geisha779

Jude 1:3 tells us to earnestly contend for the faith which was entrusted to the saints. . . .I think that might be relevant when speaking of those afar off from the "norm". . . .if that norm is the faith once delivered. . . . . this is where contending. . . contention. .debate. . . and argument are actually important. . . . and coming out of a group who held up one man's hodge podge version of that faith as gospel. . . . it should be all the more evident in imperative. Jude is a book about diligence against those so afar off from the norm. . . . and also encouragement to actively win back those who are deceived. If you are in the land of Christendom. . . . this does not have the same significance as when you dwell in the land of cults. . . ex-cultists. . . and those who are still struggling. . . . whole new ballgame IMO. That is why I think it is important to listen to what people are saying and discuss these issues. We pretty much have insurmountable obstacles as ex-cultists. . . . we as Christians really do need God's help and guidance and the sound theology of trusted servants. . . fellowship with others. God is certainly able. On the plus side :) . . . . great deliverance offers such great depth and insight into God's heart.

You know you are in screwed up cult when. . . . you do not recognize within yourself a shrinking capacity for mercy, compassion and empathy. But, you consider yourself enlightened. Or when the only ones who really matter to you are those who think just like you, but you still adamantly claim to oppose idolatry. . . . . not recognizing the worshiping of self in such a practice.

In the days of Lot the guys in Sodom were trying to get their hands on the two men(angels, guests). . . . for not so nice reasons. . . .they wanted them to come out and play. . . so to speak. Today most gays just want to marry, settle down, be monogamous, adopt, love, and provide for unwanted babies from third world countries. . . . lead moral lives. . . pay their bills. . . be in the PTA. Not the same thing. . . . . Look at what some are trying to persecute. No wonder people scratch their heads. Crazy. It seems to me there is a better way to love people and reach them with the gospel. All have sinned and fallen short. My son always tells me. . . . homosexuals already know what Christians think of them. . . . we don't have to keep telling them. They have the message loud and clear. . . it is just the wrong message.

Garth, You own the moral high ground here. . . . and as you are aware. . . . Jesus. . . . who came to reveal God. . . never picked up a stone to throw. He was like you in that he hated religiosity. Called it out at every turn. . . . and more than ticked off many religious zealots of the day. Are you SURE you are not His follower? Sometimes you do sound like Him.

Apparently not the issue of stoning if you have to ask if it is a relevant topic. . . . Honey.

I don't know, but, I probably do get some small measure of perverse pleasure in this. . . sounds awful, but it is what it is. . . I see John Lynn as someone who has been on a frantic spiritual quest for years. . . . and has taken others along on his ride. Ever learning, but never coming to a knowledge of the truth. When I think of the countless lives he has insinuated himself into by assumed position of teacher. I get angry. People need to be delivered FROM JAL STIF and TWI mind set. . . . and he is like the energizer bunny. . . . he just keeps going and going and going. Look at the wake of destruction left in his path from his very odd ministry. And as good as a salesman as he is. . . . he is a lousy consumer. . . . easily duped. . . .momentus, personal prophecy, a God who is ineffectual and mistaken, a Jesus unrecognizable to most. Really, he falls for whatever and let's it rule his life. That is bad enough, but then passes it on to others as gospel. It is criminal. He wielded that microphone at Emporia like a weapon and a means of spewing self-aggrandizing propaganda. It seems not too much has changed with these epistles. . . . Am I bitter? Probably a bit. . . Yeah But, there is a middle ground. . . . you don't have to sell your soul to VP or TWI or some offshoot to fellowship. It is possible with the unwashed masses of Christianity. I say run. . . branch out. . . . reach out. Get away from these guys. My take anyway. It is the only thing that will stop them. I don't rejoice in their iniquity . . . I just want them to knock it off. Thanks to the people who answered my JB question via PM.

