geisha779

I imagine it was more God's way of handing them off and planning a do-over. They were down there melting gold, having a party and wondering about that guy Moses. "What ever happened to Moses? You remember, the guy who lead us out of Egypt?" "Went up that hill and we haven't seen him since". . . . "Just great ... what do we do now?!?" Aaron had a real winner of an idea. . . ."I know, let's do the FIRST things on that list he told us NOT to do... . . . . . Let's make a God and then melt earrings and make a cow as an idol and worship THAT. . . then we can have a party!" "A cow. . . or a God who parts the Red Sea. . . . it is all the same" They went with the cow. God was miffed. . . . He was going to wipe them off the planet and start over with just Moses. . . .

Paul was an Apostle. He was recognized as an Apostle. He is called "The Apostle Paul". An Apostle was someone who, in this case, was sent forth by the Lord as a messenger. His Epistles are suppose to contain the message he was sent to deliver. New light. It was not an unknown concept to the church. The Apostles helped establish the church. That was their purpose and life. If you don't believe that Jesus would send forth messengers . . . or believe the resurrected Jesus would appear to someone. . . . or that God would use flawed men, word of mouth, and imperfect language as some of the ways He communicates himself to us. . . . . .there is no point in believing any of it. God used a Palestinian Jew in a particular culture. . . at a particular time. . . . . and in an unexpected rather ghoulish manner. . . . to redeem mankind. To declare Himself to us. . . . Jesus came to declare God. . . . They were expecting Him to kick the Roman butt. Maybe God is not always what we would like to believe about Him. Most didn't believe on Him. . . and they SAW Him. They SAW the miracles. His own brother didn't believe Him and he was there. It was not until James saw the resurrected Christ that he believed. You should include James with Paul. He has a conversion story too. James was always with the Pharisees. . . .He was so pious that they called him old camel knees. . . . because he would spend so much time in the temple praying for Israel. Meanwhile, his own brother is the Messiah. James, along with the others. . .died a violent death. . . for their faith. Most believe, the only one who did not die a martyrs death was John. Could be, a part of that, was a way for God to establish their credibility. Their deaths might mean something. Have significance. These guys, for the most part, were devout Jews. . . . Paul went to the gentiles. . . huge deal. . . . while James, Peter, and John went to the Jews. Putting it mildly, not common, or popular to take it straight to the gentiles. Many of us believed VP was an Apostle. We got tricked. VP had to counterfeit something in order to be so good at what he pulled off. . . . something already established. I believe he counterfeited something genuine, not counterfeited something counterfeit. The church is established. . . . it is built on the Apostles and Prophets.. . Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone. This is the way it happened. Jesus said His church would be built. .. .. . .who was going to do this? Those who didn't believe on Him? Paul called himself, one born out of due time, chief among sinners, and God had to smack him down and blind him just to get him to listen. He was the biggest enemy of the church at the time. Something happened? We have a church today. Built on the Apostles and prophets. It has made it 2000 years so far. The epistles are addressed to the church. . . not to someone not in the church. I don't know if they actually do apply to you. They were written at a specific time, to specific people, about how the church should be. . . . that would still apply to the church today. Cultural norms change.. . . . hair length and head covering for example. . . . yet, the demeanor behind the CUSTOM doesn't change. We can change the cultural expression without changing the meaning. A past particularity does not obstruct the significance. Why should the revelation or new light that was so significant to the early church, now be used in argument against it and its trustworthiness by a later people? Because our knowledge of the establishment of a church is so superior to those called to establish it?

The irony of you actually quoting this verse is not lost on me. If it wasn't so tragic and true. . . . . it would almost be funny. Let us all be zealous for John as he has the "truth". And as we know. . . the rest of Christianity. . . . well, they are, of course, just hapless. Don't worry though. . . . John is getting a motor coach . . . . RV.

Some of the accounts in the OT make me laugh. You have God in Exodus 20 telling Moses I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Seems God is taking credit here. . . . almost like He wasn't dependent on Moses raising the staff or something. Then in 32 The LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. But then Moses comes back with No, No, No . . . YOUR PEOPLE... YOU DID IT! "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? I know there is more to it, that in responding Moses is acknowledging God as the one who did(the exodus). . . . in pleading for Israel he is acknowledging they are God's people to do as He wills. Like Moses has any authority here other than appeal to God. Probably not meant to be funny. . . . but, it still makes me laugh. . . mine, no yours, no, really, they are yours. . . fine, we will just kill them and start all over.

