geisha779

Bob, You didn't offend me by quoting Edwards. I told you before I didn't like some of his imagery. However infamous that sermon is, it is not the only thing he wrote. I am comfortable letting Johnathan Edwards stand on his own intellectual merit. When I am part of a great awakening, and certain I completely understand God's movement in history ....well, maybe I will critique him more. I do enjoy reading the Puritans...and Edwards preached in the area I live in now, his grandson was Aaron Burr(Yale)......DL Moody was born not too far away and I own the letters and diary of a contemporary of Edwards....a local pastor. There is some really great stuff in their writing. DL Moody used to street preach and go into bars. ...he wrote of one man who was in the bar....followed him home and was saved. He started a school for needy kids....on the property where he was born ...I go there and sit in the chapel sometimes and try to imagine what it was like. My kitchen table is the same one DL Moody sat at when he witnessed to my great grandfather. I love that I have it. Conviction and repentance are a part of the gospel message. When we were yet sinners.....Repent.....I think it is an important part. How do I even know I need saving? If God loves me just the way I am...why do I need a savior? As for the rest...I simply took what you said about TWI's Christology being the correct one at face value. Since I know you are aware that what I am saying is, for the most part, found in any good study bible....and not overbearing...I figured I would mention it. How you became Mr. Easy Believism is anyone's guess....it couldn't be from me explaining why I discern intellectual assent and genuine faith in Hebrews...that wouldn't make sense. How this is a bad thing is beyond me....I was delivered from some pretty ugy things in TWI...I am sure you meant to rejoice for me. As for being angry? Well, of course it makes me angry when people are lead astray. I want everyone to see the true beauty of the Lord.

No, it is MORE than Ok. It is a date! :) We will have sooo much fun. Let's really make it a day! I seriously can't wait to hang out with you! Stick the banjo in the car....you and Ian will have to meet. I am grinning ear to ear!!

Just a thought about the time thing....I believe Jesus entered into time from eternity. . . . eternity entered time with Him...not that He had a beginning. There is one to ponder with John 1:1.....:) Love the time stuff.

OMG! I am so excited! :) The 23, 24th or 25th look good? We will have a blast!! Oh Mstar, how fun! Oops, I nearly forgot my manners.....thank you! I look forward to going with a fan. Let me know about the tix.

What? Jesus had to suffer and die because we sin. ...we should abhor sin every bit as much as God does. . . His ways and all that. And the sin, that bears eternal consequences I was speaking of.....is a rejection of Jesus Christ. Whether it be turning to works, a rejection outright, or making up a God we think is good. My thoughts anyway.

Bob, I really do appreciate the response....I want you to know that....but, I would ask you to remember that I too held that particular Christology and view of God in TWI, so, I am not coming at this from an outsiders perspective. I understand you still adhere to some of the beliefs we held in TWI about who Jesus is, and although I gather your theology has progressed to some form of open theism. . . . it is eons apart from where I landed. There is no way that I can possibly equate the holy, reverent and deeply intimate relationship between Jesus and the Father to that of reaching up into Daddy's cookie jar for a parking space at Walmart, red drapes, or some perceived revelation used to torture someone into believing they were demonically possessed. For "abundance". TWI was self-promoting, self-aggrandizing, and self-serving. I believe that it is an eternal relationship between Father and Son and that Jesus, when praying for those who tortured Him, was responding to that deep commitment, love, and intimacy. "He poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Paul, when he was hungry, or felt abandoned, or had rocks thrown at him....that intimacy sustained him. God is good, but, I am going to have to borrow from my friend Roy, and ask...."What is good?" His ways are good. His ways are also not our ways. God is holy. . . holy.. . holy. God gave us everything in Christ. . ..we earned nothing. It is the most precious gift, the most deeply intimate expression of love there is....and it is the only acceptable sacrifice. God is holy, just, and a judge. He showed us His love in Jesus. What is just when a person hears the truth about that gift of salvation, that awesome sacrifice and expression of love and then turns to some kind of works based sacrifice to stand before God? Demotes Jesus? Is that a rejection of the gift? Is that saying the gift was not good enough? Hearing, agreeing, believing and then turning away to earn one's way or to continue in sin. ...is not faith. Not trust....It just isn't and all the reasoning we can come up with doesn't change that. There is true faith and there is easy believism. I didn't say anyone here is in the hands of an angry God. I simply pointed out what Hebrews was speaking to. If your faith is in Jesus Christ. ...why would you assume that? BTW, you just showed me you don't want to hear it. ...the harsh reality....exactly what I said. Overbearing? Read the book. In fact, buy yourself a good study bible and read the notes. ...I am not saying anything shocking. If you are really interested in Johnathan Edwards, Yale (also in CT) has a Johnathan Edwards Center with all of his works, letters, and biography. Where was VP's center again?

