geisha779

I didn't know where else to put this, my brother-in-law sent it from Haiti. . . . he said the amount of work to be done is staggering. . . and "I see hope, anticipation, and resilience in her - and most everybody else I come into contact with. " <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zCZdEegtmsAQ2vzB8j04iQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_2sMWMa9RcCU/S11sQGssYFI/AAAAAAAAA2c/e9j2lUsBAuA/s400/faces%20of%20haiti_22Jan%202010.jpg" /></a>

You are a very lucky man and she is a very lucky woman. . . . you truly get my vote as cutest couple :) . . . . enjoy each other and the kids. . . ! . . . . and why am I still awake at 4:15 AM?

When Jesus asked. . . who do men say I am . . He didn't set out on a campaign to correct everyone. . . and they called Him a few different things . . . He was concerned with who His disciples said He was. . . . He is the Christ. . . . the Son of the living God. . . six days later. . . Peter saw the transfiguration. He saw who He is . . . pretty big deal. How do you come up with A single Unitarian response to those verses? As if they are all like TWI's . . . . They are all different. Someone needs to put it in a creed. "Who do you say I am?" That is trying to define the vast God of the universe or put Him in a box?. . . . Jesus asked the question. He thought it an important enough question. You can't define God . . . this is why He was manifest in the flesh . . . so you could know Him. He came to reveal Him. Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV Jehovah's Witnesses- Charles Taze Russell- "There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307) …"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself." (WT 12/15/1984 p29) Michael the archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ.."(New Heavens and New Earth pg.30-31)- Charles Taze Russell-"There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307) …"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself." (WT 12/15/1984 p29) Michael the archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ."(New Heavens and New Earth pg.30-3 Mormonism- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints- "..That Lucifer, the son of the morning, is our elder brother and the brother of Jesus Christ." (Apostle B. McConkie Mormon doctrine p.163-164) "...Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven," (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50-51). Jesus got married at Cana and had many wives Martha, Mary and others he also had many children," (J & D vol.1 345-346 vol.2 79-82 vol.4:259-260 the seer p.172) The Unification Church (Sun Myung Moon): "It is a great error to think Jesus was God Himself. Jesus is no different from other men."( Young Oon Kin, Divine Principle and its Application (HSA-UWC, 1968), p. 75.) "We must understand that this (John 8.58) also does not signify that Jesus was God Himself .Jesus on earth was a man no different from us except for the fact that He was born without original sin." (Divine Principle p. 212). Christian Science Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy): "Jesus Christ is not God, as Jesus Himself declared, but is the Son of God." (Science and Health Key to the Scriptures p.361). Jesus is the name of the man who, more than all other men, has presented Christ, the true idea of God. . . . Jesus is the human man, and Christ is the divine idea; hence the duality of Jesus the Christ. (Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health and Key to the Scriptures The First Church of Christ Scientist 1934, p. 361.) " he was the first human to understand the Divine Mind." " Jesus means "the highest human corporeal concept of the divine idea. . ." (ibid. p. 589). Christadelphians (John Thomas). "Jesus Christ did not exist as a person from eternity as one of the triune Godhead.... He did not actually come into being until He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and born in Bethlehem" (Christadelphian messenger no.46 the word made flesh p.3) Oneness Pentecostals "The Son of God existed from all eternity only as a plan in the mind of God." (The Oneness of God, D. Bernard p.295) "the role of the son is temporary and not eternal" (p.105, 108)""The Son of God refers to the humanity of Jesus." (Oneness of God, p.98) Way International Paul Wierwille taught "We, as well as Jesus Christ, were with God in His foreknowledge, but not in existence, before the world began. Neither did Jesus Christ" (Jesus Christ Is Not God pp. 31-32). that Jesus did not exist except in the mind of God before conception in Mary's womb, and "Jesus Christ the Son of God, was made by God" (Ibid, pp. 103-04). Christian Spiritual Alliance The Christian Spiritual Alliance (Roy Eugene Davis): "Jesus was not the only begotten." (Roy Eugene Davis, the Hidden teachings of Jesus Revealed 1968, p. 9, emphasis added. Iglesia Ni Cristo (Felix Manalo) "If there is any verse which people claim proves the alleged deity of Christ, this verse has been wrongly interpreted by the people." (Pasugo 1984 May/june p.14) "Col.1:15 states very clearly, Christ is 'the firstborn of every creature,' and is therefore not the creator."(Pasugo Jan/.Feb 1980 p.37) "The scriptures do not teach that Christ is the creator of all things." (PASUGO, March/April 1982, p. 26.)"We now affirm that Jn.1:1 does not call Jesus Christ God…'It does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity." (God's message July/Sept 1995 p.14) Unity School of Christianity (Charles Fillmore), "Most of our religious beliefs are based on the [erroneous] idea that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God." Unity (periodical), October, 1976, pp. 59-60.) Urantia book- Jesus Christ is not identified as being uniquely God the Son, second Person of the Holy Trinity. Instead he is Michael, one of many God the Sons. The Michael of Nebadon is the `only-begotten Son' personalizing this 611,121st universal concept of divinity and infinity," P. 53 In other words, Jesus (Michael) is the Son of the Son of God and the Father in the sense that when these two beings had a simultaneous original thought for the 611,121st time, Jesus (Michael) was begotten. (p.366). Unitarian Universalism: Unitarian Universalist minister Waldemar Argow states: "They [unitarian/Universalists] do not regard him as a supernatural creature, the literal son of God who was miraculously sent to earth as part of an involved plan for the salvation of human souls.', (Waldemar Argow, Unitarian Universalism-Some Questions Answered (pamphlet) (Boston, MA. Unitarian Universalism Assoc., nd.), p. 6.) Anthroposophy (Rudolph Steiner): "[Jesus] ... must be designated in the truest sense of the word as a 'mere man'.. ( Rudolf Steiner, From Jesus to Christ 1973, pp. 51-52. Theosophy (Helena. P Blavatsky): "Nowhere throughout the New Testament is Jesus found calling himself God, or anything higher than 'a son of God,' the son of a 'Father,' common to all." Helena Petrovna Blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine (India: Theosophical Publishing House 1971), vol. 5, p. 369n. Word faith movement John Avanzini "Jesus had a nice house, a big house." (Believer's Voice of Victory, (TBN) 1/20/91) "Jesus was handling big money." (Praise the Lord (TBN), 9/15/88) Kenneth Copeland "The image being that he was a copy, looked just like, if you stood Adam upside God they look just exactly alike...." (The Authority of the Believer IV, Tape #01-0304) "Jesus has a beginning and an end." