geisha779

I have to agree with Twinky. . . . T-Bone you are very bright and your posts are thought provoking and a must read. . . . I really mean that. Yes, I have read IfD Conflict of Faith.. . . . if you liked that book you might like Respectable Sins (Confronting the Sins We Tolerate) by Jerry Bridges. . . . not quite as difficult, but a good read. I studied 19th Century British history T-Bone. . . . not really a career builder. . . . but, I love it. It is an odd thing to be so interested in, but there you have it. Twinky. . . . NT Wright is the Bishop of Durham!! Anglican. . . . He is also known as Tom Wright or affectionately as New Testament Wright. He is generally considered one of the world's leading scholars on New Testament History. I know he was at Oxford for years. . . . at Merton, but he did something at Westminster Abbey. Smart guy. I love to listen to him speak. I listened to a talk he gave with Anthony Flew. . . . now, THAT guy was fascinating to listen to. . . .I think he died, maybe? Brilliant, brilliant man. . . a philosopher and one of the biggest known atheists of the 20th century. . . . he said that atheism was the logical choice without evidence for a creator. He actually knew CS Lewis fairly well, but was never convinced about God. Until a few years ago when he became a theist. It would be similar to Richard Dawkins announcing he changed his mind and now believes in God. Big controversy. He wrote a book. . . . There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. . . Richard Dawkins said he is senile. . . seemed okay when I listened to him. There are so many good people to read. . . . but, NT Wright really makes you think about things. Hope you get a chance to check him out. . . . you might even be able to go hear him speak somewhere. :) Lucky. . . I miss England!! My kid is going next year. . . . maybe I will too. I wanted to add that given my sad history. . . . I have to be careful that I am not just adopting a spiritual pilgrimage lived by another when I read Christian authors. Is it my own understanding? Am I using critical thinking? Is that my experience with God. . . . is that what I understand from scripture. . . . do I really grasp what is being said or am I passively agreeing and adopting it as my own perspective? Lot of work really! :) It is wonderful to learn from each other. . . but, I do think God works with us as individuals too.

I heard a story. .. . . . The Parable of a Madman Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!" -- As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? -- Thus they yelled and laughed.The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him -- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. "How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us -- for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto." Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars -- and yet they have done it themselves. It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"

If you read Shakespeare. . . . I would be very suspect. . . . there is some good evidence that it was actually Francis Bacon who authored most of that work. Homer? Chuck it. . . . I think the earliest transcript we have for the Iliad is a thousand years later. A uniform truth test(that is what we call it) for ancient documents. . . . should at the very least. . . . be uniform. I know historians. . . . noted historians. . . .I slogged under them for six years. Don't put your faith in their hands. Don't be talked out of faith by them. . . . they are not infallible. Why do I even say this? If you have them in your tag line and are attempting to live by guiding principles set fort in their work. . . . you may have swapped one form of fundamentalism for another. . . . .this is said with respect, not malice. Respect for the abilities of good people to genuinely consider a point. As someone who has earned two History degrees. . . . . I love the idea of people learning history. . . . . but, I would caution that there are more than two scholars of note concerning New Testament and early Christian history . . . . more than one textual criticism. I offer a list of other well known and much respected scholars whose work I hope you will consider examining. We never stop learning. . . . or thinking and considering. At the very least consider reading NT Wright(Aka New Testament Wright) Daniel B Wallace and Tim Jones Check out some of the debates readily available on line. . . . Reinventing Jesus How Contemporary Skeptics Miss the Real Jesus. . . . Daniel B Wallace Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" . . . . . Timothy Paul Jones Who Was Jesus? NT Wright The Historical Reliability of the Gospels . . . . . Craig L Blomberg Cynic, Sage or Son of God? Recovering the Real Jesus in an Age of Revisionist Replies. . . . Gregory A. Boyd New Testament History: A Narrative Account. . . . . Ben Witherington III Searching for the Real Jesus in an Age of Controversy. . . . Douglas Groothuis Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus . . . . JP Moreland, Michael J wikins The New Testament and the People of God. . . . NT Wright Jesus and the Victory of God. . . . NT Wright The Resurrection of the Son of God. . . . NT Wright The Last Word: Beyond the Bible Wars to a New Understanding of the Authority of Scripture. . . . NT Wright Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense . . . . NT Wright. The Truth About Jesus . . . . . Paul Barnett The Evidence For Jesus . . . . James GD Dunn In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks at Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church. . . . Paul Maier Josephus: The Essential Works . . . . PAul Maier. Eusebius: The Church History. . . . . Paul Maier Fern Seeds and Elephants," Christian Reflections . . . . C.S. Lewis More Evidence that Demands a Verdict . . . . Josh McDowell Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up! The Jesus Seminar's Dr. John Dominic Crossan vs. Dr. William Lane Craig The Challenge of Jesus: Rediscovering Who Jesus Was and Is . . . . NT Wright Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament . . . . . A.N. Sherwin-White Orthodoxy . . . . . G.K. Chesterton The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? FF BRuce. . . . . . And yes, it is a very good idea to read Bruce. . . .to know what is being challenged. . . . this is the guy to read. Introduction to Research in English Literary History . . . . important to understand the truth test Modern Dogma and the Rhetoric of Assent . . . . . Wayne Booth Jesus Among Other Gods . . . . . Ravi Zacharias An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists: By the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice Simon Greenleaf

