geisha779

I think you have to read Psalm 22 and really consider what took place on the cross Leafy. Consider it based on the understanding of a VERY holy God. . . and a Savior who took on our sins. . . "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" What is death for the unsaved? Can God look on sin?. . . . What is the Father and Son's complete and perfect relationship? Lot's of question's to consider. I think he cried out quoting psalm 22. . it actually reveals an amazing love. God's plan. . . This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Didn't He take on our punishment? The full force of God's wrath? Did God pour out His wrath on Jesus? Are we now saved from the wrath to come? All the parsing over, Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, may effect your theology, but it will never change your heart. . .I think if you take some time and consider what happened on the cross. .. . it becomes clearer what He said. :) I know one thing for sure. . . I wish I had never heard of VPW. . . what an absolute waste of time.

I am so glad your heart is comforted. . . if someone has a problem with that. . . it is just too bad for them. Yes, God talks to me. . .maybe not in the way we learned about in TWI. . . but . . . when He does talk to me. . . . . . there is no question or guessing about it. I think He speaks to all of us. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.

Eck get's my vote for his comment last year when DiceK went 19-3. . . "Everytime I watch this guy pitch I want to throw up" In all seriousness, a hall of fame pitcher doing the color is hard to beat. Especially in the middle of a pennant race! I like it with a team as deep in pitching as the Sox. I would like his opinion on Smoltz/Penny/Masterson. Beside's I always thought he was easy on the eyes. :) That mustache. . . classic 70's. I say Wakey starts the All Star game.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rvw_aramaic.htm http://www.seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm

Like Linda Z I don't wanna get all doctrinal, so, I will say, IMO tongues via TWI were counterfeit. The "ministry" was a counterfeit. . . the confession without genuine repentance was counterfeit. . . and the Jesus we confessed as "Lord" is basically unrecognizable as the Jesus of historic Christianity. There is that whole rotten fruit thing . . . at some point we have to contend with. But again. . . just my opinion.

Frank, I love that you love that movie. It might be considered a chick flick, but you found guy reasons to like it! :) Too funny. I went over that bridge. . . I think. . . it was coming down from the upper. . . into the lower, so that must be it. A loooong suspension bridge. I love Christopher Guest movies. This is Spinal Tap, Waiting for Guffman, Best in Show, A Mighty Wind and For Your Consideration. All have about the same cast. . . are basically ad-lib and are sooo funny. Around our house we often quote lines from these movies. . . my son is the best at it. The Castle is a great Aussie movie, and Hawks is my all time favorite English tear-jerker. What About Bob is another one that is funny. We quote that alot too. Anything with Bill Murray.

Jim, Hubby and son met Peter Yarrow who wrote the music and added to the poem, Puff the Magic Dragon! We know Paul Stookey enough to call him. . . . eeeeeh . . . friend? We saw him more before he moved away. His wife Betty is a minister. We met Mary Travers as well.

I know where you live. . . that sounded ominous. . . :) What I mean is. . . it is a beautiful place. . . very artsy community. I live down the "Hill" from you and in the "Valley" where people might pass through on there way to the prettier parts. Is GB near Lenox at all? That is another place they love to go. . . there is a very nice "Spa" there. I was hoping to get up there, but we had to fire someone and I didn't want to do it. It must be just stunning right now. . . . if people get the chance. . . they should visit the Berkshires. It just doesn't get nicer than that.

I saw a "Reba" episode once. . . If you go to 6.45 of the 7.00 minutes of the youtube. . . she sounds just like we did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iab-36TDdTA

What VP taught initially was a subtle departure from historic Christianity. . . it eventually evolved into a radical embracing of metaphysics, he knew what he was doing. He knew what attracted people. He came out of that time when people were turning in droves to the Word of Faith movement. I bet, at times, even he was surprised by how far he could push the envelope. He was not stupid. He was a sociopath. . . . Singer not Sanger. . . sorry. . . . Sanger was Planned Parenthood.

That is exactly what I was about to do. It is something I took notes from awhile ago, but would NEVER find again. Thanks. brainfixed, It might be an interesting study for you. . . the why's and wherefore's of cults. Steve Hassan has so much info out there. An ex-moonie. The psychology behind them. Sanger. . . also important research. There has been a distinction made in this thread that is not really fair IMO. . . and that is the issue of choice vs forced. I don't think it is all that cut and dried. Which is why I balk at corporate responsibilty. It was VP's brainchild. . . he went after a certain group. . . he took advantage of social unrest and the counterculture. . . he knew what he was doing. Check out what he was ALSO looking for when he went to CA. Baaaaaaad man.