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303) God is a "spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet." (Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977.) "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell" (Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition (Kenneth Copeland, Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129.) Benny Hinn '"What was the appearance of God the Father? Like that of a man...God has the likeness of fingers and hands and a face." (Good Morning Holy Spirit, (Benny Hinn, Word, 1991) p. 82) "Have you been begotten? So was He. Don't let anyone deceive you. Jesus was reborn. " (Benny Hinn, Our Position 'In Christ,' Part 1 1991), videotape #TV-254. "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost - three separate individuals, one in essence, one in work - and, may I add, each one of them possesses His own spirit-body. " ("Praise the Lord", 10/23/92) Hagin speaking of Jesus "his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN'T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He's talking about spiritual death." A.R.E Association for Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce): "He is an ensample [example] for man, and only as a man, for He lived only as a man, He died as man."( Association for Research and Enlightenment Edgar Cayce, reading no. 900-10 from Circulating file: Jesus the Pattern and You, p. 53.) Edgar Cayce-"Q. `When did the knowledge come to Jesus that he was to be the savior of the world? "A. `When he fell in Eden... In Adam, he brought sin,'" (Psychic Healing, p. 75). The Bahai Faith (The Bab; Baha'u'llah): "Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour. Firuz Kazemzeden World Order summer 1978 p.39 the national spiritual assembly of the bahai's of the United states) Was Christ within god, or God within Christ ? No in the name of God. " (Abdul Baha Questions p. 97) Many Christians are surprised to find that a new messenger from God has already come, saying that he is the return of Christ." (The Return of Christ p. 4 1978 Bahai publishing trust) Islam- Sura 43:59 "Jesus was no more than a mortal whom Allah favored and made an example to the Israelites. They are unbelievers who say God is Messiah, Mary's son." Surat al Nisa 4:157-158 "And because of their saying: we slew the messiah Jesus son of Mary. Allahs messenger-they slew him not nor crucified- Sura 43:59 Church Universal and Triumphant-Mark and Elizabeth Prophet "The Christ Self, then, has communication with the Father who in both Principle and Person is the Presence of God, the 1 AM THAT 1 AM, or the 1 AM Presence." (Mysteries of the Holy Grail Arch angel Gabriel p.217) the Prophets explain, "Jesus was both the actual and symbolical representative of this Christ Self. Jesus was the example. the one who self-realized the Christ Mind and was at one with It at all times. Jesus himself was not the only begotten Son of the Father. The Christ of him was and is the only begotten Son of the Father " (The Lost Teachings of Jesus p. 241). Eckankar (Paul Twitchell): "do not put Him [Jesus] in a special category, for all saviours and prophets who came to earth to help mankind did their part arid passed on to the glory of the heavenly kingdom .. The Foundation of Human understanding The Foundation of Human understanding (Roy Masters): -you must not have any concepts of what Christ is like or God is like. it all must be an inward revelation process-" (Roy Masters (tape), -The Mystery of Golgotha. The Gurdjieff Foundation (Gurdfieff): -[in a conversation] ... Gurdjieff said: 'I hate your Jesus, poor Jewish boy'-the emphasis being on' your.'"' (C S. Nott Teachings of Gurdjieff. A Pupil's Journal 1978, p. 103 Course in miracles- (Helen Schucman) "Jesus is a man, who is like all other men, and the Christ idea, which all men possess and must eventually demonstrated. He becomes the pattern for all of us. Jesus the man was used by the Christ to demonstrate the illusion of the world."...Jesus became what all of you must be. ...Is he the Christ? O yes, along with you. ...Is he God's only Helper? No, indeed. For Christ takes many forms with different names..." (pp. 83-84)."The Son of God ... is not Jesus but our combined Christ consciousness. . ."The name Jesus refers to one who was a man but who saw the face of Christ in all his brothers.... So he became identified with Christ, a man no longer at one with God." The Masons- Manly Hall who started the Masons refers to Jesus as "The Solar Diety' Jesus of Nazareth had attained a level of consciousness, of perfection, that has been called by various names: cosmic consciousness, soul regeneration, philosophic initiation, spiritual illumination, Brahmic Splendor, Christ-consciousness. (Lynn F Perkins, The Meaning of Masonry, CSA Press, 1971, 53) Lola Davis the New Age "Christ" resides on a different plane of consciousness from that which we experience. There he directs the Masters, "a group of advanced souls, most of them discarnate ... known variously as the White Brotherhood, The Great White Lodge, the Masters of Wisdom, the Hierarchy, and the Angels around the Throne." (Lola Davis toward a world religion for a new age p.186) Matthew Fox- The Cosmic Christ is the divine pattern that connects in the person of Jesus Christ (but by no means is limited to that person). (The Coming of the Cosmic Christ p.135) Divinity is found in all creatures. The divine name from Exod. 3:14, "1 Am who I Am," is appropriated by Jesus who shows us how to embrace our own divinity. The Cosmic Christ is the "I am" in every creature. (P154) Babara Marx Hubbard- "Who is this child? This child is the Christ-child within who has emerged victorious, fully born, incarnated as every member of the human race who evolves." "This UNITY OF THE ELECT is the key to the transformation from Adam to Christ, from Homo sapiens to HOMO UNIVERSALIS, from creature to co-creator, from self-centered to whole centered beings." David and Naomi Rice.... The Christ is within each and everyone of God's creatures. …. . .the Christ is the spark of pure energy of God that has always existed within the individual manifestation of God in in many forms, but has been forgotten. (Messiah and the 2nd coming John David and Naomi Rice 1982 Coptic press Wyoming MI) David Spangler stated: Christ is the same force as Lucifer...... Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into a New Age ... each of us in some way is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation ... for it is an invitation into the New Age. (David Spangler reflections on the Christ p.44-45) Tara Center- THE CHRIST IS IN THE WORLD. A great World Teacher for people of every religion and no religion. A practical man with solutions to our problems. He loves ALL humanity... Christ is here, my friends. Your Brother walks among you. (Tara Center, full-page ad in USA Today, January 12, 1987) stated: Christ is the same force as Lucifer...... Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into a New Age ... each of us in some way is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation ... for it is an invitation into the New Age.(David Spangler reflections on the Christ p.44-45) Tara Center- THE CHRIST IS IN THE WORLD. A great World Teacher for people of every religion and no religion. A practical man with solutions to our problems. He loves ALL humanity... Christ is here, my friends. Your Brother walks among you. (Tara Center, full-page ad in USA Today, January 12, 1987) Benjamen Creme's opinion, -given to him by his master, Lord Maitreya, you and I are not God and Jesus did not claim to be God."The Christ is the Master 'Of all the Masters , but He is not God, and never claimed to be God" Rosicrucianism (AMORO (H. Spencer Lewis): "Nowhere in the teachings and practices of Jesus can we find the least intimation that His great system was intended to bring salvation to the physical body of man. Even the salvation of the soul was not taught by Jesus, and all references in the Christian Bible to the salvation of the soul constitute a misinterpretation, a misunderstanding, of the secret (Rosicrucianism] principle that Jesus taught.( K Spencer Lewis, The secret Doctrine of Jesus (San Jose, CA-- Supreme Grand Lodge of AMORC), pp. 186-87,189-91.The Son is the highest initiate of the Sun"( The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception). "The Christ spirit which entered the body of Jesus when Jesus Himself vacated it, was a ray from the cosmic Christ. We may follow Jesus back in His previous incarnations and can trace his growth to the present day." (The Rosicrucian Philosophy p. 181) Science of Mind (Ernest Holmes): "Jesus is the name of a man. Christ means the Universal Principle of Divine Sonship.'(N. Kasturt Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. 8, Ist ed. 1975, p.144.) Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard): "Neither Lord Buddha nor Jesus Christ were OTs [that is, Operation Thetans, enlightened beings] according to the evidence. They were just a shade above clear [that is, relatively low on the Scientology scale of spiritual advancement." (Ability magazine no. 81 [c. 1959 p. 31.) Pierre Teilhard De Chardin- If a Christ is to be completely acceptable as an object of worship, he must be presented as the saviour of the Idea and reality of evolution. (P. 78) I believe that the Messiah whom we await, whom we all without any doubt await the universal Christ; that is to say, the Christ of evolution. (P. 96)Christianity and Evolution by Transcendental Meditation (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi): "[When] Christ said, Be still and know that I am God.'[He also meant) 'Be still and know that you are God."' And, "I don't think Christ ever suffered [on the cross].... Those who count upon the suffering, it is a wrong interpretation of the life of Christ and the message of Christ. It is wrong."105 Lucis Trust (Alice Bailey): -The Incarnation, which is for popular Christianity synonymous with the historical birth and earthly life of Christ, is for the mystic not only this but also a Perpetual cosmic and personal process.- (Alice Bailey, From Bethlehem to Calvary Lucis Trust, 1976, P. 7 Matthew Fox- The Cosmic Christ is the divine pattern that connects in the person of Jesus Christ (but by no means is limited to that person). (The Coming of the Cosmic Christ p.135) Divinity is found in all creatures. The divine name from Exod. 3:14, "1 Am who I Am, "is appropriated by Jesus who shows us how to embrace our own divinity. The Cosmic Christ is the "I am" in every creature. (P154) Agne Yoga Fellowship Agne Yoga Fellowship (Swami Kriyananda): 'What is Christ? St. Simeon the new theologian wrote, 'I move my hand, and Christ moves, who is my hand." Swami Kriyananda, Eastern Thoughts, Western Thoughts (Nevada City, CA: Ananda Publications, 1975), pp. 67-68. Self-Realization Fellowship Self-Realization Fellowship (Paramahansa Yogananda): "in Christian Scriptures it [Christ] is called the 'only begotten son'. . .. It is the universal consciousness, oneness with God, manifested by Jesus, Krishna, and other avatars." Paramahansa Yogananda, Man's Eternal Quest (Los Angeles, CA- Self Realization Fellowship, 1975), pp. 470-71; cf., Self Realization (Los Angeles, CA-Self Realization Fellowship), Winter 1979, pp, 340, Sri Chinmoy Centers (Sri Chinmoy): "To say that Christ is the Savior and the only way to salvation is a mistake. ... He laughs when His followers say He is the only savior.- Sri Chininoy, A Hundred Years from Now (Jamaica, NY. Agni press, 1974), pp, 39-43. YoganandaYogananda "man reincarnates on earth until he has consciously regained his status as a son of God." The Divine Life Society Integral Yoga Institute (Sivananda/ Satchidananda): "Remember that Christ is not a person, It's an experience-Christhood. Like Nirvana or Buddha. It's an experience.. . " (Satchinananda speaks p.47-48 June 17, 1975) Sri Yukteswar said: Theologians have interpreted Christ's words in such passages as "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (Jn. 14:6). Jesus meant, never that he was the sole Son of God, but that no man can attain the unqualified Absolute, the transcendent Father beyond creation, until he has first manifested the 'Son' or activating Christ Consciousness within creation. Jesus, who had achieved entire onenness with that Christ consciousness, identified himself with it inasmuch as his own ego had long since been dissolved.' (Paramahansa Yogananda Autobiography of a Yogi Self Realization fellowship p.178) 3 HO Sikhism 3 HO Sikhism (Yogi Bhajan): Jesus was a man of God only who had to become qualified for hiknow if Joseph was his father and his mother created "her son to really be a Christ," but not a savior. Heads of Truth, Winter, March 1978, p. 20; Spring 1975, p. 13; Spring 1978, pp. 32, 39, Beds of Truth no. 31, p. 15.) Vedanta: Swami Probhavananda alleges we "cannot accept Christ as the only Son of God, Those who insist on regarding the life and teachings of Jesus as unique are bound to have great difficulty in understanding them." Swami Prabhavananda, The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta 1963, p. 47. Sai Baba Society (Sathya Sai Baba): "The inner mystery of the incarnation [is] God incarnating in all. All are One; the One is All. Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism Diasaku Ikeda): "The doctrines of the divinity and the resurrection Of Christ are outside the province of rational thought .... Christians are schizophrenic." Noah S. Brannen, Soka Gakkai, Japan's Militant Buddhists (Richmond, VA: John Knox Press, 1968), pp. 98-99. http://www.letusreason.org/Cult13.htm

