geisha779

And Christians call on all people to accept the gift bestowed on mankind. . . . 1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn. . . Sounds pretty good. . . He reaches out to the poor, as do many, many quiet unassuming Christians. . . . He binds the brokenhearted. . . did that for me. . . he offers freedom. . . and release from all kinds of prisons. . . . and he offers justice and comfort to all who mourn. I believe and live that. . . . but, if I tell someone. . . no, He. . Jesus. . is the only way. . . I am what? A fundamentalist? It is what I know and believe to my inner core. It is my faith! I don't think all ways are equal or valid. . . . I don't believe God is an evolved idea and I don't want to live my life by principles laid down by Karen Armstrong or compassion by consensus. I believe it is a very narrow gate. . . and there is a path that leads to God and one to destruction. So, if I believe this and DO NOT shout it from the rooftops. . . that does not make me very compassionate. . . does it? Either I change what I believe to conform to what some other person thinks I should . . . or I get labeled? No thanks. . . that is total hypocrisy. Doing the same thing that one claims to stand against. I guess I am a fundamentalist.

Jesus came for the lowly and broken. . . . . We have several different concepts or classifications going on in this thread without any clear delineation. Seems to me a general. . . . GRRRRRR factor at the idea of Christian fundamentals based on Christian scripture. But, it also seems to be based on our shared experience within a cult. A group which used control tactics and expounded an aberrant faith. Somewhat reactionary. . . fine. . . but, what are we reacting to? Christians do not even accept TWI theology for the most part. . . .I walk in and out of churches at will. . . with no threat of shunning or condemnation. . . . who are these fundamentalists?? I think I might be one by vague definition here. I am still not sure? We are classifying people in general broad strokes. . . . and basically it comes down to what? The term fundamentalist is two-fold. . . a historic movement and apparently those who hold to fundamentals? And we have the authority to classify. . . why? Because our way is better? Bad news here. Holding the fundamental notion that there is no God, only the evolution of the idea of God. . . . and setting out to Charter Compassion in part based on this premise is no different than me telling you Jesus is the way. It is based on a fundamental understanding. It is just as problematic as what people consider fundamental theology to be. God is a theory or idea. . . . so, then is compassion. Do we make it up as we go. . . . as long as it does not impose on people? It is going to impose itself on someone. It becomes the new rule. . . . what is a Charter? Geeze. . . . " A grant of authority or rights." It is just someone telling me their way is better based on their fundamental understanding. . . . that sounds just like the original complaint to me.

as someone whose husband has needed emergency blood on more than one occasion. . . I think it is great. Strange. . . but, a good thing.

Wow. . . really? So, what are you moving towards? Ideationalism? You may find this more problematic. . . . No? Try applying rational thought to a subject without a predicate and see how far into the abyss you wander. Just look at this thread. Is it that Christians never engage in inner dialogue about what they believe? Who are these bigoted rednecks. . . . and from what intellectual and moral position do you make these judgments? You have to have one to make a sweeping judgment like that. I can give you a very long and distinguished list of people, who by vague definitions alluded to on this thread. . . . and those definitions very subjective, would be considered as having a narrow view on what they think the word is. . . . Multiple PhD holders, people who teach at Oxford, people invited to speak at the UN, invited to college campuses all over the world. . . . people who found schools like Harvard Law. . . .scientists who map out DNA. . . . people like Johnathan Edwards. . . . who is generally considered America's greatest intellectual. . . C.S. Lewis, who I think we can safely say was not a redneck. Alistar Mcgrath is an amazing thinker who holds 2 PhD's along with John Lennox who holds 3. . . . are they in reality stupid? Get to know some of these amazing Christian thinkers. They challenge the idea of theological evolutionary process. . . . which is the underlying theme of this thread. The IDEA or concept. . . that the IDEA of a God who does not exist has been refined over time. That begins with an assumption, which leads to a particular conclusion. . . .not the other way around. . . . . easy enough to do. . . . but when you start thinking about it. . . . it becomes problematic. Take the idea of compassion for example. If life is simply bio-chemical. . . . then compassion becomes metaphysical theorizing. The naturalist deductions for compassion breaks apart when challenged, . . . . but, isn't a metaphysical concept what is originally being challenged ? One is okay. . . why again? Because we can refine it? Dealing with the problem of human suffering? A lofty and noble goal. . .if pain is the end point. . . . we can then kill suffering children because that will end their pain? That would make killing acceptable and even compassionate. No? Of course it would. That would be the compassionate thing to do. . . . kill a bio-chemical life form suffering from pain. If there is no God. . . . . let's roll out the compassion and start killing the suffering!! Be compassionate. Hey, in some cultures people eat other people. . . . if we are just bio-chemical life forms. . . . is it really a problem? Ever see a chicken eat chicken. . . they love it. Do we stop people from doing this? Their concept of compassion may vary. . . do we impose one on them. . . . some theory? That doesn't sound very compassionate to me. . . sounds rather narrow. Either life is sacred. . . or it is simply bio-chemical. . . what makes it sacred? God. Otherwise we are simply theorizing. Where do we hear about God? From the word? That is one very prominent way. . . yes? By definition it is a narrow way to God found in Christian scripture. Are you moving from the narrow way? The idea of God beyond the reality of God? What a mess that becomes but we can make it sound pretty. . . Who then becomes God? We do.

