geisha779

Extra credit: When remembering one's WEDDING and the birth of their CHILDREN. . . . and few nice people and a few laughs equates to being a delusional, Way-brained, insensitive wench. . . . . . it might be time to check how that anger embracing is working out for ya!!

No it was veiled. I hope you are not talking about me RumRunner. But, then again, what do I care. . . have at it. You are right though. . . there are plenty of pulpits around here. Some sermons preached from them extoll the virtues not found in an average Sunday Sermon. I have nearly completed cynicism 101. . . just mail me my grade. No one exhorted anyone to do anything but consider another perspective. The HORROR!! (How am I doing? A+ worthy?) All I did was point to the "Snapping" thread. Well worth the read. But, then again, there was a University study involved. Why bother? I see reading what is actually written has flown right out the window. Reacting and being the most pi$$ed off seems to win the day. This is my final project. . . . are you grading on a curve?? I hope not considering the thread. Does grammar count??

Hey Twinky, It is funny how these critters can communicate their needs to us. This morning I was sitting cross-legged on the floor in front of my laptop. . . half reading---half getting ready to leave. . . all the cats were in the bedroom with me. . . all three as usual. Chandler, my orange tabby, the old guy. . . tried to get the shut door open. He couldn't manage it as it was shut tight. He turned around and came over to me and looked me in the eye and I swear he formed a sentence. He asked me to let him out. He waited for me to get up from the floor and walked with me to the door. He purrped as he left. . . as if to say thanks. We are having a difficult time keeping Dickie in the house. We don't like them outside because of fisher cats. . . and other wild animals. Yesterday hubby and I were walking to the car and Dickie rounded the corner and started talking. Twinky, the wide-eyed questioning look on his face and the string of Meows had me in stitches. I swear to you he said "HEY! Where are you going?" These cats are a hoot. They come up every night about the same time to go to sleep at the foot of our bed. We have a Kitty cookie jar in our room filled with treats and they all know they get a few before bed. If I forget they go to the jar and yell. Onslow. . . I call him my "Special Ed" kitty waits for me to pull back the covers and then comes up when we get in bed. . . he gets special petting time for a bit. The other night I was up late on the computer and he was waiting and waiting for me. Finially he just started this insistent meow. Sure enough, when I got up and got in bed. . . he came up quiet and purring. That is all he wanted. Chandler has become a bit of a celebrity in certain circles. The kids take video of him and put it on facebook. People comment and all know Chandler. Too funny. They do make their needs known and the more I pay attention. . . the more I see how very much they do communicate. Onslow too got trapped outside once. He spent the night in the Yews under the kitchen windows. He doesn't even try to get out now. Dickie on the other hand is a MASTER escape artist. We just got all our screens back from rescreening with enforced mesh. . . it is suppose to be cat proof. We will see, Dickie should have been the test kitty. I love to read about your cats. . . thanks and glad to hear they are doing well!!

Well, I never said I didn't see abuse in the Way. . . I saw plently. I just said I never saw a kid beaten with a spoon. Just because I don't tell each and every horrible thing that happened to me . . . . doesn't mean they didn't happen. It was vomit out your brain. . . not eyes. . . and it was punch "this" Christ in the face and go back again. . . sorry I misquoted you. "so what exactly can i do with what i know besides vomit it out of my brain and do what i can to heal? and i'd like to meet this "christ" that would ask such an inane question of people so horribly abused in the name of "god" because i feel like punching him right in the mouth as many times as i could until i was worn out and then get my breath and start in again" Your right. . . your choice of expression is your own. . . and yes. . . please enjoy your time here. . . sorry if I upset you.

Chockfull, What sound advice. . . I thank you. I have taken it onboard and despite my verbose responses in this paticular thread. . . . I have moved on in my life. In fact, it is very ironic that I find myself advocating a position that can be percieved as defending TWI. But here is the thing. . . .and there is no real way to get around this. . . you and I and the others who post here make up what was once TWI. We are actually the people being discussed. And although I have had to really evaluate my time in TWI with the harsh light of current reality shinning on a large portion of my past. . . I have been able to make peace with it on some level. That is why I can look at those I knew with some manner of understanding. If I judge them solely based on the facade of Waythink. . . I must do that with myself. . . or I am a hypocrite. I was more than TWI. . . lost for a time, but still more. . . . . I still retained a shadow of myself while I was in TWI. Others did as well. If I write off all those I knew as bad. . . because of some actions. . . .I judge every prayer, good deed, and moment of kindness given. I don't have that kind of vision or perception. Like I keep saying. . . we were all tricked. . . but not all bad. Hope that makes sense????