I don't know if I am just feeling overly emotional today. . . . or if I never really considered the depth of what you have been through. . . . but, for some reason this just hit me . . . . Jeff, you are an amazing person, a good man, and that you strive for some kind of balance speaks so loudly about the kind of life and heart you do have. I so enjoy what you share and you often remind me of things I need reminding of. . . . God Bless . . . I mean it! Your "life" speaks for itself.

and . . . . the trinity is 3 distinct "persons" within the Godhead. That argument falls apart when confronted with the definition of the trinity itself. People get hung upon the concept of "persons". . . . .it is a pretty amazing description of God found within the scriptures. . . . A completely self-contained God, overflowing in relationship to himself . . . . creating us out of that overflowing love and complete joy within Himself. Magnanimous in sharing that perfection and inviting us to experience love the way He does within Himself. . . . If one can believe it is God. . . . in Christ. . . . dwelling within a person's heart by way of the Holy Spirit. . . . they can understand the theology or man's attempt to explain God with the word trinity. It really is a beautiful thing because it reveals an amazing God.

Whew. . . you saved me! FYI. . . . . trying to tarnish my halo while offering to polish it? Just adding more to your workload.

Doesn't seem out of line to me in the least. . . . now I am curious :) . . . . but, I am going to go with what Waysider and Mstar said. . . . that makes perfect sense to me.

Told ya we wouldn't want to be perceived as having an opinion. . . .

Oh sarcasm. . . . . how unique around here. . . . great way to contribute to the topic! As to your question . . . sure you can polish my halo. . . come on over. . . my silver is looking dull too.

Jeff, Lot was tainted by being in Sodom. . . .I think that is why Abraham stopped bargaining with God over Sodom . . . Here we have Lot, willing to offer up his two daughters instead of the angels. . . the daughters would have been raped and killed! He offered his own children to appease a mob. That wasn't just hospitality. . . it was desperation . . . . but, these guys could have taken care of themselves. Then we have the wife. . . who turned back to look because she couldn't go ten feet without doing the very thing she was told more than once NOT to do. . . . . . and turns out the daughters were not really all that honest either. THAT was the cream of the crop in Sodom. When Lot and Abraham separated it doesn't really say Lot was a loser. . . . Abraham was greater in status and yielded to Lot which just revealed Abraham's character. But, Lot, seemed to have gone downhill in Sodom. . . . he was suppose to be a judge in that city. He was not very effective there. . . . yet, it still says he was righteous or right. When God chose Israel. . . . . he told them they were not to have pity on the people that God gave over to them. He said. . . . they will be a snare for you. Sodom was a snare for Lot. He lived with these people every day. I really think that many people who got involved in TWI. . . . especially in the early years. . . . were genuine loving Christians. . . . Jesus freaks. Yet, they were tainted by the group, influenced and ensnared by VP et al. and they were pulled away from their first love. . . Christ. Influenced. . . sometimes heavily to other gods. In the OT it was God enacting judgment through Israel on groups like you have described. What is the difference between that and what Paul says in Corinthians about their ends being what they deserve? Everyone will be judged. . . . face their maker. . . . it is kind of the exercise of this life isn't it? Choices? We are warned to about groups like TWI. We just don't go around watching sulfur and fire raining down on their heads. . . . yet. We don't take any joy out of any of it it either. . . .

Her blog says she is a social worker in the prison system.. . . . .she probably has a finely tuned BS meter now. . . .in Ex-Way world that could easily be confused as " looney" or even loony!:) A perceptive person unwilling to compromise, but still willing to help? An enigma in cult circles.

That is about the best summation I have read here.

