geisha779

I guess that whole hospitality thing mentioned on occasion in scripture. . . is of no real importance.

A grandiose and deeply inflated sense of self-importance may breed paranoia. . . and who else is holding God propped up in our day and time. . . the "adversary" may get them. . . does a glock work on him or is a sawed off shotgun better? Everyone knows that all true ministers of a loving God full of mercy and grace are packing heat and patrolling the grounds for cop-outs (A.K.A the one's whose money they are now living off). . That IS how you love your neighbor isn't it?

Really not that good for your waistline or artieries though. . . . I guess occasionally is okay. . . I save my butter use for lobster ans crab legs. . . yum!

Well stated. Obviously I agree with you here. . . but, welcome to a Postmodern world. Ironically those unwilling to define something as evil or bad. . . . when met with it face to face. . . often change their tune quickly. Everyone knows the number 911 and will use it when they need help. Robbery, rape, torture, home invasion, kidnapping, and the like are all very bad if they happen to the individual. Justifiably, they are the first one's to cry foul. The moral argument is difficult to avoid when talking about whether or not God exists. . . . and is often very helpful in explaining actions such as Billy's. Also, atheists can be fine upstanding moral people, and usually are. . . Why is that? Although good and bad can be defined by a 5 year old with an unvarnished innate sense of justice. . . adults who embrace relativism seem to stumble over this one. As you probably know, we call this the The Axiological Argument, that values. . . morals. . . and good exists in more than a subjective manner. . . . it is an argument somewhat problematic for the relativist. I used to have these discussions quite a bit. . . IMO they are not eww, but interesting and really helpful in establishing one's own understanding as well as communicating with someone on more than a surface level. Kinda fun. :) Pretty handy in the times we live in. . . . where things are relative, but people have rights?? Go figure. . .

This is all very cryptic. . . who is the "us" that you want the opinion shared with?. . . it is in the title. To quote Meg Ryan "Happy - smile. Sad - frown. Use the corresponding face for the corresponding emotion."

Prior to 2005 in THIS country people have been executed for crimes committed while teenagers. It was only with the Supreme Court Ruling Roper v Simmons did the death penalty for juveniles become cruel and unusual punishment. There are no accounts of the stoning of teens ever being carried out in the bible (pretty sure) and you would be hard pressed to find one in Jewish history. . . children WERE killed during the holocaust though. TWI probably would argue this point. TWI should have used the more traditional Boogey Man or the state of Texas to scare their kids. It would have had more teeth.

I really think you make sense. What happens when such an imperative(imagined) life and death goal is unreachable? Every single day? Anxiety, fear, dread, obsession. . . these are all things that can happen. No peace. In a subtle way it is a relinquishing of coping skills. When bad things happened. . . we didn't deal with them in a normal fashion, there was the added burden of self-blame and shame for our lack of believing. Very fear based . . .It was the fear in the heart and life of that mother!! Most of us didn't have that kind of fear until we took the class. . . . and became so enlightened.

I don't agree with this at all. . . other than perhaps TBN and Benny Hinn's ilk. . . Satan is mention something like 30 times in the NT. . . less in the OT. . . I think?. . . .People do not focus on this stuff. . . Many of these groups are becoming far more service oriented. . . . That seems like a broad generalization. If anything, they lay their trials at God's feet. Most evangelical groups believe strongly in the sovereignty of God. They believe Satan has to seek permission. . . so to speak. All is subject to God's will. . . . How much more clear can "Resist the devil and he will flee" be. . . . ? How did we miss that in TWI. . . he was under every dust bunny and inside every book jacket. BOO!!