You know, pssst, if you were really smart, you would start a little group....you could use "Research" in the title....start out small......find some impressionable kids.....set yourself up as the arbiter of "truth"....run classes even....hey, all the babes you need just hanging on your every word....money....maybe even a customized motor coach.....and best of all, you don't have to keep all this truth to yourself. Not bad work if you can get it.

Oh goody....RESEARCH!!!

Well, my birthday is in August....so....it's a date!! :)

So we can join you in your pit of darkness and strong delusion?....or into the glorious ranks of what. ... again? The enlightened? Why, thank you!!. . ..It has been years since someone has made a similar offer. ...the last time I had to sign a green card and shell out $40.00 dollars for the "truth" and to climb out of my pit of darkness....that didn't work out so well. What perks do you offer?

Why take a section out of a storybook to prove your claim? I am not following. Help me here, I am not such a skilled debater. You claim the bible is fiction. ...yet you extrapolate from it to prove a point about Jesus being a fraud and liar? You claim the God of the bible is not real, but then use the Jewish faith in the same (storybook) God to make a counterpoint about original sin? Huh? (scratches head) That is. .. . fascinating.

Take the T. ..it goes right near Fenway. You don't have a brood of kids. ...but, you can always pick me up on the way to Boston. . . . you have to go right by me.... I think?

Here you go Thomas. ...my kid knows Rebecca St. James and last night he met Stephen Colbert. LOL :) Who, BTW, still teaches Sunday school! <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuWneEsHERI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuWneEsHERI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuWneEsHERI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgyZCgw6kdw&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgyZCgw6kdw&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgyZCgw6kdw&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I love that you find your comfort in Him. We rest in Him. ...Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." As far as worshiping the Lord. . . . is He worthy of worship? Is He worthy of praise? In Isaiah 6.....we read.... I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory." And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven." Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed." John 12 references this.... This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. Who is Isaiah speaking of here? Who did they not believe on? Who is subject matter? If you have questions about Jesus and worship, study His quotations from the OT. :) I know I had questions, it helped me. And, I do worship the Lord. It is still the illumination of the Holy Spirit, which gives light to the understanding of Jesus. It was a huge deal for Him to die for our sins.

Critical theological eggheads? Charming. I am a trinitarian, so I imagine I fall into that category of trinitarians who might "imagine" we in TWI held a low Christology and of course that high view of Daddy and his cookie jar. ... the importance of red drapes and the miraculous snow on gas pumps. Surely I, and the rest of Christendom(at least those crazy trinitarians) must be just plain nuts. I do plead innocence to being an egghead. I have a rather nicely shaped head. . . . or so I am told. Blond, so no chance of intelligence here. The discerning I was referring to is pretty well extrapolated in Cynic's post. . . . it was not aimed at the participants of the discussion, but thank-you for attempting to correct my tone. I promise not to go all Johnathan Edwards on anyone. I got nothing for you Bob, on the harsh reality.. . . must have been my imagination. It couldn't possibly be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . . or that there is sin that bears eternal consequence.

:) Thanks, sounds good. Not really too much of an Elvis fan .. ..just a bit intrigued by the whole Elvis thing. . . and I like a few songs. I am Facebook friends with a woman claiming to be Elvis' half-sister. She had enough DNA evidence to have the estate of Elvis' father, Vernon, reopened. . ..unprecedented. . ..fascinating stuff. Of course, I think she is a bit nutty, but fun to watch from a safe distance. I am also friends with very good people. ...and there is even a Yankee's fan on there. :) Here is a good one by Crosby, Stills, and Nash....no Young. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlVNod_krsM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlVNod_krsM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlVNod_krsM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I agree Cynic, it was written to both. . . .I never got there. . . .or past 4:12 which is what I was addressing. . . . we got caught up in the usual affront that comes when one dares discern between the genuine and false. It never fails here when discussing this issue. I always consider where I am posting. This is an ex-way site and we all have come from such a low Christology and view of God, I expect some opposition to what may seem harsh ....there are serious and severe warnings in Hebrews. They convey an unpleasant reality IMO. James D G Dunn, whom Steve has mentioned reading in other posts, is in fact a part of the new perspective on Paul along with NT Wright and others.. ...pretty astute on your part. . . . I caught this on another thread about Paul and have kept it in mind. This is the crux. . .."Can a genuine Christian apostatize? I think not, but think the impossibility of apostasy involves divinely superintended perseverance of the Christian (Philippians 2:12-13), and is based on the gracious election of the Father, the obedience, sacrifice, and infallible intercession of the Son, and the effectual calling and work of the Holy Spirit. The level of certainty one should have about the genuineness of one's faith is another question." When one has gone from a form of apostasy, in the midst of staunch determination that they were heaven bound and all hell could not stop them. .. ..to frightening conviction, painful repentance, and faith. ...the realization of filthy rags is staggering. My inability, without intercession, without direct (unaided by me)deliverance is almost impossible to convey without sounding trite. These realities have been borne out in my own life, so, I almost always end up appealing to personal witness and testimony. ....