I am so glad to chat with you SS. . . . but, please take note . . . I may be VERY wrong about things. I was in a nasty cult, and although I have had the chance to spend a little time with some very educated Christians. . . . I am still trying to work these things out as well. I change my mind when I am wrong. . . . believe it or not. :) If you are asking me why God didn't intervene in the holocaust. . . . or prevent it. . . . the simple answer is . . . . I have no idea. The Final Solution was to be the extermination of all Jews in Europe. That clearly did not happen. What did happen was that there was a much smaller population for Israel when she became a nation in 1948. That is so heartbreaking to consider, but that was a direct result of the death camps. You have mentioned two specific events. . . . the holocaust. . . and the fighting between SOME Palestinians and Israel. BTW, the Palestinians are a warm, loving, and generous people. God loves them too. Maybe we are asking the wrong questions? Maybe we should ask ourselves. . . . . WHY the Jewish people? Why was there a Jewish question which required a solution and did Hitler just pull this out of thin air? What is their history and does it really reflect anything spoken about in the OT. . . . . You are probably familiar with the term Diaspora.? The scattering of the Jews throughout history. Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. Did you know that they were often exiled from the places they settled ? Often horribly persecuted? Centuries of persecution. It seemed to culminate with the Final Solution. . . . and then the return to Israel, which became a nation again in 1948 . . . . May 14th. (I think)The Jewish people make up a very tiny tiny percentage of the worlds population, yet they have had a tremendous presence and influence. In some places so much so . . . .when they were exiled, the nation who exiled them would suffer real hardship because they had made up a large part of their gild. . . their bankers. . . Landlords. . . . legal minds. . . and so on. I think if you are really interested in understanding the OT. . . . it might help to understand some history of the Jewish people. God's plan is evident in the history of mankind. . .. not obvious. . . . but I think evident. God's dealing with Israel is evident too. Just familiarize yourself with their history and work backward. Look at the Law of Return for Jews. . . look at the demographics and how they are returning. God has not finished with Israel. . . . God chose them for a purpose. . I do believe they are still God's chosen people. . . . and that purpose will be fulfilled. Deut 7. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God The Lord has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. 7 The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. 10 But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. . . . . 16 You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you. Deut 26:18 And the LORD has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands. Isaiah 62: 1-12 God chose them to be light to other people. It doesn't say they were better. . . . it says they were fewest, but God loved them. He is faithful to the promises He made to the Patriarchs. They were set apart for God's purpose. He actually calls them a stubborn people. I have no idea why He chose one nation to bring Himself to the others? They were to be a people for renown, praise and for glory. . . but they would not listen. The prophets were there to warn Israel to turn back. . . I can give you a few examples. . . . but, it is basically the whole OT. 1 Kings 9 . . . Ezekiel 33:7-20 (God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked) Your fellow citizens will say the way of the Lord is not right, when it is their own way that is not right. Jer 12:17, Zeph 3:20. . . Zach 10: 1-12. . . . . You ask if God forgot about them. No. . . but, it would help if you looked at what He said was going to happen if they turned away from Him. . . . and they did. . . time and again. . . until the final rejection of the Messiah. It does have a happy ending. But, it has not yet happened. That is our hope too. It is still an unfolding story.

Shame on them all . . . Limbaugh, Robertson . . . . my brother-in-law just arrived in Haiti with Oxfam. They managed to get there quickly with aid . . . not politics or judgment.

Dependency and GRATITUDE. . . . so far I have seen on their site. . . . they set themselves up as the unique and only place to learn how to read the bible, because it is a fact it is not understood today by anyone else. . . . . they tell people it is only for the serious. . . . and to be accepted as serious. . . . you have to be a disciple of the word. People then become thankful to the ministry, because they were accepted as serious enough(I bet that line in the sand keeps moving). . . . and they were taught the bible like no one else anywhere. That site is loaded with really persuasive and manipulative language. Maybe they just smile now when they manipulate. You still hear it here sometimes. . . . I'm thankful for the truth I learned in TWI. It all makes me want to puke. But. . . they don't commit anything to writing until they are sure. . . . except the things they have had to change.

Eastern religions. . . I wasn't sure which one we meant. :) It would be a fun discussion. Anytime Oakspear. . . you are a pleasure to chat with. And yes, the God of the bible forgives sin, but that does not erase consequences in the flesh. As a Christian, you can still down a fifth of Tequila . . . . but, you will have a heck of a hang over the next morning. TWI kind of taught instant sanctification. . . which is part of the Holiness Movement. What happens then is people who do something they consider sinful. . . . often think they have lost their holiness(sanctification). . . . or the other extreme we know from TWI is that it doesn't matter what you do because you are sanctified. Sanctification is a life long process. Sin is really a heart issue. Sanctification means being set apart . . . . just like Israel was set apart by all those laws. . . . that was a shadow of what was to come. That is why in Hebrews Jesus is called a new and better way. We don't sanctify ourselves. . . . that is truly a work of the spirit. When God kept calling Israel back in the OT. . . . He would warn. . . and warn. . . . and then tell them what would happen if they didn't return. After they found out He meant what He said. . . . . . and they returned to Him. . . . He would deliver them. He promised them blessing after blessing. . . . only to have them wander off to dumb idols. God had a purpose for Israel. God loved them and offered Himself to them. They wanted to be His people. God is not a person you just give your word to and then reneg on it. He is faithful and will keep you faithful. . . . despite yourself. We usually come kicking and screaming when things are going good. . . . that is when sanctification can get painful and we end up coming back on our knees. You might wonder why they wandered if He is so great. . . . . well, we are free to do what we want. . . but not free to want what we should. People like their sins. . . . or their own way. . . . some people bare their teeth at the mention of sins. Others just laugh at it. Unless of course, they are the ones effected by an evil deed. . . . ever have someone owe you money?. . . . Scratch your new car?. . . . Steal your morning paper? . . . Take the last jelly donut. . . . The last dry towel? But fickle? We are the ones who are fickle. . . . God is the one who is faithful, but when we wander off things get a bit sticky. Not always.. . . depends how far one wanders. That was God being faithful to a covenant He made in the OT. Just like He is faithful today to those who accept Jesus Christ as the Lord of their life. He keeps us. You are not a Christian one day and the next an atheist. God is more faithful than that. In the Old Testament He always told Israel what He was going to do. . . . He was dealing with His own chosen people. He would lay it out in painful detail. That seems pretty fair to me. No? He gave many chances first. The concept of justice is a tricky thing. I do know that. . . I go back and forth on my ideas of justice. . . . but, there is nothing unjust about God in the OT or the NT. . . . maybe it doesn't match up with our concept all the time, but a free pass for every act? We remove Judges from the bench for that. . . . we don't take it lightly. I don't like the drug laws. . . . I think they are way too harsh. . . . but, someone who lost a child to drugs may feel differently. Who decides? God's justice is perfect. . . . but, He even went beyond it and acted as the justifier! He is the one offended by sin. . . . He is the judge. . . He condemned sin. . . . the sinner gets death. . . . sentence already passed. . . . but God, the judge. . . steps in and actually takes our JUST punishment upon Himself. . . . even though He is the one who was wronged. That is beyond. . . justice. Go figure.

