geisha779

Now I See, This sounds so good and I imagine it is moist as well. I am curious, the apple bread has a topping. . . did you use this? Also, I love the idea of lemon instead of buttermilk. What I do is add a cap of vinegar to 2% milk. . . my own little lazy buttermilk. It works. Lemon is easier. I was making 2 banana breads or apple breads a week. My son and friends were always asking for cookies, cakes, breads or whatever. Now, the house is fairly quiet and I am not baking as much. But, the friends are still coming and staying over even though my son is in Chicago. Just not as often. I will try this combo. Really creative BTW. What a great idea. If you get a chance, you should post it on a recipe board. Thanks for the new recipe. I will let you know how it turns out.

Mstar, I was in my favorite ripped jeans and faded Red Sox tee-shirt the other day. I felt like a kid! Nearly a warm breeze blowing. . . spring training was coming alive. . . so was I . . . I was riding high and happy. Seriously, silly grin all day. This morning. . . I felt OLD! In the fall, I asked for a mild winter. After the first and second snow I asked for no more. After January I was begging. . . here it is March and as you say. . . this snow bull. . . I don't think He is listening to me. All winter long. . . the same mantra. .. come quickly. . . BASEBALL. You don't want me asking anymore. . . we may have a record snowfall for APRIL!! :)

Hello? Exactly. This kind of stupidity happens all the time in our justice system. People who should NOT be in jail. . . end up there. Sometimes, due to circumstances beyond their control. Then people like Sheriff Joe or State legislators try to play judge and jury. . . actually tying the hands of real judges to execute sound justice. See, it is crazy. Single mothers, kids, mentally retarded, minorities, and mostly the POOR end up in our prisons. One in nine African American men are in prison. One in a hundred black women. One in 355 white woman. . . . . People should take a look at the prison statistics in this country. Staggering. Costly. Ineffective. Reform would save us so much in pain and in dollars. That is why we advocate and educate to what is really going on. Prison is a business in this country. Excellent observation WG. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8022803016.html

I had no idea about any of this. I am really sickened if this is true. Imagine you are the mother of a mentally handicapped thirty-three-year-old-man. Your son functions on the level of a twelve-year-old boy. His disability often causes him to act erratically, but you still hope that one day, he can lead a normal life. One night in August, 2001, he is arrested on a misdemeanor loitering charge when he begins acting strangely in a convenience store. When officers arrive to arrest him, he is clinging to the store's coffee machine and won't let go. Four officers forcibly remove him from the store, handcuff him, and throw him to the ground to be hogtied. The force seems excessive, since your son is disabled and only weighs about a hundred and thirty pounds. A few minutes later, his limbs bound behind his tiny frame, officers load him into the squad car to take him away. Before they pull away, your son asks you, like a little kid: "Mom, will you ride in the car with me?" "I can't," you tell him, "the police won't let me." You figure that the police will probably hold your son overnight, and you head home to get some rest. Two hours later, your son is dead. When Charles Agster arrives at Madison Street Jail, he is confused, as is typical of his condition. He tries to wriggle underneath a bench, and although he is still hogtied, three or more officers and a sheriff's deputy jump on him, punch him, and knee him in the side. One officer grips his face, pressing upward toward his chin. Although he is now unresponsive, the officers drag him, face down, into the Intake area and strap him into a restraint chair. They place a spit-hood over his head, encasing him in darkness. Minutes later, he stops breathing. The original autopsy lists "positional asphyxia due to restraint" as his cause of death. Videotape of the incident shows guards trying to resuscitate Agster, but he's already brain dead. A 2002 Amnesty International report expresses concern "that the degree of force used against Agster was grossly disproportionate to any threat posed by him."

That is not gibberish, that is a perfect explanation of worship. It means to make obeisance, do reverence. What we do in our lives in obedience and love for Him is worship. Worship means to bow down in reverence. . . we also worship in the presence of the Lord. His beauty and holiness. . . the powerful and holy presence of God. It brings you to worship This is often done alone with the Lord, but you can certainly worship with others. We were made to worship God. Ps 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker. Ps 96:9 O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth. Most churches have praise and praise music. It is sometimes called worship, but praise is with song, music and joy. We can sing our praise to the Lord. It is applaud or magnify. TWI taught practicing the presence of God. "Be still and know that I am God." It is not the same as praise and not really worship either. . . . not sure what it was.

http://www.answering-islam.org/index.html

Wordwolf, So glad that is what you took away rom my heart felt and honest post. Because I reject this doctrine and do not have any interest in reading the theology. . . I am hiding and possibly afraid I will be persuaded? I was persuaded for over ten years. It holds no value to me. If it does to you. . . fine. . . I am not the judge. I say we leave it up to the Lord to judge the intents of the heart. A few posts on an ex-cult site, might not be the best indicator. I won't judge you. . . you helped me with that. . . I would ask the same of you. If I said anything that offended you. . . I am sorry. I just don't accept unitarian theology. I never will. If that means to you I am hiding. . . nothing I can do about that.

