geisha779

No a fire drill is no big deal and can be required by law. . . the whole hands dodge em aspect was what got me. . . making us stand under the lights. . . and then the spewing the next day about how inept and unspiritual we all were. It bordered on the inane. Didn't take us long to exit. . . we all used the right way to go out. . . it was such a joke.

So Skyrider. . . curious about something. What the heck WERE those 2:30 AM fire drills all about. Because I have to tell you. . . they pulled that garbage on my dorm during my advanced class at Emporia. Here we are, standing out front under the lights in less than footed pajama's. . . exposed for the world to see. Crowds around. . . I was trying to hide behind those with more clothing. . . I was not alone. Then the next day.. . . . we were screamed at by JAL about how it took us over 5 minutes to exit and we would all be dead right now if there had really been a fire. It didn't take us too long, but someone was timing us. . . What a mind game. I remember looking at him up there "Spewing" and thinking to myself. . . I shouldn't be here. Not to mention having to physically hit a Corps guy who would not stop touching me. He was trying to "Bless Me" and I needed to lighten up. I was half-dressed. . . chilly. . . and just woken from a sound sleep. I wonder how many times people had to endure that? Once, was enough for me.

I have to say WD, after your last post to me. . . . I have really learned something. This is exactly how we fell for and defended TWI's convoluted and weak explanations of controversial doctrines and scripture. Arguing incessantly over words. . . trying to give them new definitions and meanings. That is how we missed the most basic and obvious understanding of scripture. Legalese which really was a TWISTING of their intent and meaning. That is how we missed the revelation of God in scripture. We could never let the words speak to us. . . we spoke for the words. It is a bad mindset if you are searching for the hidden things of God. They remain hidden. I take it you still think VP actually taught you the bible? Rightly divided word? Go back, and with open eyes read your twisted understanding of law. Then take that revelation and with new eyes, apply it to how you read the bible. . . . . You will have some great deliverance. I wish you well with it. . . it is a good chance for you to wake up! And just to add: I actually have spent a great deal of time in courtrooms and with lawyers. . . DA's . . . and judges. . . I advocate for prisoners. They read the letters I write. . . right at the bench and consider them when rendering a verdict. More than once, I have gotten a judge to change their mind on something, by simply testifying to a few simple truths. You are clueless how things really work.

Testimony is not proof of anything?? Except it is admissable in a court of law as evidence. That is what testimony is. . . . proof!!!!!! This is just getting beyond ridiculous now. What court in the country does not accept testimony as evidence to prove guilt. No court says it is an undocumented collection of words. .. . until proven. . . OMGosh. . . that is why people TESTIFY under oath and the penalty of perjury. Get a clue. You don't testify an accusation, you testify to information relating TO the accusation as PROOF of guilt or innocence. Occasionaly testimony is all a Judge has to make a decision. . . guess what? It ends up. . . . based on testimony. . .

Well, for me. . . I didn't want to go to church because most churches said I had to change my wicked ways. Not too many in TWI told me I couldn't do what I wanted. God loved me and grace covered. . . I knew the magic words. . . in the name of Jesus. I heard "over and over" again how the churches had their idolatry and wrong understanding. . . But, I already knew that. . . I was God's best, special, elite, chosen to hear the only truth, super hero, who replaced Jesus and if I believed hard enough could raise the dead. . . child. However, I could rarely buy food as a WOW. It did appeal to the intellect. . . and ego, but not much heart transformation. At least not for me. . . I was special. We knew the word. . . Jesus was absent. . . and while the cat is away. . . . the mouse takes over. PFAL provided me with an identity. . . God's best. . . . If that was the best He could do. . . . we are all in trouble. . . higher up you were. .. the "Better" you were. Why. . . . . just look at the top of the tree.

ROFLM . . . OFF!! Can't argue with that logic. Well, let me rephrase that. You can't successfully argue with that logic. . . can try and probably will try. . . are different matters all together.

Or they went in mild mannered and within 6 months turned into complete jerks. That happened too. People you really liked, changed right before your eyes. That is one of the reasons hubby left Emporia. . . well, that and of course ME. He said it was the begining of the end. Opened his eyes to alot of messed up things. One minute they are your friend the next in your face. But, they were the ones who moved on up the chain of command, you are right.