I repudiated PFAL and VP a long time ago. . . . and not to immediately embrace a more traditional understanding. . . . but, to just not care or believe in anything. After completely throwing the baby, bathwater, and tub out the window. . .With a clean slate I was slowly able to gain some faith. . . but, it was the example and deep steadfast goodness of others that intrigued me. Not some secret knowledge of the bible as it has not been known. . . . or some promise of abundance. It is the doctrine's people still cling to. . . espoused by VP. . . that keep one from noticing the bible actually describes VP perfectly. He masqueraded as a true follower of God, yet look at what his "word" has produced. . . what his doctrines have produced. The suffering and pain and loss for such a small group as TWI is indescribable. Rape, suicide, adultery, child abuse, divorce, anger, resentment, cruelty, psychological problems, and a out right rejection of and anger toward the Jesus of Christianity in many many cases. It produced some bizarre form of spiritual pride and elitism. . . a love for secret knowledge held by a few select at the expense of any real love for mankind. It produced paranoia, mocking, isolationism, an obsession with devils, a rejection of the cross, depression, anixety, fear, and in many cases a real inability to connect with others. Not to mention it ruined church and fellowship outside the group for many still looking for the Christian faith. He was a drunk. . . so filled with lust he raped, abused, and destroyed young women somewhat in his care, to satisfy his own sick desires. He was a serial adulterer. His mouth was full of foul language, mocking, bitterness, and so much bile that he took the Lord's name in vain while "teaching" the bible. He justified his actions with the most incredulous excuses. . . he was "spiritual" enough? But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Why would anyone still believe what he said? Especially if the bible holds some authority with them? By their fruit. . . . no? What always leaves me gobsmacked is when I hear that yes, VP was a bad guy, but that doesn't mean he didn't teach the truth. Well, yes it does. It really does. He KNEW the Christian faith. . . he rejected it. He walked away and sought out something else. . .he didn't want Christianity. . . he didn't LIKE it. He found a way to justify a vile lifestyle, usery, and lust. We got caught up and tricked. . .

The idea of subjective morality is very problematic. . . . . . the discussion of evolutionary morality vs. a moral law giver is probably more relevant. . . . . it acknowledges the existence of value to begin with. . . the idea of a moral vacuum is one thing. . . no morality another. Evil exists. . . I could give you graphic examples. . . good exists. . . Tom gave us a nice example. . . I could give you many more. . . they are not the same thing. . . something in us allows us the ability to tell the difference. Where it comes from and what it is. . . . therein lies the debate. :)

"How droll" is an observation. . . not a pejorative or questioning of your response. The only way it becomes one is if you assign it a motive. We wouldn't want to that, because we may then have to define something. Conversely, Bloshevik, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, abusers, and drug dealers must not be labeled as bad, according to the line of reasoning you propose. So, let's empty the prisons of violent offenders. . . doesn't seem fair. Although we do have incarcerated those who would kill someone for the change in their pockets. . . who is to say this is wrong? Laws are so arbitrary. What makes the choice of a life partner important? One person is no different from another. . . . why love someone more? Animal attraction? If so, why marry? We would have to define someone's attributes better than another. . .to desire to share our lives with them. . . no? Reasoning it out. . . . love is actually an illusion because defining value would be necessary. Sorry, but, we must place value on things. . . define good. . . and evil. . . it has to come from somewhere. . . BTW. . . the option of being "fooled" vanishes when we cease to define or underscore something as right. . . or good.

Yes, to give weight by underscoring something as good is just silly. . . and in fairness. . . defining or underscoring something as bad is equally as inane. . . so. . . . what was the problem with TWI? How droll.

There is a provision in the law for disobedient children to be taken to the elders and stoned. . . . are there accounts of this ever being carried out? Sadly, I have no problem believing this was taught as justifiable behavior.

If Jesus is Lord over all. . . and Christian's don't actually make Him Lord, but are simply confessing and acknowledging who He really is. . . and these are values He espouses. . . love your neighbor. . . wouldn't they then be human values? These are things we admire in anybody(or should). . . no matter their faith. . . why is that?

I am not sure what was said after I left. . . but, I never heard anyone say that the bible gave parents the right to kill a disobedient spouse or child. That would have penetrated my foggy brain. I have always been disgusted and shook about the practice of female infanticide in rural parts of China and India. . . . even when I was in TWI. I would have taken note of that. Martindale did say something about . . . . if it were old testament times. . . and homosexuals. I can imagine it was not a leap for him to include cop-outs or disobedient "believers". It wouldn't have been worse than swatting a fly to him. . . wasn't there even a song? The "adversary" was always nipping at our heels. . . typical TWI. . . giving the devil control over the power of life and death while totally discounting God's role and purview in creation. Hmm, we had more faith in Satan's ability than God's. That is something to consider if we dare. Maybe that is part of the soul killing you mention. . . . or part of the cause of beatings and cruelty. We had some really obsessive traits in TWI. . . . we did train our eyes on evil.

