts can become a pathology. An obsession or an anxiety. I think this is an odd premise to begin with. . . since I didn't act on it. . . I dreamed about doing it? Kinda a void there, much like TWI. Legalistic. Mind control. The desire for the things of God should be greater and greater in our lives, the desire for sin less. It should be the things things that are pure, just, and good, we think on or dream of. . . . no? That is what made me uncomfortable I think. :) God fills us with better things to concern ourselves with. . . .

One more thing. This is exactly the kind of thing revealed in scripture. Not overtly, it has to be seen as a whole. It is revealed. The nature of God. I am so happy someone FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY articulated this a bit for me. Although I would tweak the first post. . . . the concept or understanding from scripture is there. That is what trinitarians are on about. That is the whole triune nature of God and man thing. . . . made in His image. It is soooo beautiful and sooooo amazing. If we focus so hard on trying to relate to God by our ownselves, what we understand, instead of letting God relate Himself to us. . . . we miss it. It becomes dry and dull and empty. We make God in our image. I love this thread. It isn't exactly what I understand, but so much CLOSER than I have been able to articulate. This is why we have worship. . . . how can you not praise such an amazing God.

Out of bed, not out of the house. Lucky you, I have been posting! :) Thanks for the prayers, that is lovely, I take ALL I can get!! On the bright side, my skinny jeans are loose!!

Just to add. . . because I read on. . . LOL. . . God is described as a Mother, Father, A woman in Labor, in Luke 15 referred to as the woman with the lost coin, a woman who does not forget her nursing child. . . on goes the list. . . . . Sorry Abi, take this for what you want. :) "The Greek phrase translated “the restrainer” is literally “he who restrains” and is obviously in the Masculine gender. The Greek phrase for Holy Spirit is Hagios Pneuma, and Pneuma is a neuter noun. Although the Hebrew word Ruach (Spirit) is of the feminine gender, the idea of the Holy Spirit being a female presence probably stems from the Hebrew Shekinah, a feminine noun based on the verb shachan (to dwell) that doesn’t appear in the Bible but which was coined by Post-biblical Rabbinic scholars to describe God’s Presence." Does the gender of a word in greek or Hebrew have to do with gender identity?? I don't think so? I am no scholar though. But, the idea of God unanimously described as male in the bible, is wrong. He is described as both male and female. Not referred to as both. . . described. It is to relate himself to us?? Male and female. No? . . . . The bible says He is Spirit. Seems kind of a silly distinction. . . . was God the male or female part in the conception? . . . He is God. The word man has always been used to describe US man and woman. . . we have the word mankind in English. "God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness," and then "God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them." Thus, the image of God was male and female - not simply one or the other. This is further confirmed in Genesis 5:2 which can be literally translated as "He created them male and female; when they were created, he blessed them and named them Adam." The Hebrew term "adam" means "man" - the context showing whether it means "man" (as opposed to woman) or "mankind" (in the collective sense). Therefore, to whatever degree humanity is made in the image of God, gender is not an issue." You can't discount the masculine imagery in the bible, the masculine names of God, and the revelation of God as man in Jesus. Which is why the Holy Spirit is referred to as a He as part of God.

Sirguessalot, I really liked your first post and found soooo much to relate with in my understanding of God. Bet you thought you would never hear that. I wonder what you think of the term or reference Perichoresis. Similar to what you were describing in we humans is what we find in the Godhead. A dance if you will. Instead of an ocean, I would describe the Spirit. . . or Holy Spirit. . . as the one(person) who allows the community of all three. . . so, not so different I guess. It IS about community but even more so, perfect community. Perfect communion and perfect love, where there is an overflowing of joy. God is actually glorified within Himself. We were created out of that abundance. Out of that love and overflowing nature of God. Much nicer than "Gee, God was lonely". Much deeper and more full understanding of God. Beautiful really. Thanks for that. We are made for community. . . with the Godhead or God. . . and with each other. Which is why Abi, it is so important for a community of belivers or Christians to understand this doctrine. You wonder why I pick? This is why. So different from the dry and "Seemingly" intellectual dessert of so called, monotheism in Cults. (Christianity is a montheistic faith. God is one.)The endless debate and emptiness of it. Which is for the most part rejected. . . . for the fuller and more scriptural Godhead. Not unlike what moved you here on this thread. This is EXACTLY what gets me about God. Moves me too. This is what makes me so filled. His nature. More Sirguessalot. . . . I am pretty interested in what you are saying. Very close to what I understand about God. Very cool.

