geisha779

Well, given you have been my hero in the "innocent" thread. . . I just think you are very smart. . . whatever you believe. . . or don't! :)

No, they will probably tell him he is "Doing the best he can" with his limited understanding. Or, think him "Misguided" in his beliefs. They may tell him he doesn't really "understand" what he believes. . . they can "Help" him. Come on, it is kinder and more gentle now. Christians are no longer possesed. . . . they are just too stupid to see it the "right" way.

Jeff, We are trying to place this guy?? What is his first name? 14th Corps? Hubby was in the 14th for awhile. . . can't remember him. VP was sick by this time and I think he died before the 14th graduated. I doubt he spent much time with VP. How big is this group. Minnesota??. . . . What part? Haven't they ever heard of Minnesota nice??

and they all said. . . . AMEN!

Rascal. God forgives us. He really does. When we see what really happened and we mourn our decisions. . . that is repentance. Real sorrow. We ask and are forgiven. As bad as it was. . . for so many of us. . . God can heal our hearts and give us some peace. As for those who used God's name to coerce these things. . . and it surely was manipulation. . . if they don't repent and change. . . have sorrow and mourn what they did. . . justified by using a wrong interpretation of His scripture to cause evil. . . God will repay them. .. . God is not deaf, dumb, and blind as some would have us believe. Why. . . just look at Ananias and Sapphira! Their judgement was swift. Sometimes it is. . . . sometimes not. This was at a time when the early church was being established. They did not truly believe the gospel preached. What do the next few verses say. . . Great FEAR came over the church. . . but none of the rest dared associate with them. . . . but the people held them in high esteem. . . and all the more believers were added to the number. . . . Kept out the ones who didn't really believe. Kinda like Jesus saying you better count the cost before hand. Ananias and Sapphira were trying to promote their own righteousness, it was an outward appearance. . . not a true belief. . . They were gonna be the heros and the great righteous ones. . . look how great we are we have given our all. .. laid everything out. . .sound familar?? There ARE true and false believers. ..That is why. . . by their fruits you will know them. . . are they connected to the vine?. . . what grows in their lives?. Seems to me, many of these leaders never really understood or believed God or counted the cost for their actions. If they did, they never would have done or said such evil things. Or if they were truly God's people, He would have corrected them. . . . one way or another. We would now see it. They decide to remain in sin. . . we don't have to . . . a good example of loving darkness rather than light.

As was I. . . what??. . . .it's not true? We didn't have the truth not known since the first century?? We were not God's elite, true, only right, Christ replacing, household? What a bummer. I am not Jesus. . . or His replacement. . . . who knew??

So, by WD's logic. . . you are defaming the character of Hitler and Jim Jones. We have libel laws don't ya know!! If not libel laws, we always have WD to protect the character of those who have done great evil . . . and were never tried.

Mark, The fact that you AGAIN sit from a small group outside the church pronouncing "Great Misunderstanding" "Most Christians wrong" and "What I see the problem as" speaks to your character, and your judgements,. . . . . not theirs. They are known by their fruit, and the love they have for one another. Known to be His. Christians are connected to the vine. . . don't worry so, they know Him. . . personally and deeply. His nature is revealed not misunderstood. I don't believe you are on the road to hell, but to deliverance. It is just a bumpy and often long road for us ex-twi. . . we travel through alot of different places to get there. Lot's of people claim to "look into things" . . . . call themselves like the Bereans too. http://www.thebereans.net/cultus.shtml They are only "Bereans" if they agree with you.

Jeff, What do you mean by the perception of excellence? Is that a TWI thing I forgot about?

As I was scanning the offshoot links or something on here, I thought I saw Kevin and Sara's name with CFF. Kinda surprized me, but makes sense I guess. We always liked them. Nice people.

May God help you. And so you know, I have a housefull of young Christian men here. . . . 20 years old and known by their fruit. If you knew their true goodness in the Lord you would blush. They have a relationship with God, not their own understanding of the bible. They are known by the love they have for one another. If you really understood what you sit and pass judgement on when you call most Christians wrong and that they misunderstand. . . . well, you might mourn as I did. What if you are wrong? What if your knowledge has failed you and you are really passing judgement on God's people? I feel so sorry for you and the burden you carry feeling you must correct the whole Christian Church. Why. . . even Jesus Himself couldn't carry this burden. . . or could He? My sheep hear my voice. I think I will pass on anymore "articles". Others may differ. True knowledge is marked by humility.