Probably in many ways. . . that is one of the reasons I visit the site. . . but, at least here, I know I was not alone and it helps.

Exactly. And who here wasn't tricked? We got caught up in a nasty religious system and people got hurt. I have no problem admitting I was fooled. What am I suppose to do now. . . keep calling myself an idiot. . . I was an advanced class grad and WOW, but didn't go into the Corps. . . am I a little less silly than someone who did? We were ALL fooled.

Well, I went to a meeting with JAL at someone's house after we left TWI. . . . that didn't feel right. I left.

Tzaia, Wow, I tempered my first response. . . what gives? For someone who was also mired in CES/BS how do you even know you are not STILL caught up? What was you it you said on another thread. . . "I can't live in smugness like I did when I was involved with CES" If it helps you to understand better. . . I was uneducated and coming off a two year party high. . . I actually DID question the things said about abortion, nearly had my head bit off and bible verses thrown at me. . . I didn't know the bible . . . I was intimidated. . . and 19. I thought I had found help. . .

England LOVES their CCTV. . . long before we had traffic cams here they were handing out tickets in the mail without ever physically pulling someone over. . . . in GB you could get a picture of yourself breaking some traffic law . . . in the post. . . and were expected to pay. The article mentions "Ministers hope the move will reduce the number of youngsters who get drawn into crime because of their chaotic family lives, as portrayed in Channel 4 comedy drama Shameless." Sorry, can't be embedded.We are usually a few years behind them in things like this. It will be here soon enough. . . . but, consider what some of these inner city council flats are like. You would NOT walk in there unarmed and would certainly not take your kids. Who is watching out for these kids? The local Councils? It appears it is just getting worse. Remember the riots in Paris? Maybe they have just stood up and took notice. Edited for really BAD grammar!

Did you ever hear those ads on the radio where they speed up the end while they read the disclaimer? Wasn't it a lot like that? Don't take my word for it. . . but God told me so?? So, really, you can take my word for it. To add: What happened to those who did tell him they checked it out and he was wrong. . . how long were they around?

I just don't see many places where the doctrine of the trinity is called a theory. . at least not in Christendom. . . in the land of cults or ex-cult world maybe. . . but, it just struck me as funny. :)

We had a cat named "Chubby" who used to bring in live animals. One night I woke up to this growling noise. Chubby had climbed to the second story bedroom window. . . broken a screen and brought a live RABBIT into the house. He was not content to kill it on the floor. He had it on our bed. With us in the bed. Hubby, who wears glasses was fumbling for the light and then his glasses(he is blind as a bat) I am screaming and dancing around on the bed. . . Chubby is trying to kill the rabbit. . . . it was comical in the extreme. Not as funny as chicken stuck to hubby's head. . . but. . . close. We chased that cat around until he let go of the rabbit. . . . then the rabbit took off into the house. . . it took awhile to catch the rabbit. . . let it go. . . and somehow keep that determined cat away. Cat's are so much fun.

Although I am not a big fan of the emergent church movement. . . and I am a little familiar with Mclaren's book series. . . . it is not really my thing. But. . . I just wanted to say what a really cool idea you have here. You could call it . . . . Tzaia's Book Club. I will be interested in what you pick next. . . . maybe I could then join in. . . . I tired to read his Finding Faith?? maybe??. . . can't remember the name. . . but, I kept waiting for the point. . . . it was too frustrating for me. I am not a post-modern thinker. . . . can't get my head around it. I just think this communal book reading is a great idea though and wanted to lend my words of support.

I know you were looking for ways to preserve them, but I was reading a magazine yesterday while waiting and found this. . . . Zucchini fettuccine. . . Use a vegetable peeler to slice thin ribbons from 6 courgettes. . . Place in a bowl and set aside. . . in another bowl whisk together 3 tbs extra virgin olive oil. . . 1 TBS white wine vinegar, 1/4 tsp dijon mustard, and 1/4 tsp herbes de provence (I just make this myself) salt and pepper to taste. . . toss the ribbons with the vinaigrette and 20 basil leaves for a "pasta" salad.