Here is some advice from a qualified Pastor who is very familiar with TWI. He has a website posted under links here. Pastor John Juedes. http://www.precastco... You can contact him with questions. I would not go to any Way offshoot or any ex-way teacher. . . or member. . . including ME. . . for any spiritual matters. Remember, this was the outward manifestation of the inward reality of the New Birth, but these guys lived lives of debauchery! It might just be. . . . we were led into something else. . . not good. If there is a genuine. . . . there is a counterfeit. . . and Pagan's also SIT. Does that make it Christian? (Not a slam on my Pagan friends. . . it is just different) Q. I have discovered several errors in The Way and have begun to discard some of its practices. The Way emphasizes speaking in tongues so heavily that I wonder if I should stop this, but I believe the Bible does not condemn it. What should I do? A. There is room for difference of opinion on this question, but consider this: Most Way members were committed believers before they were led astray. The Apostle Paul presents an excellent description of this in his second letter to the Corinthian church: "I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough... Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ" (II Corinthians 11:1-4, 11-13). Return to the practice you had before joining the Way. If speaking in tongues was beneficial, then continue it if you wish. If, however, you began speaking in tongues during Power for Abundant Living or under Way tutelage, then do not continue this practice, because The Way is promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations, as 2 Corinthians 11 describes. One finds evangelical believers who speak in tongues and others who do not.

Dickie and Onslow

I think I told you about the time one of our cats brought a live rabbit up to our second story window. . . . through a ripped screen . . . . and into our bedroom at 2:00 AM. . . . placing it on the bed we were sleeping in. . . . didn't I? Woken from a sound sleep. . . hubby can't find his glasses. . . . I am standing on the bed screaming like a loon. . . . the cat is trying to protect its prize and the chase of the century which followed? Classic country living.

