geisha779

Of course shut em down!! Expose them. . . tell it like it is. . . Yes! No one here is defending TWI. They need to go away. ASAP. It is an ugly cult. It hurts people. It consumes them and spits out the bones. . . No doubt. And you are right. . . being ignorant as opposed to supporting them knowing are two very differing things. The blame game however, can be toxic. I own up to my sins. . . but, if anyone thinks I am taking on the sins of others. . . they have me mixed up with a VERY different person.

Hi Rumrunner, I was being ironic. My post was in response to the premise that although people didn't know what was going on. . . and thought they were serving a greater good. . . they were still culpable for the abuse of others. I was trying to point out the obvious flaw in that logic without being too harsh. It was just irony. . . "an incongruity between what is expressed and what is intended" it was so outrageous I thought it was clear. :)

Let me get this straight? The people who were tricked are culpable for the abuse of others? The one's who unknowingly supported a system which allowed for abuse? That would mean . . . that the victims. . . were responsible for their own abuse as they too were supporting the whole? And. . . even though people were seeking good looking for God. . . they were not good people because they got tricked? No, that might make them stupid people, but even then I have my doubts. I have a differing take on who is responsible for the abuse. . . it is the one's who actually did it. Let them own it. . . they did it.

So, in 6 years you will be the same age that VP was when he hurt you? Excathedra, your posts reveal a dear and tender woman. I mean that sincerely. . . and it breaks my heart if he still has any power to cause you pain and sorrow. I am sorry for what you and many women endured. It was wrong. It was evil and it was sick. Let them own their own garbage. . . . . . it belongs to them. I hope some day we can all bury him. . . consign him to the warm climate in which he dwells. . . . . and be rid of him. They all had their time in our lives. . . VP. . . LCM. . . Rosie. . . TWI. . . BOT. . and the I say "To hell with them". I remember the good people I met along the way. . .the laughs. . .the kindness I knew. . . but the rest of it. . . . gets no more from me. I gave them more than my share. . . They are not worthy of one more tear or bit of anguished regret any of us have. Let them wallow in their filth . . . drown in it for all I care. They took enough. . . . TWI doesn't get to define my past. . . I do.

TWI . . . . the gift that keeps on giving.

Misery loves company. That whole concept really worked out for LCM.

Fox loves to get people upset. They feed on it. There is an air of urgency. . . . a call to arms around these stories. It is going to become evangelical christians self-inflicted wound.

"A Christian evangelical group that works to improve the lives of underprivileged children says it has been prohibited from conducting Bible study classes in public housing projects in Tulsa, Okla., potentially violating a Supreme Court ruling that upheld religious groups' right to the use of public institutions."

The Jesus Camp is a scary thing! There are bad people who slap the name Christian on something and carry on with impunity. I guess we all, to some degree, can relate to that premise. . . no? The article is so lacking in detail. . . it leaves one unable to draw a conclusion. Typical Fox, written to elicit a response. . . fear. It could actually be a case of religious persecution, it happens to Christians, Muslims, Wiccans, and most faiths. . . at one time or another. It could be the group did something bad. . . and is justifiably banned. It would not shock me either way. One of the people I know at a Woman's Prison, gave birth to her child while shackled to a hospital bed. http://www.famm.org/ProfilesofInjustice/St...ColletteMA.aspx I know many stories of mother's dependent on the kindness and goodness of others. Some of them are first time offenders, who are spending more time in prison than violent offenders. Some rapists, murderers, and home invaders walk out sooner than these women will. There are such extenuating circumstances in these cases. . . to hear their stories is to have your heart broken. At least my bleeding heart. So if this group is legit. . . and are providing a wholesome place for the children of inmates to go for a few hours. . . it is a real shame they are no longer welcome. Why ban them? Because they are Christian and the Jesus Camp exists? Because LCM is out walking free? Because there is no God? If I could roll up my sleeves and get to Tulsa. . . I would. . . I can't. . . are you going to do it? So, IF IF IF they are a good group. . . I hope they get to stay. The more people helping. . . the better. Some Housing Authority projects in this country put war zone's to shame. A safe haven is a big deal and sadly a drop in the bucket.

