geisha779

Yeah, that was for you. :) Pretty self-explanatory.

Most Christian denominations all adhere to the same core doctrines. . . . there is diversity sometimes even within the same denomination. . . . and many of these are reform movements. It is not always a bad or confusing thing. . . .at all. It doesn't have to indicate disunity(is that a word?) either. Most differences are in the expression of the same faith. . . .some sprinkle. . some dunk. . . but, most baptize. Christianity is a person centered faith. It's focus is Jesus Christ. Christians believe that He is the way, the truth, and the life. . . . not the book, the book is a means to learn more about Him and help to build a relationship with the person. With groups like TWI and it's offshoots it is a book centered faith with a divergence from Christianity in understanding of who Jesus Christ is. . . .The gospel is not actually something for us to do, but it tells of something that was done for us. . . . these groups work so hard at understanding the "word" . . . as if the relationship is with "it". I wish they would all just find a nice bible centered church and decompress. . . . that is not likely to happen as ex-way cannot fully participate in church. . . they don't hold to the same beliefs about Christ. That IMHO is part of the insidious nature of TWI. . .

Well, I am with George, I see enough garbage and really didn't need that rolling around my head. I am still semi-traumatized by an after-school special I saw as a kid. Truthfully, I am surprised he received two life sentences. . . rapist don't usually serve that kind of time. This crime was particularly heinous and the counts against them were multiple which is why the punishment could actually fit the crime. . . . . . They don't execute people for rape. . . . so other than chemical castration. . . . what punishment would have been an option? Now, if this doesn't illustrate that evil exists. . . I don't know what does. . . . but, it is hardly the worst crime I have ever heard about. . . .

Graphs. . . charts. . . JP2??? The reason I say you take a narrow biblical perspective is because you take one thing Jesus directed we as Christians to do. . . . and extrapolate or to be blunt. . . justify. . . an entire political agenda. You magnify one portion of scripture and interpret it to mean something it doesn't. It doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you saying that it is a grave evil for the government to offer social assistance programs? Because that is not the way Jesus commanded Christians to treat the poor? What does one have to do with the other? The last time I checked we had a secular gov't . . . a Muslim rep. . . atheists. . . gays. . . a Jewish Senator. . . we are not a theocracy. Not a Christian nation. Why then do you call what they do as our reps. . . collectively. . . evil and not just evil but, grave evil? Are they lining people up and shooting them in the streets? Are they ignoring the poor by offering no assistance? No, those who represent we the people in gov't are doing what we as Christians are told to do. It is still the same principle. Romans 2:14&15 They show the work of the law without having the law. . . but it is written on their hearts. It is an innate knowledge of God. . . people value and practice the most basic of tenets. . . compassion and goodness towards others. This reflects what is written on their hearts. Christian's don't have a monopoly on good. It doesn't usurp your responsibility. . . or mine. . . . it doesn't take the burden off from us as Christians to help those who need it. Jesus still commands us. . . in fact. . . He commands us to love our enemy and to give to them as well. Now, if you were to say. . . I don't have to give. . . I pay taxes. . . as a Christian THAT would be wrong. Jesus commanded us to do both. It is surely not an either or proposition. You say it creates a culture of entitlement. . . that is quite a judgment to make on an entire group of people. . . do you know everyone on assistance? Their circumstances? To my ears. . . when I hear that. . . it just sounds like rhetoric. We as a society caring for our needy is not a sin. . . where do all good gifts come from? The earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof. . . who does it all belong to? By not understanding that it all belongs to Him and He sets up the authorities and uses what He will. . . . Do you know who is actually not giving God the glory here? You. God's provision can come from anywhere He pleases. He rained food down from heaven. . . When it is provided, we give Him the glory. . . by calling His provision evil. . . you are missing the mark. But, you are right. . . it isn't working so we as a nation need to be doing more. And. . . I am not trying to convince you of anything. . . . I just think it is an indefensible position to have. . . . along with giving people a hole wide enough for a truck to drive through and speak ill of God. But, I appreciate your time. Take Care.

". . . an ostensibly Christian group. . . " That says it all. This action is the latest in a series of similar legal actions by the Way International which raise questions concerning the free exercise of religion. In 2007 The Way International sent a letter to The Way, a Baptist church located in Grant County, Kentucky, threatening to sue them over use of the name "The Way"(3) That same year, they filed a lawsuit against "The Way Ministries" claiming trademark infringement (4). The term "The Way" is actually a term found in the Bible for the early followers of Yeshua (Jesus) (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23 & 24:14). In this latest move, The Way International seeks not only to control use of the biblical term "The Way," but also seeks to ban the accepted Scriptures of a Messianic Jewish Group. What is wrong with these people? Their arrogance knows no bounds. They want to ban a bible?