First off brainfixed I have to tell you. . . I tapped my daughter once on a very padded nappy and promptly burst into tears. She in turn just looked at me then continued on her way. That was our one and only experience with the wooden spoon. I truly never saw anyone beat their child with a wooden spoon or belittle them in a public setting. I was around many parents and children. That is not to say it didn't happen, but not anywhere I ever lived. . . . that I witnessed. . . . You know, TWI wasn't a church, or a social group, or a nice little bible ministry gone bad. . . it was actually a cult. There are some interesting studies done about what happened to those of us involved in TWI. In fact, there is a thread around here called. . . TWI-induced SNAPPING, Detrimental, abrupt personality & self-image change If I knew how to link to it I would, but you can do a search on "Snapping" and easily find it. I think that Waysider brought it up once on another thread called Snapping. It might help you to understand that your mom. . . was actually a victim too. It may seem like she made all her own choices. . . it might be an interesting consideration to learn what might have happened to her in TWI. I am not so sure your mom would have been the same had she joined another church or participated in another ministry. It is quite a reaction to talk about hurling. . . or vomiting out your eyes. . . or beating Jesus in the face. . . it really might be helpful to get some more information on what took place in your Mom's head. Maybe it will help you look at her with a bit more understanding. . . and work through some of your anger. I read your responses to Roy in the doctrinal forum. . . seems you have great capacity for understanding the human condition. . . . Check out those threads!! :)

I am trying to understand what you are saying. It is rather cryptic to my ears, but maybe it is just me. Yes, TWI was and is made up of people. My point exactly. The people that post here are former members of TWI. I would guess that out of all the posters registered here. . . the majority are good people. Even some of the grumpy ones have a heart of gold. :) I imagine that there is at least one redeemable quality present in them today that was present during their time in TWI. Kindness, honesty, generosity, caring. . . selflessness. . . something?? I saw all those qualities exhibited at one time or another. People are flawed, and people get tricked. . . we did lose some of ourselves in TWI. . . no doubt. . . but, not all tossed humanity out the window. Some, yes. . . not all. So, if we accept the premise that people are flawed, and we accept the reality that we were tricked. . . together. . . theoretically, we can have some room in our hearts and fondness for the good people we lived with, worked with, and loved. Not perfect people. . . but people with at least "some" good qualities. Not everyone raped and pillaged. And Lord knows I wasn't in it for the money. . . I owned and rode in enough junkers to realize that not many WERE in it for the money. If you talk to me about the doctrine or sheep being led astray. . . you will get a whole different response. But, the people. . . . as flawed and broken as some were. . . were not all bad. Remember, we actually ARE those people. I really hope you understand that does not diminish the bad. I have more than my share of horror stories. . . but this thread posed the question of "good times". If I had my life to live over again. . . this converation would be moot. I would run. . . not walk the other way. . . but I don't . . . so. . . . it still is what it is. There are just too many human beings I can't regret.

Bolshevik, Fair enough. In the grand scheme of things, the past, good or bad, has a nasty tendency to rear its head in some form or another in our lives. . . . and visiting an ex-cult site and speaking daily about the past is not really burning bridges. It can be a healthy thing.. . . . but it does not exactly lend itself to a true disconnect with the past. I would venture to guess you still have those you love who are involved in TWI to varying degrees. Even if it is just the mindset. What exactly is it you are advocating as bridge burning?. . . because if I were to take a stab at guessing. . . I would come up with accepting nothing good about anything concerning TWI tenure. Including, but not limited to, family and friends. We all pick and choose which bridges to burn. Apparently you too. Continuing to speak of TWI, even in warning to others, is a bridge to the past. If some of us choose not to burn some people up in the process, it does not mean we don't know what TWI is, or haven't come to terms with what we were involved in. . . how do you make that leap? Although not stated. . . it seems implied in the tone of your posts.

I wouldn't think my memories would mean much to you Bolshevik. . . . either way. They don't have to move you. . . but they don't have to offend you either. Did I say TWI wasn't a mistake? I don't remember writing that, in fact, I wrote it is an insidious cult. Maybe it is selfish on my part to allow some joy in my life, especially from my past. . . my husband of 20+ years and the kids we had while in TWI. . . the people we still are friends with to this day. . . . You are right. . . when hubby gets home. . . he is outta here. . . the kids. . . on the streets. . . the friends. . . who needs them. Burning bridges is much more important. Except. . . I don't want to burn SOME of the bridges. . . they are part of the good in my life. There is plenty of bad to get rid of. . . time to make up for. . . can I keep the good things too? Haven't we sacrificed enough at the altar of TWI abuse?