P-Mosh, I don't know if you are interested in selling it another way. . . . but, we sold a car on Craig's List. . . not much hassle and it went quickly. We got the price we wanted. Another thing, although this is a bit off topic . . . . . but, buying a car on Craigs List is pretty easy too. Last year I bought our son a Nissan in May. Excellent car. . . the girl basically gave it away. Students leaving university sometimes have to get rid of things like furniture and cars. . . . we picked up an older, but mint, Nissan for 500 dollars. Sunroof, nice stereo, clean, and it runs beautifully. It is so cute I drive it alot. . . great on gas. . . she had to sell it that day. I was the first to look at it. . . could not believe what I saw and grabbed it. My son was thrilled. Good Luck!! I love Craig's List. I have had great luck. Oh, and they caught the Craig's List killer. . . !!!

You know, I caught that too about the residents having a say. That made me wonder if something happened recently that was not appropriate. I would think, if they have been welcome for so long. . . there may have been an issue, but you are right. . . partial story at best. It was written to envoke a response. I am sure it did. Fox excels at tabloid news designed for a paticular segment of the population. They cornered a market. Having been to visit a women's prison tonight, I would love to think they are providing activities for the inmates kids. It is such a huge need. Huge. Heartwrenching and huge. I welcome all hands on deck as long as they are legit. I do get the concern about conversion of kids. But, I have been to Christian camps and rally's as well as places which provide for underprivleged kids. It probably isn't what we might think of, given our time in TWI. They are christian based, there is bible reading and something akin to an altar call, but not pressure or stress to convert. I imagine most know this sending their kids into such programs. Heck, I used to help run one. I had parents of other faiths sending their kids. It was always with the understanding we respect that. We did. Sometimes these people really do want to give and offer some place for the kids to go. They offer a Christian alternative. Sometimes they are great. . . sometimes not. Given there is not enough info and the article neglects to answer certain questions. . . it leaves us hanging as to a conclusion. Certainly by design. . . you make some excellent observations.

I think Fox just targets their audience and these are the stories that provoke response and interest. As for the group, I don't really know much about them. It sounds like they have been reaching out to this community for years. Providing needed services and help . . . along with sharing the gospel. As for children of inmates. Well, I love that they reach out to this population. With basically one in a hundred people in this country incarcerated, it is a much needed service. It seems an extension of prison ministry. I wish it were as simple as the custodial parent finding other activities. . . just not that black and white. Many, many woman in prison do not have a spouse or partner caring for their children. Many have family members, poor and burdened themselves, caring for their children. Most inmates rely heavily on others for kindness and help. Some don't really care what happens to the ones they leave behind. . . if this group is legit. . . I applaud their efforts. If not. . . why have they been there 20 years. . . someone has some explaining to do. believe it or don't. . . but some people just want to help others. . . strange but true. . . there are christians who want to reach out and love. Crazy. . . I know.

I read those other threads. People openly admitting to watching children be beaten with blood running down their legs. 45 minutes of abusing a toddler?????? The XXXX didn't prevent me from knowing exactly who did it. Verbal assualts, physical attacks. . . molestation. This is CRIMINAL. Not to mention standing by and watching, without reporting or stepping in. . . being highly IMMORAL. There is a they/we disconnect on this site I do not understand. They did it. . . we watched? The nameless, faceless "they" we always discuss. . . . was we. . . we were part of the whole. If you watched and did nothing. . . how does being in a cult exonerate you from culpibility? It doesn't and some of the stuff I read is criminal. I understand what was taught and why people stood by. . . I don't condone it. . . but I understand it. However, that is what a court calls extenuating circumstances. Wouldn't mean Jack. . . . Don't worry brainfixed, I am done with this thread.