My opinion here We are speaking of two distinct things here. . . . .in TWI SIT pretty much was a mantra or form of one. . . . and you are right, it is not all 9 all the time. I think the groan the HS intercedes with is much deeper than SIT via TWI. . . it is God speaking to God. The Spirit of God. . . . knows and communes within the trinity too deeply for our comprehension. We don't have the words or know how to express that deep longing, desire and need for complete restoration, so He Himself intercedes. It is beyond words. Those verses in Romans are dealing with our present unglorified state. . . . the context is glorification, like it says. . . . we are waiting for the redemption of our body, just as the creation is waiting for the lifting of the curse. That is why a couple verses later it says no, we are more than conquerors in all these things that happen in our body. . . . because even though in our present state there may be suffering, famine, persecution. . . there is a future glory awaiting us. Nothing will separate us from this love of God. They are not the same thing as TWI taught. It is two separate experiences. Genuine tongues. . . . and the HS interceding with groanings which cannot be uttered. But, then we have to confront what it is we were probably doing in TWI. That is not really popular around here with people who still practice SIT or follow in some manner TWI theology. However, Kimberly's post below illustrates the point I want to make. Some of these people were exactly what scripture reveals. . . brute beasts and they treated others shamefully. They are the false teachers scripture so perfectly describes. False teachers among you introducing destructive heresies. Nothing is more wicked than someone claiming to speak for God when he is really batting for Satan. That is who we were listening to. . . . those who claimed to speak for God. . . . but were not. They are described as self-willed, reviling where they have no knowledge, stains and blemishes, eyes full of adultery, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, forsaking the right way, springs without water, mist driven by a storm, speaking arrogant words of vanity, enticed by fleshly desires, promising freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption. Unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, counting it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. . . . They prey on the weak, unstable, and those young in the faith. Any of this sound familiar? These guys. . . . at some point, do want to escape the moral corruption of the world and seek religion. . . even seek Jesus, but it is on THEIR terms. . . not His. They are bred within the church and have access to true teachings, but they are half in and half out, and eventually they reject the truth and try to entice others. That is exactly who VP was. . . .they identify with Jesus outwardly, they know the lingo. . . but, they reject His Lordship. . . .their characteristics are arrogance and lust. It also says, God knows how to rescue the Godly from temptation. So, in Corinthians, Paul is speaking to a church who he calls unaware. . . infiltrated by these false teachers. . . . he says. . . these guys you bear beautifully, but you won't listen to me. He is confronting them on mixing Paganism into their church service. . . . it says they were carried away(ecstatic) and actually calling Jesus accursed. He keeps drawing a distinction between what the Corinthians were doing and genuine gifts. In seeking showy demonstrations or abilities. . . . they were vulnerable to counterfeited gifts. There were Corinthians within the church who had true gifts. . . that made it more confusing. The gift the Corinthians prized the most was SIT. It was the one abused greatly and counterfeited the most. Look back to Acts 8 and Simon the Sorcerer asking to pay for power that whoever he lays hands on might SIT. . . .Simon Magus. . . the father of Simony. . . of gnostics. The people in Corinth were listening to false teachers. Paul told them. . . "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." It is no different than what happened to us in TWI. We followed a false teacher, we were led astray and we sought a outward show of our faith. . . . the PROOF. We were vulnerable to counterfeit gifts and a false gospel with another Jesus and a different spirit. A false sense of security, a false sense of salvation, and if it was all so true. . . . why didn't we all remain? I could keep going. . . it gets uglier, but it usually ends with someone biting my head off. . . or accusing me of biting and devouring my brethren. . . it is in reality. . . quite the opposite.

I am pretty sure that I read TWI sometimes monitors this site(WayGB)? Just imagine what they would think and say about this thread. . . . about us. We all know the verbiage and the deep spiritual conspiracy theories which abound. . . . complete with a bloated sense of self-importance in God's TWI only kingdom. Run that discourse through your head once, for old times sake, and that will pretty much answer the original question. :)

Remind me to tell you about the time the live chicken was stuck to hubby's head. . . .

Interesting article for those who struggle with trinitarian theology. http://bible.org/art...arian-worldview In The Name Of The Father, Son And Holy Spirit: Constructing A Trinitarian Worldview "It is part of the pathos of Western theology that it has often believed that while trinitarian theology might well be of edificatory value to those who already believe, for the outsider it is an unfortunate barrier to belief, which must therefore be facilitated by some non-trinitarian apologetic, some essentially monotheistic 'natural theology.' My belief is the reverse: that because the theology of the Trinity has so much to teach about the nature of our world and life within it, it is or could be the centre of Christianity's appeal to the unbeliever, as the good news of a God who enters into free relations of creation and redemption with his world. In the light of the theology of the Trinity, everything looks different. [Colin Gunton]"

Another familiar example of Mystical Manipulation. . . . IMO. . . . was SIT. It was not set up to be spontaneous, however, we were led into it. . . . either during the last session of the class, by way of RTHS book, or by someone who had taken the class. Didn't it set VP up as someone spiritual? Someone who had great insight into the mysteries of God? It did serve to give him credibility. Didn't it make him look spiritually advanced? Give him some divine authority along with all his special revelation? I KNOW this ticks some people off here, but just stop and consider. . . . please. Look at it from a biblical perspective if it helps. . . . . with all the scripture we can regurgitate, does any of it sound like God is going to unlock the mysteries of "perfect prayer" supposedly hidden since the 1st century. . . . . to a drunk who abused unstable young women for sport? Even if he did "borrow" the method. . . . there are real ministers out there for God to enlighten. It can be induced. . . I led people into SIT while I was a WOW. . . . a few of them unsure there was a God. Fence sitters. If you set people up and the conditions are right. . . . anyone can do it. Other religions, that have nothing to do with Christianity, SIT. . . does that mean it is their proof of the new birth as well? Wasn't it suppose to be a special gift for Christians to know that they know? I am thinking. . . maybe. . . . VP just may have mislead us. . http://bible.org/art...peaking-tongues

I am thankful for legs and feet and all. . . really . . . . but, my brother-in-law brought me an excellent box of gorgeous chocolates from Geneva. . . gotta say . . . I was pretty thrilled with that gift.