Absolutely! And they don't have that down home, mid-west, ah shucks personality to front them anymore. It looks like they really don't care about growth or numbers. From their "About Us" page they basically come right out and say it. . . Riff Raff need not apply or don't bother unless you are serious about giving us your soul. The Way Ministry is designed for serious Biblical students who want to discipline themselves to the Word—disciples. Not all people want that, so we are a unique group with unique offerings of service. Wow, don't come knocking unless you are serious about selling out and BTW we are a unique little group who are the only ones that know how to teach you. It is a FACT the bible is not understood when read by others! Lack of spiritual strength caused by neglect of the Word of God may today be attributed to the fact that the Bible is not understood when read. People have not been taught how to understand things like figures of speech, Eastern customs, what revelation truly is, and the accuracy of the Word. Our ministry provides this service and direction. For God's plan in His Word to be made known requires someone teaching it to willing students—those who want to know. But, we just don't need that many people. . . . a few well to do lifers will keep us solvent. Right here they are preying on people new to the bible. . . who are probably a bit lost when approaching the scriptures. Appealing to ego, you want to know don't you? You are a serious bible student right? And my favorite. . . . promising secret heretofore hidden knowledge. . . . because no one else understands it. You want to be a disciple of the "word" don't you? Jesus? Jesus who? Same old subtle manipulative garbage.

Just go to their "About Us" page and you get a much better sense. They do claim to let people believe it for themselves. . . . which to me is highly questionable . . . no persuasion tactics??

It is very possible for TWI to change. . . . just like The Worldwide Church of God changed with the help of the Christian community. They would have to be willing to reach out beyond the same kind of Christ denying cults. . . . but, it really is possible. It has been done before. It just has not happened with TWI. Same kinds of doctrine which always lead to the same unethical practices. The apology wouldn't do me any good unless they had really repented and made the necessary changes. Otherwise. . . . it will just keep on recycling the same kind of abuse and hurt.

