geisha779

I should have welcomed you too tagalong. . . . welcome. . . okay, so you didn't mention what happened yesterday with the Sox. . . . bottom of the 9th. . . . two out. . . (bottom of the line up!!) and they came back to tie it from a 5 run deficit!! Winning in the 11th!! Hey Mstar. . . were you there for that?

And it was indeed the bottom of the drambuie glass that he said he saw through darkly. . . . . especially as he uttered those now famous last words.

I drove by the exit for Acton last night and thought of the Panarellos. I am so sorry for their loss. How sad for those kids. At one point there were thousands of us. . . maybe the ratio of untimely deaths is not out of keeping. Though it seems to be. I have had 3 women pretty close to me die within the last three months. All fairly young. A woman who I was friendly with died last week of a freak septic infection thing. It has been strange. One drowned on vacation, one died of cancer within a few weeks of diagnosis, and now the infection took my neighbor and friend. I don't know that many people. Who knows? We did go without the best health care for a time. . . ate poor diets. . . ignored warnings. . . it might play a part in the early deaths. It is really sad when kids lose their mum. . . parent bury their kids. . . and beloved spouses are gone. How will they ever wake-up and come to terms with what they have been involved with now? Funny though. . . they all usually find a church to have the services in. . . . they should step into one now and then while vertical.

And that lack of healthy respect or fear of the Lord might just have lead us to some pretty odd interpretations of scripture. Here is the irony. We worshiped the "Word". . . we allowed supposed "MOG" into positions of authority over our lives. Many were complete strangers to us. We acted as if they spoke ex cathedra. . . . . YET, let anyone say they actually worshiped Jesus Christ and the world was coming to an end. . . . we screamed idolatry so quickly. . . let them drop the Christ and worship Jesus. . . HA! They were possessed for sure. :)

I guess for me it is also bit more complex. Breaking out. . . . . I had no problem leaving TWI of my own freewill. I heard some pretty graphic tapes of LCM spewing vile filth and it was like waking up. It then took years of life outside of TWI to chip off the remaining mindset. Some might even argue I have not completed the process because I am a Christian. However, it really is an entirely different faith and I think that is actually testimony to healing from that TWI frame of reference. Even if some of us walk away . . . . how long can it take to rid ourselves of the beliefs and mindset? Years and years. . . . and even then behavior can still be influenced. For those people who want a Christian faith. . . . it is difficult. . . . they can experience difficulty socializing with other Christians . . . . going to church. . . . and it is not all about being burned by TWI. . . I think it goes much deeper in many instances. For me. . . that cult had a life-altering impact and I know it is because I learned so quickly and firmly to see things in that bizarre black and white world view. Hard to explain, but it has been a battle to come to terms with it. . . find a balance so I can again have faith in something. . . .

You had best be careful RumRunner. . . . speaking with such authority. . . . might just get you a little "cult" following. Still laughing right out loud!

I don't really think the video exemplifies Christian love or charity. They are scary people. That poor kid. But, here is the thing that bothers me the most. He can go to the gay community and he will get love, support and care, BUT he should be able to go to a "Christian" church and get the same. I just don't get it. I really don't. Hard to believe after watching that, but not all Christians feel the need to call others names. . . . make huge judgments(public or private). . . . . . . . . . . . . . oh. . . . . . . and cast out supposed demons.

I always heard he cried out "mele kaliki maka". That is the mainstream belief anyway. . . . .

Also Shellon, if you look at the bottom of the page where the reply button would usually be(bottom right). . . . there are two little icons. . . one is an green arrow. . . run the mouse over it and it should come up "reply". It just isn't marked. I did the same thing you did, until I found the little green arrow. Just to add: The other icon is a page and is to start a new topic(I think). They are next to each other.

I can only get the "Songs of the moment" thread to load to Waysider's post June 9th. It shows that as the last entry. I know I posted on there since as have others and I can't see them when I look at it. I have tried it logged in and not logged in. . . I have changed the number of replies I see on a page. . . nothing seems to work. It only shows me 3 entries per page and has it at 43 pages? It stops at June 9.