Potato, Let me ask you a sincere question. Do you think that holding fast to faith in Jesus is equal to being afraid of looking at other points of view? You didn't say that. . . . so, I assume nothing here, :) I am just curious about the wording. I went to 3 excellent and diverse colleges. . . . one of them a women's school. . . spent nearly year at Oxford and have met every kind of person imaginable. I have lived with a family from India who were Hindu. I have been lucky to travel a bit. . . . meet some well known figures. Hubby met the former president of South Africa. . . We have met more than one famous politician from both sides of the aisle. CEO's to homeless and prisoners. While my daughter was growing up, she celebrated most Jewish Holy days at one time or another. My son, before he was homeschooled, went to an independent progressive school, which roots were based in the celebration of spiritual diversity. Meaning, each faith was equally explored and respected. He was surrounded by those of different faiths. . . in turn we were as well. He has been Bar Mitzvah's and Solstice celebrations. Hubby built a "sacred circle" once for a woman who wanted a place in her backyard to celebrate her faith and to display her Godesses. I sat in there with her as she explained to me all she was trying to express. More art than anything spiritual, but still, she believed it. I have been to Temple many times. We have more than one gay friend. Hubby goes and shovels out our friends in the next town. . . they are older and disabled. . . a married lesbian couple. Friends. I have shopped at Harrods and the Salvation Army. Had meals with very well known theologians and apologists. Coffee with Rabbis and visited Buddahist Monks. I have been to a monastary outside of Gloucester England. Celebrated Mass there. Heck, we even know a famous 60's icon. My mother practiced witchcraft when I was growing up. My father is an atheist who takes every opportunity to mock religion. We have worked hard on behalf of the persecuted church. Been to the UN. We were friends with a Muslim family whose daughter was in grade school with my son. Well, until their son killed my other friends rabbit with acid. . . long story. I was in a cult. :) The list is long. I wonder if you think that because one holds fast to faith they are closed minded? It isn't a religion. It is not theology. It is not biblical principals. It is faith in a person. Actual, real, and alive. It is similar to a marriage. It is a love relationship and a monogomous one at that. But, consider being happily wed, deeply in love, fufilled and nurtured, satisfied and complete. Also, assured and supplied for. . . lacking nothing because of this person. Think about being so loved everyday, known completely and still accepted. We all strive to be better people. . . right? Think about this person knowing exactly how to gently teach you to be better, and being able to work these lessons into your life. Think about a someone so close. . . He dwells in you. In your heart. Someone so perfect and shines so gloriously you actually worship this person. This person never grows cold to you or loses that love for you. He is faithful and perfect, and doesn't change. He always loves you and is always there. He brings you joy and comforts you in sorrow. He promises we can spend eternity with Him. That our relationship will never end. He promises to ready us for this. Then think about how tempting it would be to shop around for something better. Especially if you already have and never found anything so perfect. It wouldn't be tempting. Not in the least. But, that doesn't mean you can't be friends with others, or love them. Who is going to be the ones you are very close to? The ones who also know Him. You are able to share the worship and adoration you have for Him with those who also know Him personally. H equips us to love others by being so loved. This would mean, others of all backgrounds. Even those who persecute you. If we have finally found that which satisfies that hunger in us. . . and He has proven Himself worthy of our faithfulness. . . by being faithful. . . . He has shown Himself and He is worthy. . . So worthy God has made Him Master over ALL things. . .such devotion and single-heartedness is not really out of line. . . . all the while I know my attempts to reciprocate pale in comparison to His. . . yet He accepts them. . . .and we commune. . . why would look anywhere else? Moreover, He will never become boring or disappointing or frustrating. . . because there is no greater treasure conceived than the Son of God. My ability to savor this inexhaustible treasure is not even limited by my human weakness. So, I am already spoken for. I don't have to look anymore. Just as the Father delights in His Son. . . so do we. We delight with God in His glory. Call me crazy. . . and it wouldn't be the first time :) but I am sticking with Jesus. . . He hasn't let me down yet! Oh and Mark, this is what they show you in the churches you say the gospel is missing in. . . . sorry, but that is an amazing and misguided statement.