Mark, I was thinking that maybe I should be a bit more detailed in my explanation of the Holy Spirit as a person. It is not fair just to throw something out and not fully explain it to you. You mentioned the understanding of Hebrew to understand Scripture. It is also important to understand words and the etymology of the words we use when explaining something. Lexicographers use modern usage to define a word . . . . that can often be confusing to us when we are discussing words used in the bibleor theology in their historical sense. Especially to explain something. Our dictionary changes as the use of words change. I bet you knew that. In fact, wrong usage can become defining in time. Now, you are a thinking man and I imagine to myself you are more than willing to consider. Contradictions are not to be embraced as part of the truth. . . in fact, in the Christian faith we stand against relativism where contradiction is exalted to the level of truth. The idea of God being three may appear to break the rule of noncontradiction to you. Something cannot be P and non P at the same time in the same relationship. I am with you on this. I love reason and logic. I get that is what you hear when a Christian says God is three persons One God. When a Christian says God is One. He is saying God is one in ESSENCE(Substance) three in PERSON. I hope to show you we are not as far apart in thought as it may appear, but I gotta get cerebral here, so bear with me. If I were to say to you God is 3 in essence(Substance) and 3 in person, that would be a contradiction. Kinda of like when you tell me God is one and sends parts of Himself out to express Himself to us in different ways. You have to explain away the personification of the Holy Spirit. The bible is clear on this issue. The Holy Spirit has distinctive duties, He is another for a specific purpose. He remind us, He points to Jesus, He convicts us, He comforts us. . . . . . But, God being one essence, three in person does not break the law of non contradiction. Remember, truth is subject to the actual laws of logic. It can't break the rules. Christianity is a REASONable faith. We can say in A God is unity. . . in B diversity. Now, you can be a father, and son at the same time, but you cannot be your own father. Not in the same relationship. Are you with me? I bet you would agree with me that the NT is full of paradox? No? Jesus saying you have to lose your life to find it. Die to live. . . Believe then see. . . What is a paradox? The prefix para means to come along side something. Jesus spoke in parables. He would give His message and then throw along side a story to illustrate the message. The root of paradox is from the word doxein. . . to seem, to appear It is important to understand this root and can be illustrated in the heresy of Docetism which came out of gnosticism.Same root word. Many Greeks could not understand the incarnation, they accepted the resurrection, but did not believe the divine could mingle with flesh. So, they said Jesus did not have a real physical body, but He seemed or appeared to have one. He was an illusion. They didn't deny He was God, they denied He came in the flesh, or was God in the flesh. Paradox, is something that at first glance appears to be a contradiction. But upon closer inspection is not. It is something we see all over the NT. The trinty is paradoxical, but not contradiction. It requires more than a first glance. It requires understanding language and its uses. Tertullian articulated the trinity with specific language and meaning.. .. . the church did struggle with its paradoxical nature, but not so much with the scriptural evidence of the trinity. That was what they persued understanding of. . . they saw the deity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit one with the Father. They understood from the OT the Lord your God is one God. They articulated the God of scripture through theology. . . .just like we do. Our attempt to explain the infinite. Understanding history is actually pretty complex. The who's, the thought processes of the day, the opposing schools of thought . . . how their understanding was reached. . . the use of words, personalities and such. The controversy goes much deeper in understanding than "the trinity was made up". Christianity is a monotheistic faith. The bible is clear. . . one Lord. . . we agree on this. We even agree on more than you think. You say the Holy Spirit is that PART of God, expressed to us. Here is what Tertullian articulated. God is one in essence three in person. Faithful to the clear teaching of scripture. You have to really veer from a clear understanding to deny this. In fact, you have to form a whole new theology, which is going to deny deity to Jesus and deny the personification of the Holy Spirit to make anything work. You lose the God of scripture. Essence comes from the word ousia which means being or substance. God