geisha779

Wow, not worth millions? Who knew? And here I thought, the entire decade of the 1960's was the devil's plot to prevent this class from being filmed and distributed. What? No one else gets that?

We heard this YESterday, volume cranked. . . .windows down . . .so what if I drive a mini-van. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53G-GHheeEM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53G-GHheeEM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53G-GHheeEM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Luke 18: 18 A ruler asked Him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—God. 20 You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; honor your father and mother. " 21 "I have kept all these from my youth," he said.22 When Jesus heard this, He told him, "You still lack one thing: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."23 After he heard this, he became extremely sad, because he was very rich. So, this rich man comes to Jesus to ask about eternal life, he came to the right place, he knew who to ask. . . . and Jesus tells Him straight up. . . no one is good but one . . God. Fairly emphatic and as plain as can be, He even said "why are you calling me good?" Then, out of all the things Jesus could say to answer the man. . . He gives Him the law. The guy answered "Yep. . . . I did all that". Well, what is wrong with this picture? The law can't save anyone and Jesus said there is no one good, but God. The same Jesus who said. . . . A good man brings forth good things. The rich man revealed something about his heart. He had done what was good. He said he kept the law, he thought that was enough. He should have answered, nothing I can do is good enough. Jesus told him right up front, "You are no good". So, does Jesus say . . . . you are so good, you don't have to do anything else? No . . . He told him . . . . go sell everything you have. . . . and come follow me. . .well, the guy was rich so that was basically a non-starter. It was a lot to lose. _______________________ When they asked Jesus, what shall we do that we might work the works of God?, He said. . . . This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent. Ezekiel and Jeremiah both speak of God creating a new heart in us . . . not patching the old one up. . . . or training it. . .or teaching it, or even sending it a remote signal boost. . . . but, God giving a brand new one. Both Jesus and Paul quote this . Something else to consider in light of that section of Jeremiah and the heart is Roman's 7. The defective nature of our hearts. The laws inability to correct it? The New Covenant. Maybe that was the point of the verse you are looking at? Just a thought? I love what you said about habitual bad behavior or even wrong understanding being so ingrained in the heart. If you tell a false teacher or a mislead follower that they are wrong or false. . .. they will be shocked you could even think that. Offended! They believe they make a like profession of faith. Maybe the reality is. . . . it is something completely twisted. . . . and the behavior a result of misplaced faith. Their hearts are deceived. Just like our hearts were deceived.

Have you thought about looking at Deuteronomy 29: 18, 19 . . . . and Deuteronomy 30:17 for the background of the verse?

Steve, When it says "above all things" . . . . what do you think that means? Above all things? What things? . . . . A turtles heart? A trees heart? What else is there to contrast with the human heart? Is it so deceitful. .. . . nothing compares to it? Just curious.