Hey Jeff, Actually what he said was something different. I love the way he put's it into perspective. . . . and since you couldn't hear it. . .I copied some of the transcript. . . . just use a British accent when you read it and you are all set. . . . Enjoy! It actually makes sense. The word hell has had a checkered career in the history of the church. And it wasnt hugely important in the early days. It was important, but not nearly as important as it became in the middle ages. And the in the middle ages, you get this polarization of heaven over here and hell over there, and you have to go to one place or the other eventually. So you have the Sistine Chapel, with that great thing behind the altar. This enormous great judgment seat, with the souls going off into these different directions. Very interestingly, I was sitting in the Sistine chapel just a few weeks ago. I was sitting for a service, and I was sitting next to a Greek Orthodox...who said to me, looking at the pictures of Jesus on one wall. He said, these I can understand. The pictures of Moses on the other wall, he said, those I can understand. Then he pointed at the end wall of judgment, and said, that I cannot understand. That is how you in the west have talked about judgment and heaven and hell. He said, we have never done it that way before, because the bible doesn't do it that way. I thought, whoops. I think hes right actually. And whether youre Catholic or Protestant, that scenario which is etched into the consciousness of Western Christianity really has to be shaken about a bit. Because if heaven and earth are to join together. Its not a matter of leaving earth and going to heaven. Its heaven and earth joined together. And hell is what happens when human beings say, the God in whose image they were made, we dont want to worship you. We dont want our human life to be shaped by you. We dont want, who we are as humans to be transformed by the love of Jesus dying and rising for us. We dont want any of that. We want to stay as we are and do our own thing. And if you do that, what youre saying is, you want to stop being image bearing human being within this good world that God has made. And you are colluding with your own progressive dehumanization. And that is such a shocking and horrible thing, that its not surprising that the biblical writers and others have used very vivid and terrifying language about it. But, people have picked that up and said, this is a literal description of reality. Somewhere down there, there is a lake of fire, and its got worms in it and its got serpents and demons and there coming to get you. But I think actually, the reality is more sober and sad than that, which is this progressive shrinking of human life. And that happens during this life, but it seems to be that if someone resolutely says to God, Im not going to worship you...its not just Ill not come to church. Its a matter of deep down somewhere, there is a rejection of the good creator God, then that it the choice humans make. In other words, I think the human choices in this life really matter. Were not just playing a game of chess, where tomorrow morning God will put the pieces back on the board and say, Ok that was just a game. Now were doing something different. The choices we make here really do matter. Theres part of me that would love to be a universalist, and say, itll be alright. Everyone will get there in the end. I actually...the choices you make in the present are more important than that.

Okay, so I pretty much pieced together the events. . . . it sounds like you got caught in the fray and were sacrificed if your story is like the other volunteer. Seems you might have fared better all around. . . . but, I imagine that is your strong sense of individuality at work. I recognize most of the names. . . . but, who the heck IS JEff Blackb*(rn? Seems he is pretty much high up on the food chain. He was involved in the lawsuits. . . but, I don't remember him from TWI. Is he still around? What camp does he fall into? Just curious. . . no biggie. . . . but I read that thread DWBH cited in his post and JB is named as well. Just trying to place the players and keep the drama straight. It really is a train wreck and I can't look away. :) Takes me right back to TWI though. . . . I have not seen this kind of thing in years. . . . it has that . . . that. . . whatever to it. Isolationist drama I guess. Can't put my finger on it.