It was a corps grad who helped my husband and I leave TWI. He was a limb leader and he and his wife were kind and gentle people. He left on his own after learning much of what was going on. . . He didn't let anyone follow him further than the door. He played a phone message he had gotten from Craig for hubby and I. . . it was VILE. He held nothing back, said what he was doing with HIS family. . . the choice was ours . . . . he wouldn't advise anyone, but just give us the facts. He told the corps present they were NOT qualified to be in anyone's business and he a pretty much blew the whole spiritual elitism out of the water. He woke up. . . saw what the heck he had been involved in and walked away. I still think of him as a nice guy. There were some very good people in TWI. They may have been the exception. . . . but they were there.

Twins take it. . . 5-2 One down . . . nine to go. . . Mayor's Cup battle begins. . . . Dustin vs Justin. . . you gotta love it. . . .life is worth living once again!!! Baseball. . . . spring. . . the crack of the bat. . . I am grinning from ear to ear!!!!!

Mark, Thanks, I appreciate the concern and the critique of my study habits. I don't wish to be offensive in anyway, truly, but I am not interested in biblical unitarian theology. I understand this is your belief. This reflects your understanding of scripture and who you believe Jesus really is. . . . For me, this is unthinkable to ever consider again or return to. . . I know you don't understand why. . . but trust me when I say. . . I could NEVER deny the deity of Jesus again. You have my permission to pat me on the head. . . .and consider me doing "the best I can." :) I am glad that you read Christian theologians. . . . that is great. I hope you continue to do so. I hope you find the time to read some Johnathan Edwards. . . DL Moody is another wonderful minister and was an amazing evangelist. The number of souls saved are countless in part due to this man's understanding of the redeeming work of Christ alone. He had no theological credentials, but He did have an unwavering commitment to Jesus Christ. This is a man whose life bore real fruit. This is the type of Christian I now read. As an aside we used to care for his grave site. . . it was an honor. My daughter graduated from a school he founded.

The only other possible explanation for trying to justify the "Truth" VP taught . . . . is that He didn't really believe it himself. That seperates the "Truth" from VP and his rotten fruit. If that is the case, what were any of us doing there in the first place. After all, wasn't it about the truth unknown since the 1st century? Supposedly given to this one man by God Himself? If he believed what he taught. . . and it produced "Rotten Fruit" it had rotten roots. No way around it.

I love the scriptures, I love searching them. I do love reading theology, my favorite is reformed theolgy, but I will look at different things. I love reading, Spurgeon, Moody, Edwards, some of the Puritans, Piper, Ravi Zacharias, Chandler, C.S Lewis. . . . the list goes on and on. I don't rely on these men to guide me into all truth. . . that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Who glorifies the Lord. I don't think all other faiths are without any truth. That is silly, but now I just consider that all real truth belongs to God. I do approach the bible differently now. I don't like to quote long passages, but in this case it is helpful to explain. . . . You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, recognized and read by everyone, since it is plain that you are Christ's letter, produced by us, not written with ink but with the Spirit of the living God; not on stone tablets but on tablets that are hearts of flesh. 4 We have this kind of confidence toward God through Christ: 5 not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God. 6 He has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit produces life. 13 not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were closed. For to this day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains; it is not lifted, because it is set aside [only] in Christ. 15 However, to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 We all, with unveiled faces, are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit. In many ways, I believe we were similarly blinded, by a code of religious beliefs. . . it is actually much worse than that. . . but I will spare you :) It is about Jesus now. It is about a relationship with Him. Personal and in love. . . .only His judgement matters. It is a spiritual communion. It was when I turned to the Lord and not "the word, the word, and nothing but the word" that the veil was lifted. My life is in subjection to Him. . . the person of Jesus. . . . alive and real. . . . not someone's take on the bible. How I approach the scripture now, is in light of Him. The Holy Spirit reveals Him. . . guides to Him. . .unfolds Him in the verses. Jesus does the transforming. . . the work. . . I submit to Him. That is why you often hear Christians say, I gave my life over to the Lord. I can't transform myself alone. . . renew my mind into heaven. . . .I actually did confess Him as Lord in my heart post TWI. Not just use His name and move on to the "Meat". . . or the hidden knowledge, present truth, or some man's revelation of snow on gas pumps. If it is not about Him. . . it isn't about anything. If He is not known to us. . . we are not known by Him. That means. . . who He really is. I didn't know Jesus before TWI and certainly didn't learn the truth about Him there. . . that is how I got tricked. I turned to the "Word" as taught by VP. . . not to the Lord Himself. For me the difference is Him in the reality of His presence and person. He alone is worthy. . . consider in Revelation 5 when the angel cried out. . . who is worthy to open the scroll and break the seals. . . the answer came back. . . look the Lion of the tribe of Judah The root of David. . . has conquered, so He can open the scroll. He alone is worthy in God's eyes to open the scrolls of history and unfold the last days. I too have my faith in Him. He is how we know God.