Absolutely true. But, I don't think VP was a minister. I believe he was a cult leader. . . .an actual con man. Outside our little fold. . . he never really had the public trust. TWI is a closed group, most cults are closed to public scrutiny and accountability. Given the dynamics on this board. . . and the wide range of recovering members. . . it is nearly impossible to gain a consensus as to what TWI actually is. . . a ministry. . . a religious organization. . . a christian group. . . or a cult. Even the defenition of cult is heatedly debated, ironically, often with criterea learned and established from within the cult. When someone here defends VP, excuses, or glosses over his actions. . . it is frustrating and insulting to the victims. It is a painful dynamic. Having regained my sense of justice and the ability to determine right from wrong. . . I am able to make the distinction. One of the things a cult will do is lead one away from their natural inclinations. Enviroment plays a huge role in personality and behavior. . . "In other words, given a powerful and engaging situation, people often react to it in a uniformly similar fashion, regardless of personality differences." This personality change. . . becomes firmly established in some people. I believe the reason some people (years later) retain many of the teachings and perceptions of TWI and the myopic vision which allows them to gloss over such actions. . . is the same reason most fell for it in the first place. Easy answers. A cookie cutter solution for the myriad of troubles life throws at us. That is what PFAL and TWI initially offered to us. After that, it was a gradual persuasion with this foundation and the slow reconstruction of our "understanding." Some people still feel that TWI taught them the answers they would never have gotten in life. The "truth". The meaning of it all. Some will still defend this reconstruction. . . as truth. Bitterly defend it. When the one who taught them this. . . is exposed and challenged. . .their whole identity is challenged. Having been conditioned to prioritize human compassion and empathy towards the bottom of the totem pole. . . it never shocks me some lash out and defend this man. I am usually appalled, but my compassion extends to them as well. When I was a little girl and someone asked me what I wanted to do when I grew up. . . being in an abusive and very destructive cult. . . was never my answer. People don't join cults. . . they are manipulated and persuaded into them. Only 5-6% of people who get into cults have psych problems. Cults don't want these people, they want intellegent and functioning individuals. Productive people. Anyone can fall into a group like TWI. It usually happens during a transition period, a low point. . . lonliness can be a factor. There are all kinds of reasons. Many of us go right back to what we were doing before TWI. . . some of us go screaming into the extreme opposite direction. . . and some of remain committed to the solutions we think we found. . . while recognizing SOME form of wrong doing. You hear it here alot. "It was messed up, but they still taught us the word blah blah blah". As angry as that gets me. . . as frustrated. . . as evil as it is to defend such a man. . . I also recognize that these people are part of TWI's most tragic legacy. People who don't regain their true self. . . or that natural sense of right and wrong we were persuaded away from.

Oh my. Why did they let him do it? Think about it. . . you make such a great point! Okay, the family is gone. . . LCM is gone. . . there are only a few faithful minions hanging about. . . but, who is left there with ALL the money. . . the property. . . and can to do as they please? Those two women. . . . who don't really hide their affection for each other. . . are in each other's pockets, and have the freedom and means to do as they please. They let him purge the place and then finished the job, knocking it down to a manageable size. Tell me this hasn't been going on for years. It isn't about "biblical research" or "Moving the Word over the world". . . . It is about a romance.

I just had to highlight this. . . beyond chuckle worthy and right into laughing out loud. LCM's comments . . . . in the links you provided. . . . reveal a very twisted perception of women. . .an unstable individual . . . and someone who took his own perversions and applied them to biblical teachings. There is quite a paper awaiting some Psych student. My personal favorite. . . the devil was trying to take down CAMPAIGN REFORM!! Classic.

I give it a 98. . . nice beat, easy to dance to. . .fits Vpee to a tee. . .

That is so true. . . and. . . I would still be yeilding some kind of authority or control over to a dead, drunken, abusive, rapist. Funny, I am just not into that anymore. The question that begs answer, is how would that possibly aid healing? The LAST thing I want is for someone else to feel responsibility, guilt or shame for something they didn't do. Especially people who are victims of a sort themselves. Please note, I am not trying to be offensive, I have just wondered what anyone could possibly gain from this.