I too am sorry for what you had to endure brainfixed. It sounds like there are many issues you are dealing with. I only wish you health, recovery, and a happy life. I never saw anyone hurt their children. . . even the limb leaders I was close to. That is NOT to say it didn't happen. I believe it did. I just never witnessed anything like what you have laid forth. Here are some things to be made aware of though. . . given the discussion. Any parent who knows that another person is abusing his/her child and takes no action to stop the abuse is subject to criminal prosecution. There are extensions or eliminations of time limitations for charging criminal offenses related to child victims. Meaning, if you subjected your child to abusive situations and did not protect or remove them for their saftey. . . .you can be prosecuted years later. Child abuse is a criminal act. To admit that you subjected your child to it or that you witnessed it and did not report it or remove them. . . is technically admitting to a criminal act. If you have ever sat in a courtroom and watched a prosecutor, like a dog with a bone, make a case. . . extenuating circumstances aside. . . being in a cult wouldn't matter to a judge. There are many, many, many justified prosecutions regarding TWI just awaiting there day in court. I would hate to see something innocently said here. . . by good parents. .. . . twisted and used.

I don't think she is posting right now. . . but yeah, her mom is Paula B.

There is a woman who posted here once or twice. She and I knew each other in TWI. She grew up in TWI with a single Mom. She had been a wow with her mom and they were living in a Way home when I knew them. She was a teenager back then. I wasn't too much older than her. She was 16 I was 20. I actually had a nice car at one point in TWI. . . my family bought it for me. I took this girl out to the mall and taught her to drive a stick shift. We just drove around for hours. . . laughing. She reminded me of that when caught up with each other here. She remembered I was patient with her. . . and that she had so much fun. It is funny because I had forgotten all about it. . . but, it was a good time. I did it because we had picked names out of a hat in twig and had to do something nice for the person we drew. I got her name. I would have done it anyway, but the reason I did was twig. How I knew her was TWI. . . . She said she had never forgotten, it was a happy memory for her. My brother's first wife taught me to drive a stick shift. I was 16 and remember it well, it is a happy memory for me. This girl was about the sweetest kid. . .happy, well adjusted, and grew into a lovely woman. I never saw her mom mean to her and everyone around her just adored her. She is married and has kids of her own now. It was so nice to reconnect with her. . . if only to hear she has had a good life and is happy. Hubby and I had been talking fondly of them only a few weeks before I saw her posting here. Go figure. . . I had done something nice for someone. . . while in TWI. . . and it became a happy memory for someone.

I hated it. I remember as a WOW witnessing to a girl (Which was unusual because I am female) and she nicely tried to tell me TWI was a cult. Of course I had heard that before, and tried even harder to convince her it wasn't. I remember the look on her face, pity and shock. Being at the limb and under the watchfull eye of the limb leader J.C. . . . I used to get such guff for not going door to door or making my WOW family do that. At least we didn't shave our heads . . . wear sheets. . . and sell flowers at the airport.

doojable, What you posted is a pretty good understanding of individuals and a healthy perspective. Thanks for that. . . it touched me.

I guess it was about as clear as mud to me. I must be dense or just not understand sweeping generalizations and one size fits all for lives lived. I felt like posting on this thread in truth because I found the intial thread a bit insulting. . . the ensuing back tracking and muddied clarification haven't left me any less offended. I love this. . . Kumbaya moments. Yep, that is what my time in TWI was. . . a big old campfire. Rape disguised as healing was not limited to the motorcoach, abortion was coerced as a form a birth control, but okay with God. . . . stalking was a pass time for some bored Corps. . . . poverty a way of life. . . Way Homes filled with dysfunctional cult members who may or may not be clinically insane. . . you took your chances. WOW a year of life lost to corporate abuse. . . Screwed up lives and years of recovery. A few nice people and good times salvaged from that mess. . . from years lived in one's past. . . . and I don't get it? I get it. Maybe individual recovery requires some of us to have more than one perspective. Maybe I just wanted you to get that. I didn't demand ANYTHING from you . . . explanation or clarification. I just don't agree with you. But take heart. . . the calvary will ride in. Rumrunner, I should have listened to you in the first place. . . .