Oh Twinky, I am so very sorry. I am truly sorry. Chubby, our cat also had a stroke and we too had to put him to sleep. The same thing. back legs not working. I found him under the lilac bush. So, I know how difficult this all has been. I actually sit here with tears. What a comfort they are. My son just left home and he is the last to go. . . I have been a bit lost and my cats have not left my side. They know when we need them. He was a beautiful animal and you can tell from the pictures he was full of personality. Now, what did he think he was going to do in the dishwasher!?! I can't even tell you how much I understand how important they become to us. We, the crazy "Cat people." The only time I was without a cat was the time I was in TWI and that seemed forever. Wishing I could offer more comfort to you. I am sending my love and prayers your way.

I don't know about this Jeff? That sin was paticular to those witnessing JESUS doing those miracles by the power of God, and by saying it was of Beelzebub. I don't know how that translates into those confronting TWI practices to blaspheming The Holy Spirit. In fact, I am pretty sure it doesn't. That is quite a judgement to make. Assuming quite a bit too. One, assuming The Holy Spirit was at work in the lives of those doing the confronting. Two, assuming not heeding that reproof is blasphemy. If you take a look at the word blasphemy, it looks like a sin of speech. Which is why you hear people say taking the Lord's name in vain is blasphemous. It is much more frightening to think of what we said about the Jesus of the church. That His name was actually a devil spirit. That actually IS calling someone of the devil. Quite a leap of faith in ones own view to take, don't you think? We worship Jesus in the church. TWI called that idolatry. They then took it further and said Jesus' name used by Christians of the church(Their distinction). . . who we know as Lord. . . was really a devil. IMHO THAT is how they teetered on the edge. These people who did this. . . are not beyond salvation. It will take the power of God. No one will be delivered on their own. . . but, you can still pray for them. . . even if it hurts.

I don't know about the offshoots or the offshoots-splinters, :) but, I do remember TWI speaking of George Mueller. Made the book a must read. I am glad I kept it. Funny, it was in relation to believing God's provision, and the orphanges were mentioned, but it was not in relation to provision in service to others. At least outside the "Household." I housed and sponsored enough people to know it was inside the group. ABS was a good illustration of that as well. How did we make that disconnect so easily? John Wesley's practical piety was really distorted, into this odd no debt, subsistence standard of living for the ministry. John Wesley realized that he had foolishly spent money on something useless and had none left to buy a coat for a cold maid. Hardly what we were led to understand. Money continually flowing inward to shore up the lifestyle of self-proclaimed ministers is not the same thing as charity and alms for the poor. "Let thine alms sweat into thine hands until thou knowest to whom thou art giving." wasn't real big with TWI or its offshoots. . . at least in practical terms. You have to ask yourself. . . when does all this great "Special" knowledge . . . . known from these unique teaching ministries. . . . . ever really see the light of day?

You are right potato, and I make no value judgement when I use that word. How could I, I believed the same way for years. It would be a bit hypocritical on my part. When I mentioned studying different heresies it was in relation to herisology. A theological study. It is in no way a personal indictment or pejorative. If you saw that, I am sorry. The idea or term does come from WITHIN an established Orthodoxy. Maybe, I should use the word. . . non-conformist. Sounds better. :) It is an historical study on my part, not a contemporary study. I am interested in history. That is my degree. That is all I meant. Hope it is okay!

I am not too familar with the offshoots. I went to see JAL speak once at a friends house, and it was too up close and personal for me. I have a long memory and I have seen his less than gentle side at work. Besides, there was this hyperactive almost unhinged vibe. . . with a plastic smile stuck on for good measure. It was shortly after we left and I was learning to trust my own instincts. It reeked of TWI. What I wonder is if any of these offshoots have praise or worship, in the more traditional meaning? Not just "manifestations" which are fairly rigid. Is any of their "outreach" service or community orientated? It is difficult to do this when you don't think of yourself as a servant, but as elite. What always breaks my heart is that those of us who left, have such a difficult time finding a home within the church. We sit at a distance in our own groups. I know why this is, but if we let controversial doctrine separate us. . . are we truly one body? I don't think it is an intentional scam. . . I really don't. It is just a different doctrine, teaching, understanding, and faith. This is just my opinion, which means little. . . . but it is centered around teaching because this faith is centered around a book. The words in the book. The private interpretation of the meaning. This constantly has to be reinforced. It is faith in a book and one's understanding of the book. Hence, the constant teaching. That is just my take. Teaching and learning are a big part of the Christian life, but it so much more than that, and service is not to a paticular group, but to our fellow man. That just might mean those of a different faith. It gets messy sometimes, you have to get in there with the downtrodden, prisoners, and hurting. We actually have to roll up our sleeves and feed and clothe and possibly wash some feet! :) All the while expecting nothing in return. Not even a signed green card. Funny how the love bombing stopped when the class was over. Real genuine. I don't know. . . but if the teaching ceased for awhile. . . what would be left? Fellowship within the same small groups? Isolation? People might actually read the book and see for themselves what it means, without someone constantly telling them "no" it just says that, it means this! Just my opinion. Others may vary or have valid points from their own perspective. This is from mine.