Well, actually I did tell you it was mostly fear and the belief that TWI was the only place that had the word of God known since the 1st century. . . that kept me in. :) The "Stand" was the other thing. Same thing potato said. . .I relate to that. Any good times were just a by product of people getting together. . . had to move that word over the world. We ambassadors had a mission. We replaced Christ. :) TWI moved us around like crazy. . . WOW. . . Corps assignments. . . it was not really conducive to long term relationships. I don't think they wanted us too close for long. We came and went to different areas. . . people worked for other believers. . . we actually moved 13 times in a few years. It was a gypsy lifestyle. There were not that many good times. At all. If that is what they used. . . they did a poor job of it. I was usually trying to survive. That is also why the FEW good times and people stand out for some of us. Please know. . . I am not trying to rough here. . . but anyway you break it down. . . it is a broad judgement call on "tangled mess" of individual lives and experiences. I wasn't always in a comfy twig sitting on my bottom singing kiddie songs. I will spare you the ugly details, but I had my share of troubles. You paid a heavy price because your Mom was in a very ugly cult. I am so sorry. Truly I mean that. What I hope you really understand is that most here paid a high price too. Who do we see about that?

I have to wonder about LCM's "Homo" purge. The obsession with Eve and lesbianism. . . and the obscene rants about certain body parts of a woman. Seems to me. . . it might have been a result of certain things and people a little too close to home. He lashed out like an insane man. . . if he had foamed at the mouth it would not have been out of keeping. Could it have been some personal blow struck at his own bloated "Manly MOG" ego? Didn't seem too too long after that. . . he was gone. Who booted him? Who is left with the money. . . private vacations. . . and special friendship?? Why was he so OTT obsessed with homosexuality? Didn't he actually speak of killing people?

The whole premise of the original post by brainfixed, while interesting and accurate when speaking of a one on one relationship that involves abuse. . . . is too cut and dried to relate to the myriad of relationships and events of years in our TWI time. As doojable pointed out. . . . . . way too many actors to break it down so neatly. Were there good people in TWI? You bet. I married one. 20 plus years later, I can say with confidence. . .he is a good person. . . . it is a genuine relationship. It was forged in TWI. Do we still hold the same beliefs. . . HELL no! We were fortunate. . . we changed together. Others less so. Is Kimberly a good person? You bet. Was she a good person in TWI. . . you bet. Was her sister a good person. . . Yep. Was her ex. . . Yep. Were the good times they shared with hubby a sham. . . nope. . .they all genuinely cared for each other. He has cared about them for years, thought of them, spoke of them, and hoped the best for them. . . he STILL loves them and cares about their lives and well-being. Did I think MusicalLee who posts here on occasion a good person in TWI? No, I remember her and her mother as EXCEPTIONAL people. Actually, they stand out in my memories beyond TWI as some of the FINEST people I have known. Salt of the earth. . . down right good. Did VP or LCM or the BOT use the good times we had with these people to keep us involved. I really don't think so. . . I think it was just certain people clicked. As Rumrunner so aptly pointed out. . . there were enough BAD people and BAD times. . . even from the get-go to blow that premise out of the water. In certain circles, twigs and places. . . would you leave cash, any jewelry or prescription meds laying around? NO!!! Why? Your "brother" or "sister" in CHRIST would steal them from you. "Good times". Because we laughed and had fun when I taught musicalee to drive a stick-shift. . . or when we shopped. . .am I responsible for the abuse of others. No. . . and I didn't abuse her. . . I let her challenge my transmission. It was the only good car I owned in TWI. :( As a Christian. . . I confess a savior. . . HE takes on the sins of others. . . not me. In my faith. . . being a flawed human . . . is a given. Guilt and shame. . . bad things. . . VP and his ilk??? Well, there is a whole special category reserved just for them. . . check it out. If I am going to make wholesale judgements on an entire group of people. . . I need to be sure I have the right bad guys. How can I possibly lay guilt and culpability at the feet of people who were conned just like me. Kinda goes against that whole love thy neighbor as thyself.. . . judge not. . . . thingy I subscribe to. If you haven't forgiven yourself. . . you might be tempted to take on the added burden of guilt belonging to another.. . . .I get that. . . But, give yourself a break. . . as T-bone said. . . I say let the actual abusers bear their own guilt and shame. . . they have the option of repentance and forgivness. . . I am not going to hold my breath though. . . only certain shades of blue suit me. . . I would be turning blue waiting on that event. The injustice that brainfixed, ex, and many of us endured. . . screams out for accountability. There is accountability. . . sometimes it takes awhile to see justice. Again, in my faith, I believe there is a day coming.

I thought it a most charming censure. I enjoyed it. Point taken as well. . . . You should see me talk my way out of a speeding ticket. . .I used to think it was because I am blonde and sassy :) Now I think it might actually be I talk the poor cops to tears. But, come on. . . myopic assumption?? How often do we get to use myopic in a sentence?

brainfixed, I, in no way, want you to be on the defensive with me. I was responding to your words and ideas. . . it was in no way personal. I am often less than tactful. . . it is part of my charm. . . it works better face to face. . . I have a happy countenance. doojable That was the most amazing post. It was concise, well written, and what I have been trying to express. It had some of the best lines I have read in ages. The "Bastardization of compassion". . . so perfect. I really enjoyed reading that post and identify with that perspective. Rascal, I think you are a great champion of the walking wounded. . . good on you!!