I never said people would not suffer or that God can't use things like suffering for good. I know that He does. My point to you is. . . . Jesus. . . the express image of God. . . . forgave the woman caught in adultery. . . . He did not pick up stones and throw them at her. . . . He saved her. It is not your job or mine to cast stones. . . . we are to offer our lives. . . as a witness to that mercy and forgiveness of God bestowed on us through Jesus. . . .furthermore. . . it is not our job to convict people of their sins. . . that is the work of the Holy Spirit. It IS our part to reflect back to a world filled with pain and sorrow. . . . God's overflowing and abundant love. We know a man who has AIDS. . . . he lived the life of a promiscuous gay man for many years. That is how he contracted HIV. . . . his words. My son's friends reached this man with the LOVE of the gospel. He has accepted Jesus as savior and is now living a holy life. What if they had gone to him and said. . . . "Ya know, they used to stone homosexuals in the OT, I think they should do that now." Do you think he would have heard them when they said "God loves you?" NO. He heard them because they reflected back to him the grace and love received in their own lives. This guy had huge support in the gay community. . . . Elton John is his friend. He had a support system, he wasn't all alone and without help. So, what was it he saw in these KIDS that made him listen? God's love and forgiveness. Unless there is a miracle. . . he will die from AIDS related illness. Still reap the consequences of his lifestyle. . . . but, he is restored. What does it say to people when Christians lash out in judgmental rhetoric?. . . It says. . . you are NOT welcome here. . . . but, is that really true. . . . didn't Jesus die for we sinners so that we could be restored? The reason I asked you if that is what it meant to be human. . . is because we ARE made in God's image. . . . we are to be like Him. . . . that is what humanity is. . . . we know Him through Jesus. . . His express image. . . . . . the one who came to reveal Him. Jesus forgave sins. . . knew the human condition. . . . has compassion. . . .is merciful. . . . and loves us. He didn't pick up a stone. I am sure I went overboard here. . . . but what really bothers me. . . is that Christianity is considered part of the problem. . . when it really is the solution. Saying you think stoning is a good idea. . . . just perpetuates that stereo-type. Listen to this. . . . <embed id=VideoPlayback src=http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-3125915108878131468&hl=en&fs=true style=width:400px;height:326px allowFullScreen=true allowScriptAccess=always type=application/x-shockwave-flash> </embed>

Not sure you can make that determination from this most scientific of polls. . . . but if it makes you feel better to think so. . . . I lurked here before posting. . . and every once in awhile a lurker will pop up and give a testimony of sorts. . . . It more than likely has a wider effect than this poll reveals. No real way to analyze unavailable data. We do have a current member who posts. What IS actually interesting is the anger and disdain for TWI so far out from one's participation. . . . . that in itself is a powerful witness to the insidious nature of TWI, but not really to the inability of its victims. . . . to "move on". . . . . this is a snapshot of peoples lives. IMHO It speaks volumes.

Actually Kimberly, it is still relevant to people in Iran and some parts of Africa sitting in prison awaiting a sentence of stoning. Very relevant to groups like Amnesty International and Voice of the Martyrs. It should be relevant to us. Especially when it is a Christian or any woman falsely accused in a Muslim country and she has no access to real defense. It is not unheard of for some countries to hang girls as young as twelve. Americans live in such a bubble.. . . . http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7708169.stm This 13 year old girl . . . . she died begging for. . . . MERCY. The 23 year old woman was buried up to her neck in a football stadium and stoned. . . .

You did not answer me. Watch the stoning of a beautiful innocent 14 year old girl, by a mob of religious zealots, for the "crime" of falling in love with a Sunni Muslim boy. Then tell me. . . . is this what it means to be human? If man is made in God's image and man is barbaric. . . does that make God barbaric? I know why God instituted harsh punishment in the OT. . . . but, Jesus came to fulfill the law not continue in it. . . . . and God reconciled us unto Himself. . . .brought heaven and earth together in the person of Jesus. It is the GOOD news. His justice is restorative in Jesus. . . . . We don't stone people. God forgave Paul for murdering Christians. . . . Stephen forgave those who stoned him and the scriptures tell us that Jesus stood for Stephen. Anywhere else you read of Him sitting. I believe in restorative justice. BTW. . . I am made in God's image. Female though I am. . . . those verses in Gen have been used to justify slavery, serious misogyny and to subjugate women, but please read any good commentary for a better explanation. If you are interested.

They still have stoning in some countries. . . . a few years ago a 14 year old girl was stoned for falling in love with the wrong boy. Here take a look . . . <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rgSH0h45Eo&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rgSH0h45Eo&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rgSH0h45Eo&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> If we are made in the image of God's overflowing mercy and generous love. . . is this what it means to be human? Jesus. . . . who offered us restorative justice. . . . and came to set it right. . . . while reflecting God's healing goodness. . . already overcame evil with good. . . no?

