geisha779

I don't think Twinky wants us to argue, so I will just add. . . . I absolutely agree with you that the real work comes in deciding which things are are reasonable and which are not. . . . we do this in many areas of our lives. Using the rules of logic one can come to a reasonable conclusion with evidence on which to base the Christian faith. Meaning there is enough evidence provided to deduce a worldview. Not an absolute proof, but all worldviews require some faith. Faith without reason or logic is ridiculous. . . .to suspend one's critical thinking in the embracing of faith alone leaves open the possibility of falling into the same trap we did before. People defend this application all the time in Apologetics. . . . a reasonable faith based on evidence and deductive reasoning. Critical thinking! To say people suspend critical thinking skills to embrace faith is to short change some very bright people who actually do reason out and defend this stuff. I don't count myself among them(bright people) but, I don't embrace Christianity because I don't think. . . . it is actually quite the opposite. I probably think too much. Ooops to add: What I find troubling is that we as ex-cultist come at this argument from an aberrant perspective and that does shape our understanding and reasoning. In my opinion, we should strip ourselves of all preconceived notions and if interested come at it from the logical and skeptical POV but, give it objective serious consideration. Which may require some effort and time. It is a painful process, but if you feel that tug or pull to examine your faith. . . it is not such a bad thing to do.

Logic. . . . which is the study or rules of correct thinking . . . . principles that guide rational argument or discussion. That is a good place to start. Especially when evaluating a philosophy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

Really? I think that Christianity can be reasoned out as a logical worldview that takes a little faith. . . .and which one doesn't? And unless you believe you hold complete knowledge of truth your above quote is quite a statement to make. Even atheism takes some faith. I would be a fool to base my entire worldview on faith without reason or evidence. . . .or critical thinking. . . . . it would be meaningless. . . . as I would not even understand why I believe as I do. . . . I seem to recall I did that once before. . . . Fool me once. . . . .

Yes. . . . exactly!!! Because of what fundamentalism has come to mean. . . . I think it is the word people get hung up on then. . . . . because you and your house more than likely adhere to a set of fundamentals. . . . it is almost impossible not to. . . . we are all fundamentalist in some respects. . . . even if we religiously adhere to what we term a non-fundamentalist faith or worldview. We make our judgments determined on a basic set of principles which guide our lives. Christian fundamentalists or what we now call evangelical's simply do the same thing. . . .the two terms have become intermingled. . . . ..although they did not start out as the same movement. . . . . . I would call myself an evangelical because I adhere to the same basic principals regarding the Christian faith and there are not too many denominations who don't adhere to these same beliefs. But, I would not term myself a fundamentalist because of what the term has come to mean. I submit you can't be a Christian unless you do adhere to the basic tenets, beliefs, creeds, or fundamentals of the Christian faith. . . . just as you are not a Muslim unless you adhere to the 5 pillars of Islam, or you don't convert to Judaism unless trained into and persuaded of that set of beliefs. . . .Hindu's also have a set of beliefs. . . as does Buddhism. Having a fundamentalist faith or life is unavoidable. . . . being what we now understand the word "fundamentalist" to mean. . . is avoidable. . . . Ironically this thread highlights the same argument which sparked the movement in the first place. . . . the need for a codified or creedal set of standards by which to determine a faith. Evangelical's and most denominations do this based on the bible. . . . and within the mainstream(how do we get that?) basic tenets are not as different as you may believe. Differences often lay in what denominations highlight or reform than within the shared codified set of beliefs. Much of what we rebelled against when we got into TWI was mainstream Christianity. We actually fell into a harsher form of what we thought we were opposing. What we were trying to redefine. To my ears much of what has been expounded on in this thread makes perfect sense. . . . it is still in opposition to the mainstream. . . . but, Christians are not that easily persuaded from their faith. . . . because it is more than faith in a book. . . . it is faith in a person. . . . and in the providence of God. . . . sounds like circular reasoning to some, but part of our faith is the testifying of the Holy Spirit to us. . . . that these things are true. . . . we have the witness of transformed lives. . . and the bible itself. . . even with it's flawed and fallible cannon it is a heady witness. . . we make decisions everyday . . . important decisions based on less evidence than there is for having faith in the God of the bible. Paul's vision aside. . . . the worldview of salvation and faith is a wondrous and believable thing for many like me.

As a morphed, uniquely American, now political, phenomenon. . .I would hope one would reject it. . . . but, having fundamental Christian beliefs is not a bad thing. . . . I believe in objective truth. . . i.e., truth having a corresponding object. . . . I also believe life takes a little faith. :)

Fundamentalism. . . . was a movement that arose to combat what many considered modern or liberal theology. . . . it was a movement that gained momentum in the early 20th century. It was an attempt to affirm the fundamentals of the Christian faith. . . not really a sinister movement. . . . it has morphed into something else. . . . it is in large part a political movement now. . . . . . IMHO. . . and pretty much an American phenomenon. Although TWI doggedly hold to their own fundamentals. . . . they are not really recognizable as Fundamentalists and in general are not accepted by the Christian community at large. Exactly because of the fundamentals TWI clings to. . . . . . JCNG, Are the dead alive now. . . . their understanding of The Holy Spirit. . . . etc. etc. Not only does TWI qualify as a cult because of the mind control techniques(Lifton's 8 criteria) it practices. . . . but, from a Christian perspective it qualifies because it denies certain fundamentals. Everyone has a worldview. . . . but, . . . and this is me. . . . rejecting one based on our experience with an aberrant biblical faith is short sighted.