Hi WG, This is a big smile I am sending your way :) okay? That means I really do love some of the things you write and they have helped me. I respect you. I understand what you are saying, and I know that there are unrepentant awful people in prison. Agreed!! No argument. But, I wonder if you remember the Amish children who were cruelly and senselessly gunned down by the guy who then killed himself? Remember what happened? The Amish forgave him. Those were beautiful innocent young girls, some as young as six. Beloved by their parents. . . their loss was devestating. The Amish not only forgave, but they went to the funeral of the gunman to comfort the wife. They said, they knew she was greiving too. They reached out to her. Their forgivness was real. What happened in that moment? The country took a long deep breath. . . . . . and held it in for a moment. God, in that amazing act of forgiveness was glorified. There are actually repentant people in prison. People sorry for their crimes and forgiven by the Lord. Who am I not to reach out to those, who are being punished by society, and offer human compassion and love? But, it goes even further than that. "If my enemy hunger". . . so I can reach out to those who have not yet heard that they can be forgiven. . . . and tell them of the free gift in Jesus. Even if they don't accept it. . . I can still offer them what I have to give. . . compassion. Please don't think I don't care about the victims of crime. I mourn losses of those I never knew, by just hearing of them. Heck, I cried for half an hour over Twinky's cat passing. I do care greatly. Life is not always black and white. . . it dwells in shades of gray.. . . . .my take anyway. . . :) Well, Cheranne. . . I have come up against plenty of prison guards. . . stepped in and stopped them from cruel and inappropriate comments to family members of inmates. . . sorry, I am just not impressed. I am sure your husband is a very nice guy, but that is his perspective. From the inside of a cell. . . there may be another. How do you respond when people say of the homeless. . . . they should just "Get a job." Circumstances and life's troubles, disabilities, mental illness, education level, mental development, and opportunity often preclude this simple answer. . . don't they? Could be. . . . a mother with a hungry child may get caught in shoplifting. . . no? She could even end up in. . . JAIL!! Thanks Now I See, I didn't know any of this. . . much appreciated.