I am not sure there is some deep meaning to heart here is there? You can spend time searching usages of the word heart I guess, but since we all have one. . . . figuratively and physically, I wonder if it will give us greater understanding? Especially if it is deceptive above all things!! Things in the scriptures relate to being human. When Ezekiel juxtaposes a heart of stone with a heart of flesh . . . . we know what that means. The heart is deceitful above all things. Do we deceive ourselves, do we deceive others? Are we deceiving ourselves when we think we are being true to who we are? Where does that usually lead us? Right into apostasy. Because. . . .scripture lays out a reality . . .our own reality changes with the seasons . . . . with our culture and with our heart. God doesn't change. The reality of God never changes. We can never deceive God though. We can lie to Him, make promises in His name and not keep them (big no no BTW) but, God isn't fooled. . . . when we do this, we fool ourselves. Where does this deception issue from? We all know where it comes from . . . . but, sometimes with scripture, explaining things transcend language. Where is the figurative heart located . . . . I don't have a clue. I cannot draw you a diagram, yet, I know what scripture means when it speaks of the figurative human heart. . . . I am human. _________________________________________________________________________________ My opinion. . . . . a good verse to keep in mind when considering anything we think we may know from TWI . . . . or the gold we think we may have escaped with is 2 Timothy 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. As for exegesis. . . . milk, meat and maturity. . ..we can all read a text book . . . .I really don't think we need to write one to make a point or read out from scripture .. ..it relates to being human in relationship to God and it speaks to us on that level. If we are not learning in that relationship. . . . and sharing in that capacity . . . that knowledge we try to glean is simply going to take us in circles or where our particular heart thinks God should be. We can even get caught up in one man's peculiar sin and rationalization. . . . it can sound great to our ears. Jesus used to walk around and point to things. . .flowers, birds. . .. seeds. . . . he spoke of people . . . and not just random people, but people that were familiar. . . . like tax collectors or dishonest stewards. They may have been real people everyone was aware of. . . . I sometimes think this is the case. He was a wisdom teacher. . . . . and He said The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." When the Apostles taught. . . they spoke in relation to Jesus.. . . . who is our way of relating to God. They spoke authoritatively . . . . Jesus spoke in finality. . . and I really don't think there is any way to go beyond that. I think the best bible teachers are the ones who simply speak from the security of relationship with the Lord and are comfortable with their knowledge of scriptures. That is good exegesis. Not that Greek or scholarship doesn't have its place. . . . it does, I have great respect for certain bible scholars. But, that in itself cannot give us the knowledge and understanding we seek. The best book I ever read was A. W. Tozer Knowledge of the Holy. Stunning book. He once said "The man or woman who is wholly or joyously surrendered to Christ can't make a wrong choice/any choice will be the right one." Just my thoughts.

Yeah and really, when you think about it . . . what is the big deal with Fred Phelps too? I mean sure he is a bigot, but he probably plays nice with his grand kids . . . right? He teaches people to hate, but maybe he cries sometimes too. So what if someone gets up before a group of people conditioned to obey every suggestion as an order. . . . and tells them he fondled his very young daughter. . . . I mean is he REALLY culpable if any of them go home and try it themselves?. . . . Maybe it was okay with the Mrs. And what is consensual anyway? I think we can stretch that definition to encompass an older authority figure and an abused young women who is particularly vulnerable to suggestion. Or kool-aid. It is just sex . . . not like it could scar a person for life or anything . . . right? I need a shower now.

The man was pure genius. . . . he warned us about religion. . . . However, it is what he pointed to and called religion that I take issue with. . . . because . . .that would be . . . just about every Christian on the planet. ...with the exception of those whose work he "borrowed" and forgot to credit. . . . his take on "religion" cast a pretty wide net. We liked that remember? Made us feel really special . . . .We could even wash our feet in the blood! Hey, who doesn't want to be better than everyone else on the planet? After all, we had the "knowledge". What better way to be special than point fingers at the people who were actually doing the heavy lifting . . .VP was brilliant. . . he even found a way to cut out the loony Fred Phelps types. . . . and went straight at Mother Theresa. Yep. . . pure genius. Sorry Dr WW. . . . I just don't have the patience for it anymore.

Actually no Dr. W I was not thinking of that church. Coming from TWI it should come as no surprise that people twist the scriptures for gain and hate. As sensational as your post is. . . . it is somewhat redundant given where we are posting. For every sensational thing you find about people who use faith for pain, profit, or gain. . . I can post a story of extraordinary self-sacrifice. Is that what you want? I can also dig up extraordinarily perverse acts committed by homosexuals. . . . but, I would rather speak of the people whom I love, who are extremely kind and good. . . and happen to be homosexual. My niece just came out BTW. If somehow you feel vindicated in your belief in zero by holding up examples of hurtful people. . . . please have at it. But note, I refrained from posting on your thread about zero. . . although I found it to be one of the most ridiculous conversations I have ever been privy to. . . . . I felt no need to point out the silly nature of your personal eisegesis . . . and was happy to let your conversation flow without comment. As for defending the faith. . . .what do you all think was going on in the first century with Paul and the Apostles? This has really now become a joke. Are people's ego's really so fragile that they cannot bear to hear of good in the church. . . . and must rationalize their own faith by the disdain for that which is good, while camouflaging it with extreme examples of hate? With sarcasm?. . . . Why is that so familiar to me? I appreciate your efforts Steve, and your struggle to find sound doctrine. . . .I promise you . . . . it is out there. Oops forgot Dr W . . . the Assemblies of God church I mentioned. . . . is the one in the next town over that runs a radio station. My son broadcasts from there. . . . and did I mention he advocates for gay rights from that basement. That station is run in cooperation of all the local churches.