I would agree with you Tzaia, it is not overt, rather some might called it revealed. Some call it searching the scriptures . . . some call it made up. I was thinking today about theology and this thread. . . and other discussions. I was thinking about how you describe something. Say the color blue to a blind man who has never known color. You would have to come up with words and concepts he could relate to. TWI did us a great wrong with such a narrow view of understanding God and scripture. It is crazy, we are speaking of describing a hidden, infinite, eternal, pure being. May get wordy. May get messy! :) I have grown to love theology. I can relate the ideas and concepts and understanding of what I, me, mine, see.. . . . paints a picture with words. I really enjoy it. Used to think it was the devil's handiwork. But then again, I used to think devil spirits lived in certain books and every third human being I encountered. If we shy away from controversial doctrine. . . nothing left. . . it is all controversial. I also love to look at the paticular heresies from a historical perspective. . . cultural influences.. . I think I might be a geek.

I am not trying to define anyones beliefs. . . or lump them together. . . I drew a distinction. . . I understand there is a slight variation between the groups. Perhaps they are more similar than different, but I still was just trying to define them in theological terms. . . and rather loosely at that. That is what "I think" means and "kinda/sorta" and "similar" mean. I do know it matters to you and I was trying to be respectful. Thanks again for correcting me.

That IS very secific isn't it? LOL Do you remember what they said about the angel of the Lord in the OT accounts? I really don't remember anymore. Maybe that is a good sign! All my books and notes went into a dumpster in Winston-Salem NC. . . .

Gee, Mark, maybe that is why I said. . . kinda/sorta. I wasn't trying to pigeonhole an EXACT belief system, but use theological terms Brushstroke is probably familar with. They are all similar but in differing ways. I assumed he understood it to be Arianism. Thanks so much for "correcting" me. I don't recall TWI teaching about a preincarnate Christ.

Jeff, You should read some Martyr stories. . . that will put it in perspective reeeeaaaaal fast. I am speaking of martyrs in this past century. Really, it will make you consider what real faith is. . . powerful. This book is for teens, but I could barely get through it. https://www1.vombooks.com/qry/qe_store.taf?...53574db7a565e55 Jesus Freaks dc Talk & The Voice of the Martyrs The contemporary Christian music group dc Talk has reached thousands of teens worldwide with their music. Richard Wurmbrand and The Voice of the Martyrs have reached thousands both young and old with the message of today’s persecuted church. dc talk and VOM bring you Jesus Freaks: Stories of Those Who Took a Stand for Jesus—a collection of worldwide testimonies, targeting teens across America with the message of the uncompromising persecuted church. Many of the almost 150 personal testimonies and quotes were taken from VOM archives. Teens in your youth group, home or community will come face to face with a conquering Savior who is able to carry them through any situation in life. Just as Christ called us to reach all nations, we are also to teach all generations what it means to live for Christ.

I am not sure about STFI but TWI could kinda/sorta be termed Dynamic Monarchianism. It seems STFI is similar in their beliefs.. .. similar I think to the JW's and Christadelphians if any of that helps. I went to see JAL once after I left TWI. . . that was enough. I never liked him in TWI. . . he embarassed me at Emporia from the podium during lunch. That was special.

Well said. .. really well said.

With the added burden of malice in telling a falsehood. Limited public figure. . . Carol Burnett aside, it rarely EVER happens.

Rascal, You are right in all you said. I know. I also know that they stole so much from us. I hope one day you can seperate TWI. . . from the scriptures and just enjoy reading it for the sheer pleasure of it. But, I also hear you loud and clear. . . people CAN make it say what ever they want. . . that is why the Holy Spirit is so important. He is gentle and unobtrusive. . . and kind. Patient too and can teach you in your life. You are right. . . God is able to do it within what you can tolerate. He knows you inside and out. Even as God forgives us. . . we have to somehow begin to forgive ourselves.