That is really interesting that you mention community and how things can be diverse and unified at the same time. *There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. *There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. *There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Three unique things here, Spirit, Lord, God. . . . all working in community with each other, dependent and intertwined . Maybe there is a hint in there about how we as the Body should be operating.. . . . . to me, it is all found within this community of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. . . . . really. The idea of being one with, equal to, but being in willing subjection to. . . .really beautiful when you start considering it. How can we be ONE body with many parts. . . . creating a whole single entity? Where does that come from? But, look at TWI's teaching about the Holy Spirit, which I believe is actually blasphemous. We took what is fairly obvious now. . . . the premise that it is as the Spirit wills and turned it around to mean as WE will. Doesn't really jive with the rest of scripture. There is something going on within the community of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit which I believe is enlightening as to how we as a single body with many members and one head should operate for the glory of God. As God wills. 1 Peter says it so clearly. . . . As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: The Holy Spirit. . . . joining us. . . . working as He wills. . . . giving diverse gifts to different people for the edifying of the church, which works in community to glorify Christ . . . . who glorifies God. The question never would have come up, if the Corinthians were not coveting and lusting after the gifts instead of seeking their purpose and source. Really ironic given TWI's teaching of all nine all the time. . .. And now that I think about it. . . . . TWI taught we had God in Christ in us the hope of glory along with the break away piece of little hs all separate and all dwelling in us. . . . pretty crowded in there when you factor in all the devils spirits that used to possess us. One God.

That is one thing I always have regretted. . . . a TWI minister sanctioned wedding. I keep telling hubby we should check. . . . if we are legal! I still want to go to Vegas and redo it. . . . . Elvis impersonator, drive through Chapel. . . . I would have more confidence in that ceremony!

Hi Rosestoyou, Since the "Roy" thing has been covered I won't add to that. . . . except to say "listening with a purpose" was sage advice. . . . and to mention that I have yet to see Roy answer a "railing" with anything but kindness and love. . . no matter what comes at him. That type of goodness is rare, and reserved, I believe, for those who are the very special and wonderful . . .among us. I did have a couple of questions about your original post though. There are things some people post on here that confuse me to no end. . . . . genuinely confound me. You say STF is no longer a ministry of God, but, that statement assumes that at one point in time "God"actually had something to do with it. From my vantage point it is simply an offshoot or break-away from a larger Godless, bloodsucking, and people abusing endeavor. Albeit, populated with some good people who were tricked. Do you believe TWI was genuinely a "Godly" ministry? STF, despite talk to the contrary, and in my opinion, never corrected the huge doctrinal errors of VP's cult and simply wandered deeper into that abyss. Where else was there to go? Isn't it just odd to sink that low. . . . while still paying homage to their "Father in the word". Ironic that he was the one who lead them so astray in the first place?. . . . And all because of his lust and the need to justify it publicly and in a such grand manner? So, this "God's word" that JAL should go spread. . . . what is that again? Is that the same doctrinal error, which lead to the Godless or "devil" inspired practice of an offshoot from a larger Godless cult? What is it JAL should go out and spread.? JCNG, Soul sleep, TWI's energy force field, manifesting at our beck and call "Big H Little h" "IT" of a Holy Spirit? Maybe the tithe? Selling out "body, soul, and spirit" to some guy who calls himself a minister. The ineffectual and clueless God they now espouse? Or is it "breath life" and abortion that constitutes God's word these days?

I have been known to do snarky at times. . . . . . . . and you are exc-uuuuuused. :)

Okay, now this is something I can relate to . . . . for a ministry that yakked about context. . . . they really missed the boat on this one.

The way I see it....if one TRULY believed that. . . ."OOPS" and a big laugh would hardly seem an appropriate response from someone commanded to love their neighbor as themselves. Even scripture says God takes no pleasure. . . . . but, then again, if that is true . . . and He is the one who decides who is who. . . . well, like I said, "I don't really think it will be exactly like any of us believe." ______________________________ Hey RR. . . . GO PATS Errr . . . I means SAINTS. . . . congratulations to LA!!

You don't want to play? :o I think we are all in for a rude "awakening" in some way or another. I don't really think it will be exactly like any of us believe.

Could you explain who and what you are referring to?

Trust and Obey, I enjoyed your posts. . . thanks for sharing.

What ever works for you!

Thanks! :)

And when bad things happen. . . .and they always do . . . because we live in a fallen world with sin, as WordWolf so aptly points out. When they do. . . . have some FAITH in God. . . .in His sovereign will and His ability to not only give wisdom, deliver, and heal, but, in His ability to grow endurance in us as those He loves. It is all a part of the Cristian life. God always offers help, but His will and higher ways. . . . may not always conform with what we think it should be. . . . that is when our FAITH in Him is really tested. That is when He is glorified as God. Think about it. While Paul, Peter, and Silas were released from prison. . . . James was martyred around the same time. He understood suffering. . . .

