geisha779

Wherever I went in TWI, prophecy and interpretations were always sprinkled with plenty of thee, thou, shalt, and nay's. It was as if God had never heard our modern vernacular, and his "voice" was always with an emphasis on the King's English. Convenient though, as we were restricted to the KJV bible. Funny how that worked out.

Hey, I am baking apple bread today. If I can fit it in I will try. It might have to get in line behind laundry though and I am with Raf on the burden of proof. If we wanted to get nit picky.... it really is those who make claims that have the burden to prove them, but I am truly not that invested. I have a little peace about this issue and I am glad. I don't want to be that too nit picky person and really... I applaud your willingness to consider things outside your comfort zone. Lord knows I don't like to. . . . and I respect those who do it with integrity. That means I respect your attitude and contribution to this thread and I admire your considered and cautious approach.

What he said was tongues become free vocalization without love. Which is what I took exception to.....because that would mean a real known language becomes gibberish without the right attitude. I really don't think that is what Paul is saying at all. They are two different things. But if SIT has a purpose, then it wouldn't be a language no one understood or some ancient language from the past. When you factor in its purpose, a sign for unbelievers, it has to be a recognized language or one that can be interpreted.Who says the gift of interpretation is some magical gift? I think it is more people who are there and can interpret.

There is a good case to be made for the continuity of tongues throughout the accounts in Acts. People understood that they were exalting God in Cornelius' house, and Peter said they received the gift in the same way. If it had varied he might have mentioned that. There are a few good articles posted in the doctrinal section in the SIT reading room thread. If you dare venture down there. :) Just as an aside.....I read about receiving another spirit concerning tongues from John Juedes....he might be a good person to ask about those verses and if they can be related to TWI and tongues.

If you want to believe what you are doing is different. Believe it. It is obviously somehow important to your faith....so I don't mind what you do. It is not a make or break doctrine in my estimation. I wasn't trying to convince you that you were praying to God and somehow by mistake "another spirit" answered your prayer. I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. I said I wasn't completely convinced myself. Now, not being completely convinced myself, am I going to try and convince you? Context....why is that so difficult a concept? Is that what Paul was saying when he spoke of another spirit....they were praying to God and another spirit mistakenly intervened? No. When you look at those verses in light of their context, it is not such a far fetched concept..... as Paul is speaking in the context of false teachers who infiltrated the church and were preaching another Jesus, another gospel, and people were easily and willingly receiving another spirit. As mentioned earlier.....false teachers teach false doctrine. No? They preach another Jesus and they preach another gospel. One that enslaves. You yourself have called VP a false teacher. It was a cult not a nice Christian organization. PFAL is based in word of faith theology which has its roots in the occult. VP used exploiting and subtle persuasion techniques to convince us, sometimes against our better judgement. All that SIT we were doing.....was it self edifying and building up our inner man....a real phenomenon from God and proof of eternal life? Or was it a way to get us to shut off our critical thinking skills and zone out? Believe whatever you like. You have my permission to SIT. Don't need it? No? Than why does it bother you so much that I don't believe it is real? Actually, I like Sudo's answer the best. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

Yeah, we get it....he was not a good guy....but really? We have to mock his cancer and eye? Rejoicing in someone else suffering, no matter how bad they were, makes me queasy.

Well Steve, knowing God has just the opposite effect...it does not inflate us....it humbles us. That is what keeps us grounded from flights of fancy and random musings about the Almighty. There is a difference between caging God in and believing every voice we hear could be from God because we can't cage Him in. Jesus came to declare God....to make Him known. Can you name one immutable truth about God? Can you name two? I bet you can. I bet if we really thought about it we could name many. Is that boxing God in? He doesn't change does He? Immutability is what sets Him apart....isn't it? If He changed He wouldn't be God. He doesn't need to change He is perfect.

But, the people who know their God shall be strong and do exploits. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. That I may know him and the power of his resurrection........ This is fun! I have a hundred more! Steve, I love you, I really do and I am sure you have a really great point, but I am not sure what it is. Don't you think that in order to love God, we must know Him? With God all things are possible....that is in the context of what? Salvation? Yes? Does that mean God will do anything? No. There are certain things we should know about God, so that we don't get tricked. Just because all things are possible with God....should we assume God will do something opposed to His Holy nature....that he ever could? No. Even the verse you posted is in the context of discerning! So while I agree that it is foolish to cage God in.... it is wise to know the Lord our God so that we can love and worship Him as we should. :) Please carry on, I am sure you have a point to make and I don't want to be too rude. . . .

We should at the least know what His character and nature is so when we are told something opposed to it.....we can recognize it. That comes in handy btw, when approached by cults looking to recruit new members. Call me caged, but I do think God's attributes and nature are shared so that we may know Him. I wonder why He bothered to tell us about salvation and hell if it is not to know? Oddly enough, I am caged enough to know God holds me responsible for what I believe and say.