Again, I am intrigued. . . . smart cookie. . . . maybe you would enjoy this link . . . maybe not . . . it is a quick read. http://bible.org/ser...ogue-john-11-18 Greek historical backgrounds: As a philosophical term, lovgo" meant the 'world-soul', the soul of the universe. This was an all-pervading principle, the rational principle of the universe. It was a creative energy. In one sense, all things came from it; in another, men derived their wisdom from it. These concepts are at least as old as Heraclitus (6th cent. BC): the lovgo" is "always existent" and "all things happen through this lovgo"."28 Later Hellenistic thought: Philo of Alexandria, the Jewish philosopher of the early 1st century, frequently mentions the lovgo" (it appears over 1400 times in his writings), but he is really concerned with his Platonic distinction between this material world and the real, heavenly world of ideas. It was the Stoics who actually developed the concept of lovgo". They abandoned Plato's heavenly archetypes in favor of the thought (closer to Heraclitus) that the Universe is pervaded by lovgo", the eternal Reason. They were convinced of the ultimate rationality of the universe, and used the term lovgo" to express this conviction. It was the 'force' (!) that originated and permeated and directed all things. It was the supreme governing principle of the universe. But the Stoics did not think of the lovgo" as personal, nor did they understand it as we would understand God (i.e. as a person to be worshipped). The Evangelist, then, is using a term that would be widely recognized among the Greeks. But the 'man in the street' would not know its precise significance, any more than most of us would understand the terms 'relativity' or 'nuclear fission'. But he would know it meant something very important. The rest of the Fourth Gospel, however, shows little trace of acquaintance with Greek philosophy, and even less of dependence on it. John, in his use of lovgo", is cutting across the fundamental Greek concept of the gods: they were detached, they regarded the struggles and heartaches and joys and fears of the world with serene, divine lack of feeling. John uses lovgo" to portray a God so involved, so caring, so loving and giving that he becomes incarnate within his creation. William Barclay summarizes well: John spoke to a world which thought of the gods in terms of passionless apatheia and serene detachment. He pointed at Jesus Christ and said: 'Here is the mind of God; here is the expression of the thought of God; here is the lovgo". And men were confronted with a God who cared so passionately and who loved so sacrificially that His expression was Jesus Christ and His emblem a cross. . . . . . . Jewish Backgrounds: The ejn ajrch'/ of John 1:1 inevitably recalls Genesis 1:1, tyvarb. But oJ lovgo" also recalls <yhla rmayw, “and God said…” [cf. also Psalm 33:6, “By the word of Yahweh the heavens were made.”] There was also the “semi-personalization” of Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22 ff. And the Targums substitute Memra (“Word”) as an intermediary in many places: e.g. in Exod 19:17, “And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God” (MT), the Palestinian Targum reads “to meet theWord of God.” Targum Jonathan (containing the former and latter prophets, Joshua to 2 Kings plus the prophets and Daniel) uses this expression some 320 times. Some say this is not significant because Memra does not refer to a being distinct from God. It is just a way of referring to God himself. But this is the point: people familiar with the Targums were familiar with “Memra” as a designation for God. John does not use the term the way the Targums do, but to those familiar with the Targums it must have aroused these associations, which John would be in agreement with.30 In summary: William Temple states that the lovgo" “alike for Jew and Gentile represents the ruling fact of the universe, and represents that fact as the self-expression of God. The Jew will remember that ‘by the Word of the Lord the heavens were made’; the Greek will think of the rational principle of which all natural laws are particular expressions. Both will agree that this Logos is the starting-point of all things.”31 John was using a term which, with various shades of meaning, was in common use everywhere. He could count on all men catching his essential meaning. But for John, the Word was not a principle, but a living Being, the source of life; not a personification, but a Person, and that Person divine. Note: John never uses the absolute, specific, unrelated term lovgo" outside of the prologue. Elsewhere it is always modified or clarified, and does not occur in the Gospel again in the sense of the lovgo". Why not? Probably because in the Prologue we are looking at pre-existence. 1:14 becomes the point of transition: the Word is now Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore, he is called Jesus from this point on, no longer oJ lovgo". Jesus and the lovgo" are an identity; the lovgo" is the pre-existent Christ. Strictly speaking, I would prefer not to say that John has ‘personified’ the lovgo" because this implies that he borrowed the term from philosophical circles like the Stoics. Perhaps if we could ask John, he would prefer to say the philosophers had (in a sense) ‘de-personalized’ the lovgo" into a rational principle, although he really was a person (the pre-incarnate Christ) all along. That is to say, what the philosophers had grasped about the lovgo" had some elements of truth, but these were only dim and distant reflections of the pre-incarnate Christ himself. There really was a rational principle behind the universe, but until the coming of this lovgo" as Jesus of Nazareth (1:14) there was no way to know anything about him (1:18) except by natural revelation with all its limitations.

I have heard rumbling about the Brit Hume thing. . . I have been so turned off to TV news. . . . I rarely watch. . . and NEVER Fox news. I know there is some flap. I do think Pantheism brings up a lot of interesting questions. It doesn't really deal with origin too much. Things like justice and balance become very subjective. Polytheism is more a metaphor when broken down in a pantheistic faith. It would actually be contradictory. It suffers from several logical contradictions. Tiger Woods broke a vow. . . . more than once apparently. . . . but, I don't know what his faith or lack of faith really has to do with it. . . . I don't even know what religion he follows. Did he use a faith to justify his actions or did Brit Hume impose that on him? I am not sure how cheating on his wife will balance out. . . . or any justice that will cosmically find him other than direct consequences within his marriage. Look at VP. . . he escaped this life relatively unscathed. Where was his cosmic justice? Many people die of cancer. . . . people who never hurt a fly. That is a contradiction. . . . Stalin another one. . . but, notice the concept of justice is present. That would mean justice is fickle and doesn't apply equally within the cosmos balancing. Hard to put faith into such a system. What I find interesting is that we are always left to deal with the idea of justice. It is inescapable. We build it into our societal systems. The nature of good and evil. At some point we might ask ourselves about the origin of this notion of justice. Pantheism doesn't really address those questions. It does not really define them. It is problematic.