A little Mystery Science Theater 3000 T-Bone style? The day the circus came to NK Ohio. . . . <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqpVzRgQfo&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqpVzRgQfo&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqpVzRgQfo&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Big hair, shoulder pads, dark lips, purple eye shadow, leg warmers, Jordache jeans, Chinese flats, Michael Jackson, big hair metal, glam rock, rock ballads, Luke and Laura reunited, SNL Eddie Murphy, Alice, Cheers, Night Court, Growing Pains, Full House, Mash finale, Ronald Reagan, Bush Sr, Hands Across America, Stock Market Crash, Berlin Wall came down, Chernobyl, Baby Jessica, Exxon Valdez, Aids, Challenger, SF Earthquake, PTL scandal, Dirty Dancing, Brat Pack, Back to the Future, Karate Kid, Footloose, Vacation, Blues Brothers, Arthur, Bill & Ted, Ghostbusters, Rainman, Yuppies, Junk Bonds, Max Headroom, Garfield, Care Bears, Nintendo, Rainbow Brite, Madonna, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Blossom, Dynasty. . . . and DollyWood opened. Now you are caught up. :)

I didn't try to make a case for the socialist state usurping the rights and authority of individuals. I simply said. . . . obey the laws, pay your taxes and tolls and be a good citizen. What a novel concept. Where is it we can live where we don't have to pay taxes? I opposed Bush's war. . . . there is nothing wrong with peaceful dissent as it is legal in this country. As far as you being a sinner. . . . join the club, and in reality you are probably a better person than I. . . . . . . But, I will continue to pay taxes and continue to support social welfare programs for those in need. . . . call me crazy. . . . I figure it is all a part of grown-up life. Besides. . . . I really like the down and outers. . . the prisoners. . . . and the outcasts. . . . my peeps. . . . I guess I fit in.

I have a friend who is a linguist and she loves to expound on the etymology of words. . . . she is fascinating, but I was speaking of the translated word. . . . maybe this explanation will help. http://www.carm.org/...god-create-evil As I mentioned before. . . evil is the absence of good --- opposite of good. . . and it does not follow it had to be created. . . . it is allowed for a time, but I disagree it is created. . . . good isn't created is it? Just to add. . . . we need to have a high view of God. . . .

If you look at newer English translations. . . .that word evil in Is 45:7 is translated disaster or woe. . . it is an assumption to declare it means God brings into existence moral evil. . . . Yes, God is sovereign. . . . absolutely. . . . I am with you. . . . and funny, I had this conversation with hubby this morning. . . .exact same thing. . . . but, you can choose to do good or to do bad. . . . we(Christians) all sin. I am not sold on the doctrine of predestination. . . . I still have questions about it. . . . the more I consider it in light of verses like God would have all men to be saved. . . . faith comes by hearing. . . . and what I understand of the attributes of God. . . the more I struggle with it. God is just. . . and will judge us accordingly. . . . this all gives me pause to consider. . . . but, I will not lay evil at His feet. . . . they meant it for evil. . . . he meant it for good. I really agree with you up to a point. . . . that God used Satan with Job. . . . for His purpose. . . . where we differ is that God designed Him to be evil. I believe it unfolds and evolves according to God's plan too. . . .but, that God is righteous and holy and not guilty of creating evil, and still able in His perfect design and plan. . . .but always who He is. . . . good. It is not out of His control, yet He is still innocent of evil. . . . or even abiding evil. . . . because it will be judged. That is why it is so amazing and awe inspiring. Mere Christianity by CS Lewis is a great read on this stuff. . . . as is A W Tozer's Knowlegde of the Holy. . . . . if you are interested.

Another way to look at it is that God created angels with freewill. . . . to be obedient or disobedient. . . . as well as man. . . . and the choice is really ours. . . . .that God allowed the condition for sin is a reasonable assumption. . . . because with freewill we have the choice to accept or reject Him. . . James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “[/url]I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. What is evil? Can you bottle it. . . .eat it or mow it like grass. . . . throw it like a rock? Isn't evil just the absence of good? Like darkness is the absence of light or cold the absence of heat? It isn't something God had to create. . . . it is simply a rejection of good. . . . the result of a freewill choice. God allows evil to exist but, it does not follow that He created it. . . . If God didn't allow for both than our service to Him would not be freewill but obligatory. . . .