Yep. . . . you nailed it. . . . and he already said what he is inspired to do. Start a worldwide church, excuse me, ekklesia. . . because apparently the one we have is not good enough. What I think he really means is . . . run the world wide church. That is nothing new . . . these guys are still trying to be Jesus Christ on the cross. Are crosses allowed in STF? There is a huge difference between being inspired by God and listening to your own ego. . if God is inspiring that man. . I am becoming an atheist. I mean it. (Jer 14:14) With all due respect for the lovely ladies and what I am sure were their pure motives for trying to talk to JAL about change. . . . I have to ask. . . what were you thinking? We ARE talking about the same John Lynn. . . right? The guy who loves to remind us how important he is. . . again and again?

I don't know mstar. . . . it is like watching a soap opera. . . . or train wreck... . . you just can't look away. :) I probably shouldn't be, but I am curious about the packet sent with the letters. The drama is just so intense. The more you read. . . the more it sounds like junior high. "She said. . . I said. . . me, me, me. . . it isn't fair." I can just hear his foot stomping. What did he expect? It is a mini-cult spawned from a big cult. . . .most of the faithful right out of TWI. . . .it was a silly idea from the get-go. Somewhere for all the ex-twiers who were messed up from an abusive group and its teaching. . . . to continue on with each other in the same vein. Yeah. . . . that will work. He is still trying to manipulate people and situations and slap God in there somewhere to make it all legit. I do feel real pity for him. The man is going to be 66 years old and is still caught up in all the drama. If he wants to be a Christian. . . he should just be a Christian. . . . but, if he wants to be a heretical teacher and leader. . . . he will waste the rest of his life just like this. . . in melodrama. Christian Aid would take him. They wouldn't care what he believes. . . . He could work to help eradicate poverty in the third world. . . . campaign for debt relief. . . help save starving children. Not such a bad way to go out. But, there is no glory or fanfare in that work. Even so. . . he would still be a part of something, it would be worthy. . . . and it is part of the worldwide church community. . . http://www.christianaid.org.uk/

The first thing that comes to mind? My daughter, when she was in high school and she and her friends would fight. Really, no disrespect meant. Maybe. . . just maybe. . . it is time to cut all of them lose and let the people who spilled over from TWI. . . . work it out within themselves to integrate into a sound church. Maybe JAL should just go sit and shhhh listen in a simple bible believing church under a proper and anointed pastor. Be a part of the world wide ekklesia. Unless, he doesn't want to be part of it. . . . but run it. Jesus Christ founded His church. . . WE HAVE IT. . . . it is world wide. . . . united by love and a common gospel. . . . and we don't need JAL to found another one. I am astounded. Maybe it really is time to set the captives free? Just a thought and really. . . . a hope.

I know this thread is not about hell, but I thought you might enjoy this. . . . the idea of hell within the western church. . . . where it comes from. . . . and how it might differ from the biblical perspective. The bible is full of descriptive language and imagery. . . . much like Paul is using in this section of Corinthians. . . . buildings. . . materials. . . . fire. . . . Maybe the problem comes in part when we confuse metaphor for something literal. . . . <object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