If people are innocent until proven guilty. . . . bail should NOT exist. . . . holding people WITHOUT bail until trial. . . . would be illegal. . . . you can't jail an innocent person until proven guilty of something. Geeze that is ONE standard!! Roman law. Let's set a new standard. . . which is an old standard. . . Common law. . . . until proven innocent. I may pull my hair out if we have to hear another lecture from the resident law professor. Close your eyes WD and pretend you are in the UK.

Just an aside, I wonder if you ever notice what Jesus does when He speaks. He speaks in parables. . . He says "Consider" consider this, consider that, He asks questions. He nails the entire human heart in a few phrases. I just love that about Him. He asks "Who do YOU say I am?" Same question He is still asking today. He is always gently causing people to examine what they do believe and think, while often giving them an alternate explanation. Offered, but never forced. It is so cool. In relation to the topic, there is a very sad website, truly misguided, where people make videos denying the Holy Spirit. Thinking this will damn them, but not really believing in the first place. Mocking really. It isn't the unforgivable sin. . . . but they think it is. . . http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/ We rode the rail much closer in TWI IMHO. When I mentioned calling the Jesus of the church a devil spirit. . . or the name of the Jesus. . . I forget. . . . and our understanding of the Holy Spirit. . . . we were closer to what Matthew is speaking of here. It was all wrapped up in such arrogance. Just consider it! :)