This makes so much sense to me. I think people, as they get older, have a tendency to romanticize their youth, even in the best of circumstances. It is human nature. Hubby and I wander down the "remember when" road a couple times a year. . . we have also traveled the "what if?" road. Funny, that one never gets us anywhere. Today is my son's birthday. He was born during my sojourn in TWI. . . born while I was sending in my ABS and while I was helping with a classes. I always bore my kids silly with their birth stories every year. . . how dad tried to put on clothes from the dirty laundry and I made him change twice. . . who was there, who helped. . . and always how much I suffered in labor to bring them into the world. . . :) It always ends the same way. With the thrill of seeing them for the first time and holding them. . . the thrill of knowing them. They are a true gift. . . . Mine. Those memories are not tainted for me because of TWI. The fact that my kids were born while I was in a cult is not a great source of pride for their father or me, but it doesn't take away from the joy or happiness of the time. It is just the way it happened. It really isn't a slap in anyone else's face or a belittling of their experience while in TWI. It is not the same memory as the times I was abused, or had a stalker, or the myriad of other things I suffered. It is not the same memory as when my other son was born. Just different. . . it was a happy "good" time.

I am so sorry. This may not help, but in April my "sister-in-law" drowned in Hawaii. She and my brother-in law were together 30 years, but it was a Common Law marriage. It took close to a week to get her home. Hawaii does not recognize Common Law marriage. In the end we had to have her cousin come help with the red tape so that we could get her back to MN. My brother-in-law had no say. . . he was not considered next of kin. It was just another state. . . not country, but it will probably take a few days to a week. Someone may have to go to Ireland to accompany the body. We had Chris (Sister-in-law) cremated. It was headache on top of heartache. The state required an autopsy. You have to abide by the rules Ireland has set up for such cases. . . the US Embassy can help. They are pretty good about things like that. Again, I am so sorry for your loss.

brainfixed, I just want to encourage you with hope that their can be a perspective and some manner of peace with the past. Things still do crop up for me. Although I remember some things fondly, other have taken years to come to terms with. It is a process. I wish you well with all you are trying to deal with. Take Care!!

brainfixed, consider what happened ater VP died. It did not take long for the whole thing to fall apart and for thousands to walk away. . . . . groups like TWI are usually centered around one charismatic figure. When that figure dies and there is not someone as equally dynamic to step in and take over. . . the group falls apart. That makes it VP's cult. He was that charasmatic figure. Look at what happened. LCM had to send out LOYALTY letters!! Yes, people were duped. I was duped. In fact, I may have a broader concept of the cost than perhaps you do. . . I still believe in God and am a Christian. I think TWI robbed many people of a true relationship with Jesus. . . .it is an insidious cult. . . it was bible worship. But, you wrote in your initial post that your good times only served to bind you closer to your abusers. I disagree. I still have relationships forged in TWI. My husband and his WOW brother. . . still care for each other. When they reconnected after a time. . . . there was real friendship there. They met in TWI. . . they were in two programs together . . . . Minutmen and then they were sent WOW together. That doesn't negate the bond. It is MORE than TWI. Yes, we were part of TWI. . . ABS, classes, love-bombing, undersheparding, and all the rest. It is what it is. . . . but, many of us have years of our past tied up with it. Years. Which means that is it for the memories of our past. We have to come to terms with it in a healthy way. The good and the bad. Otherwise we can become quite angry and bitter. My take anyway. People who fall into cults are varied. It is not just the great unwashed masses. Educated, articulate, bright and capable people can get tricked. We are multi-faceted creatures. It seems to me that to evaluate an entire portion of ones life in light of the abusive system of TWI is a way to continue giving them complete authority over a life lived. That is not to say some of that is not healthy, but there comes a time in this process where you gotta give their power the final boot. That is why I remember the important events in my past fondly as well as the people around me then. Those who were good people. :) Hope that clears it up.

Some relationships forged during Waydaze have actually endured the test of time. Genuine enough for me. If I analyze ALL of my "good times" in light of being duped by an abusive group I am still giving them way too much authority. I would venture to say that at the very least, some of us did not check our humanity at the cult door and had the capacity for genuine care and concern for others. Yes, it was a cult, and an ugly one. But, while we were caught up in it. . . . we still lived our lives. VP wasn't there at my baby showers or at the birth of my kids. . . didn't come to my wedding. Those are my memories and he doesn't have a place in them.

What about talking to someone like John Juedes? http://www.abouttheway.org/ He knows about TWI and dealing with the people involved. Hank Hanegraaff is also familar with TWI. Maybe your pastor?

What warm and fuzzy stories about TWI? HUH? Who didn't pay a high price? Doesn't change that we shared a significant part of our lives with each other. The good and the bad. Genuine or feigned. . . I can only control what I feel for others. Nobody suffered so I could party in TWI. The electric was turned off more than once. . . . the phone was hit or miss. I was rank and file remembering rank and file. The people who were there when my son was sick. . . who drove me around and raised money for us. . . the women who helped when my kids were born. . . the ones who opened their home to us for our wedding. There were some good people in TWI who were generous and kind and thought they were serving God. They were tricked just like me. Doesn't mean they were wicked or evil. Sometimes we had fun together. It doesn't mean I couldn't have done something better with my life. . . I could have. I take what little good I can from it. . . what is the alternative? I can't go back and change it. It is what it is.