Hissssssss! Meow Twinky, We had another little kitty event the other night. I was getting ready for family to arrive for a nice stay. . . . I was in a very happy mood. . . puttering around, fire burning in the wood stoves. . . snow outside. . . big pot of spaghetti sauce and meatballs cooking. . . . home alone just really relaxing. Me and three cats. The cats have a basket of toys in the kitchen and they often take them out and play hard skidding around the rug in the kitchen. . . . I was in the kitchen getting their food ready while they were going nuts with what I thought was their toys. Oh wasn't that cute. . . . even Onslow was playing hard. I brought over the plates to set them down expecting them to come right over. . . they kept playing really fast. . . . as I was bending down I heard an ugly high pitched squeal and looked over. . . . they didn't have toys, they had not one, but TWO live mice. I don't do mice. I scream for someone else!! There was no one else home. So, of course, I still screamed. . . ran out of the kitchen grabbing the phone on the way out. . . called hubby and promptly started to cry. He talked me through getting the broom to shoo the cats. . . . which I did. . . and he told me to shut the door to the kitchen and wait for him. Well, it is a swinging door and as soon as I got one cat out another one came back . . . . I could see those mice running back and forth looking for escape . . . it is a glass door. I was hysterical. The cat's were, I swear, laughing at me. . . and shamelessly taking advantage of my unhinged state. Chaos for 1/2 an hour until my son came home and rescued me. I was cat wrangling while watching icky mice whose lives I didn't really want to save, but dangit. . . . I had company coming. Ian got the mice out the mudroom backdoor. . . brave soul. . . . after all that. . . the cat's went upstairs to take a nap. . . but, I was shot. I don't always like living in the country. . . . I can't stand how cats toy with the mice. . . . and I wasn't about to clean up dead mouse. . . . or regurgitated mouse as is usually the case. Figures they would get industrious right when I was basking in hearth, home, and family. Usually a mouse can run across their paws and they wouldn't blink an eye.

I don't think many of us thought to ourselves. . . "I think I will join a cult today and ruin my life for awhile". . . .we were preyed upon as well. Victims of our naive desire to make a difference. . . . or our very human existential search for answers. . . . it was suppose to be a class on the bible. Not a cult. Our heads were messed with pretty good. If it wasn't subtle, we may not have been sucked into it. . . . but, it was a gradual process. . . . people don't join cults . . . they are slowly persuaded. Not all people in cults wear robes and sell flowers. VP was a good old farm boy from Ohio. . . . talking about the BIBLE. A father figure. Who knew? I didn't. Lifton's 8 Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989) I think the greatest challenge post TWI is to retain any kind of faith at all. . . they took a great deal . . . . including balance. _

Hi, I hope you stay around awhile. Yes, I have come to see that Jesus is God. Fully human and fully divine. . . . not a mortal God. God has revealed Himself to mankind in many ways. . . . but, the final and greatest way is in the person of Jesus. He is the "word" because He is God's complete revelation of Himself to us. God . . . . in Christ. . . . reconciling the world unto Himself. Nothing in scripture makes sense without the identity of Jesus. And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. That is how we now know God. . .He is the fullness of Him who fills all and all. . . not someone to bypass on our way to God. . . HE is the way. . . . for all eternity. . . He is who we know. The bible points to a person. . . . cover to cover. Isn't scripture where we were all seeking God? Isn't scripture a revelation of God? Scripture is the revelation of who? Jesus Christ. . . front to back. A knowledge outside of Him as God. . . . that . . . is another faith. The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. In the OT people looked forward to His coming. . . they were searching for Him because God promised. . . they kept saying "How long?" "How long?". He finally comes after a 400 year period of darkness. . . shows up and is rejected by all but a few. . . . even after the resurrection there are only 120 waiting for Him . . . . a lot of them women. . over 500 had seen Him post resurrection. . . . they knew it was Him . . . Herod even knew He rose from the dead. . . he paid off the guards! Even after being there and seeing these things people still denied who He was. . . . to this day people still deny it in various forms. . . . denying who He Himself claimed to be and calling Him someone else. . . . denying He ever existed or indifference to who He is. . . it is all the same thing. It is also how we end up with the major and minor religions. . . . they all take Him in part. My thoughts anyway.