Jeff Maybe you could expound a bit on your understanding of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 12. I am genuinely interested. You alluded to the issue as being serious.Some things not being forgiven. Now, remember, it doesn't matter what VP taught. . . . or anyone, I am curious what Jesus is saying to YOU in these scriptures! :) Here are some simple basic understandings from bible gateway. 22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: Jesus presents a world sharply divided into God's kingdom and the devil's kingdom, and indicates through various arguments that one cannot be working for both kingdoms at the same time. Jesus first asks why the devil would work at cross-purposes with himself (vv. 25-26). Perhaps the devil might permit a few exorcisms to bring fame to a sorcerer and gain ground in the long run; Jesus' widespread expulsion of demons, however, constitutes no minor strategic retreat but a wholesale assault on Satan's kingdom on earth. The necessity of concord or harmony for survival represents common wisdom in ancient society (unfortunately sometimes ignored by Christians today). 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Jesus next questions why his opponents single out his ministry of exorcism while approving exorcisms performed by their own disciples (v. 27). Jewish exorcists were common and employed a variety of magical techniques (see comment on 8:17; compare Meier 1980:134-35), quite in contrast to Jesus, whose mere command the demons obeyed in fear. Third, if Jesus was driving out demons by God's Spirit, this action constituted proof that the time of the kingdom was upon them (12:28). Most Pharisees apparently believed that the prophetic Spirit had been quenched when the last biblical prophets died and that the Spirit would be restored only in the time of the kingdom (Keener 1991b:77-84). Although many Pharisees apparently rejected miracles as proof of truth (Bonsirven 1964:16), Jesus summons them to consider an alternative explanation for his miracles, namely, that the promised time of the Spirit has come. Indeed, the Greek construction here could be rendered "since I drive out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom has come on the scene." Matthew rightly interprets "finger of God" (Lk 11:20 and Q) as God's Spirit, showing that Jesus is the promised harbinger of the Spirit (12:18), the first agent of God's kingdom. This makes good sense: as the climax of history approaches, the forces of God's kingdom and the devil's are arrayed in battle against one another. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Fourth, Jesus had defeated the strong man, "binding" him (tying him up) so that he could plunder the possessions in the strong man's house (v. 29). That is to say, Jesus invaded Satan's domain and defeated him so he could recapture the human hearts that Satan had enslaved through demon possession or other means. Far from being authorized by the demons' ruler, Jesus had authority over the devil-one spirit that no mere magical incantation could thwart (compare Test. Sol. 6:8)! Since Jesus claims a specific act of binding prior to his ministry of exorcism, he probably refers back to his defeat of Satan at the temptation (using language from Is 49:24-25). Jesus is saying that his integrity before God in defeating temptation has given him power over Satan. In some modern circles, attempts at exorcism dabble in imaginary demons or recite formulas taken out of context from Scripture. Although God honors faith regardless of the formula used, exorcists do not need to say "I bind you" to demons before expelling them; they just need to make sure they are walking in integrity before God (Acts 19:11-20). In establishing the first stage of his kingdom, Jesus already defeated the devil, and he has delegated his authority over evil spirits to those who are truly his followers, those who submit to his reign. The final "binding" of Satan awaits his future defeat (compare 13:30; Rev 20:2; Twelftree 1986:391-92); thus it is possible that his binding before the end of the age may have caught him by surprise (see 8:29). Finally, this list of arguments concludes with Jesus' warning that whoever was not on his side was on the other side (12:30). This saying also reflects common wisdom in both Greek (compare Suet. Julius 75) and Jewish (compare Flusser 1988:510-11) life. Jesus allows no would-be disciples to straddle the fence: one either follows him or opposes him, just as one does with the devil. 