Linda, I feel your pain sister. . . . . .

"Culture of entitlement" is often code for ". . . the poor are unworthy, lazy users and deserve their grinding poverty. . . " and it doesn't usually come from those living hand to mouth.

Mark, We don't live in a Christian country. . . . be glad we as a people embrace Christian values. You can't tell someone who is not a follower of Christ to do as He commanded. They reject Him. Why would you expect them to individually do what He says? You seem to want to impose that view? Jesus doesn't impose Himself. . . . he offers Himself. When we as a society seek collectively to do the things He would have us do. . . .you call this "grave evil". . . . I think it is a small miracle. You say it creates a culture of entitlement. . . . you, that is your opinion. . . . . I look at it much differently. . . as I have seen people on the brink of despair receive assistance. . . . it is a blessing. . . a safety net. . . . poverty is cruel Mark. We as Christians need to be working within our culture to effect change. . . . with the gospel. . . once you start imposing narrow parameters on people who are seeking to help others. . . . you have something ugly and you are headed to a man made imposed theocracy. To Add: When did food, clothing, and shelter become an entitlement? Seriously? If we receive these things with thankfulness. . . . I just don't get it. . . . . . I never will. . . . would you rather they go hungry. . . . I cannot believe that. . . so be glad people down trodden and hurting have a good meal . . . . be thankful God does provide.

Mark, That wasn't the interpretation in post 13 at all. . . . it is you who have actually extrapolated that definition. Here is what I said. . . I am not a socialist nor do I advocate a socialist state. God wants us to depend on Him and Him alone. . . . okay. . . at the end of your work week. . . tell your employer God has you covered and say no thanks to your pay check. Who are we to tell God how He will provide for those in need? Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 67 Pay your obligations (to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor. Government does not take the place of God. . . but God uses governments. . . for His purposes. In our society. . . which is governed. . . we have social welfare programs in place to help care for the needy. Thank God. I think you are arguing a point that was never made. We have a secular gov't which embraces the care and concern for it's citizens. . . . you call this a grave evil because it is the STATE doing this and God wants us to depend on Him.. . . . my point is. . . all good gifts come from God. It IS God who gives the bounty of food on the table. . . . whether it comes from the food stamp program or your paycheck. . . . one way or another. . . the food, clothing, and shelter we have ALWAYS comes from God. . . NO MATTER how it is paid for . . . . . a gov't voucher or a paycheck. God sets up government for His purpose. . . . to wield the sword. . . . keep the peace. . .not even a tyranny will allow lawlessness. You want to protest the use of gov't money collected in taxes for the use of social programs. . . . SOCIAL PROGRAMS. . . I think your outrage and use of hyperbole such a grave evil is sadly misplaced. Is it any LESS God's blessing because it doesn't come from the source YOU believe it should? I pointed out to you that God has even used bad men for His purposes. . . He can use what He wants and when hungry people eat. . . it is a blessing from GOD. I never said Christians should not resist gov't. . . . read Acts chapter 5. . . . it is better to obey God rather than men. . . . and it is also right to have regard for good things in the sight of all men.

You may have a point, but Gov't programs are consistent over the long term. . . . and that still doesn't make them "grave" evil.

Thanks for the update :) :) :)

I don't really think God's providence works that way. . . I believe He works within the framework of our freewill. Kinda awesome. He is able. . . American's actually give billions to charity each year. We are some of the most generous people on the planet. Didn't many social programs start as a result of FDR's New Deal and Johnson's The Great Society?

The government isn't usurping anything from the individual. . . get out there and visit the prisoners and serve the poor. . . who is stopping you? WG, I assume you mean this. . . Acts 17:26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. or this Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Romans 13:1