I always wonder why it is we have to repent to be forgiven from God, but admonished to "one up" Him in forgiveness when it comes to TWI. Why did Jesus say, if your brother repents forgive Him, yet, some people promote forgiveness without repentance? Repentance is a good thing! My favorite is the one that makes forgiveness for our own benefit. There is biblical concept you don't hear everyday.....Self-serving forgiveness. I suspect much of it breaks along the lines of what we consider TWI. Is it an anti-christian cult founded by a false teacher who instilled in people a false sense of salvation, or a Christian group that strayed, but still has the "truth"? Sorry, I really don't mean to take it off topic too much and frankly, those forgiveness threads get on my nerves.

Spewing gibberish is close to your heart? Ex, I am not what is close to your heart.....but, my SIT in TWI was not the tongues spoken of in scripture. It was exactly what I said....gibberish. Not perfect prayer, not praise...... not real. Why that should make you sad is mystery to me. My experience is just that....mine. It doesn't mean that God is any less great. It simply means I don't speak in tongues and when I pretended it was real in TWI it wasn't. Gibberish doesn't become a real known language if I change my attitude. Real tongues do not become gibberish if I just love more. That is not what Paul is saying. Actually, I am not completely convinced that what we did in TWI was not related to receiving, what the Apostle Paul calls "another spirit" in 2 Corinthians. If that is the case, I bet that makes God pretty sad.

You are right...that IS really good and I too learned something. I don't even feel bad about missing church now! :)

Raf posted a really interesting article in the SIT reading room thread and I thought it was well worth posting a link here. The author also has a book entitled Fanning the Flames: Probing the issues in Acts. At least I believe it is the same person. I ordered the book either way, it looks like an interesting read. Of course, much of his article reiterates things I think are evident in these scriptures, :) but it was nice to see someone else draw similar parallels. http://markmoore.org...s/tongues.shtml Basham gives a classic Pentecostal definition: "Speaking in tongues is a form of prayer in which the Christian yields himself to the Holy Spirit and receives from the Spirit a supernatural language with which to praise God." This definition assumes two things. First, the primary form of tongues is prayer. Second, tongues constitute a divine, rather than a human language. Basham is right on if we're looking at the dominant contemporary exercise of tongues. However, laid next to the Scriptures, both of these assumptions are suspect. ......................................................... . . . It is common to read testimonies of tongue-speakers who laud the personal benefits of the gift. It is extolled as a wonderful experience that enhances one's devotion to God. These statements stand on 1 Corinthians 14:4, "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." MacDonald says, "'Glossolalia' is the one gift given primarily for the benefit of the individual."Again, Basham says, "The primary purpose of it is for us in one's own devotional life."The problem is this: 1 Corinthians 14:4 is not advocating the private use of tongues; rather, Paul is criticizing their use. Turning gifts inward is unhelpful to the body; that is Paul's point. In fact, in light of 1 Corinthians 14:1a, Paul might even argue that uninterpreted tongues are unloving. The purpose of all spiritual gifts is to build up the body (1 Cor 12:7ff; 14:1-8). We are not suggesting that ministry is not deeply satisfying. We are arguing that being deeply satisfied through ministering to oneself is misguided. Certainly a different perspective than the one we adopted in TWI concerning the benefit and purpose of tongues. The problem I see with the way we viewed tongues as something for private use and self edification is of course the obvious....it is a self-centered theology. But, even greater, is that we missed a particularly poignant admonition to strive for and seek out the building up of the body. Ironically, this is where our edification truly does come into play. VP had no problem pounding that theme home in other areas where it served his purpose. A lifetime commitment and service to his ministry springs to mind. I shudder to think of the beauty and God glorifying and faith building meaning missed in the other verses VP used to prop up his thoughts on SIT. These are some of the things that make me queasy when I revisit Way theology.

Thanks for posting this...read the whole thing and then ordered the book, Fanning the Flame: Probing the Issues in Acts http://www.amazon.co... I am excited to read it and if any one else is interested I would be happy to pass my copy along when I am done!

I don't think an attitude adjustment is going to make that gibberish I was spewing turn into a real language. I don't think my attitude made a real language turn into gibberish either. Free vocalization is not tongues in need of more love to blossom. It was gibberish from the get-go.

Decaf is about as useful as non alcoholic beer. Decaf is a baaad word. :) In 1 Corinthians 12:28 Paul states that God has appointed teachers in the church. Teachers, are to have sound speech, rejoice in truth, have sound doctrine and are to teach with faith in and love for Jesus Christ. Teachers, are held more accountable before the Lord. Jesus, does not place teachers in the church, abandon them, and later go around and whisper in people's ears that they can't be trusted. Do you see how that personal revelation contradicts scripture and paints Jesus in a bad light? Not to mention, that personal revelation goes against the Lord's nature, character, and His ability to head His church. We have some amazing teachers and scholars in the church right now.....here for our benefit. They serve God at His pleasure. We are still to be discerning, no doubt there are plenty of false teachers as well, but we do have genuine God given teachers. I am just being discerning. And yes, I do get a bit passionate when I hear the Lord portrayed as someone other than He is. . . . when I hear of another Jesus who is capable of all kinds of nefarious things.