In many ways, yes those verses are thrown around to freely. I would submit to you that concerning VP or your splinter group leader or any offshoot of TWI that is NOT the case. I have seen true ministers make an error and be quickly maligned as a false teacher, and yes, then I think one could then be in dangerous seas. Just like with our maligning the Jesus of the church, true ministers are called of God. We are in essence calling someone of God. . . evil. However, the scriptures spend much time and effort in warning on the topic of false teachers. We, of all people should understand and heed these verses because we have been decieved by such men. It IS possible to jump from one false teaching to another. . . decieved again and again. "Ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. It takes coming to the Lord and a knowledge of Him to have that veil taken away. We never did that in TWI, and I venture to say the offshoots are not any better, although they may speak as if they have a more personal knowledge of Him. They even give lip service to some kind of relationship with Him. But, if we ourselves "Know" Him we will be able to spot this for what it is. There are certain things that are easy give-aways. :) We were fond of knowledge in TWI. Nothing wrong with learning, but our foundation must be right. Jesus Christ is our foundation. If we build on anything else it is a rickety building. It must be a right knowledge of Him. . . not a wrong understanding. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. The Holy Spirit. . . He is the one who points and guides us to Jesus and to all truth. Not our knowledge or theology. He glorifies the Lord. . . that is how you can tell it is the real thing. Listen to what others tell you. Is the Lord glorified or denied?? Spiritual pride is abominable. What you describe in your splinter group. . . reeks of it. A man is glorified. . . No? You can't take a carnal life and join it with divine faith. You can't profess Christianity and wed it with the corruption of sin. Jesus is the only one able to bear the weight of that sin. That must be our foundation. That is the church's foundation. False teachers teach unholy doctrines. . . or doctrines of demons. . . The Spirit of Christ dwells in all true believers. We are Holy by profession. We are holy in our behavior and heart. We are deceived when we think of ourselves as the temple of the Holy Spirit, yet are unconcerned about our personal holiness, or the peace and purity of the church. When we have such a high opinion of ourselves or our own wisdom. . . we are deceived. Self-flattery is deception. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God, it is not knowledge, but vanity and weakness. This alone should teach us to be humble before the Lord. Think about that in terms of TWI or your splinter. This should cause us to be willing to be taught BY God. . . He holds nothing good from us. He wants us to prepare in this life for our lives in heaven. We must ask for a humble heart. . . no matter the cost now. Lord, take us from sin and sorrow and guide us to the Father's house!!! This may involve losing some of our confidence in our knowledge and in our theology. It is worth it. Believe it or not. . . there can be great delight in this. False teachers replace the simplicity in Christ with endless rules or endless sin. I really believe we have to look at these things. . . deeply and with God to guide us. Not men. . . not books. . . not theology our minds are not able to argue with. With the Holy Spirit to enlighten. Then we do need to speak out and warn. It IS emotional Jeff. . . . our relationship with Jesus is a LOVE relationship. Anyone or thing that stands opposed to Him will bring up emotion. It will bring things from the depth of your heart. It will bring warnings because we love people.

Twins and Red Sox tommorow night. . . Wakey gets the nod. . . . Yeah baby . . . Yeah baby. . . . Yeah baby. . . Here we goooooo!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :)

Oddly enough, VP does fit the criteria set forth in the scriptures of a false teacher. He doesn't fall too short there.

Oh no, I agree. The scriptures cover this in great detail. . . false teachers whose destruction was from long ago. . . . I was thinking about that in relation to this topic. That would be interesting to hear your take on. . . I have a rather forceful one :) on false teachers. . . How does that relate do you think? Does it? I am curious ?

I guess we just have differing outlooks. . . Having been to prisons and met prisoners. . . I just see it from another perspective. Prison Ministry is a wonderful thing. . . but it is not for everyone. Jesus hung out with the sinners. . . :) For the most part, the penal system is dominated by ideas of retribution, punishment and even isolation. The Christian gospel--forgiveness, compassion, redemption, reconciliation, restorative justice--and these often do run counter to prevailing sentiments. I get the frustration. . . I really do. But, IMHO people in prison need love and visits too. My take anyway. . . others may differ.

Just a little bit more on the luxury prisoners endure. . . now bear in mind minimum sentencing guidlines imposed on judges. . .meaning a first time Non-violent offender can be incarcerated for years. You get the wrong DA or one that has political asperations. . . anyone is fair game. . . including young kids. . . who make a mistake and should be given parole. I have seen this with my own eyes. . . . I saw a judge CRY when sentencing someone, because her hands were tied. Prisoners pay everytime they put a sick slip in. They have to get permission to carry tylenol on them and they pay for the tylenol. If they run out and have pain. . . if they don't have a slip in. . . and can't borrow some . . . . .they suffer. You have to advocate hard to get them their proper meds in prison. Many of these people are mentally ill. Meds are not priority. . . it is a real pain to work this system. They are strip searched before and after visits. . . before and after work. . . no matter their crime. It is dehumanizing. The guards can be verbally abusive to the prisoners and to the families. . . I have SEEN it. I know it to be true. The rules change with the guards. I watched one woman have to leave the prison and go buy NEW clothes before she visited her daughter. Why? The guards didn't approve of her clothes. Guess what? They told her different slacks. . . she came back. . . they made her go get a different shirt. She was in tears. . . . this is a visitor. Not even a prsioner. She had worn the SAME clothes two weeks before. Mind games go on all the time. It is not a good system or one any of us would call luxury if we found ourselves on the inside. I go to a prison two and sometimes three times a week. I am telling you. . . hard places. Not everyone in a prison should be there either. Some should be in hospitals or mental health facilities. Most need so much help.