That is quite a mouthful. . . an amazingly myopic assumption and I think I will refrain from comment.

Rascal, I am glad you identify with each other and can recieve comfort from shared understanding. Maybe I just don't get it. :) Seriously. But, included in both your thoughts are the lives and value at a given point, of others. Am I wrong? I just see it a bit differently. You, I think, know how I feel about TWI and what happened. I rarely disagree with you on an issue. Maybe I am remembering individuals . . . who knows. . . I lost two people recently and I am in a funny place. Wholesale judgements tend to send up a red flag for me. I am probably being ....y as well. I am gunning for an A from Rumrunner in Cynicism 101 after all. . . . I will try not to be too harsh. :)

Maybe there is a disconnect between what you write and what you actually mean, I choose to assume it is a communication issue, because otherwise I would have to assume it is a "verbal" slight of hand. You wrote this after Rascal expressed HER view that all in TWI were culpable for the abuse of others. Who was Jesus speaking of when he said this? The men who crucified Him. I never crucified you or met you or touched you or have even spoken to you in person. The implication here is that you must forgive those who didn't know what was going on while you were being abused. That there is some act to forgive. I don't accept responsibility for your abuse. That rests squarely on the shoulders of the one who abused you. You don't need to forgive others for something they didn't do. You DON'T hold everyone responsible, but you COULD?? Well, that does set you up as a magnaminous doesn't it? It is a thin veneer of generousity here because you then explain in broad terms, some vague concept that ultimately assigns responsibility to all. But read on. You are insulted by a few memories that belong to someone else. That implies they actually have something to do with you. I reject that outright. You were probably not even born when some of us remember a few good people and times. We are talking about complex, multifaceted, living, breathing, human beings when we speak of those involved in TWI. Each must be judged individually by their actions, intent, and according to the circumstances in which they acted. Any DECENT judge will tell you that. You may see it as similar to how you and your Mom communicate. It is just not the same thing. According to you. . . your Mom abused you. That is a complex and personal relationship with someone who you have incredibly close ties to. A history. A plethora of emotion and obviously a whirlwind of issues to work out with. It is a weak and unfair comparison. Okay, now you ARE holding ALL people responsible for some form of abuse. What is the cut-off? One month, 6 months, 8 months? PFAL grads are less culpable? Intermediate and Advanced Class Grads more so? What is the scale we are using to lay ABUSE at the feet of others? That is a mighty big accusation. . . I think we should know the cut-off. This is in response to Shellon. A woman who has apparently endured great loss and tragedy in her life and had to deal with it working through the myriad of issues that must be present from her time in TWI. I was floored by her courage and by her integrity. She does not blame others for the death of her spouse. The most painful loss we endure. Did you even read who was first and foremost in her thoughts???? Her children. There was so much quiet dignity and integrity in that post. . . I was awed. Take note. No verbal jabs. . . no blame assignment. This is so back-handed. So, insulting. To be frank, it is very manipulative. Who is it that is excusing away child abuse? Who is it exhibiting "Way thinking"? What patterns? Because, to have someone consider an issue. . .and express an opposing viewpoint. . . is not "Way Thinking". I spent six years, working diligently, to learn to think. Sound funny. I went to school post TWI and gained two degrees from very good colleges. I learned to consider an issue from more than one perspective. This one cries out for at least that. Because we are speaking of fellow human beings. . . I choose to really consider the cost of the blame game. Hardly "Way Thinking". I have yet to see anyone exhibit "Way Thinking" on this thread or even defend TWI. I have however, seen people point out the complexity of the issue regarding individuals. I appreciate that. . . as we have never met, and I would not know you if I tripped over you, but please reread what you have written. I have actually been to hell and back for my kids. I adore them. ADORE them. I have two surviving children. . . a son and a daughter. Their father and I have provided them with love and stability. . . a stellar education. . . my son goes to college this fall, a home, and the knowledge that they are unconditionally loved. The sun actually shines from my son. My beautiful daughter has had her share of issues, but we are there every step of the way. If I told you some of the things we have done for her. . . provided for her. . . and helped her through. . . and what it cost us in our lives. . . you would probably ask me to adopt you. So, it offensive in the extreme for you to even imply in any manner that I or others are complicit in what your own mother did to you. I can have compassion and concern for you and remember some other people with kindness. I am capable of both emotions. One does not mean the other does not exist.

Yes it would be irrational wouldn't it. . . and no my initials are not LCM or JC. :)