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Jewish teachers acknowledged that deliberate sin against God's law ("sin with a high hand" or "defiantly"-see Num 15:30-31; Deut 29:18-20; CD 8.8), such as deliberate blasphemy against God, was normally unforgivable (Jub. 15:34; 1QS 7.15-17, 22-23). Even such a sin as Peter's denial of Jesus (Mt 26:69-75) clearly does not count in the unforgivable category (28:10, 16-20); the context of blaspheming against the Spirit here refers specifically to the sin of the Pharisees, who are on the verge of becoming incapable of repentance. The sign of their hardness of heart is their determination to reject any proof for Jesus' divine mission, to the extent that they even attribute God's attestation of Jesus to the devil. The equivalent today would be someone who remained so committed to rejecting Christ that she determined to find alternative explanations for any obvious proof (such as miracles) attesting him. Even in what seems to be that case, however, Paul exhorts one of his students and coworkers to remember that we humans cannot judge who has forever crossed that line (1 Tim 1:12-20). Not uncommonly young Christians read about the "unforgivable sin" and fear they have committed it. We therefore must reiterate the point in this context: the sin is unforgivable only because it reflects a heart too hard to repent. Those who desire to repent, troubled by the fear that they may have committed this sin, plainly have not committed it! 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. That one's speech reveals one's heart may represent conventional Jewish wisdom, Jesus here indicates that even the most careless words spoken without thought will testify concerning one's character in the judgment day. God does not listen only to what we say during Sunday-morning church services. In this context Jesus is saying that one expects people like these Pharisees to blaspheme the Holy Spirit because their hearts are so corrupt. Because the Pharisees appeared righteous to most other observers (compare Lk 16:15), Jesus' harsh condemnation of their behavior sounds an even greater warning to those today who reject the truth of Christ yet sit in churches. 38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. Because God has already provided the world with sufficient evidence, he has the right to expect faith from those who have heard the truth. It is important to be ready to respond to people's objections to the faith, but sometimes we must also point out where the challengers ignore evidence already available to them. Jesus had already been providing signs, and his opponents were disputing their validity (vv. 22-24). The demand for a sign may recall Pharaoh's challenge to Moses for a sign . The whole of Matthew 12:39-45 constitutes Jesus' response to his opponents' charges (wicked . . . generation in vv. 39, 45 frames the section). Jesus explains that his generation needs no greater sign that he is from God than his own message. He first insists that the only sign the sign seekers would be given was the sign that God supplied to the Ninevites: Jonah's restoration after three days on the edge of death (vv. 39-40). One should keep in mind, however, that the Ninevites did not witness Jonah's resuscitation for themselves; indeed, there is no evidence he even recounted it to them (Jon 3:1-4; compare 3 Macc 6:8; Justin Dial. 107). The Ninevites experienced the effects of a divine sign they never recognized, and this may be Matthew's point (not clear in Lk 11:29, 32): the Ninevites repented without recognizing a sign, whereas Jesus' opponents were too hardhearted to repent despite the many signs he had been giving them (compare Mt 11:20-24; Jon 1:16; 4:2). All the Ninevites needed was Jonah's preaching of the truth, yet Jesus was greater than Jonah (Mt 12:41; compare v. 6). Jesus' second example is that Solomon's wisdom was enough to prove his divine appointment, and that a distant queen heard and came to him (as some Gentile seekers had done with Jesus-2:1-12; 1 Kings 10:1-13). Yet one greater than Solomon was there. The images of the Ninevites and the queen of Sheba condemning Jesus' generation in Israel at the judgment would have horrified Jesus' hearers, many of whom expected Israel's final vindication against the nations on judgment day. At least part of the point of the story of the queen of Sheba in context is Solomon's witness to the nations, and God's concern for Gentiles stands at the heart of the book of Jonah as well. By appealing to two repentant Gentiles in the Hebrew Bible, Matthew reemphasizes the Gentile mission: those who know little about Israel's God (like the Ninevites or the queen of Sheba, or the Magi earlier in his Gospel) are often least arrogant, hence most responsive to the gospel. 43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. 46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Matthew specifically places this paragraph within the discussion of this wicked generation (vv. 39, 45) and uses it (unlike Luke) to conclude Jesus' response to his opponents. Whatever else the parable might say about exorcism, Jesus' point is what it says to that generation: although Jesus was exorcising the generation, its evil leaders were setting it up to be demonized all the more by rejecting Jesus' reign (compare Jeremias 1972:106; Argyle 1963:99). If one translates the passage literally, a key sentence may be conditional: the demons will return if the house is left empty (Jeremias 1971:154). Were Jesus' opponents accusing him of being in league with Satan through his exorcisms (v. 24)? Jesus here returns the charge: it is they, not he, who are redemonizing their generation, for they leave the house empty in which God, the only true alternative to the devil, should reign (compare 23:38-39). 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