Good practical advice Shellon. Although it is good to get a perspective from those who have left. . . . I would seek out some professional opinions. . . . jumping from an offshoot to a particular textual critic may not address all of the issues which need to be resolved. Academia is a good place to dwell for a time, but it is a world unto itself with it's own code of ethics. . . . language, and hierarchy. . . . . and many many voices. It might be a good idea to deal with some of the conditioning that happens in groups like TWI and it's offshoots. . . .patterns of thinking and the idea that we can fall prey to and wed a particular position. Just some thoughts.

Or when we could use our immigration quotas to import cheap labor to build our railroads. . . . . Asians tipping the scales at that time. . . . hey, they were at least legal. I don't know who you have been listening to Roy, but it is time to switch the dial to FM. . . . or maybe some NPR?

That wasn't a very nice thing to say to you. . . . and even worse. . . . not to explain what he meant. You know the verses in 1 John about confessing sin I am sure. . . . but, you should have asked him what he says when his kid has an earache or his wife a headache. . . . :)

Well, what would be the point of critical thinking? The ability to reason right? When presented with a position or editorial what do you normally do? You listen or read with discernment. . not always taking things at first glance value. . . . you consider the position, how the ideas relate to each other, the development of the argument. . . .the evidence and the opposing position. . . . You look for identifying statements. . . . logical fallacy, self-defeating statements. . . . contradiction. . . . bias. . . . excluded middle. . . . and you evaluate according to logical consistency. Is it a deductive argument? You can also think outside the issue. . . . look at cause and effect, but be careful not to confuse cause and effect(that is a common logical fallacy). . . . and it is always important to look at an issue in historical context. How has a particular issue developed. Even. . . what is the cultural context? What is the reality? You look for the ought component. . . . A & B ought to equal. . . . C. (actually they don't ) If they don't. . . why not? It is what you do normally when you are really interested in something. . . . . when you really really understand an issue. . . . You can actually tell a great deal about a persons influence by how they frame a question. . . . . how they present evidence. Sometimes questions can be illogical because they are based on assumptions. . . . not the reality. You learn how to recognize this. . . . yes? But, it is important to withhold conclusion until you have the evidence you need and understand enough to actually draw a conclusion. . . . as you have already stated. Sounds like a great deal of bother. . . . but not really. . . . isn't it rather intuitive? Maybe for we ex-cultists there is a bit of retraining. . . . but, we are bright people. . . . :) the average cult member usually has an above average intelligence. . . . . did you know that?

Twinky, :) Critical thinking skills are not some abstract concept . . . . right thinking has actual rules. Argumentum ad verecundiam or "appeal to respect or authority" is an actual term used in argument or discussion. Within the frame work of logic. Which is the basis for critical thinking. It is an art form of sorts. George was actually giving you a really great example of critical thinking. . . .logical fallacy. . . . I just pointed out it didn't fit. I am sorry if you thought I was debating God's existence, but I meant to show that you can use critical thinking skills concerning issues of faith. . . . . which I assume is part of our recovery from the cult.