And when I read something like this above. . . . I have to wonder if you tossed your bible. . . . you don't care how many women he screwed? Well, first off . . . nice terminology . . . . and second, way to hold up women and their worth with such clarity. . . . . it isn't what goes into your body that defiles you, but what comes out of your mouth. . . . why would you say you do not care that someone drugged, raped, manipulated, and molested vulnerable young women? Sorry. . . "screwed" them. We incarcerate people for this. . . . it is a felony!! As a collective society we understand it is wrong to do this. . . .we care. . . guess we missed that part in TWI the "Christian" ministry . I bet every Pagan and atheist on this board. . . . "cares". Your bible cares . . . . and it warns about men like VP. . . . and no where do I read. . . . good, bad, or indifferent. . . . and that it doesn't matter. I read warning after warning about men like VP who come out of the church . . . . pervert the gospel, deny the Lord, and turn grace into a license for sin. Men who use people, lead them astray and whose destruction and judgment is set. Worth being reached? Billy Graham has evangelized his whole life. . . . Surely you were well aware of who Billy Graham was. . . . you could have gone to a crusade at any time. That would have been your choice, but I wonder if you would have listened? Billy Graham would have told you that you had to change. But, I can't really fault you for your line of reasoning. . . . I get it. . . . I prayed to know God. . . . and there was TWI . . . . and they were everywhere in my life. . . . . it could not have been coincidence. . . . it was God answering my prayer. And. . . . because my moral compass was so askew, I was headed for certain death. My life WAS saved by detouring from drug abuse into that cult. For a time after I left TWI I was just sure I had learned the "truth" despite all the horrible things that had gone on. I had prayed, so TWI HAD to be my answer. It confused me to no end. The why of it? Especially once I started to understand how wrong the behavior and teaching was. . . .the fact it was a cult. . . . and the reality of who VP was. One day I realized that God had answered my prayer. . . . it was in my deliverance from TWI that I really came to know Him. God does not conquer in spite of evil. . . . but, through it. Lazarus still died, but Jesus delivered him. Great deliverance reveals God. God had brought me to Him perfectly after all. But. . . . VP meant it for evil. . . it was God who used it for good. It is the "meant it for evil" part people here warn of. . . . . don't make assumptions about what goes on here. . . . that people are merely "bitching". . . . they may actually be doing something of real worth. Maybe you just don't see it yet. And Waysider. . . . I am sorry to derail your thread. . . another book was None Dare Call it Conspiracy.

That reminds me of this verse T-Bone. . . . If we have placed our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone. 1Cor 15:19 Why is that? Isn't it about our best life now? Why are Christian lives so often marked by suffering? Sin? The fall? VP started a whole ministry on the premise Christians should be prosperous. . . . looked around his church and saw broken people. . . . he didn't like what he saw. There is a whole health and wealth gospel people preach. The Apostles were beaten. . . imprisoned, and martyred. . . . didn't God like them? Were they sinning? Didn't they have power? Makes you wonder if there is more to it. . . . that whole refining fire, scourging, and chastening thing sounds painful. If it is all for this life only. . . . I will take a pass. I am counting on the last being first. . . . God better keep up His end of the bargain.

Good plan. :)

What is it you are looking for Ham? Hasn't He already come and declared God. . . . doesn't He invite you? You already know what He says. . . . Come unto Me all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take the rest. Take what is offered. Count the cost, and decide. . . . follow Him. He asked you. He already found you. You just have to accept the offer. Doesn't really get more complicated than that. :)

That is beautiful and sage advice. . . Amen

Don't hold back WG. . . . tell me how you really feel. I hope you pray for this two-bit, smug, holier than thou know-it-all kid preacher who wouldn't know how to pastor God's people if Paul himself came down from heaven to show him.. . . . if he is caught up in Driscoll mania. . . . he needs it.

I am not really independent. . . . I depend on others for many things. . . . I need to be Pastored. . . . I need fellowship with other Christians. . . . and I am completely and utterly dependent on God. I depend on teachers to provoke thought, to challenge me. . . . . Depend heavily on hubby. . . . I need an army to keep me straight. Sometimes people here help me. You have a bad meal in a restaurant you stay away from that particular chain, but you still have to eat. I am a sheep(baaah). . . I have to be lead or I will wander, but now I just let the Chief Shepherd lead me. Now I recognize his voice. Independence isn't all that great. . . . you just end up separated and alone. I like a flock. :)

I really like reading John Piper. . . . especially his work on the attributes of God. Seems to me he knows the Lord and well. . . . . . I love listening to Matt Chandler. . . . great preacher. . . . and just because they are both Calvinist doesn't mean I can't learn from them. Matt Chandler is friends with Mark Driscoll, although I can't figure out why. . . . but, nothing like him. I love RC Sproul, he is a brilliant man. . . . do I believe everything he says without question? No. . . . but, I do learn from him and benefit from his teaching. John MacArthur mostly scares me. I enjoy reading Reformed Theology and although I don't get the whole predestination thing. . . . I still appreciate the high view of God they hold. Many of the New Calvinist preachers really know God. . . . I wouldn't ever declare them not initiated.