Hiway, I have restrained myself in consideration of the lone Yankee's fan here----you! LOL . . . . I don't use the apt term "Evil Empire" anymore. . . I stop myself from hi-fiving Mstar every 5 minutes and have on a rare occasion allowed the grudging respect I sometimes have for the Yankees to rise beyond the seething resentment that lurks so close to the surface. How much is enough??? Now there are TWO of you?!!! I am joking you know. but, misery does love company. Again. . . a joke. . . it is the Boston in me. . . I can't help it it just comes out! Why . . . . . I have even kept one eye on the stRangers this season. . . pretty awesome team BTW!! Seeing the Cubs win would be amazing, but a "jinx" and a "curse" lifted in the same lifetime? I don't know. . . when is the next eclipse?

Hi Sunesis, I just wanted to say I am glad to see you here sister!!! I soooo enjoy reading your contributions. . . . One of the things that I think have gotten really missed in TWI is that the gospel is not really all about us getting saved. . . it is about Christ saving the world. It is interesting how you highlight who He came for first. Hi Bride. . . good to see you too!!

I really have to agree with this statement and kinda wish I had said it. I did "SIT" before I even took the class. . . just reading RTHST . . . . I didn't fake it. I STILL believe it is bogus. I am pretty sure I was never truly born again in TWI. I have no idea what it was I was doing, but I think glossolalia is an apt description. Sure don't do it anymore and I have a better relationship with the Lord now. . . . than when I would SIT all the time. I kinda think it was mind numbing and used more as a mantra than anything else. Please know, I am not trying to disparage anyones experience and am speaking only from my personal understanding. But, when we reason it through. We were not in a nice Christian group with an actual Christian man teaching us. :( Just my opinion.

Waysider, You may have already read the articles on Dr. Juedes site concerning this issue, but it is an interesting approach and analysis by Douglas V. Morton. Here is part of it. . . the link leads to the main site and the article can be found under Biblical Research and Teaching. . . . Inhaling the Spirit. http://www.abouttheway.org/ . . . . . .The unanimous evidence, therefore, shows that the word means to "blow upon" or "breathe upon." Jesus was not inhaling in John 20:22. He was not showing his disciples what they were to do on the day of Pentecost. He actually breathed upon them and said "receive the Holy Spirit." When Pentecost came, the loud sound heard by the people was not the disciples breathing hard, following the example of Jesus, but the Spirit of God coming upon them. In light of the above evidence, Wierwille's teaching of "in-breathing" to receive the Holy Spirit is meaningless. Nowhere does scripture indicate that we receive spiritual power through breathing in, even if it is connected with believing. The Apostle Paul writes concerning receiving the Spirit: "Did you receive (lambano) the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?" The Holy Spirit is received by hearing the message of the Gospel and believing it. Any other way is considered "a work of the law" and against the Gospel. The validity of speaking in tongues is not being questioned here. What is being questioned and rejected is Wierwille's mechanistic and unscriptural teaching concerning receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues. The Way is certainly not a group from which one would want to learn about this special gift or ability. Its inability to understand this phenomena of scripture makes it a poor instructor in this and other teachings. There may be some things off or whatever in this article. . . but can you imagine what it must look look to someone on the outside looking into our odd little cult? I posted what I did because I thought it illustrated Waysider's point.

Can you expand this to human remedies as well. I bet you have so many ideas. One thing that is good to treat cuts and wounds on your pets is honey. I use honey all the time. Raw honey. I mix it with some aloe vera gel and make a paste to spread on a wound. It is a great natural ant-biotic and it promotes healing. It is imortant to clean it and change the dressing twice a day. Works like magic. It works on humans and is also a great facial. Here is a tip for humans. Dark circles under the eyes can be treated with Arnaca Montana. It is a natural remedy used for bruising.