I wouldn't be offended. . .

I just saw this. LOL Gotta tell you, I laughed when I read the intial comment that promted your thread. It was directed at me and all I thought was, no doubt he was in TWI. I insulted an idol is all. People take it personally. I thought I handled it rather well. :) It didn't hurt me. There is no ill will toward the poster. I feel empathy for him/her. But, you do have a really excellent point. We did have a rather ugly habit of arrogance in general and a fall back position of the devil. Especially toward the Christian faith . Not only did we feel that they were ignorant, and we knew more scripture and the "Truth". . . . but often our superior attitude allowed us to judge the church as idolators. We did this from the perspective of an entirely differing faith. Different understanding of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We did this from outside the church. It got soooooo bad that at one point I think we called the Jesus of the church a devil spirit. Now, that is dangerous territory. Now, you are on some serious shakey ground. Having come full circle, and seen the same scriptures in a new light, having a new understanding. . . . and having met and prayed and worshipped with genuine Christians. . . I have truly repented. I understand WHY they believe as they do. . . I see the same God they do. . . . I know so many Christians. God has allowed me to take communion with the same people I mocked. To see the love they have for me, each other, and even those who mock them. Patience, because they came to the table empty and were filled. Not of their own doing. Amazing love and patience. Hope and genuine long term prayer for others. I am always undone by God's people. It is so difficult to explain, but, TWI and its offshoots are so different than the Christian church. They still have a condscending attitude about great truths that the church is missing. It is so ironic. . . . they are still our brothers and sisters. . . just misguided?? NO. . . they are not misguided. . . they are guided by a right understanding. . . not hidden from God's own people. They belong to the Most High. They are His servants. What does that make us? Mockers? The enlightened ones? or brothers? I used to send my son to a bible camp every summer. BUT, I would tell this poor kid. . . . Jesus isn't God. . . . they don't know what they are talking about. . . come to us so we can fix what they teach you???????????? Why send him somewhere I thought was so misguided? I don't know. . . thought we belonged, but they were just wrong. I got involved and met the people, most amazing place. It took until he was 10 for me to start realizing it was ME there was something wrong with. My understanding. It was the fruit in the lives of these people that served. They were not condescending. Ever have a 10 year old look at you with a little bit of bewilderment mixed with pity and gently correct your bible understanding?? Not fun. Humbles you. This throwing around of "devil spirits" "Discernment" and the mocking. . . it comes from a place of arrogance. God doesn't dwell there. It is confidence in our own knowledge or understanding that breeds such contempt. It is a dangerous payground. But, God He is so merciful. He does deliver people out of this hornets nest of confusion. The one thing that does always give me serious pause though. . . was our handling of the Holy Spirit. Kinda what you were alluding to in Mat 12. Little scary when you consider some called the Jesus of the church a devil spirit.

Certain things not only impact a life. . . they alter it. The amount of abortions pushed in TWI. . . . some coerced. . . . many from illicit sexual liasons. . . .also coerced. Please, these things cannot be undone. They shape a life. Most of the women affected were YOUNG!! This evil was the result of some real rotten twisted bible teaching. . . . by twisted rotten men. . . who just continue on like nothing ever happened. Or, it is over so "Get over it". Or we fix this error and it will be okay. . . . . our "New" group has a handle on the truth now. . . . just needed tweaking. "What's that over there?" "Oh nothing. . . don't look" "It is just the wake of destruction we have left in our path on the quest for a better truth" Altered lives. We are still talking about fellow human beings that were hurt. People have been shaped by their experiences. People still buy into this cult's teachings. It is sick. . . . they opened this can of worms the first time they compromised on basic human decency and hurt another for the integrity of "their groups version of The Word". Or, to cover for some sorry pervert "Minister"who was filled with greed and lust. Wasn't an isolated incident. God doesn't hurt people, He loves them. He doesn't actually like abuse in His name. He wants people to come to Him to be healed not maimed.

I am glad you have a version that you like!! I use the HCSB version and I love it too. Another thing that is nice to have is a good Devotional. Faith's Checkbook, Charles Spurgeon is a nice one. It is for each day of the year. One small page, but a wonderful way to start the day. Your mind tends to mull over what you have read. . . throughout the day. I carry it with me. Waysider made a good point. If and that is just IF, we worry so much about sinful thoughts. . . or having them. . . it CAN become a problem. Sometimes it can lead to anxiety and guilt. Decidely bad things!! :) The bible says to dwell on whatsoever things are true, honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Start your day there?? . . . . Then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. God doesn't convict us harshly. The Holy Spirit is gentle and kind when He convicts us of our sins. It is a peaceful, soft reminder when we start to stray. So tender. Guilt comes from another place. We have peace with God. . . the sacrifice was big enough. If we don't have that peace, we need to ask God about it. Too much worry over things is not very peaceful. But, you seem to have a good handle on it. Just took me awhile I guess. I was so conditioned to obey the word. . . I forgot it is actually God I am to obey. I never really got the connection quite clear in TWI. :) Sin is less of an issue when I am dwelling on Him throughout the day, praying, pondering, wondering and in wonder LOL. . . . He is a good shepherd. . . . keeps me straight. Glad you like this site. . . . I am happy it helps you.