Mark, it appears you have the idea that speculating one's way into an ancient Jewish worldview (some of which involved rank Christ-less unbelief) is some magic decoder ring for understanding Scripture. I don't like being blunt, but I don't think you are hearing me. You are right, I don't really care to look into these paticular beliefs. But, how blithely and conveniently you discount the verses and theology I have posted for you thus far. . . . as if your weak exegisis has somehow disposed of it. Again, and for the final time. Theology is not a bad thing. . . . it is our way of explaining God. You have a theology. . . But, you are absolutely right. I don't really care about what you see in the bible. Your theology doesn't move me. It is yours and reveals your relationship with God. . . not mine. . . and I wouldn't care what you said EXCEPT. . . . You pass such sweeping judgement on the entire church. It amazes me. So, you are right this is what bothers me more. . . I guess you fancy yourself some kind of modern day reformer. I didn't catch that before. But, it might surprise you why it bothers me. The church can take it. . . it is an ancient heresy. Been around for centuries. It bothers me because I don't want you to have to answer for this. You do the same thing the JW's do. . . Satan has tricked the church with the trinity. Nothing new. . . under the sun. . . I have compassion for you. I think it is dangerous waters. What I believe is. . . .our perception of issues related to the Trinity and the hypostatic union greatly influence how we read the Bible. Don't you agree? Our very understanding of scripture. It affects our interpretation of many passages and it affects the application we draw from those passages. Which brings me to my point. . . it is so often expressed on these forums...The disparity between those of the church and those in the cults. You see it articulated often here. "I went to church, and the people seem to really have something. . . ." "Too bad they don't know correct doctrine." I always find it ironic we don't make the connection, but still sit from a distance that is created by our aberrant understanding of scripture. By their fruit they are known. . . . . . connected to the vine. . . . by the love they have for one another. You even called it their character. . .God alive in the hearts of men and women in the church. . . again, they KNOW Him. They have an intimate and personal LOVE relationship with Him. Some DIE for Him. These are the people you judge as not knowing God. The very ones who belong to Him. Not good for you. . . . . You asked about my study and journey. Doesn't really matter. I have had some pretty lucky breaks, gone to some pretty good schools. . met some pretty smart people, but in the end. . . it is God who makes Himself known to us. . . He enlightens. He and He alone is due the glory. . . not my study. . . not my ability. . . not my knowledge of Hebrew culture. If you are depending on your own ability. . . hang it up now. It will fail you. Come, let us reason together. . . you and God together. . . reason these things out. Love is in relationship. . . when you love Him with all your mind. . . it is in relationship. . . He is part of that. Thanks for your time.

Might surprise you, but, yeah probably they do. However, it does get a bit dodgey after that.

Spoiler alert: They side with Arius and vilify the church fathers. I would like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

Mark, Please don't be concerned or puzzled. It is just your assumption that I don't think what the bible says is more important. Your understanding constitutes your reality. I really don't know many Christians other than those like Dave Hunt (The Berean Call) who get down on Catholics too much. I went to a Mass this past summer. I really enjoyed it and the message was great. I can look past the Mary statues and saints. . . it was really kind of nice. We went with my sister-in-law. We are very close to her. . . and she is shhhhhhh (a catholic). I guess to sum up what bothers me. . . is the sweeping pronouncment and ringing judgements you make, based soley on your own understanding of scripture and limited exposure to the church. It is quite a feat. You might just be wrong. Remember, I have believed both ways. You seem to forget that. Hate to burst your bubble, but we have some pretty smart Christians who know Hebrew, OT, and Judaism pretty well. Sorry to tell you. . . we even have Hebrew scholars. BUT. . . Mark, there are Christians in this world. . . . who have PARTS of a bible. . . passed from town to town. . . tattered and worn. . . and they know more about God than you and I ever will. Christianity is a heart matter, you can think you have it ALL figured out, and God will pull that little rug right out from under you. I am astounded that from your little place in the world, you have decided the entire Church is tricked and just plain wrong about something so personal and so real and alive within them. All because you see the bible the right way now. Amazing ability. . . how many years were you in seminary? What I find more ironic, is that you are correcting the last group you were in that had it all right, but are now wrong on what you decide they are. I bet you used to say the bible said something different. In fact, I know you did. You changed your mind? Bet you were so sure before? No? We are finite. . . limited in explaining the infinite. Finite cannot contain infinite. When we think we have. . . . we usually are tricked. I know you love God. . . that is enough for me. . . my faith is not in my own ability, but in His. . . if I couldn't even read. . . He would make a way for me to know Him. If He makes Himself known. . . . He does not lie. The church knows God. It is His church.