is one essence, not a bunch of parts sent here and there. That would give Him more than one being. God is one being. Essence is essentially the stuff of God's one being. What makes you different from a cat? A cat different than a flower? A flower different than God? It is the essence, or stuff you are. We are talking about the essence of diety. That is a pretty heady topic.God is one in essence. When we use the word person, it comes from the word. . . Persona When Tertullian used it. . . it was different from our use. It was used in a legal sense or in the dramatic arts. It means mask (Like the twin masks of tragedy/comedy) or role. Masks fit over a face don't they? Other words are used instead of person that might help. Subsistence is one. Just to clarify, I do not mean poor or below par. Sub means under or below. . . and sistance. . . same root as existence right? . . . Existence means, to stand out of being, in the philosopical sense? God doesn't exist in the classical meaning of the word. He did not stand out of being. . . He is pure being. We exist. God is eternal but, subsistence would mean underneath the pure being of God. As we use it. Three subsistences underneath or below the pure being of God. Similar to what you say when you say that part of God. We need to distinguish between these subsistences. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is essential to do this, or you end up with nothing. God does it in scripture. Otherwise, it is empty and void. It is not the God of scripture.You end up rewriting the meaning of verses that are clear. . .and stripping God of His deity. When you add that great is the mystery of Godliness into the mix. . . it can get confusing. However, God does not speak in contradiction. It is not that God gets it and we just need to take it on faith, . . . . no. . . otherwise how could you trust anything He says. . . you would never know if it was your understanding. . . or "God" logic?? We could then take anything in the bible. . . say it means thus and just attribute it to "God" logic. Been there -- done that. . . . The Christian faith has no contradiction. Contradiction in relativism is the hallmark of truth. Not Christianity. Paradox and Mystery are something else. Musterion. The scripture has many mysteries. The mysterious nature of something does not anull the reality of it. If it did, modern science would disappear. We still don't know the complete nature of motion or time and the complete workings of gravity. There are elements still hidden from our understanding. Right? We still have gravity. I can't claim to fully comprehend the act of divine creation. That God, by the power of His words, spoke light into being? No finite mind can claim this. I cannot claim to grasp the totality of the infinite with the ability of a finite mind. We don't have a comprehensive knowledge of God. The finite cannot contain the infinite. A perfect knowledge of Him is beyond us. Now we know in part. . . . see in a mirror dimly. . . . Paul was fond of speaking of mysteries. The unfolding of mystery concerning the church. The inclusion of the gentiles, the second coming, the resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the mystery of Godliness. Remember, these things were hidden in the OT and revealed or unfolded in the NT. However, they are not fully comprehended. Finite mind, infinite God, we see through a glass darkly. At best, it is a progressive unfolding for our understanding from God Himself. There is still so much to learn and understand about God. Revealed or UNFOLDED in the NT is an elaboration of the Godhead. The nature of God. Yet, we cannot claim a comprehensive understanding of God. NONE of us can. A contradiction is unintelligable, yet, a mystery is something I don't now understand, but given more information, I may understand it. It unfolds. God Himself unfolds it for us.Gaining understanding shrinks the mystery, Mystery, paradoxically, is a legitimate part of knowledge and should provoke humility in us. Not breed arrogance.You and I stand before an infinite God. We don't KNOW all things. We can't wrap it up neatly in an abberant theology, while looking down on the very faith we claim. Remember, you believe in a vigin birth, the resurrection, and the miracles Jesus did. Explain How God raised Jesus from the dead for me? What was it He did. How was Jesus concieved? How did the blind man see? You can't explain how, but you believe He did by His power. Why is it so difficult to believe God is one essence three persona. You believe He reveals Himself in parts. He doesn't have more than one being? We BOTH believe in an invisible God. It is not a contradiction, it is a paradox. GREAT is the mystery of Godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit. . . recieved up into glory. Maybe most Christians don't misunderstand. . . . they understand all too well God is infinite and revealed.