Leafy, I think the other thing we probably have to consider. . . . is WHO he actually plagerized. That is worth a look/see too. It is interesting to look at what ideas and teachings interested VP. In some ways(with hindsight) it is easy to see why he gravitated to what he did. That "Snapping" thread laid out some fascinating concepts. . . I guess it is up to us as individuals to investigate. . . unless we have just chucked the whole thing. . . . .like me John Juedes also has a few articles. He has one on George M Lamsa. . . . . written for the Christian Research Institute. . CRI deals with many issues concerning Christian Cults. http://www.abouttheway.org/

Made me laugh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYy2DUb-deE

Well, you have to admit. . . you dooooo know how to dress for it.

They say it is funny because it is true. . . . too true. . . Christians are to boast in the cross only. . . I think we may have missed that. T-bone, There is a great little book by John Piper. . . The Passion of Jesus Christ. He gives fifty reason why Jesus came to die. I have a copy and if you can't find one. . . you can have mine. . . my treat. When Jesus cries out on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" It is really paradoxical isn't it? One the one hand, it was God's purpose before the ages began. . . .on the other it was the will of the Lord to crush him, He has put Him to grief. Isaiah 53:10 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied. 53:11. . . an outpouring of His wrath. . . smitten of God. . . and yet. . . . it was a fragrant offering to God. It was an incredible act of submission and trust by Jesus and reveals such an intense relationship between them . . . It is also a staggering display of God's amazing love for us. God is nothing if not paradoxical. I like what John Piper says. . . "The wrath-bearer was infinitely loved." To paraphrase another comment. . . . God's love is not simple or sentimental. . . the terrible wonder of the love of God.

Would you agree that those who are actually aware of the insidious nature of this little cult in nowhereville Ohio have a responsibility to address the grevious wrongs it does people? If this little insignificant group has personally affected the individuals here, in an often devestating and long reaching manner. . . . who actually, SHOULD they be more concerned with? Interesting question. Maybe it is one you should consider again, in light of the lasting effects of physical, mental and spiritual abuse. If you had once been a member of an Islamic extremist organization, and woke up to the reality of violence in God's name. . . . where might your concern be? I can't really make the leap between voting blocks, ex-cultists, and the growth of Islam. Obviously there is a difference between Islamic extremists and people who practice Islam, so why the concern about the "Spread" of Islam? Now, if I were a politician directly impacted by TWI. . . . the issue of voting blocks or TWI. . . . and who to be "MORE" concerned with . . . might actually be a quandry. . . . but, then again, I might just be capable enough to be concerned about both. Imagine that! Since a greater number of people are directly impacted by terrorism, we should forget the ones directly impacted by TWI? How so? Are we less important victims of abuse? Is the long reaching impact on our individual lives somehow less noteworthy? I will grant you it is more subtle than blowing someone up, but I could make a good case in some instances, as to it being nearly as destructive. I think you might be confusing some rather forward posts on the internet with being engrossed. I work on my computer several times a day. . . I go to different sites. If I stop and read here, add my opinion and become involved in a conversation. . . does that qualify as being engrossed with TWI? I somehow manage my life as well. Maybe you would do well to consider what it is we have actually discussed. . . the long term effect of our involvment in this cult. . . the time it can actually take to heal. . . and just what TWI has robbed people of. . . like the ability to be comfortable in a CHURCH, a relationship with the Almighty, and trust issues in general. . . . the list is endless. I think that is worth a word or two. . . even if Obama is not aware or was never actually involved in our own little cornfield cult.

OM Gosh! That really is an awesome and wonderful story. Thank-you so much for sharing that. I wish I had a memory like that.