Just curious, what makes you think the sovereign God of all the creation, including Satan. . . . the God who is the creator of the heavens and earth . . . is dependent on your "believing" for His ability to deliver? That is actually the antithesis of faith in God.

Basically what Sunesis and doojable said. . . . In another thread, discussion was about the miracles in the gospel accounts. That they can't be replicated. They defy reason. Miracles are a sign from God to point to something. They are for that specific time and a specific place . . . in the gospels it was for Jesus ministry. So we would know He was who He said He was, and who sent Him. There were plenty of so-called Messiahs. If you look at the miracles of Jesus they all lead up to the GREATEST miracle. . . . the resurrection. For the Apostles . . . they were to establish and authenticate the church. They were not the only people trying to start a church. Lots of letters . . . lots of visions. . . . lots of theology. I think. . . and just my rambling here. . . we have to be careful what we seek after. . . . many of us paid money to learn to operate what we were told were the manifestations of the power of the HS. We took a class and it wasn't free. We PAID for this supposed knowledge. There actually was someone who tried to buy the power of the HS. He became the father of Simony. Simon Magus. There is a fair amount written about him. It is said he did manifest power. He had a following. Denied the Lord similar to how we did in TWI. He was quite the cult leader. As an aside, it is recorded that he died trying to fly. VP taught that Simon became a Christian. NO NO NO!!!! The church, Peter especially, were opposed to Simon. Similar to how the church opposes TWI. It was not one big happy family. You have to wonder about VP teaching that Simon was saved. IMO that runs deep. There were many people like him(Simon) but he is included in Acts chapter 8, which shows us the difference between one who says they believe and one who truly does. We just want to be sure, given what we were tricked into with TWI . .. we are still not dwelling there? I'm careful in what I ask for. . . . I too am content with the Lord, what He asks of me, and what He supplies me with when I do as He asks. It is enough. That doesn't mean miracles don't happen ( 2004 Red Sox!!). . . . . . . but really, they are always for God's glory. Just my thoughts.

For me, I don't like some of the imagery J Edwards uses, but that is a powerful and awesome sermon. Many people came to the cross by way his sermons. . . . they repented and knew the need for the Savior. There are times when I believe God should scare the heck out of people. Jonathan Edwards is often recognized as America's greatest scholar. He was a dynamic preacher. . . . . and hate seems a mighty strong word for that sermon. He got kicked out of his own church for not letting non Christians take communion, it is not a feast, but a memorial. There is a great deal to be gleaned from reading the Puritans IMO. Kind of like reading the OT though :) I also like and can see that our lives really are hid in Christ. Off topic and just my opinion

Brattleboro . . . I love it! I am there once a week at least, and yes, the nudists are out there on the street(In summer)!! Indescribable town. But, no, it was Bennington, something to do with ski revenue.

And . . . Bennington is STILL trying to get out . . . of Vermont. They want to become a part of New Hampshire. They are getting really serious about it. Bennington, New Hampshire just doesn't sound right.

Bingo! I would go even further and say that this verse relates to a very specific promise God made in 2 Samuel 7. Not to get all doctrinal either, but not all Psalms can be related back to something specific, but this one can. David's line would carry the seed. It was a greater revelation by God than all that had come before That is why it is exalted. In TWI it was taken out of context and used to manipulate. We basically built a theology around it. I think bible idolatry is a pretty apt description. As Sunesis pointed out. . . . the Holy Spirit enlightens one to the truth of Jesus Christ as Messiah . . . some people don't have whole bibles or share one tattered book between several churches. These people understand more about Christ than many Christians with a whole library. Certainly more than we did with the absent Christ.

Not to mention how we totally subjugated the whole point of the scriptures, Jesus, while vaunting the scriptures themselves. That takes some serious maneuvering and talent. No wonder there was so much "research" going on . . . it takes awhile to get the Christ out of Christianity.

From what I read . . . I think he may be or has been part of STF as well. There was some Truth or Tradition verbiage scattered about. One option was "fellowships" so, maybe they are part of a larger group. I found it because I was looking up Bishop Pillai . . . .most things that come up concerning him are TWI related in some way. This site came up in the search. Bishop KC Pillai/The Brown Bible One thing I noticed is they are very vague concerning things like WHO ordained him into WHAT denomination . . . and where this" theological training" came from. Although, the donate button was prominent. . . . and with scripture attached.