Mark, Jews reject Jesus. You know what might be fun for you. . . . in all seriousness. . . speak about the Holy Spirit to a Messianic Jew who embraces the triune nature of God, and knows scripture well. Lots of them around. It would be another perspective and a learning experience if nothing else. You may have already done this. . . . but, they can explain to you the stumbling blocks, why the Jewish faith rejects Jesus, and expound on scripture and the Holy Spirit in a way that makes you want to sit at their feet and listen all night. Those who know Judaism and Orthodox Christianity. It is enlightening. Lots of Messianic fellowships around. :) If anyone is interested in the topic of the Holy Spirit from a more traditional understanding. . . ."The Holy Spirit, His Gifts and Power Puritan John Owen wrote one of the best studies on the Holy Spirit over three hundred years ago. Owen explores the biblical portrait of the Spirit, showing us how He indwells all believers to equip them for service, love one another, and empower them to defeat sin in their lives." Some of the Puritans are really fun to read.

You know what they say WD. . . the best defense against libel is. . . . drumroll. . . tell the truth! :) Repeat after me. . . limited public figure. . . extra burden of proof. . . a falsehood with malice. It is not defamation if it is true. . . it doesn't have to proven in a court to be true. . . VP made himself a public figure. . . our dear father in the word. . . we all got burned one way or another. The man of God for our day and time. Oh my goodness. . . I was in a cult.

I love this. I have come to the conclusion while posting here, that we all do this in differing ways. I have come to respect the New Agers, and the atheists a great deal here. . . even some Pagans :) because in many ways it shows a real movement well beyond TWI. As a Christian I had to really examine what I believed, but it is an ongoing process. Life is learning. . . . not stagnant. I take the view God is big enough to learn about forever, and still not know completely. But, that is MY journey. . . others are different. Diversity is a GOOD thing. Keeps you on your toes!! That really was a toxic theology though. Learned responses and tactics. . . obfiscating. . . always being the "true household" of God. . . looking down on the very faith we tried to co-op. Fascinating.

Good for you cman. . . told ya Mark. . . on your toes! They can make a strong case. I will stick with Christianity though. . . :)

Who says you can't claim guilt in public comment? This is a made up standard you have set for everyone else here. There is no law that says we can't make a statement of guilt. Where is that law we are being held to?? There is no law that says we can't know something to be true unless a guilty verdict is rendered. There are no mind police stopping us from deciding for ourselves the truth of a matter. For some of us, credibility and eye witness accounts supporting each other, mingled with our own personal experience, are enough to decide what is true. If it makes you feel better to call it "just" an opinion. . . do so. . . call it FRED if you like. Doesn't make it so. . . just makes it what YOU want to call it. It in no way negates the reality behind the conclusion. I don't really think I want to hear the other side of rape or drugging. It is pretty self-evident it is an evil and criminal act. The act speaks for itself. Loudly. Now, if you are calling peoples accounts into question as to truthfulness. . . just say so. Quit hiding behind all this legalese.