To ADD ADD. . . . ministries like VOM Voice of the Martyrs . . . . exist to serve the persecuted church. . . . its founder, Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, himself was imprisoned 14 years in Romania for his faith in Christ. His suffering was the catalyst for that faithful ministry. They serve Christians of all denominations . . . . Ravi Zacharias Ministries and his Apologetics center at Oxford serve to train people in defense of the Christian faith . . . . he came to his faith from the brink of suicide and has spent his time since. . . . serving the church in an area of his personal strength. . . a defense of the gospel. NT Wright . . . . considered the world's leading bible scholar. .. or one of . . . .an Anglican Bishop . . . goes around speaking and teaching. . . . sharing his years of study. Someone like William Lane Craig does the same . . . . debates on behalf of the church and for the furthering of the gospel. DL Moody. . . . uneducated and poor. . . . started a charity school based on faith. . . .a great evangelist. . . . who reached thousands Billy Graham . . . . same thing. . . . The Bible League has people who put their lives in danger delivering bibles to persecuted Christians. . . . in very dangerous places. Not to mention all the martyrs who still are tortured and die for their faith. I CAN point to leaders in the church . . . . they are always the greatest servants. The list is VERY long. I don't follow them anywhere, but try to follow their example and support their good works in prayer! Okay Steve, I am done . . . . sorry for the derail. . . . back to VP and his exegesis, eisegesis, and what he practiced. :)

And to add. . . and just so I am clear. . . I believe the little Baptist church on the corner, the one which maybe runs a soup kitchen . . . . is part of the church Jesus Christ said He would build. . . . . . same goes for the Methodist church which might be a bit larger and maybe supports missionaries. . . . the little Assemblies of God congregation that runs a Christian radio station out of their basement. . . . part of the world wide church. . . . the Anglican church that someone like NT Wright is a Bishop in.. . . . part of the church. . . . . the Pentecostal church down the street that is hopping on Sunday morning belongs too. . . . the Lutheran Church which has spillover parking at a Dennys whether it be Missouri Synod or not . . in the church . . . . . I have knelt comfortably in Catholic churches and prayed. . . . . and on it goes. Christian churches. Their focus might be different, their worship may be conducted in a different manner. . . . they may disagree about sprinkling vs dunking . . . . or even larger doctrinal issues. . . but, if they are born-again Christians . . when they kneel to pray . . . they are praying to God. Not with a perfect knowledge. . . . but as Christians. . . . in relationship to Jesus Christ. . . . the same God. That is the church. I don't believe people simply go to church for Calvin or Luther. . . . but they go to church to fellowship, be fed and worship together . . . to congregate as a body of believers. . . . sharing the same core doctrines and beliefs about Jesus Christ. I do believe Jesus is involved. I do believe that is His church. Perfect. . . no . . . changing and correcting at times. . . yes. . . . messy at times . . . yes(Hey, look at Corinth, God's beloved) . . . . . . made up of Christians . . . yes. The churches with all their imperfections are still held to accountability before God . . . . . at least warned so in Revelation. Just my opinion.