I have to agree with T-bone . . . as time passes I don't use such broad brushstrokes to remember my time in TWI. Can I gently point something out to you. You start out this post with a huge assumption. You assume that :"what i don't understand is how come people think that if the good times are viewed with an eye other than what chockfull aptly called "pollyana" that means they were any less good or must in some way take away from the experience or the people involved?" I just have to ask you. . . who said this? Who thinks this? Why assume that is how we view our individual and varied experiences?. . . This seems to assume some of us see things in black and white. Life is lived in shages of gray brainfixed, even our time in TWI was not black and white. but i am asking that people look at the whole and how those good times and good people were used to keep people around. didn't anybody else experience any leadership from the twig level on up using the good stories and the good people as "examples" of the "abundant life"? look at the green card again sometime and then compare those "promises" to your good experiences and then maybe ask yourselves if that had anything to do with keeping you in the way either consciously or subconsciously. Yes this did happen. . . no doubt. But, some of us forged friendships around other things. Young moms and newly married couples. . . I used to hang out with a group of women who had or were having babies at the same time I was. If you are a mum, you know that this is a pretty consuming time in one's life. I had back to back babies. We never really talked about TWI or VP or "the word". We talked about pregnancy, nursing, and DIETS. We swapped maternity and baby clothes and we shopped bargains with each other. We clipped coupons and fixed up our homes. We shared fabric and sewing machines, curtains and furniture. We helped each other move, we ate meals together, and we talked on the phone. I knew them through TWI. We used to take our kids to Little Folks or Children's fellowship together. We used to have lunches. I knew these people through TWI. . . we were in the same branch. But, it was not all about keeping us around. We became friends. I would have hung out with them if I wasn't in TWI. They were nice people, a bit nutty, but so was I. There were other places I lived that were different. I was a WOW family coordinator. . . single and with other people and yes, much of that was designed to keep us in. It was forced family and friendship. . . in situations which made it from need more than choice. Even more. . . other places and people were different. I lived in a Way home with a woman I swear was the spawn of Satan. I still give a shudder when I think of her. is it unthinkable to separate out those good times and good people and look at them with the understanding that it was all while in the middle of a cult and it was all a part of the lure without also feeling like looking at such things takes away from the good times or the good people? because backing away from the individual instances and the individual people and looking at the whole does not take away from either but does allow one to comprehend how they were duped and manipulated. What makes you think we have not come to terms with that? I know I was manipulated and duped. I have said it more than once on this thread. I am pretty sure most people here know . . and know the extent. I am under no illusions as to what I was involved in and how I was used and manipulated. What makes you think that there could not have been genuine friendship. . . despite the cult? People are multi-faceted. They like each other. . . or they don't. When forced into a familial relationship because of "the Word" or the "Household" it is one thing, but sometimes people just click. One of the best friends I ever had became my friend initially because we both liked Elton John. and i'm am NOT saying that it was the good times and the good people that duped and manipulated anybody, but i am saying that if there had not been those good times and good people then who would have stayed involved in the way international? and i am also saying that most likely not very many would have stayed which means that i am also saying that those good times and good people were used by the machine to keep people as victims. A good part of the reason I stayed in the Way was because I thought I was serving God. Scratch that, God was lucky to serve me. I was psychologically persuaded that a bizzare collection of beliefs was actual Christianity and I knew the bible better than most ministers. To leave would be to turn my back on God. It would be to walk away from the ONLY place I could get the truth.To leave the hedge of God's protection and die a horrible death. Now, some of the people and places I lived. . . we fed off each other and kept that alive. But some times were different than others. Not all black and white. Life had a way of carrying on while in TWI. As I changed, and my circumstances changed, my priorities began changing. It was also the time I was becomming an adult. I was 19 when I went to twig. . . 26 when I had my last child. . . Do you see what I am saying? We still lived our lives. Hubby was 17 when he took the class. . . 25 when we married. He was in 15 years . . . me less. It just took us awhile to make the break, but it began a few years before we left. I know it was the same for many I was around. We all left together, the entire state basically, and it wasn't too difficult for most of us. Everyone's experience, while similar is still unique.