I like some of the reforms he has instituted, but this last comment really ticked me off. Anyone who has visited a prison knows that prisoners do not live in luxury. That is an ignorant assumption. Punishment is fine. . . but without rehabilitation it is useless and causes recidivism. What this Sheriff is doing in many ways is rehabilitation. Teaching responsibility and ethics, while holding prisoners to account. What is it this person thinks the prisoners are enjoying. . . which average taxpayers can't. TV? They have to buy a TV to enjoy it. . . prisoners pay for their own televisions . . . or try to watch with a dozen or more other prisoners in a rec room where you can't hear and may see a part of the screen. Also, not the safest place to hang out. Food? Prisoners have a very minimal 1300 calorie a day diet in many prisons. . . they have to pay for any food beyond that. . . from the canteen. Soap, shampoo, toothpaste, drinking cups, lotion, face wash, and even clothes are all paid for as extras by the prisoners. They are issued two sets of clothes. Anything else they have to buy.If anything is stolen. . . you are out of luck. . . no reissue. They do their own laundry. . . work at jobs for less than 10 dollars a week. . . sometimes 30 hours or more. . . so it is not as luxurious as it sounds. LOL I don't have too many issues with Sheriff Joe's reforms. . . they are humane. . . they work. . . but, I do take issue with the quote above. The people who actually support anything beyond the bare minimums in prisons are the family or advocacy groups. . . many of the families are poor themselves and sacrifice for their loved ones in prison. The family also suffers when someone is incarcerated. It is not as cut and dry as it sounds. . . BTW. . . there is no smoking in prisons anymore.

Jeff, That did help to clarify things thanks. . . I can speak with no authority on the unforgivable sin. I do not believe that the sin unto death is the same thing. . . . and I am not even sure you can commit the unforgivable sin today. The circumstances in which the Pharisees did this are not available today. Jesus is not in the flesh here on the earth. . . so, I don't really know. That said. . . I can only discuss and try to understand WITH you. What the leaders in TWI and your splinter group did, were terrible things, Jeff, . . . . that is a given. But, here is something to consider. I did the same things. Maybe not to the degree or in the same manner, but it was every bit as grevious. I was stiff necked and hardened in TWI. I was a very puffed up and often a mean person. In fact, I didn't know true repentance. I was very busy justifying my sin with twisted scripture. I loved darkness rather than light. This is true Jeff. How did I get that way? That is something I have had to think about. It didn't happen over night. It was a slow imperceptible change. . . gradual. I was a gentle person when I took the class. I cried over "After School Specials". . . "Phone commercials". . . Goodness, I could not say a mean word to anyone. I knew the difference between right and wrong. In my heart I knew. But, I was weak willed and not yet brought to repentance. I heard something that tickled my ears. . . and because I was burdened by sin. . . but not yet led to repentance, I fell into the trap. I was primed for false teaching. I am no better than those who also fell into the trap. I truly wanted to know God. . . to love Him. . . heck, I always had in some way or another. But, I got tripped up. . . caught up in false teaching. I never came to a saving faith in TWI. . . because it wasn't there. It was an easy believism. Not real faith. Does that make sense to you? I said the same things about the Jesus of the church. Angrily as a matter of fact. I can remember being a WOW and listening to music mocking the trinity. I sang right along with this attitude that I can only describe as haughty superiority. Those in the Christian church believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. That is what we were mocking. Calling idolatrous. Saying was a devil Spirit. We assumed these people ALL tricked. The reproof that was given to those in TWI did often come from outside the group. . . our persecutors. . . remember? That is not what we are speaking of here. . . we are talking about those in the group. Very few of us were actually born again. I would venture to say. . . that had we not been born again before TWI. . . chances are high. . . it did not happen in TWI. So, to assume that The Holy Spirit was working in the lives of those trying to reprove this oragnization from within. . . is just that. . . a big assumption. I don't know that is the case. I don't know that it isn't. To charge someone with having commited a sin that is not pardonable. . . is a big deal. God is able to protect our hearts and deliver us from this stuff. It is always to His glory when this happens. Always. . . He must be glorified. . . look for that, but look closely. Now, God can use whatever He wants. . . He used Caiphas to prophesy. He used Baalam (A false prophet) to warn Israel. He used Baalams donkey to reprove Baalam. He used Paul's thorn in the flesh. . . He used Paul's time in prison to pen some of the epistles. . . John's exile in Patmos to write Revelation. He used the death of Christ to redeem us. So, I am not saying that God was not at work in TWI. But, the way He was working might be different than we understand or how we think God should work. We just cannot assume that people are beyond salvation, or that anything can thwart God's purposes for His elect. God has used my time in TWI to teach me many great things. I was blinded, and He has slowly and carefully delivered me. He has shown me the depth of my blindness and the why's of it. . . used it to be glorified in my deliverance. I could NEVER-EVER-NEVER-EVER have come out of this without His work in my life. I take no credit in any of it. . . I can't. The things He has used. . . are astounding. I didn't just go find a new theology I couldn't argue with. . . or continue on in what I liked or sounded reasonable from TWI. . HE HE HE stripped me of all of it. . . But, He did it. . . not me. He has led me to Him by The Holy Spirit. I don't know what God has worked in the lives of others. . . or what He will use to be glorified or for their deliverance. We were terribly close to many bad and evil things in TWI. . . .everyday. . . we dwelt in the land of false teaching. . . not a good habitat. I know what we said and did was wrong. But, I am DAILY brought to worship when I consider what He delivered me from. Who knows, but Him, who else He is working these same things in. . . not me. All I can do is pray fervently for others. With God all things are possible. I can't do it. . . He can. . . Does any of this make sense? Now, to tell someone it is WRONG to call things "Devils" is right on the money. . . but to assume anyone is past redemption is to assume we know and understand what God is working in others lives. . . I can't go there. I just don't know. . . I know to pray for them. . . with a pure and hopeful heart. I am genuinely interested in what you are saying. . . the only thing I took issue with was that some were marked forever. Only God knows that. Consider if you will. . . if we were led so dangerously close to the edge with this teaching. . . what else took us there? Couldn't just be this one thing. . . how bad does it have to really be to get us to this point?