I won't get into an argument; as you say, it is pointless. But I wanted to point out that I already dealt with those issues in the article which I have presented in my previous posts. Mark, this actually IS argument, but fine. From my perspective, it is a weak argument. What can I say. From the perspective of orthodox theology. . . . it is rejected. We actually SEE something different. First of all, the long section you quoted from Come Let Us Reason was arguing against the holy spirit being an impersonal force as the JW's believe, or a mode as the Oneness Pentecostals believe. Neither of these is the position I am presenting. No, you are espousing some form of modalism. Not a new heresy. If you know your history, which you once advised me to learn, you know what the discussion was about between Arius and Alexander and you know what Sabellianism is. This is actually the same argument settled 100's of yeas ago. It is actually what Arius got miffed about. He was an argumentitive man. Secondly, every one of those verses can be understood as God speaking, moving, acting, guiding, giving revelation, etc., by way of His Spirit. Not one of them proves that the Holy Spirit is a separate person from God. Mark, weak argument. They can be understood anyway you choose, but what are they actually revealing? A person with distinct identity. You have to come to it with NO preconcieved bias and humble yourself and let it speak to YOU. Not the other way around. You are so busy explaining God, you are missing Him revealing Himself. These verses reveal a distinct personality. God can be a trinity. You just can't accept that He is. I never said He was seperate from God. . . He is God. . . One God. Seperate from the Father, and the Son. . . not from God. Distinct person within the Godhead. You need to understand how they work in concert to be one God. . . or it just stymies you. It does fit together beautifully, One God. As I pointed out in the article, a person can speak of his spirit or his soul in the same way: Of course we can speak of ourselves the same way. . . . we are made in His image. We are a trinity. Would anyone say that these verses prove that "Me" and "My Spirit" are two different people? Or "Me" and "My Soul"? Of course not. Consider this verse: Gen. 45:12 - "And, behold, your eyes see, and the eyes of my brother Benjamin, that it is my mouth that speaketh unto you." Is Benjamin's mouth a separate person from Benjamin? Obviously not. "My mouth speaks to you" is simply another way of saying, "I speak to you." Nor is the Lord's mouth a separate person from the Lord: Mark, I didn't use these verses because they do not reveal the distinct and separate entity of the Holy Spirit. Just because one does and the other doesn't . . . . doesn't mean they cancel each other out. They don't negate the reality of the Holy Spirit revealed as having mind, will, and self-identity.. . . it isn't even a good reasoned argument. It is superfical, do you think Christians don't understand language and lit? Is your body the same as your spirit, is your mind the same as your body? They are distinct yet make up the one who you are. . . no? Do they interact in concert with each other to make up one Mark. . . in theory in perfect unity? Diverse yet in unity. Are they all you? One Mark? When you die Mark, will your body remain but your spirit depart? Will your mind be with your body in death? Do your body and mind have the same will? Mine sure don't. . . my mind tells me I am 21. . . my body says "ahhhh, hang on a minute". God is one Mark. Distinct seperate three persons. . . one God. Jos 9:14 And the men took of their victuals, and asked not counsel at the mouth of the LORD. 1Ki 13:21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee, To disobey the mouth of the Lord is to disobey the commandments that the Lord spoke. Nobody would argue that the Lord's mouth is a separate person. The spirit of the Lord is no different. In fact in two different parallel passages, the power of God is described as both the spirit and the finger of the Lord. The Spirit of the Lord is no different than His mouth or finger? Hmmm, I would say there might be a difference. Matt. 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. The Spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit, is a way of speaking about the means by which God interacts with the world. The "finger of God" is another way of saying the same thing. You certainly wouldn't consider the Finger of God to be a person. Just as I can speak of my soul longing, or my heart desiring (and it means that I long and desire), so referring to God's Spirit saying and doing things is a way of speaking about God saying and doing them. You just gave Him a voice. You just made Him distinct. A WAY of speaking. A way of doing. . . the problem you have is He is described as another-who reveals Jesus. Distinct-with will, mind, personality and duties. He can be grieved, blasphemed, He decides, He imparts, He communicates, He resides within us. The Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit. Not the finger of God. You have to really embrace modalism to see it your way. What happens when you do this. . . . is that you lose God. You miss it. The interaction of God within Himself. . . it is stunning. God is a trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Distinct, yet within each other in perfect community and love as ONE God. Can't get around it. Unity with diversity, it is everywhere in creation if you have eyes to see. You are a family . . . one family. . . distinct members. The church. . . many members, each with their own office or duty or talent or gift. . . one body. It is all there. You asked, "is the devil a person, or a force or power?" He is a person. Again, I am not claiming that God is not a person. I am saying that the person of God communicates and interacts with the universe, and with people specifically, by way of what is called His Holy Spirit. YEP But it is not a separate person from God Himself. If it were, "he" would have sent greetings to the church, and as a co-equal and co-eternal person, would have been included in those verses I quoted that refer to the Father and the Son. Says who? That is a very weak argument. Especially given the personality of the Holy Spirit. He is meek. Fruit of the Spirit, come from the Holy Spirit. . . love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Breath, oil to annoint, a