Well, yes exactly! But, I do remember something along the lines of a teaching that indicated anyone of us could have lived the life He did and saved mankind. To think about that now. . . I have to slap my forehead, and ask myself. . . what was I thinking? Blasphemy comes to mind. The whole idea of God being Holy is a concept that was nearly nonexistent in TWI. Vp taught and lived like a man who had no clue. Cheap grace. Bought cheaply if some of those teachings are to be believed. Here is another link to that site http://www.gotquestions.org/substitutionaryatonement.html . . . by the way. . . Chuck Swindoll, who was quoted and relied upon in the first link I gave. . . is a well known evangelical Pastor, teacher, and author. A graduate of Dallas Theological. Not only the idea of death being a separation is important to consider, but also. . . what it means to live. What it means that our lives are hid with Christ. The whole concept of eternal separation from God. . . wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . so to speak. What exactly is it we are saved from?? For now. . . all die a physical death. . . . our bodies and our minds are separated. Was "soul sleep" a correct teaching? . . . . That is why this topic is nearly impossible to really discuss here and somewhat pointless. Many still believe in the ideas espoused by VP and other aberrant groups(NOT used as a pejorative!!). . . soul sleep, unitaianism, annihilationism . . . These are not traditional Christian teachings. I can see how one group of beliefs would lead to one conclusion. . . another concept a different conclusion. Makes perfect sense. To me it is just another illustration of how far removed from traditional Christianity we really were. How all those teachings and most basic beliefs about God lead in two different directions. What I also wonder about VP . . . . is why he was almost anxious to remove the symbol of the cross from our minds. We didn't wear crosses. . . we replaced it with the HS dove. . . . we removed the cross from the chapel at Emporia, and we were always ready to tell someone it was a rather macabre fixation. . . "If He had died in the electric chair. . . " :( The symbol of the cross evokes reverence and awe in Christians. . . because of what was accomplished. If the bible is to be believed. . . it is the most significant event in human history. . . coreographed by God Himself. .. and all moments were leading to the work done there. . . mankind changed forever. . . It must be significant what we understand about it. Doesn't that make sense? But, I do believe these are questions we need to work out an answer for ourselves with sincere examination and humbleness before God. There is no quick easy and obvious fix IMO. . . It is a foundation issue. . . pfal was a rotten foundational understanding.

I don't know. . . I had an easy time in childbirth. Piece of cake. T-bone, Do I remember a teaching about how anyone of us could have done what Jesus did? I may be wrong, but I kinda, sorta, maybe remember something like that?? I guess it is a question of what actually happened on that Cross. Is death a separation? What it means that He became sin that knew no sin. What does substitutionary death really mean? Jesus not only took on our sin, but the sins of the world. I think it is amazing that God tells us that. . . "I will never leave you, nor forsake you" and Christ standing in our stead cries out. . . why have you forsaken me? What I have often wondered is why VP embraced the stance he did? What was it about a Holy God who cannot abide sin. . . and a substitute who bore the full weight and wrath due us that unnerved VP. I don't think it was a pursuit of truth.

Well, I wouldn't want to take that logic and apply to anything else he said. . . when He said "Man shall not live by bread alone.. . ." he was just "feeling" peckish. The "reality" was. . . This is where TWI and historic Christianity. . . one gospel message and the other part company. This is where one Jesus, just a man. . . and the other Jesus,. . . also part company. If He did not fully recieve what was due us. . . are we really saved? It was our sin He carried. . . Here is a much better explanation than I could give. . . http://www.gotquestions.org/forsaken-me.html Question: "Why did Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" Answer: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It has been difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that He was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As His own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient - God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him. However, Isaiah tells us that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:4-5). He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He was made a sin-offering, and He died in our place, on our account, that He might bring us near to God. It was this, doubtless, which caused His intense sufferings. It was the manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which He has not explained, that Jesus experienced in that terrible hour. It was suffering endured by Him that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be saved from eternal death. In those awful moments, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. It was at this time that 2 Corinthians 5:21 occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.

It never crossed my mind you were asking with disdain. My husband and I were sitting here discussing the topic. What you said about wanting to believe that He wasn't alone in anguish on the Cross is exactly what I was trying to address without addressing it. You were not the only one attracted to this idea. Something to consider. . . or not. . . is that God reached down to you BECAUSE Jesus was alone and in anguish on the Cross. God turned away. . . so He could turn to you. Again, the greatness of what He did. That was my point without saying it. . . . Sorry to disturb. . .