Potato, If there was a rally today outside TWI headquaters. . . you would see my face front and center. . . holding a sign that reads. . . "PFAL is the way to hell" IMHO VPW did not teach the scriptures, He reworded them and twisted them to justify his own lusts and appetites. Just look at what he did to people. So, an emphatic NO is not loud enough to express my disdain for PFAL or for Victor Paul. If you didn't guess . . . . the answer is no. :)

Mike, I understand the premise here and the authority of scripture. That is a given. . . .You do understand Jesus IS the word. Don't you? He is not in subject to the bible. . . He is so far above it. He is above everything. Remember, God magnified His WORD above His name. . . what does that verse really mean to you? The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. (Who took up residence among them? Jesus) We observed His glory,(Transfiguration) the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. HE is full of grace and truth! (Not the law). . . HE IS!! What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have observed, and have touched with our hands, concerning the Word of life In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The bible says that Jesus was subject to the Father. . . and to His parents. . . that which He spoke were the things the father told Him to speak. . . . His judgements were unique. . . remember all the hub-bub? Speaking of the woman caught in adultery. . . If Jesus would have only held to the mosaic law (Lev 20, Dt 22 ) His reputation for compassion and forgiveness would have been suspect, If Jesus rejected the law of Moses His credibility would be gone. . . The law did not have the power of compassion or forgiveness. . . . JESUS had the POWER to supercede the law while fufilling it with compassion. Keep it in perspective. . . who is this Jesus?? What law did they keep harping on Him for breaking? The Sabbath. . . right?. . . He healed on the Sabbath. . . performed miracles on the Sabbath. . .The mosaic law did not allow circumcision on the Sabbath. . . they had to break the law to keep it by waiting until the ninth day!! Jesus didn't come to practically apply the law. . . .His only rule for faith and practice. . . He came to fufill the law. They accused Him of breaking it because they worshipped THE LAW or BIBLE!! ABOVE the word made flesh. . . right there before their very eyes!! Jesus was not some created being, with a little extra Pneuma Hagion thrown in for good measure. . . He is ETERNAL . . . He took on flesh. . . The law or word did not point people to God. . . Jesus did and STILL does. He is the Savior of the world. . . which means saving us from the law. . . which could NEVER save. . . and this is what YOU claim was His only rule for faith and practice. . . He is so far above everything. . . You have to have worship in its proper place. . . you have it backwards. . . by this understanding Jesus is subject to the word. . . He is the word made flesh. . . this is how we fell into bible worship. . . Not understanding who Jesus really is.

Well? Tell us what it is. . . I am waiting for my epiphany!! Dang it!!