George, It might surprise you to learn that discussion with genuine respect is not a . . p. . . ing match. . . . . you may not have great respect for the believer, but the believer respects the skeptic. . . . .often the skeptic. . . . . when motivated to really start and examine the existence of God. . . . becomes the biggest believer. A belief in the existence of a God is not UNcritical. Not if the evidence leads one to that conclusion. A frustrated agnostic astronomer. . . . . Dr. Robert Jastrow, wrote in his book God and the Astronomers. . . . "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." He actually reviewed some of the evidence presented by our friend Frank Turek. . . . Who appeals to Einstein's authority, along with others. . . . to build a case for the existence of God. The Second Law of Thermodynamics, the Expanding Universe, the Radiation Afterglow from the Big Bang Explosion, the Great galaxy seeds in the Radiation Afterglow, and Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. SURGE. Read the Case for Faith by Lee Strobel. . . who answers some of the tough questions concerning Christianity. . . . he started out a skeptic. Nothing comes from nothing. . . the material world has a cause. . . . you and I have a cause. . . . we are rational creatures. . . . that rationality did not spontaneously mutate from an irrational process. . . . that is illogical. There is a billion bits of information coded into your DNA. . . . information comes from intelligence. . . . Consider the questions. . . . .where did we come from? How are we made? Then tell me how taking one of the options completely off the table because you don't like it. . . . is thinking critically. We have a book which claims within it to be inspired by God. . . . .to answer these questions. . . . we just ignore it because we don't like the conclusion? How do you frame the questions? What rules do you apply to the evidence? An appeal to authority would be short sighted. . . . . looking at cause and effect a must. . . . . but thinking critically should at the least . . . . include the options :)

An appeal to authority. . . . is what we did in TWI. . . . The bible says it. . . that settles it. . . .I believe it. . . . and that is what many Christians do concerning faith. Examining a cause and effect with relating evidence to draw a conclusion is not the same thing. The bible speaks of the cause. . . . but, before you can appeal to it's authority you have to examine if and why you believe it. It is illogical to say you come from a position of believer if your scope of understanding is limited to an aberrant form of the system of belief you are denying. Seems your perspective might be skewed. . . and with good reason. If you consider that experience a proper understanding of the faith. . . . you would have no reason to revisit it. . . . and who would blame you.

Mstar, I feel your pain brother. . . I really do. :( To top it off. . . I have had to watch the Yankees humiliate the Twins. . . . it is just a game. . . . it is just a game. . . . it is just a game. . . . nope. . . . . . . . . not working. :wacko:

I don't think anyone here could accuse Dr. Francis Collins of not using critical thinking skills. . . this is the guy who mapped out human DNA. . . the Human Genome Project. . .an atheist for much of his adult life and one of the world's leading scientists. . . . is now a believer in Christ. <object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gHVQdlNaBo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&border=1"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gHVQdlNaBo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gHVQdlNaBo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object> If it is true that my thoughts are just a random bunch of chemical reactions. . . . . my brain and mind evolved by chance and an irrational process with no reason other than astronomical luck and some magical beating of insurmountable odds behind it. . . . why would I even trust them? They have no meaning. . . .nothing backs them up. . . . . You don't get rational from irrational. . . . rational thought did not evolve from an irrational process. . . . something causes our minds to be rational. . . our acts to be moral or immoral. . . . and our universe to be something from nothing. Something makes you. . . you. . . If you want to believe it is chance. . . .luck. . . . the flying spaghetti monster. . . .or even aliens seeding the planet. . . . than you actually have way more faith than I do. . . . It does not hurt to seriously question . . . . I don't want to live a lie. . . but, it also does not hurt to seriously and not dismissively consider. . . . no matter what our shared cult past is or isn't.

That is a pretty astute observation. . . . . a cultural influence in both respects. . . there is a God. . . . culturally. . . . and they behave according to the dictates of cultural influence. . . . so then the question becomes. . . . are they really believers. . . or just influenced from what comes at them without the benefit of true reflection? I have been listening to some interesting debates lately. . . . between atheist and Christian. . . . . really compelling and thought provoking dialogue. . . . both sides articulate in presenting their well thought out positions. . . . both believing them for reasons. . . . Not quite the same thing as a cultural influence on a concept of "faith". :) However, I do think the atheist position. . . . unreasoned out can be a cultural influence of sorts. . . . the "new" atheist movement has its mouth pieces in people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. . . . who have already done the leg work of reflection and are prolific authors. Seems that position can be "adopted" without the benefit of too much thought as well. That in no way means any here have done that. . . . . just an observation.

You are right Ham. . . . I fell for it once. . . . where do we sign up for JAL's new thing. . . . Jesus love's me. . . I'm in.

I love NCIS too. . . . I watch it online. . . . we only turn the TV on for baseball. . . . . . no score Twins-Yankees in the 6th . . . . in case anyone wondered.

Yeah. . . . but, some learning experiences are a complete waste of time and can be avoided. . . . . that is the great thing about thinking "critically".

These guys HAVE to be running out of ex-wayfers to fleece. . . . one would think. . . . there were only so many of us to begin with.

Really? TWI came into your life. . . . blessing? I would imagine Jesus expects you to think and consider who you LET into your life. . . . . just a stab in the dark.