Robert, I am not angry with you . . . I simply don't agree with you. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see the effects of VP's sins even now. . . . . all these years later. I could go for it . . . but, for some here, it is a rather personal discussion. Do you realize the amount of aborted pregnancies, coerced sex, and spousal abuse that resulted from that man's doctrine? From his teaching? The life long burdens people carry? Some people carry them because they have never had a personal relationship with their savior or an intimate knowledge of the cross. . . . of forgiveness. The cross, symbol or real was an enemy . . . . what it represents. . . . twisted. . . . we actually tore one down from the chapel at Emporia! The cross was mocked. Pretty stunning feats for a so-called Christian organization. Not knowing the Savior and mocking the cross. VP's character is truly relevant and sadly, it often takes an up close and personal view of an idol . . . to begin to be delivered from the lies and destructive heresy that man introduced. Sometimes that is all it takes. People died in TWI. People took their own lives. But, this this what offends you? Vp's sins are being mentioned? His sins are so far reaching, some people will go to their graves never again seeking a relationship with the God of scripture. . . . or so confused they will never again trust a minister. That offends me. This website is to tell the other side of the story. There is a very ugly side to the story. BTW, I simply posted to Steve my opinion. Complete with comic relief so as to soften any question or disagreement? You sought to enlighten on the history of the Pharisees and their legitimacy . I simply defended my point. I made my initial point that at least the Pharises had some legitimacy. . . . VP didn't. He left something legitimate and empowered himself with authority . . . unless one still believes the snow job. My point was in response to Steve's initial post about VP preaching one thing and practicing another. It reminded me of Matthew 23:3. . . I then started running through all the similarities between a false teacher described in the epistles and the Pharisees . . . . my mind then jumped to the legitimacy issue. . . . so, I posted it. I never held the Pharisees up as a model for the church. My point was that VP wasn't even a Pharisee. . . . not exactly a compliment. Following that, I simply defended what l wrote. Again for the cheap seats. . . . I believe VP came out from among the church. . . was never one of them . . . . preyed on people . . . often weak people and people who were not being pastored properly or at all.. . . and drew them away. Drew them away from what? The Christian church. . . . He left the confines of accountability and exchanged the truth he knew about God . . . for a lie. And we both know what I am talking about. He left his church. . . (and denomination is not a dirty word). . . . he struck out on his own. . . and built a little kingdom where he could justify indulging the sexual sins he was held accountable for in a church. . . . a place with overseers and elders. You took my post so personally. You seem to take a discussion of VP's character personally. I think it is very relevant to his doctrine. . . . to his credibility as a minister, and teacher of the scriptures. . . . now, where do you think that comes from? As for his judgment? Nothing, absolutely nothing I could say is more terrifying than what the scriptures say about false teachers. . . their acts, lies, and end. I simply believe it. I also think it is worth a nod when one is considering his exegesis. The church has structure, yes, absolutely, thank God. . . . He designed it that way. . . . but, it is made up of people. People who love the Lord, and serve Him. There is accountability. People are entrusted by God to pastors who protect them, teachers who teach them, and ministers who minister to them. Why belittle it with generalizations and sweeping judgment? You bought the tee-shirt? What does that even mean? You bought the cult tee-shirt too. . . . doesn't mean they are one size fits all. Why would I make a statement about standing on the outside, not sharing a common faith, and making pronouncements? I was in TWI. . . we sang songs mocking them. We separated from them and maligned their faith. Where else do you think that comes from? We tore down crosses, we called steeples phallic symbols. . . . were arrogant toward churches and we spit in the face of God's people. We didn't come to that alone. . . . we were lead there. I truly believe WE were the ones lead astray. . . . not the other way around. Our exegesis, esegesis, and practice, didn't save us from being ensnared. My opinion. . . . I am sticking with it. I didn't come by it easily.