Garth, You do make me chuckle. My "moniker"? It is simply an extension of something I was doing when I originally registered here. I was selling collectible china on the internet. . . . it is called "Geisha Girl" china. Here is an example of what it looks like. http://www.mygrannys...porcelain_.html not my site, just a good picture for you. Pretty isn't it? I always have loved it, My grandmother had a full tea set, and she and I would pull it out and have tea. It is just one of those things that I associate with happy memories. When I signed up here. . . . I was dumbfounded looking for a name. . . . I looked around. . . saw the china and voila' a name. The 779 is because I usually pick a common name when needing a handle on a site. . . . like you tube or an email account. Not realizing there wouldn't be a bunch of other "geisha's" on here. . . . I tacked on a random number. Nothing deeper than vintage china. What I find interesting is your language. You walked away from what you call faith based arguments. You don't speak of walking away from a relationship. It appears you still do not make the correlation between being in a relationship with someone and explaining that relationship in terms of knowing them. Now, my faith is not in the scriptures themselves, but in God. In who He is. I have no issues with what appear to you to be discrepancies in scripture. . . . . it is because I look at them in light of who God is. . . . who He clearly defines Himself as, holy, just, merciful, loving, and good. Also what my experience with Him in a relationship is. . . . you may question that relationship. . . . . you may not have that relationship. . . . . you may not understand that relationship. . . . . but, claiming some former kinship to it while seeking to invalidate it based on your experience is kind of funny. Because of your belief system. . . and you do have one. . . . a worldview. . . . you claim there is no consequence for your decisions. I disagree. I will not bore you with the details. . . . it is really not my life or choice. You appear to stand by yours while making judgment on mine. . . . I could do the same. . . but, I won't. As you say. . .. . you know scripture. While we were in TWI we transferred obedience belonging to God right onto the backs of men. Most of us went into TWI with an eye on a relationship with God. We got tricked. However, as I explained. . . . Israel willingly and gladly (their word) entered into a relationship with God. . . . one of obedience. They asked for it to be so. . . . You may see it as similar, but it is not the same thing. Again. . . . being in relationship with God, NOT men. . . . willingly accepting the terms is not akin to blindly following men. It is following God on His terms. The children of Israel heard the voice of God. . . . literally. . . . God fed them everyday. They knew Him. I can't really make it clearer. When someone enters into a marriage. . . they do not spend the rest of their lives worshiping the vows or polishing the rings do they? Questioning things clearly defined before they chose? They do not enter blindly. (In most cultures) But, for purposes of analogy. . . it is a free-will choice. You don't enter into a relationship with the aim of changing the other person. . . . you want that person. There are certain parameters we accept when we marry, things like fidelity. We exclude ourselves willingly from other relationships of the same nature. . . . if people do stray there is usually serious consequences within that relationship. They have broken a vow. . . their word. . . and violated trust placed in them. I question God all the time. He invites me to come and reason with Him. More than once I have carefully laid out my case before God , and dang. . . . if miraculous things didn't happen and it wasn't so. . . . . . sometimes very specific and unmistakable things. But, why would the children of Israel question the things they understood and had already accepted for a specific purpose? There is more to the point of the mosaic law. . . . . but those are things you question. . . . not them. They got it. You can bring up plenty of examples in the law. . . . but things being carried out specifically are less frequent. That is because God is merciful and would keep warning and warning, sending prophet's and calling them back. It is such a great study in relationship. He called them as a nation. . . . we are called as individuals. So, while you may pass judgment on me based on my relationship. . . . . it seems far fetched that you relate to me in light of it. . . . . but, rather from your position from outside of it. In turn, I doubt you ever entered into a covenant with God, giving Him your word to obey and follow Him. . . . . . . . only to unfaithfully walk away. That would seriously bring into question your morals and ethics. . . . those things you use to make value judgments on me.

Garth, I am happy to have you discuss these things.. . . my point was they are not offered to offend you. People in the OT used to complain to God that He was too merciful. . . too lenient. I can't imagine you are proposing the same thing? It all swivels on an understanding of a holy God. Once the people left Egypt and entered the wilderness. . . . about 2 1/2 million people they had a society. Moses went to meet with God and God told Him this is how you are to do it. The people agreed. They accepted the terms. They said yes. They were going to show God that they would listen to Him and obey Him because He had just delivered them. Remember, God did not give them the law in Egypt and tell them measure up and then I will save you. He saved them and they responded in gratitude and promised obedience. They understood about judgment, punishment, destruction, and exclusion. They had just seen what had happened to Egypt. Is it possible that the bible is dealing with a world of corruptness and ambiguity. . . much like we live in today? It is an assumption that God always approves of what happens in history. The people gave God their word they would keep His rules.(We will gladly do it) A persons word is their bond. What happens when you don't keep your word and you willfully break a rule? There is usually some kind of consequence. Israel was a very morally degraded society. God took the least esteemed group of people to take Him to the rest of the nations. . . .He always does. . . . Israel had a specific relationship with God. The scriptures are clear about freely entering into a relationship with God. Jesus said count the cost. . . . make sure it is what you want. You do not enter into a covenant with God lightly. It is something sacred. God is holy. And you are assuming these are arbitrary laws and applying your moral and ethical standards on a completely different society. One with a specific purpose. Israel was to live DIFFERENTLY than other nations, by even the most mundane tasks being mandated they learned obedience. Sacrifices, rituals, diet, clothing, cooking were all carefully ordered by God to teach that Israel was to live differently from EVERYONE else. It was also an external display of separation from sin within their hearts. They were to be holy as God is holy and their outward ceremonial behavior. . . . it was an external expression of heart holiness. If you consider that God was really training a people to live in His presence. . . it doesn't seem so strange. The people He was training were fairly difficult people, but they agreed to the rules. . . . they understood why they had them. He told them repeatedly that to remain in the land required obedience to the Mosaic law. They knew it. They chose it. I do the same thing. . . . I have entered into a relationship with a Holy God by my freewill choice I have chosen to obey Him. What happens when I get too far out of the parameters? I am corrected. The NT speaks of a sin unto death for believers. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. There are warnings all over the place about sinning against God. God is holy. Do you make these kind of judgments on all laws or just the ones God gave to a specific chosen people at a specific time . . . for a specific purpose. Laws have always varied from time and society. We still have some blue laws here where I live. The Mosaic law was just until the Messiah came. And remember the trouble Jesus got into when He healed on the Sabbath? The whole point of Him coming was to be the end of this law . . . . He was who they were waiting for. . .the fulfillment of the law they had freely accepted to enter into a covenant with God as His people. Strangely, they decided they wanted to keep the law and rejected Jesus. As much as people complain about law they choose it over a free gift. . . over freedom. Because I do believe God chose Israel for a purpose and I do believe in the Messiah and a Holy God. . . . I understand things differently than you. You seem to have no problem making moral judgments on my beliefs. . . . the standard you use is your understanding. . . . . somehow you manage to think this is righteous. . . no?

I always wondered why Aaron made it. It says Aaron's sons were zapped, but Aaron melted the earrings! Maybe it was worse for Aaron to survive? Imagine trying to live with that? I don't know. . . . it says Aaron was chosen too .. . . . as Moses' mouthpiece. . . . maybe God had a purpose for him. It does seem kind of Random. If I was God, I would have made Aaron the example.

The more abundant life baby!! Works for sinner and sinner alike! 10-15% of people's income weekly may not be what it used to be . . .. but, hey, we all make sacrifices . . . . maybe they are flying economy.