Wow Garth. . . coming from you that means something to me. . . . Mark, We live in a secular society not a theocracy. If you are being prevented from speaking the gospel. . . obey God rather than men as the Apostles did in Acts 5. Here in this country you are afforded the right to choose your own religion or faith. You can preach the gospel without fear of incarceration. These protections are written into our Constitution. . . a big deal. You live in a society that embraces the ideal of bearing one another's burdens. A secular society which seeks to care for it's poor. Kiss the ground you walk on Mark. The authority or rule you live under is put in place by God. He determines the bounds of our habitation. . . . everyone. You get 60-70 years here. It is not your eternal dwelling place. . . . we obey so God is not spoken ill of. . . we don't give people an opening. In TWI we had a real knack for twisting things so that evil became good and good was evil. We had a narrow scriptural view and were convinced we knew what was right. . . when in truth, and I think you might agree we embraced bad things. Compassion for the poor is a good and Godly thing. . . . how often did Jesus remind us of the poor? Yet, when we as a society use a portion of tax money . . . .collected by law . . . . to help the less fortunate, to reach out a helping and. . . . it becomes an ungodly thing? No it doesn't. Well, you could tell me that it doesn't really help. . . some hyperbole about human dignity. What good is dignity when one can't feed their family? Reach down and grab your bootstraps. . . pull as hard as you can. . . you will never lift yourself that way. But, if you are down and someone reaches down with a hand. . . . you may get up. . . . . if you are really heavily burdened it may take two. . . . sometimes we have to carry people until they can stand. . . . some may never stand. . . do we as a society step over them? There are places where the poor sleep in the streets. It is not just the Christian who has compassion. . . we are all made in His image. . . . those who confess no faith can be fine moral and kind people. . . . who KNOW the difference between right and wrong. . . To add: We were posting at the same time. . . . protesting is not illegal is it?

Mark, Since your post is so long I didn't want to copy and paste. . . . God's providence does not exempt you from civil obedience. . . nor from paying your taxes or from obeying the laws of the land. We are to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. . . . what you think you understand about grave evil may in fact be wrong. You may have taken a political agenda and mingled it with a narrow biblical perspective and come up with a uniquely American Christian phenomenon. . . . truth, justice and the fear of social values. If you break it down. . . what is your complaint? That your taxes are being used for the health and welfare of others? And that this somehow goes against what is right in the sight of God? Because you believe God didn't say that is how to see to the care of others? Because it is the State using your money to help feed, clothe, and house those less fortunate? Widows, orphaned children, those disabled and not able to care for themselves? Or is it just unwed mothers that bother you? People with addiction issues? Take another look at what it is you are opposing. The help, care, and concern for those less fortunate. You are justifying this as evil. Why? Because you are taxed? In a society where you live and enjoy the benefits afforded? Because it is the State offering these helpful programs. Food on the table of a hungry family is God's bounty whether it comes from food stamps or a pay check. As long as it is received with thankfulness does it make it ANY less a blessing??? A hungry kid get's a school lunch on your dime. . . My goodness. . . the grave evil just sucks the air from the room. Jesus said. . . pay your taxes. . . the society in which you live says. . . part of this money is going to help the poor. . . this reflects our values as a society. . . . not some conspiracy against God. Take another look at what you think is grave evil. Not a chance it is close. Paul tells us to obey the laws of the land. . . pay your taxes. . . and Mark says. . . I have to, but I will speak out against such grave evil. . . . what evil. . . that part of your taxes are used for the good of others??? Yeah. . . okay?

A yes or no answer doesn't work. . . nor does trying to explain to you about God's sovereignty. . . God is justified in overthrowing anything He wants. . .the rest you figure out.

Mark, You are not seriously telling me that taxes impede charitable giving are you? Because of net and gross? Well, I guess you are. . . not much I can say to that kind of logic. I think you really miss the heart of the matter. One thing is not the same as the other and God does not say if your taxes are too high. . . don't give. He says pay your taxes. He says give. And he tell us do to things without whining or grumbling, moaning and complaining. Do you think God actually NEEDS your money? Money is a great heart indicator. Render unto the government what is theirs and to God what is His. . . doesn't get much simpler than that. . . . Jesus did not say if your taxes are being used this way don't give. . . if it has an effect on the net don't give. If you want to give 10% of your income. . . you know what you earned. . . give it. ________________________________________ As for the examples you cited about countries that overthrow despotic government. . . did you read the verses I gave you? Did you follow my line of reasoning? God is Sovereign over nations and NOTHING happens that He does not allow. God does not carry out His will in spite of man. . . we are ALL subject TO His will. . . . and if He has a purpose for something. . . Forget it. . . it is not worth more of my time. . . you figure it out.