LOL I think my stomach flu took care of prayers for anyone other than myself for the time. You moved quickly to the bottom of list when faced with wretching out "Oh God Pleeeease!" Should have saved the cash. . . . .

Scripture actually gives arguments against anxiety and worry. This site seems to put some back in. . . . at least for me. . . but, who am I? Put me on edge though. Scripture should free you up . . . . I am like you a news junkie. I just shut the TV off. Actually we don't watch it anymore (except baseball) Read your bible. . . for the sheer pleasure of it. The enjoyment. Read a different version than KJV and relax. God is good.

Abi, No arguing here. I think that is the issue :) . I am getting over a baaaaad stomach flu. Don't have much interest in a debate over something I don't believe anymore and never will again. I like Mark though. . . and his last post gave me a real chuckle.

Mark, Who says that you must predisposed to the doctrine of the trinity to see it? You? Who are you? I am living proof of the opposite. You know the scriptures, you know the doctrine. You deny it . You don't see it the way I NOW do. That makes our belief system different. Can't make it any clearer. If you think you are objective. . . so be it. If you think Christians are in error and you and the cults have the right way. Fine. Nothing I will say to you will change that. You want to argue. Endless debate. Ever learning. . . I am satisfied. I know God . . . in Him I am satisfied. Yes Mark, You have a Jesus. . . you find a beautiful story. The JW's have a Jesus, the Moonies have a Jesus, The Branch Dividians have a Jesus, TWI has a Jesus, Mary Baker Eddy had a Jesus, Word Faith has a Jesus, Islam has a Jesus, The Worldwide Church of God has a Jesus, New age gurus love Jesus. . . . It doesn't make any of them the Jesus of scripture. Notice the wide variety of Jesus' here. I could post more if you want. Vince Finnegan has a Jesus. . . . John Lynn has a Jesus. It does matter what Jesus you confess. Call Him what you want. Argue. . . words and more words. . . articles and volumes about how you are right. . . "Prove" how Christians are wrong. It still puts you outside the church with a different faith. Because Christians are not wrong. . . nor have they been misguided. They know God. It is a relationship. It is an intimate worshipful, heart flowing, love, relationship. . . as HE is a relationship. Can you relate?? If you think VF or Anthony Buzzard or the Abrahamic Faith is right. . . so be it. . . if that is what you see in scripture and are so sure. . .. fine. Or take some time to study some sound Christian thinkers. The TRINITY was defined not developed. . . . .I have finally "GOT" this. . . . I landed on the wrong side of this debate once, for me it is now a non issue. . . the thing is. . . Christians don't get tripped up with this one too much anymore. . . . it is understood through scripture,. . . our faith is built on THIS GOD of scripture. . . . this is why another understanding of Jesus dwells in the land of cults. You actually reject the Jesus I confess. But, you better be preaching to the cults cause the church won't hear you. This is why Mark Driscoll yells false teaching. Oh and what I did, was humble myself before God. . . ask Him who He is. . . and read my bible. Fact check? Did I fact check the Holy Spirit? You know the scriptures. We see in them differing things. Spiritual things must be discerned spirtually. My whole understanding changed. It was like a light went on. I was overwhelmed and humbled and praised and truly worshipped God. His presence, His Majesty, His Glory, I am continually undone by His greatness. It is too much for words, which is what I get called on here for. . . often. It is there. . . and when you see God revealed it will change your life. That is why the new birth is life altering. God then allowed me to meet the most amazing Christian teachers and pastors. . . my journey has been profound. I also know every argument you make against the same scriptures. You argue against the scriptures Mark. I did fact check you. It isn't worth my time or yours to ARGUE and endlessly debate. I could NEVER return to such an arid an empty faith. I just don't want you to miss it. That is my heart in answering you. . . told ya, I really considered it first. Did you ever consider this really is the same thing as TWI, but dressed up with more words?