Maybe not just in the hands of TWI...it would be a challenge for many Christians not to exalt such writings. Chondra Pierce does this funny piece on going to Israel and driving the tour guide crazy by asking him every 5 minutes if Jesus may have stood in the same place she was standing. If you like comedy you should check her out on you-tube. Who knew you could make a living as a Christian comedian? :)

And all those poor Christians who never took PFAL or "learned" to SIT. I guess we really were super special athletes of the spirit, as God appears to have left the rest to shrivel and wither. Phew....lucky we had VP. Or There is another meaning to being built up in the inner man that has nothing to do with how much we SIT to "edify ourselves" and we missed the greatness and depth of God's mercy in those verses because we did have VP to tell us what they "really" meant. Which one could it possibly be?

Steve, I really thought God's grace and mercy had allowed you to finally finally be around Christians to see and to come to a simple knowledge of Jesus Christ. To share fully in a Christians common faith. I believed that was where your journey was leading you. I stand corrected. Didn't realize God rewarded us for being in a Christ denying cult. Silly me....I spent all that time repenting! Just curious though....if the Lord taught you not to trust ANY man's interpretation of scripture....why would He call you to write one for others to trust? If every other interpretation is not to be trusted, yet your job from the Lord is to interpret for others....you must have a special calling indeed! You must be the ONLY one to ever write about Acts that the Lord deems trustworthy! Is this the same Jesus who blinded you, led you into a pit, and who placed you under a curse? Thanks....you have made my point about restraint being a good thing.

I have two dear friends who graduated from Dallas theological....I will be sure to pass on the info about their inferior education due to dogmatic restraints. Although, there is another way to consider restraint....it can be a good thing, as it prevents us from veering to the controversial and spectacular and may keep us focused on the gospel. I will risk it with ESV.

http://esvstudybible.org/ ESV study bible.....this is an excellent bible and when you buy it you get access to their website which is a wonderful study aid. This is a very trustworthy bible which was a collaboration effort of 95 well known and respected bible scholars and teachers. Created by an outstanding team of 95 evangelical Christian scholars and teachers, the ESV Study Bible presents completely new study notes, maps, illustrations, charts, timelines, articles, and introductions. Altogether the ESV Study Bible comprises 2 million words of Bible text, insightful explanation, teaching, and reference material—equivalent to a 20-volume Bible resource library all contained in one volume.

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, CK Barrett. I have this book and have found it very helpful in answering some of the question that have come up in the SIT thread.

You mean to tell me that reading the context of the letter to the Corinthians is fruitless without dissecting every verse? How do we mere mortals manage? You can't trust any translation of the bible enough to simply read it for context? I don't buy that for a second. In TWI we studied, parsed, and argued over words and microscopic details incessantly....look how far that got us. There are probably only a handful of scholars who could truly claim to understand scripture and context if it is based purely on a knowledge of Greek semantics. What happens when someone more knowledgeable than you Steve, comes along and blows your translation out of the water? What are you left with then? Good Lord, I was simply speaking of a reading of context and maybe some other places where Paul speaks of the Holy Spirit. We could have a field day with the Greek in Ephesians 2:8-10, but, any born again Christian can explain what it means......without Greek. Then again, someone could study it in the Greek for months and still be clueless. In the end, we are left with three choices....we can believe it, we can deny it, or we can twist it. We don't need Greek for that, but a knowledge of Greek is not going to prevent that either.

To add to what Raf said....or to glom onto it really....I am not calling anyone a liar other than VP. I was fully persuaded myself, so, I don't have any higher ground to stand on....I participated in free vocalization for years, I led others into it, and I sold it with the rest. And yes, there are things VP taught that were correct, like salvation by grace alone. What happened? Grace was perverted and Jesus was dismissed. It wasn't just the initiated that were troubled by grace as an occasion to sin, those things trickled right down. Something having elements of truth....is not truth. Yes, all really good lies....have an element of credibility. There are Christians who teach sound doctrine, but it is very difficult to know who to trust or even to actually trust a teacher again. I was willing to give Benny Hinn the benefit of the doubt when I left TWI and started searching again, because I didn't know how to discern doctrine. He spoke my language as a charismatic. It never really occurred to me my perspective was the problem. I think to unravel this picture we have to really challenge many things VP taught us, examine them, and consider another way to look at the same thing. It can be really difficult. I really don't believe we do it alone. God is with us in our search and there are Christians never caught up in TWI who understand Way theology and are willing to help. And btw.... if someone wants to speak, pray, sing, or rap in tongues....by all means do it. You don't need my or any permission or approval.