I have no idea what you mean by the last part of this. . . I was just sharing part of MY life with you. We are to love our neighbor as ourselves. . . if your neighbor or enemy is hungry do you check their employment status first? I would just read the specific context of the verse you quote and why Paul said this. . . or not. God looks on the heart and I don't think Jesus is going to be mad at us if our worst sin is we were too kind. I don't question your heart in the least. . . as I have told you before. . . you have helped me. :)

Taxes are not charity. How they are dispersed is not charitable giving. Do you understand the difference?. . . . Taxes do NOT impede charitable giving required of a Christian. Perhaps your understanding of this needs tweaking. Even the most dictatorial governments prevent lawlessness. . . even or especially the most tyrannical ones. What's next. . . Hitler? Like I didn't see that coming. Hubby owes me five. Pharoah, Pilate, Caiphas (Who prophesied!) Did God use them? He used all of them. . . . for HIS purpose and they were bad men. . . He used the most TRAGIC of events. . . . the death of His Son for good. . . for His glory. It is not about us, but about God. His purpose which may not be ours. Should be. Persecuted Christians in dangerous countries submit to laws and governments. . . .even to the point of death, but still perfectly obeying God. . . Did Jesus perfectly submit to God's will? Did He overthrow the Romans? Isn't that what they were crying for Him to do? Was God's providence and sovereignty what happened? Just as it is in the examples you presented. For the LORD Most High is awe-inspiring, a great King over all the earth. He subdues peoples under us and nations under our feet. He makes nations great, then destroys them; He enlarges nations, then leads them away. Ah, Lord GOD ! You Yourself made the heavens and earth by Your great power and with Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You! Who should not fear You, King of the nations? Let the heavens be glad and the earth rejoice, and let them say among the nations, "The LORD is King!" From one man He has made every nation of men to live all over the earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live. . . God chose Israel and then raised up Egypt to enslave them. . . then delivered them and drown the Egyptians! God is sovereign over nations. . . nothing happens that He does not ordain.

I used to work in a place where I was routinely thrown around. :) By 200-300 lb men!! I had to restrain them more than once with applied non-violence. That is the rule. . . applied non-violence. Sometimes it worked. . . . . sometimes I booked and sometimes took a few punches! I was no match size and strength wise. Yet, I loved that job. These men could not help themselves. . . had anger issues and the cognitive ability of a three year old. One guy broke someone's neck. We were partially state funded. Respected their rights and tried to treat them with dignity. . . it is a fine line when you are giving the most basic care. Sometimes it is about keeping people, clean, dry, fed, and having a place to lay their heads at night. Who would care for them if there was not gov't money? Their own families could not keep them. . . state hospitals closed. . . and they would be dead if not for these funded homes. We agree then that those who cannot help themselves are a given? How do you judge those who will not help themselves? What is the criteria? Does past mental abuse and trauma count or is it just able bodied that makes one capable? What about anger issues in those adolescents? Does that come from willfulness or something deeper? Is it evident to the untrained eye and can we be the ones to make these snap judgments? Should we leave it to the trained professionals and in place systems to judge? Can we work within those systems to better them? Helping those who maybe really can't help themselves. . . not everything is so black and white. ". . . . . but I do not have any interest in helping those who will not help themselves. And that's Biblical." Is that really a biblical sentiment? Let us hope God's compassion goes beyond that . . . . because we didn't save ourselves. . .1 Thess 5:14 And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be longsuffering toward all. Take Care. . . :)

Hey WG, It is the HCSB(Holman Christian Standard Bible) the version I use . . . Romans 13:1 is about civil obedience. Some theories have it as an interpolation. . . I don't think so. . . but that is me. Taxes don't take the choice out of charity. . . you can still give to whomever you wish. :) Sounds like a tough place you worked. . . I am sorry you have no sympathy for these kids. Most of them sure as heck break my heart. That is no way to grow up. No way to live.

I am not a socialist nor do I advocate a socialist state. God wants us to depend on Him and Him alone. . . . okay. . . at the end of your work week. . . tell your employer God has you covered and say no thanks to your pay check. Who are we to tell God how He will provide for those in need? Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the [authorities] are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. 7 Pay your obligations (to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor. Government does not take the place of God. . . but God uses governments. . . for His purposes. In our society. . . which is governed. . . we have social welfare programs in place to help care for the needy. Thank God.

markomalley, I take it you don't consider yourself a "social justice type"? Yet, I think I am safe in concluding you are a Christian? How do you separate the two? Do you not embrace the ideal of social justice? Isn't that what you look for in part at the return? The last will be first? Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great. . . . A society embracing the care and concern for citizens unable to care for themselves is a noble, right and Godly thing. Because Jesus didn't say it was the role of government through taxation it is somehow a misguided societal and governmental responsibility? On what planet? Our government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. . . . our society is governed. . . . Wow. . . talk about missing the forest for the trees. That does not prohibit the responsibility of churches and Christian individuals. . . who should be at the forefront setting examples, but our social welfare programs reflect the guiding principles with which our society functions. GOOD principles. Those who are able to give . . . those who have been given the most. . . and all good gifts are from God. . . have the GREATER responsibility to care for those in need. And as you say. . . we cannot serve two masters. . . God and mammon. God is a bit socialist in this respect. . . take another look. And. . . . He takes care of all the sparrows. . . not just the Christian ones.