dove. Why a dove? Those poor who could not afford a lamb. . . brought two doves to the temple. God accepted two doves from the poor. Does that not speak to your heart about who the Holy Spirit is? Not to say He is weak. . . He did appear as fire. Mark there is so much there to see. I love the Holy Spirit. Makes my knees weak. You said, "He is Spirit. . . but a person is self identified, has a mind, a will, distinct entity." That is exactly the problem. When you speak of the Holy Spirit as a person that "is self identified, has a mind, a will, distinct entity," and then you say that this person is God, you now have two "persons" who are God. And Jesus makes three. And the whole idea of three persons, but still one God, just doesn't fit with logic or the Scriptures. God is always presented as ONE person. Hear O Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD is ONE. Jesus quoted and corroborated the Shema, and nowhere in the Bible can "one" ever be shown to mean "three in one." He is shown as three in one. The Lord is ONE. You don't see it and you have found "another" explanation. Your mind rebells at this, I know. Hard to accept, once denied so vehemently. Because you deny it, you miss how God is one. It is there and THAT is what captivates our hearts and ravishes our souls. That is how we learn about how God is love. Still, I don't expect you to change your mind. If I could get you to understand just one thing, it would be that this belief is not the product of a few cult-influenced teachers. All throughout history, there have been many respected Bible scholars who have understood these things. They may be in the minority, but they are not just in cults like TWI. Remember the quote I had in the article? Alan Richardson, in his Introduction to the Theology of the New Testament (London: SCM Press, 1958, p. 120), desribes the holy spirit like this: Mark, are you kidding me? I was in a Christ denying cult for a very good part of my adult life. There is a Christian world that you don't begin to comprehend. I have believed BOTH ways. I know the fruit of false teaching. It is an empty faith. I am not trying to be rude. I promise you, I really like you. In fact, I believe you are hungry for the things of God. But, I have to be honest here. There are no Christian theologians who deny the scriptures in favor of heresy. This is how we distinguish the two. Orthodoxy. Which simply means right. It is not orthodox because we don't get it. . . .we are not mean when we use the word heresy. . . it is just an unacceptable because it opposes scripture. It may sound "intellectual" to you. . . but I could give you a hundred books refuting modalism. It then becomes endless debates over words. Does that sound familar at all? You said, "When I look at things now. . . no preconceived bias. . . I read history and see the trinity was already known. . ." But looking at the Scriptures to explain the Trinity IS preconceived bias. It is not explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible, and the only way ANYONE has even heard of the Trinity is because somebody taught them about it. Mark, the word bible is not in the bible. . . Trinity is just a word to describe what is revealed about God in scripture. It is there which is why we can see and understand it. . . explaining it is a different matter . . . unless one has the eyes to see. You have parroted this response before. Doesn't make it true. If you keep saying that no one would see it revealed in scripture unless taught. . . you discount 100's of years of great Christian thinkers and you discount the many of us EX-TWI who have come to this position once opposed, by simply praying and reading. It is just not a true statement. It sounds like a programmed response. But still, as you said, it's pointless to argue. I just wanted to point out that I'd already dealt with those arguments, and to clarify what I believe to be the Biblical understanding of God's Holy Spirit. I also wanted to point out that the belief in God as One Person is held by more and more Bible scholars, and not the wild idea of a cult. No Mark, it is the God of the cults. Google it :) LOL Just kidding. God is able and does deliver. I know you desire Him over a system of belief. I have every confidence in Him. .. carry on telling us how God is not known or understood by 2000 years of Christianity and VP was wrong, but now you have it right. . . . sorry for the disrupt. Just remember, we are finite trying to define infinite. . . . doesn't wrap up in a neat little package... . And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Mark, If you got through that last post you are a trooper, but just a bit more that may help you understand the orthodox theology of the Holy Spirit. I am sure you are familar with Perichoresis. "The relationship of the Triune God is intensified by the relationship of perichoresis. This indwelling expresses and realizes fellowship between the Father and the Son. It is intimacy. Jesus compares the oneness of this indwelling to the oneness of the fellowship of his church from this indwelling. "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us." (John 17:21)" The Holy Spirit is kinda the one who makes this happen. There is so much revealed in scripture about how God is glorified within Himself. The absolute intimacy and pefection of fellowship within the Godhead. It can render one jelly. Makes your knees go weak. But, without some kind of belief in or understanding of the Godhead. . . none of it is going to work for you. We love Him because He first loved us. . . that is in relationship. . . love is known in relation to something. God is love. He didn't become Love. . . He is love. He is in relationship within the Godhead. The church is about unity in relationship. Being one. Everything is about relationship. . . cetainly when it comes to love. God is a happy God. . . Happy and overflowing within Himself. . . outside of His creation. Not complicated when you start looking and considering scripture. I know you reject it, but I just wanted to clarify for you. When I look at things now. . . no preconceived bias. . . I read history and see the trinity was already known. . . clarified and established in creed, not invented. Perichoresis was explored by John of Damascus not invented. I too see these things in scripture. :) Did you ever stop to ask yourself what it is we are filled with and baptised in? Mind blowing.