Well Robert, I don't mean to be hostile, but I spent many years from outside the church and I am defensive. . . . but, only when someone makes a statement which puts me on the defensive. Denominations are often splits due to reform, correction, or matters of focus. That doesn't make them all man made. The institution, like marriage, was designed by God. There are as many perfect churches as there are perfect marriages. This does not negate God's design or intent for church . . . neither do denominations. Look at the 1st century church in Jerusalem. . . . compared to the church at Corinth.. . . different focus all together, different needs for different areas. . . . then take a look at the churches individual judgments in Revelation. Different churches, different personalities, different shortfalls. . . . one head, one judge. Like precious faith. I should be able to go into any basic bible believing church and fellowship and fully participate in worship. I may be more comfortable one place over another . . . but, I am a unique personality. . ..as are we all. But, Christian churches all share the same basic doctrine. What was Paul's reproof to the Corinthians, which was a really gifted church . . . you are God's building, you are God's husbandry. . . . God gives the increase. Paul laid out the basic outline and structure for a church. God gives us pastors, teachers, evangelists and people who all bring their individual gifts to bear for the church. Denominations negate nothing IMO. What does is a cult . . . . an aberrant faith . . . and I cannot understand standing from without. . . . not sharing common faith . . . and making pronouncements. I believe one of the most grievous sins VP committed was his disdain for the church and yes I do believe you can point to the church. . . . he taught us to have the same disdain. . . . to have nothing to do with it . . . . to reason and explain it away. So, yes, I do get very defensive. . . . I belong to a church . . . I belong to a worldwide church. One that has a heart for the lost, and one which sees to the persecuted saints. . . to the poor. . . . to the widows. . . . to the orphans. . . . not each individual group has the same focus. . . . but yes, there is a church and we worship the same God. That is where there is some accountability, that is where there is like precious faith in the head, and that is where one is vested with authority, role with responsibility and most importantly has accountability . . . . at least in the way I read Timothy. VP left his church and from what I have read and believe it was over sexual sin. He left accountability . . . . he left his ministry. As for the Pharisees. . . . I believe Jesus, in His dealing with them, confirmed the authority of their role and duty. . . He certainly held them accountable for it, He judged them by it. Jesus was the express image of God . . . . doesn't get much plainer than that. . . . . it doesn't mean they were right . . . . but they were legit. VP wasn't. . . . and he certainly wasn't held accountable once he left the church . . . but, he is accountable to God.

The church is an earthly creation? When Jesus said "Do what they say. . . " that was not giving legitimacy to the Pharisee's role? When Paul laid out the parameters of a true minister in Timothy and juxtaposed it with characteristics of a false teacher .. . . .while instructing one on how to conduct themselves in the house of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. . . What? That means nothing? That is not laying out the foundation for legitimate ministry? Not buying it for a moment.

But, some churches do not tolerate this. . . . they say it is unacceptable behavior. . . .you either repent and change . . . . or leave. . . but, you can always set out on your own to redefine the parameters so it IS actually acceptable behavior. It is called Biblical Research. Many churches believe in accountability. . . . and actually have safeguards in place. Sometimes they fail. . . . but, no accountability with unchecked self-appointed authority can lead to what we were involved in.

I think for me Steve, I only need make the one distinction anymore. The one between the Christian church and a heretical cult. The one between a false teacher and a true minister. . . . I believe scripture gives us ample warning. Ironic, there is one thing VP said that is fairly true. . . . "You tell me what you believe about Jesus Christ. . . " However, I do understand your perspective. I can empathize with it. For me, if the mans lips were moving and he was talking about a holy God . . . he didn't have a clue. And to add. . . . when we are standing on the outside of something. . . seeking to redefine it. . . . it makes perfect sense that we would not be able to point to it.