These are not really doctrine's are they? At least not in the sense that they are a collective set of codified beliefs or principles held by TWI. With the exception of #6 in an odd form of annihilationism taught by TWI. The law of believing actually would be a doctrine right? These are more results from held doctrines. . . . but, these things you mention when taken to extreme do become very harmful in a Christian life. Christian's are called to live holy. TWI took them to an extreme. . . . justifying behavior. Being positive does not replace true saving faith as was very often the case in TWI. Moral imperfection was often code for "It's all grace. . . " and we know what that became. Unless one is a Puritan most Christians don't have a negative attitude toward sex. . . . however, premarital sex is not the best according to scripture. Christian's worship God. . . .that is what we are suppose to do. . . something sorely lacking in TWI and often mocked when expressed by those outside the group. . . . so, most Christian's don't think God is angry with them, but they fear Him in reverence and awe. . . . we are His servants. In TWI we held a different belief about God. . .as if He served us as we served the ministry. My take anyway. :)

Which ones are beneficial? I am sincere in my question? I am curious as to which ones you believe benefit someone?

They are performing(loosely termed). . . . they are not going to be spitting on the crowd. . . . besides, we all had that same glazed over look. I didn't have a real honest emotion for years. . . .it is called suppression.

How do you not understand what you are doing when you are pimping young girls for someone? Seriously. . . . how? Bring a man a young girl for sex. . . . simple enough premise. . . . . . show her the ACORN tapes. True Pastors know not to pimp the flock. Pretty straight forward. If she had changed. . . . TWI would have renounced their false teachings and reached out to the Christian church. . . . similar to what a faction of the Church of God did when they changed.

Had she said "Hey, let's all go to church and talk about how Jesus acted in the gospels". . . . that might qualify as pulling away from crazy. . . . but, toned down crazy is still crazy. . . .just the quieter more subtle kind. . . . I think that we went off the cliff from the get-go. . . . . . . .

Well said. . . . you don't have to look through a TWI lens to see man made religion causes most of the worlds ills. . . . and scripture does still define true religion.

I love ya Mstar. . . . ROFLMAO

Which one is scarier? Which one makes NHS look evil? Non compulsory medical guidelines by a panel on bioethics. . . or they are killing babies to save money?

Except. . . . what is the recourse for that kind of manipulation. . . . we have laws for teacher who abuse students. . . . sexual harrasment laws for the work place, but what is it we have for clergy accountability? Other than church discipline? It is hard to prove coercion in a court if the affair appears to be consentual. Abuse of that particular authority is not that easily definable in those situations. Unless it is gross and habitual as in TWI's case.

I don't really think devil spirits enter into this equation. . . . but, by all means, SIT more if you are so inclined. . . my advice would be to reconsider that option and think about the actions of these youth as opposed to something that is good and does not harm others. Good. . . . bad(evil). . . . the example Mark posted illustrates evil or bad intent as opposed to someone doing or intending good. Actions, intent, consequences. . . . you are a very bright guy. . . I don't need to explain the obvious to you.

That isn't really fair or accurate. Those are medical guidelines and are not purely cost effective measures. There are other reasons they do not resuscitate a baby born before 22 weeks or give them intensive care treatment. What happened was wrong. . . . but, that it is strictly a cost effective measure is a very big assumption. NHS spends a billion dollars a year on preemie care for 40,000 infants. The guidelines were drawn up by a council on Bioethics. They are not compulsory. They are guidelines. The Doctors could and should have treated Jayden. It sounds like the hospital was wrong and are now passing the blame onto the NHS guidelines. BTW I sat in a NICU for 3 months with a preemie.

Shellon, I love your posts. I am actually a fan. . . . Hey, my kid posted a new song on My Space (this is me being creative in getting in touch :) ) when you get a minute check it out.

Twinky, I mentioned finding a nice bible believing church. I didn't say it to be mean. . . .at all. I really do want deliverance for all ex-twi. . . .we have much to be delivered from. There are qualified overseers in good churches who can help ex-cult members. It wasn't an indictment on anyone's love for God. . . . more on the indoctrination into false teaching we were all subject to. Even the attempt to run an off-shoot implies to me there is still some need for isolation. It is also actually like running a church. . .and the scriptures are clear there are specific qualifications for doing this. I am of the opinion that when someone teaches the bible. . . doctrine does matter. . . or we still end up in the same cycle of apostasy. If someone has gone to seminary or an accredited bible college and studied with qualified teachers and is working within the framework of a Christian church where there is accountability. . . that is one thing, but an offshoot implies something else entirely. Iron sharpens iron and who you are worshipping with and learning from does matter. At least in my opinion. But, that is not a judgment. . .just common sense. I didn't suggest a church with garbage being taught or bad things going on. . . I am aware this happens. . . but, in a TWI offshoot it is always going to happen. This is because what it is an offshoot from, is still bad. This is just my opinion, but I wanted you to know it didn't come from malice, it is from genuine care about those who have been exposed and influenced by TWI. I really do believe that people who have come through TWI, at least many, have a real fervor for God. . . want so much to know. . . and understand. Some of the brightest and best people really . . . . I truly believe this. . . I love ex-way. . . special people. . . I don't think we are a bunch of ex-cult losers, but I do think we need to integrate into the Christian church and learn from those who never got tricked to begin with. There are wonderful people in churches who really know the Lord and have served Him without rancor. We did get caught up in something really rancorous. They are not perfect, but we only look to one for perfection. My opinion. :)