Mark, I know we don't agree on who the Holy Spirit is. . . but I wanted to clarify a few things for you. I know you have your understanding. . . not looking for an argument, it is pointless, but you do seem to have this person thing a bit mixed up. It helps to understand that which you argue against. No offense, but you do seem to twist it in explanation. I get that you can't wrap your head around it. . . that is fine. It is interesting to note though, that while some argue over gender, most do not argue personhood. BTW, if these guys wanted to. . . they could make a very good case that the Holy Spirit is female. Gotta be on your toes!! We see the same thing soooo differently. But, it is there to see if you want to. Or not. Not too complicated really. The reason we call the Holy Spirit a person is not because He is embodied, or a human being. . . He is Spirit. . . but a person is self identified, has a mind, a will, distinct entity. Hate to use this analogy, but is the devil a person, or a force or power? Scripture does reveal the Holy Spirit with certain personal qualities. YES He is God, but He is distinct and personified in scripture. Dictinct from the Father, and Jesus. Remember, Jesus said He would send another. Although, if you don't believe Jesus is God this won't mean much to you. Let me give you some examples of why we believe as we do. I know you have your faith's explanation for these, but this is the orthodox or accepted theology. Orthodox simply means right. :) And before you write us off as "misguided" or doing the"best" we can. . . LOL consider, not all Christians are ignorant and unlearned. There is a whole field of theological study called pneumatology and some very gifted scholars have studied the scriptures. Most of them. . . not ever in heretical cults. The Holy Spirit has a mind ( Romans 8:27).The Holy Spirit helped to settle questions during the Church Council at Jerusalem Acts 15:28 The Holy Spirit dispenses gifts to different individuals according as He wills Corinthians 12:8-11 The Holy Spirit forbade some from going to preach in certain places 16:6-7The Holy Spirit anointed Jesus and sent Him out to preach the gospel (see Luke 4:18-19); In fact, both the Father and the Holy Spirit sent Jesus (see Isaiah 48:16). The Holy Spirit testifies or witnesses of Jesus John 15:26. The Holy Spirit leads God’s people Romans 8:14. The Holy Spirit teaches and causes us to remember the truth John 14:26 The Holy Spirit comforts us as does Christ John 14:16. The Holy Spirit strives with us Genesis 6:3. The Holy Spirit reproves us of sin, righteousness, and judgment John 16:8-11. The Holy Spirit instructs us Nehemiah 9:20.The Holy Spirit speaks, guides, hears and shows John 16:13-15.The Holy Spirit speaks, chooses, calls and sends forth Acts 13:1-4. The Holy Spirit gives messages to prophets and they declare: “Thus saith the Holy Ghost” Acts 21:11.The Holy Spirit has knowledge, and searches all things (see 1 Corinthians 2:10-11). The Holy Spirit sanctifies us Romans 15:16. The Holy Spirit holds communion with us 2 Corinthians 13:14; and so does Christ 1 Corinthians 1:9. The Holy Spirit is the source of regeneration and renewal for salvation John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5. The Holy Spirit resurrects the faithful from the dead Romans 8:11; 1 Peter 3:18. The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible and moved upon the prophets to speak 2 Peter 1:21. The Holy Spirit is another Comforter other than Christ John 14:16. The Holy Spirit helps our infirmities Romans 8:26. The Holy Spirit can be tempted and lied to see Acts 5:3, 9. The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed and sinned against Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10; Matthew 12:31. From Come Let us Reason. .. "The main purpose of the Holy Spirit was to come alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles. He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim, or a mode as in Oneness Pentecostalism, then He cannot be another of the same kind. Jesus is a person, if the Spirit is another comforter this requires the Spirit to be a person also. How could He duplicate all the things of Jesus unless He is a person? The helper in Gr. paracletos, is used to describe the Spirit in the New Testament by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identityLooking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus. Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints," 1 Cor.2:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills. Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" If the Spirit is impersonal so is the Bride. The activities of the Spirit are all descriptions of what persons do. Many groups come to the irrational and illogical conclusion that he is only a force used by the Father to accomplish his purposes. This power the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim is impersonal like an artificial intelligence that will accomplish Gods will in our lives. Romans 8.16: The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. To make the Holy Spirit something other than a personality a being (a force?) This means that we are indwelt with a human non personality. This means we have no inner nature that rules over our body, that all we are is our body just like the evolutionists say. Paul uses the spirit Gr. pnuema as The masculine pronoun He , giving him identity. The Holy Spirit is portrayed as a personal being with an identity different then both the Father and the Son. He is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. As we understand that the nature of the Father and Son and Spirit have always been the same, they are all eternal. They all share in common the same essence, which is God. They also share in the divine name of Yahweh. All the attributes of God that are held in common with the Father and Son are shared also with the Holy Spirit. He has omnipresence Ps.139:7-10 David writes whether he goes up to heaven or into hell below God is there, he cannot escape his Spirit. He is omnipresent, everywhere since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously.( 3 omnis are described in this passage omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience all attributes of God). The essence of the Holy Spirit is that he is omniscient- all knowing 1 Cor.2:10-11: "For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." Only God can comprehend God himself, he knows things of God and things we do not know of ourselves. There are scriptures that refer to the Holy Spirit as being the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Spirit of Christ", or "Spirit of the Son" "the Spirit of the Father" If the Son and Father are persons then this certainly does not make the Spirit a non person." My favorite, John 14:26 where you have all three. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Job 32:8 - But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. John 15:26 - When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. John 16:5-15 - 5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. John 3:5-7 - 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' John 6:63 - The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Ephesians 2:1-5 - 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Ephesians 1:13-14 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of his glor Romans 8:9-10 - 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 1 Corinthians 6:19 - Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own. Ephesians 2:22 - And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 - 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:12-13 - 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Ephesians 1:17-18 - 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints. Galatians 5:25 - Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-23 - 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 - 9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" — 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Psalm 139:7-8 - 7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. Genesis 1:1-2 - 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Psalm 104:30 - When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. Job 33:4 - The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Luke 1:35 - The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Romans 8:11 - And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Hmmmm, I think I asked you how do you know I didn't. It was to cause you to consider that you make a great deal of assumption about truth everyday. NOT to make a false claim that I did. Twist, twist, twist, where have I seen this tactic before? Where? Wait. . . it is coming to me. . . hang on. . . OH YEAH! Now I remember. Twisted scripture. . . it is a learned tactic. . . just like the endless debates over words. Shame on me for even trying to make a point to you. I know better. . .