I am not saying TWI didn't have a price tag. I just think it is unrealistic to write off a whole portion of ones life as "All bad". I am sure being raised in a religion like TWI is difficult if it is not something you choose for yourself. Lots of people outside of TWI have faced similar childhoods. Heck, that might be the reason some fell into it in the first place. My point is. . . it wasn't all bad all the time. If it was most of us would never have continued on with it for so long. If it was such a horrible upbringing for you and others. . . I am really sorry. You don't have one or times growing up that you look back on and smile?? Not one good time the whole time you were around TWI? I don't like TWI or its doctrines or its methods. . . doesn't mean I don't care about the people I knew while in. . . or remember them fondly or even remember the good times I had with them. One experience doesn't cancel out the other. My bad experiences in TWI were PLENTY. . . but they don't negate the good times. Just like in other areas of my life. Sad times don't cancel out the happy. It is life. . . not always all good and not always all bad.

How is it realistic to take an entire significant portion of your life and write it off as bad because of TWI. You can't do it. . . or if one does, it might cause such anger, bitterness and resentment, life could get pretty hard. Life is messy. . . no? I can't change the bad past or the good past, but I own it. . . it is what happened. I don't think anyone here is arguing that TWI isn't abusive or that it isn't an ugly cult. Doesn't change the fact that my kids were born while I was in TWI and it was Way people around me for those milestone events in my life. TWIers stood up with us at our wedding. . . TWI clergy performed the ceremony. . . it was in a Way persons house. These were good times. . . mine. . . doesn't chnge what TWI is or was then. But, it wasn't all bad. I had fun at the Rock, saw people I did care about. Always got a great tan. I really wonder how realistic it is to expect people who have been in 30+ years to come out and say "Well that was a waste of time". Seems to me. . . it was our life. . . we have to somehow deal with the memories and how it shaped us. . . at least in a way we can function and move on with. Life is too short.

Many people have their entire youth and a large part of their life wrapped up in their time in TWI. I was 19 when I got in. . . married and had my kids in TWI. There were plenty of good times. The excitment of starting a family. . . these memories are wrapped up with the people who were around us then. Way people. We lived with people and shared a great deal. Wow families. Way homes. . . geeze many of us look back and that is what we have!! I refuse to call my youth and happy times a wash because of TWI. It was bigger than HQ and VP. . . it was comprised of some good people who got tripped up just like me. I guess I just wasn't one of the ones who didn't get "sucked in". I even got my family to take the class. Guess that makes me less somehow. Maybe my "Good" memories make me delusional, but somehow I came out the otherside in one piece.

My son just got BACK from LA. . .performing in front of Sharon Osbourne, David Hasselhoof, and the SAME Pierce for Americas Got Talent. It is all staged. . . he could not believe how phoney it all was. There is a sound check where everyone get's to hear you. You have to pass an initial audition to get to perform before the judges. Producers pick who is good enough to go to audition. It is not like she walked out there and no one knew she could sing. The judges reaction was probably real, but they could have had a heads up. It is a TV show and they CREATE moments like that for reactions just like these. It is a VERY fake atmosphere. They take one small snip of your story and create a backround for you. Nick Cannon interviewed my son, and my kid(Who has been interviewed before) was shocked by how they try to get a certain response from you. It is all staged.

Mstar. . . . It is supposed to rain in Boston on Monday!!!!!! Please say it isn't soooooo. They may actually get rained out!!

The Met's picked up Sheffield? Interesting. You are right Highway. . . . he used to swing a mean bat. All I remember is when he would come up for the Yankees I used to always nervously laugh at his menacing batting stance. Monday can't come soon enough, baseball movies and little league coaches are fine discussion I guess, but I am READY and miss reading you guys and your baseball chatter. Good insight, learned some fun stats and facts. Take Care and ENJOY :) the season. . . . waiting for the game talk to heat up.

Okay Mstar. . . this is for your winter blahs. . . a little pick-me-up! If it doesn't get better let me know and we can bring out the big guns. . . the Dropkick Murphys. . .

Maybe they won't plant them this year. .sandy soil in the bullpen anyway. . . . The Timlin thing kinda took me aback a bit! What happened to Gary Sheffield? The Tiger's still have to pay him but, he can go to another team for the major league minimum. Do you think someone will pick him and all his baggage up? Is he worth the risk? Menacing batting stance. . . Mstar. . . it is going to be in the 50's today, 60's tommorow. Don't despair. . . we are almost there. . . I know the feeling, but hang on a bit longer. Open the windows today and let some crisp spring air waft through the house. :) Summer is coming. . . I promise. . . I would settle for spring right about now though.