Tolerance. . . an interesting concept. . . not often displayed toward the Christian(it is still PC to Christian bash). . . . but, on the other hand there are some groups claiming Christianity as their faith who really do invite it. . . . Here in the doctrinal forum one would think we would be somewhat isolated from this on threads designated for the serious discussion of Christian issues. As long as I have been here this has never been the case. As long as the topic's don't invite it. . . I don't think tolerance need mostly be reserved for the non-Christian. . . This threads topic was "Oops" . . . . hardly controversial. . . . _________________________________ We have ammendments in place within our Constitutions which protect us from a theocracy. . . . Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. The term "separation of church and state" doesn't appear in the constitution. Neither does "right to privacy". But, the concept and ideas are there. . . . just like the term trinity is not in the bible. . .or rapture. . . but, we see the concept and ideas. We use theology to express them. . .and we have the judiciary to interpret the concepts within the constitution. . . . to rule on the constitutionality of an issue. In recent history. . . I think the closest we have come to something akin to a theocracy is GWB, whose foreign policy decisions where based in large part on his personal beliefs about God. That his orders came straight from God and that he was on a mission from God. Your point Sunesis, ". . . . for a theocracy to work, the people would have to believe, without a doubt, that their "ruler" was called of God, and walked with God.. . . . " Is right on IMO. Isn't that what happened in part with GWB? The far Christian right did believe he was called of God and was doing God's will? What a mess! So many people. . . women and children have died because this one man thought his mission was from God almighty. It appears his faith was often the guiding force in his decision process. . . without the aid of reason or empirical evidence. . . the ends justifying the means and outright lies part of his arsenal. Is that really what is happening with Obama? I have to wonder. After 8 years of war and the systematic dismantling of our constitution and economy. . . . someone new comes along. He offers hope to a really weary nation. . . (I am surprised the misery index wasn't trotted out more). . . .He is young, he energizes, he offers change. . . . and he is seen as a saving grace for our country. The first African American President in a country whose recent history includes segregation. . . it is a huge historical event. . . we have changed. . . evolved and it is evident in his election. We can fix this mess. He is viewed as a savior of sorts. . .as was Reagan, FDR, Lincoln and others. Hopefully, the right man at the right time. . . . desperately needed. I just don't think it is remotely in the same category as GWB and his mission from God. As far as reaching out to Muslims. . . . wouldn't that be a good thing. This is a population we have persecuted for the last eight years. . . . we have not really been tolerant of Islam as a whole. . . . despite GWB saying we were not at war with a religion. . . it really seems we have been on a crusade. As far as Obama not yet having a church(I didn't know this). . . . given what happened at his last church. . . the scrutiny. . . the judgments. . . is he really free to worship where he wants without subjecting an entire congregation to public inspection? Seems almost kind on his part. And what if he is fond of the Muslim faith? It is part of the tradition he grew up with. . . He has the right in this country to worship as he wishes. But, he is not attending mosque, just reaching out. That is no threat to us as a nation. . . . Is he really using religion as a platform or basis for making decisions? Romans 13:1 says God is control. . . once Obama thinks his secret mission starts coming directly from God like GWB. . . then we need to start worrying. . . . I get your points. . . I just look at it differently. :)

Scripture somewhat categorizes believers. . . babes, feeble minded, unruly, weak, uniformed as Paul mentions in 1 Thess. . . . . . . . Then there are those who are false teachers. . . . . and those led astray by false teachers. . . Concerning TWI and it's offshoots. . . I don't think they fall into the notional category of Christians . . . I don't believe they fall into any Christian category. They are a cult. . . . and that term is actually gracious. VP, LCM, and the rest of the cabal who founded, designed and sustain TWI are aptly described in scripture. . . . but, not as Christian. . . . When a Christian overseer is described they must not be. . . . arrogant, prone to anger, a drunkard, violent, or greedy for gain. VP and LCM, Rosalie, and the rest. . . their description in scripture is every bit as ugly as their actions are in life. These actions are laid out on this site for anyone to read. . .rape, serial adultery, slander, false witness, greed, lust. . . .arrogance, the seduction of the unstable, speaking great blasphemies. . . . the list is so long. The cult. . . the teaching. . . the doctrine. . . the fetid fruit of suffering and destruction. . .is not what you call notional Christians. Scripture has another name for them. Accursed springs to mind.