I don't know about TWI's special list. . . . but, if you don't find it. . . . you can go to any Christian bookstore or most Walmarts and pick one up in poster form. Those lists have been around for a long while. http://www.zazzle.co...444740362480219

I got in during the 80's and I still have all my teeth. :)

From the molded glass eye. . . . he was the creepy dead stare.

So, what were the voices we were hearing? I don't believe it was God almighty giving us *revelation* . . . . i.e. exposing someone's deepest, darkest, and most personal secrets for sport. . . . . or telling us what brand of soap to buy. Not even revealing the *color* of someone's heart. Remember that? Now we are getting into seeing things. Maybe it was just some kind of inner dialogue with ourselves? That can be very real. I am sure there were times it turned out to be right. . . . but, I don't think that is proof of anything. People give off signals. . . body language. . . . micro expressions. . . .interests, what they read, focus on, speak of. . . and we watched others. We were on guard. Paranoid enough to spy on each other in the name of *Spiritual perception and awareness*. We spent a great deal of time in each others lives without proper boundaries. . . most of us were conditioned to believe we needed to know *spiritual* details about others. It makes sense that if someone consistently lied, or struggled with issues of sexuality, or was naturally charming. . . . we would pick up on that. We didn't always consider before jumping to conclusions. Perhaps that is another carry over issue to deal with. Some people actually read others for a living. . . jury consultants for example. People are trained to do this. If you break it down it was not so phenomenal. . . . but, it was insidious. A really good way to control the ranks and to pit us against each other for some percieved greater good. *Discerning of spirits*. . . . well, it makes sense. . . TWI was a breeding ground for vice. Lots of practice material! It spoke to ego. . . . a super speacial x-ray vision power that no one else understood like we did. It made us unique. . . but, maybe not in a good way. People were hurt, marriages destroyed, children turned out from homes. . . we can even pinpoint an era termed the *Homo Purge*. . . . hello? Often because of inner dialogue. . . icky stuff. . . and maybe it does in some small way carry over in some lives post TWI. Just look at *Personal Prophecy* that is this inner dialogue on steroids. I think God has little to do with any of this.

Not only did he teach us to fear. . . fear. . . which has got to take real talent. . .. but, VP also took things we read like. . . in this life you will have many troubles. . . and somehow convinced most . . . . . . if you have troubles in this life something is wrong with your "believing". Well, if you "believe" what is says. . . troubles seem a natural outcome in this life. . . no? How did he get most of us to disregard what was actually written. . . . and believe the opposite?? How did he do that? Fascinating. . . . . and some people will go to the grave convinced he was right.

"Consider how much inner conflict that would create for someone who really sat down and thought about what was going on around them?" Also affectionately known as Cognitive Dissonance. . . . . Good times

Seems some of it could be a genetic propensity and some things caused by the environment we were exposed to. . . how much we internalized. . . . how much *self* was ceded. It is by no means a blanket assessment. PTSD symptoms are probably related to how much one believed their life was in actual danger. http://www.freedomof.../ptsd-cuddy.htm Some people walked away relatively unscathed. . . of their own volition. . . The thing that struck me was hearing voices and obeying them. . . . we often put people on medication for this. . . TWI encouraged and rewarded people who heard God by way of revelation. . . . it was used as a tool to control. . . and we were trained to do it. . . . practice the presence of God, SIT, and listen to the small still voice in our heads. Maybe it was just an attempt at honing intuition. . . I don't know. . . but, when you still have two or more rattling around in there. . . . it may be problematic. When you are going against your natural inclinations of understanding and believing some strange stuff like Mstar pointed out. . . Mother Theresa bad. . . Hitler misunderstood. .. . it might cause some issues later on. . . . I walked away on my own. . . took back my last ABS and basically got ticked off. . . . I am still disgusted. Before I left I had to start making big girl decisions that ran contrary to much of TWI theology. Situation forced this on me. . . . made leaving fairly easy. . . . some people got the boot. Since the WC thread I have been thinking about individuality within the group. . . I think I was wrong. . . it really does depend on the person. I can see where anxiety might be an issue if someone's situation was different.

No, let me explain. . . we are in the world.. . . not of the world. . .and I always took that to mean the things like traffic laws . . . were more like guidelines. . . . or for our learning. We are no longer under the law. . . maybe it means what it says and says what it means. HEY. . . . . are you the one that mowed down that little Johnny from the first session of the class?!?

Catchy, it rolls right off the tongue. . . . gets my vote.