After watching those Twinkies battle back against the Tigers. . . . excellent, exciting baseball. . . . watching the Yankees toy with the Twins was painful. . . . I shut it off. . . I have been to the Dome. . . . for the spectator it is great. . . I will miss it. . . no matter where you sit it is so intimate. . . but, with that white ceiling it is a real home team advantage. The players really do stand there looking up and can't see the ball. . . too funny to watch their expressions. Told ya it would come down to the one game playoff. . . . I knew the Twins would pull it off. . . they have some excellent players and a great organization. Gardenhirer is a good manager. He knows his players. A few more games at the Dome.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. James 2:19

TZ, This isn't an argument for or against. . . . I promise. . . . . it is a beautiful and rich sharing of who our Lord is and how He reaches into the very depth of our hearts. I must have cried 5 times during this message because I related and I truly wanted to share some of that with you. I am not arguing. I am reaching out. We could spend a whole lifetime and still not scratch the surface of who Jesus is. . . . . none of us. . . . . It isn't about being right, it is about Him.

Best be careful TZ. . . . looks like you are looking for unity in diversity, and you just might end up finding it in the first cause. :) God is a being in relationship. DL Moody was invited to speak at the Mormon Temple. . . a big deal, he was a trinitarian. . . . Ravi Zacharias was also invited to speak over 100 years later. . . . . . . . and he did a great job explaining why Jesus and why who we believe He is matters. It is a great speech and one I hope you get a chance to listen to. . . . I thought of it after reading your initial post. The reason I mention it at all is because you are looking for the commonality. . . . I don't think you will find it. . . . but, what you can find are people who are willing to share the why's with you in a non-confrontational and loving humble manner. I don't think we kill truth in the road for the sake of relationships. . . . . but, we can be in relationship to others with truth. It is how it should be. . . . . we are called to love even our enemies. . . . . . doctrinal differences are not a qualifier. Hope you get a chance to listen. . . a trinitarian speaking to Mormons about the whys. . . . kind of what you were seeking. <embed src="http://blip.tv/play/Ab2XEozWCA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="510" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>

Yankees are due, so it wouldn't ruffle my Boston feathers too much. :) I would have a smile for your happiness. Both teams got fined for the Tigers/Twins incident. . . . just bad sportsmanship all around. Now, the Twins won last night. . . . Detroit lost. . . . the saga continues. . . . would not surprise me if it came to a one game playoff. . . . but, that would be Mon and the Vikings play at the Dome so, it would have to either be played at Detroit or wait til Tues. We will see. . . .

Shellon, We had some serious boundary issues in TWI. . . . they translated into many areas of our lives. . and instead of seeking the proper help like a counselor, doctor, or trained pastor we went to each other and sought our help" in house". . . . many times to our extreme detriment. So, if I am uncomfortable with someone approaching me here with personal issues and problems and them seeking my guidance. . . . I have NO problem telling them. . . I don't know you. . you don't know me. . . . I can't help you. . . . here is where you need to look for assistance. I have pretty much said those exact words. I am not a counselor. . . . I am a historian. . . . big difference. Boundaries are important. It can be good to be cautious. On the other hand, I have read certain posters, been intrigued, and have respected the way they handle themselves enough to share personal info with them. . . . some I really like I am friends with on Facebook and speak to on the phone. . . . or at least play pone tag with. :) I feel I have gained from these experiences. . . .even though our worldviews may vastly differ. . . . I know some very good people a little bit better. There are even people here who post. . . . . . . we knew quite well in TWI. Maybe trust with the proper boundaries is a good approach?

Keeping my fingers crossed for those Twinkies. . . .still mathematically possible and the White Sox plan to give Detroit all they have got. . . . Minnesota plays Kansas City at the Dome so we will see. I am still perplexed by the whole drama that unfolded yesterday with Detroit and Minnesota. . . . Jose Mijares hit Everett with a pitch because he got on base twice?? So, the Detroit pitcher came back and hit Delmon Young with a pitch. . . .and the Twins are NOT upset with the Tigers, but with their own pitcher. . . .I kinda get it. . . . but not really. . . . I can see reprimanding the kid Mijares, but Detroit get's a pass by Minnesota?? They did what they had to??? Now, I live in the land of Pedro knocking down old men and Yankees players going after Boston FANS, so to me it all seemed kind of strange. This baseball code of honor. . . . . must be a midwestern thing? I can see telling your pitcher. . . . bad move. . . . but, being upset with him and telling Detroit it is okay. . . . it was like Delmon Young was a martyr for the payback. Pretty interesting anyway. Like letting someone take a swing at you because your family insulted theirs?