I think our outlooks may merge at some point. I won't let them steal anything more from me. Meaning, they don't get to taint the few good memories I have, so I hear what you are saying. Same idea. . . differing implementation. I too won't let them have too much room in my present, but when I look back, as sad as it is, that is a good chunk of my youth. Being the all consuming lifestyle it was. . . living, working, and playing together. . . under the illusion of the greater good, it is there. They just don't get the few bits they didn't manage to already ruin. Thanks.

Because the discussion is about TWI and the "good times". That is how I knew her, through TWI. Had it been the Peace Corps, Navy, or Dallas Cheerleaders I may have attributed them. And gee. . . this has gotten almost as fun as TWI was. Only now I don't have to justify my memories, who I remember, or what I attribute.

I wouldn't give TWI credit for that Potato. . . I wouldn't give them credit for anything really. But, that is not really what was posed in the initial thread. However, TWI is how I knew her. It is how I met my husband. . . We did actually share some good times together Waysider. I can remember one night she and a few others came and dragged me out of the apartment to go have some fun. We had a blast. We really had fun. We drank. We laughed. . . and we ended up sitting on a hillside until dawn. . . really talking. We connected. Sometimes I really miss her and the sweet friendship we had. And yes, I said. . . if you want to talk about why I was broke. . . regret. . . and missed opportunities . . . I am in. I get it. I really understand. I have railed on more than one occasion and DO understand why people are hurt, devastated, frustrated, and angry. I know they have to work through these issues. But here is the thing. . . I can't change it. It is what it is. . . and frustration, though justified doesn't change that I had some fun. And yes Ham, I do understand that the purges really weeded the few stragglers who had at least a modicum of humanity. The late 70's and 80's were not that great either, but I think perhaps a bit more tolerable. My past in TWI. . . as pathetic as it is. . . is what I have to work with. If wishes were horses I would have ridden away before I started, but that isn't going to happen. So, I work with what I have got. I have plenty of sad tales, but this thread posed the question about the good times. I did have one or two while in TWI and met some good people. I met more than my share of ba$tard$ as well, but who didn't? That was the norm, not the exception.

RumRunner. . . . that sounds alot like 200 level course work to me. I am, after all, a novice. I have yet to see anyone on this thread defend TWI or VP. It wouldn't be me. However, sweeping generalizations tend to frustrate me. Sweeping judgements made on an entire group of people because we were all involved in an abusive cult. . . is insulting. Even DWBH didn't know what was going on back then. He was right there. Once we found out. . . many of us left and stopped "Feeding the machine". So, how are my few lousy nice memories an affront to anyone? No one has said they were partying with VP on the motorcoach or living large off the ABS. If I remember, with affection, the woman who drove me around in the hot southern sun. . . in a car with no AC and change scraped together for gas. . .dragging her two small kids along . . parking with a brick behind the tire. . . so I could get my kid to his countless Dr. appointments. . . how is that wrong? No one asked her. . . no one demanded she do it. . . she knew I needed help and she was there for me. She didn't get any glory. She got sunburn. She was a nice person. Now I have to look back on her with disdain. . . no thanks. If you want to talk about why I was so broke, missed opportunities, and regret, I am in. . . but, I can't change it. So, I look back on the few GOOD people I knew with some affection and gratitude.

I think she is dead now. She was beautiful. . . .when I was a kid they played that movie "Tammy" on television. I have wanted to live on a houseboat ever since.