Given your description of exegesis, a good example could actually be Monty Python's Life of Brian. These guys spent an entire summer going over the gospels, and they do not claim Christianity as their faith. They read out meanings from the gospels. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>I am not making light of your post, it is very well stated. There are points that are curious to me concerning VP's relationship to the truth and what you might still adhere to as truth. . . . but, I appreciate the distinction you are trying to draw. I make a different distinction. Jesus, when speaking to the Pharisee's said in Luke 11 52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." (Matthew 23:3) Jesus said, "So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." In Luke 10 when Jesus is being questioned by the expert in the law . . . it is understood that this man knew the law. . . it is not in question . . . yet, Jesus asked him "How do you read it?" The man read it correctly and Jesus told him so, but the man's follow up question revealed a great deal about the depth of his understanding. Jesus did enlighten him. The Pharisees had a legitimate position, with authority, Caiphas actually prophesied correctly about the Messiah. That was his role as High Priest, and God worked within that structure for something important. . . . . although they did twist it. . . . . However, when it comes to someone like VP, he did not have the authority or legitimacy of even the Pharisees. He came out from the church. . . . he left the church in disgrace and defiance. 1 John 2:19 speaks to this "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." VP was out there on his own. . . . who do we think conferred authority on VP to teach, be a minister, or preacher? He left his position as Minister. He left his ministry. God works within the structure he, himself set up. . . .Jesus said His church would be built. . . . if the scriptures are to be believed. . . . there is an order to things. When VP left his ministry, he drew people away with him. " Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." Acts 20. When it comes to people like VP. . . . the scriptures are explicit in warning. It runs deeper than merely a difference in exegesis, eisegesis, and practice IMO. . . . the scriptures tell us these men, like VP. . . . actually . . . . exchange the truth of God for a lie.

He apparently admitted openly to fondling his own daughter in an inappropriate manner. You tell me?

I was listening to the Pet Doctor the other day about shedding. . . . I go to his site and listen to old shows while doing something around the house. . . . http://warreneckstein.com/n-stations.html He said to run a damp washcloth over your cats once or twice a day to help them with fur balls. You probably know this already, but thought I would mention it. My cats assume my huge plant shelf in the kitchen is a kitty salad bar. . . . we have had to buy kitty grasses and place them strategically around the plants. . . sure enough they go for them!! Last fall I potted all my window box geraniums. They are beautiful. . . . I caught a sale and got them for 10 cents a piece. . . . I wanted to reuse them this year, but they are so leggy. They are blossoming like crazy. . . . any suggestions?

I listened to that clip from CES. When Mr. S begins his exegesis he starts out by making the same assumptions as most of the splinter groups and we in TWI did. . . . that this verse has been misunderstood and wrongly taught. I don't believe that is the case and I don't make that initial leap with him. It is not a given as is implied. God does not forsake sinners. . . . He made a way for sinners to be reconciled to Him. What happened on the cross was that way was being made. Jesus also bore for us the consequence of the sin's of the world. What is the consequence of sin? Alienation from God is a result of sin. What does Roman's 1 say 3 times? Gave them up. . . . gave them up. . . . gave them up. If, in that time, when Jesus was bearing the sins of the world He didn't also bear the consequences of those sins. . . it is incomplete and it is not finished. As far as Jesus teaching from the cross. . . . first someone, somewhere, is going to have to start admitting that no mere mortal man could endure the wrath of God and hold twig at the same time. Who was there? 3 Mary's, John, the TWO crucified with Him . . . maybe a few guards. . . . but, think about the first ones He appeared to in His resurrected body? He appeared to His disciples. That clip basically said nothing. . .. yet, to my ears it was still a basic denial of the gospel. How do they do that? For me, one of the scariest things I realized about God post TWI is that sometimes God does allow us to continue in gross error. . . . He leaves us right where we are determined to be.. . . .

Are you okay Roy? This is not the first thread you have started about death. . . . . is everything alright with you?

Geeze RR . . . give me frickin heart failure why don't you? I saw you started a topic in the doctrinal section and nearly spit out my drink. I was hoping you were going to preach it RR style. Here I was all ready for the "Amen" choir. As far as the priests are concerned. . . . I guess sex, sin, and sensationalism(anything as long as it begins with an S) sell advertisements. ... otherwise we would be hearing all about them.

We are up in the Mayor's Cup!! Poor Twinkies. . .

I think you just take anything most mainstream Christians believe and say the opposite or at least twist it to the point it means something else. :) and that is the "word". I don't think VP ever got over being mad at the church for telling him messing around was wrong and he couldn't be a minister anymore unless he stopped. Just a theory.

LOL, I am sorry . . . but, that is just funny. And to shoot themselves in the foot by taking the focus off getting more bodies is just short sighted. Still wonder what the "word" is though. I am thinking some version of PFAL would qualify.