Definition of extortion.. .. Unlawful exaction of money or property through intimidation or undue exercise of authority. It may include threats of physical harm, criminal prosecution, or public exposure. Some forms of threat, especially those made in writing, are occasionally singled out for separate statutory treatment as blackmail. To gain by wrongful methods; to obtain in an unlawful manner, as in to compel payments by means of threats of injury to person, property, or reputation. To exact something wrongfully by threatening or putting in fear. The natural meaning of the word extort is to obtain money or other valuable things by compulsion, by actual force, or by the force of motives applied to the will, and often more overpowering and irresistible than physical force. Comes pretty close to it. I don't know all the ins and outs of the Waydale case. . . the Allens. . . but I do remember reading something about the Rico Statute being part of it???? Maybe???? That is racketeering.

Well, WD thanks so much for your permission. I don't NEED it. Nor does anyone here. You drew inference from my posts. In turn, I have done the same. Rascal is quite credible. You would make a lousy lawyer. . . judges smell BS a mile away. They also don't tolerate fools lightly. To add: CRIMES are prosecuted in a courtroom, anyone can lay the charge of a crime at someones feet. He parked in the handicap spot and walked into the store just fine. . . he doesn't have a sticker. . . that is a crime!!!!!!!!!

How do YOU know I "Want" to??? My posts? Did you read my posts and draw conclusions based on what is written? How do you know I have not submitted Rascal to a lie detector test?? What DO you really know? You know what does it for me about VP. . . he fondled MY backside and told me what beautiful. . . well, not feet, I had. Now, since I was one of many young innocent girls paraded by him. . . I am thinking I was not alone. The man was a PIG! WD it is true. . . believe or don't . . .

Yeah but Rascal, it was never PROVEN in a court of law where the standard of innocent until proven guilty is ACTUALLY used. So, that means you can't SAY they were crimes. Where this is stated other than in WD's posts is beyond me?? Of course you can say something is criminal. . . . it is in our vernacular. . . "What so and so did was criminal". Oh yeah, libel laws. . . . okay, well libel is when you tell a FALSEHOOD about someone and malign their character. So, the best defense against THAT is to tell the truth. Which you do. So, you are covered. . . . EXCEPT. . . in WD's mind. It isn't worth it. It is a joke. You would have to suspend all reason, critical thinking, and pull out the good old "lock box". Oh yeah, we have already done that. . . . it is called The Way International. Same tactic. . . . different use. Keep ya quiet. . . idols might fall and fall hard.