Lucky. . . I want to see the jungle room at Graceland. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

It is funny, because it is so true. . . . that made me laugh . . . a lot.

First of all, I gave a personal testimony of my conversion post TWI, so I don't really appreciate the sarcasm about a "wierwillian" term. It may not be something you agree with, or understand, but I promise you it is true enough, at least in my own life. I did not come to Jesus until after TWI. I did not put my faith Him, nor was I born-again. Transformed. Although, I believed the gospel . . .or a form thereof. . . . You need look no further than these forums to see people who have walked away from some confession of faith and some form of assent to understand what I am saying if you really wish to. If your heart is committed to Christ, and you believe He is the only complete way, and you know Him and are known by Him.. . .you are a new creature, God has created in you a new heart. . . . you are in a monogamous relationship and He is able to keep you....are you going to turn to something else? Turn back to works based sacrifice? Is Jesus so incapable He cannot save? Why put your faith in Him? I need a complete savior who can keep me. I have to trust in Him and all He did. . ...because anything I have is filthy rags. I bring nothing to the table. If you have seen that glory, that holiness, been in that presence that drops you to your knees. If you have come to Him. .. . to a knowledge of the truth. . ..do you turn away and say it isn't enough? No. You worship. You trust. You are in subjection. You belong to Him and you rest from all your works to attain but, in Him. It is just possible that someone can agree to the facts. ..even confess....and not put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Not know Him. We came from such a group. Intellectual assent. By the way. . . that is a term James D G Dunn uses, along with just about every bible scholar I have read. That said . . . how many ways can I say that this verse is a warning. Hebrews vs Israel's disobedience in the OT, not entering into the promised rest....that was a result of their unbelief. . . . Yes? Disobedience is a result of not truly believing or trusting. Not having real faith in someone. Fair enough? 4:12 is not a "how to" verse in my opinion. . ..look at the severe language? 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. It is not about teaching us how to discern what comes out of our heart, in this context, but it is about discerning and judging us. Big difference.

Bob, I did not say Hebrews was written to essentially unbelievers . . . . I said it was written to those who agreed to the facts, and believed it was true . . . . but, had not put their faith in Christ, they were still on the fence. They intellectually assented to the gospel. Which is basically what Hebrews is saying. Here is what I think . . . . It would be like someone here saying "Yeah, I used to believe that, but, I don't anymore." I have no reason to doubt their sincerity. I am sure they did agree to the facts at one time. Made a confession of some kind. However, being a Christian is not being part of a religion. . . . believing Dogma. . . . or an exercise in academics. . . it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. A commitment, and although we are not always the most faithful. . . . God is and is able to keep us. In Hebrews it is clear to me that there was not yet an irreversible paradigm shift . http://bible.org/ser...rsible-paradigm I am not the only person to ever say this. But, thanks for the response. :) A paradigm shift doesn’t generally happen on its own. One’s paradigm will only shift when the data forces it to. Face-to-face with an undeniable reality, we see something with new eyes. Coming to faith in Christ is that kind of a thing for many people. Very few people actually grasp the gospel the first time. They must hear the message of it again and again. It’s common to find people who may not know or understand the difference between knowing about Jesus and trusting in him, between having an intellectual assent and having a real relationship. Sure they can recite the creeds, but they don’t understand what it means to know him and be known by him. Suppose I teach through the Gospel of John or the book of Romans. Eventually, a light will go on, all-of-a-sudden. It might take several teachings, but suddenly a coherent way of seeing will emerge, whereby they can now see that this is what it really means to be a follower of Jesus. It’s not just believing in a proposition; it’s trusting in a person. There is a huge difference, because Christianity is not a religion; it’s a relationship. And while the Bible is filled with important propositional truth, the revelation was not given to inform us, but to transform us. And that revelation demands a response. The message of the gospel is a series of propositions that invite a personal response -- a cognitive response, a volitional response and sometimes an emotional response. That response is the paradigm shift that leads to Christian conversion.

I am sorry Thomas, I simply can't accept that. LOL :) No, no, no. ________________________________________________ Heard this yesterday . . .I never appreciated Elvis when he was alive. . . I love some of his songs now. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHHEF2IwqTs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHHEF2IwqTs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHHEF2IwqTs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I get that from the context- - - -intensified persecution exposes the genuine nature of a persons faith----I get it from them not fully identifying with Christ---- their willingness to demote Christ----their willingness to hold on to symbols and rituals-----chapters 10-12 speak about the difference between genuine and false faith----chapter 2 warnings of drifting from what they heard-----chapter 3 warns of not believing the voice of God -----chapter 5 departing from the elementary teaching of Christ-----10 despising the knowledge of the truth----12 departing from Him who is speaking---- Verse 5:11 A slow response to the preaching of the gospel. Needing to learn the elementary principles. If their faith was in Christ already they would have HAD to have known these things. How else would they put their faith in Him? Exposure and agreeing doesn't equal conversion. Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. That doesn't mean believing there is a God, but having faith in who He is as He is IMO. The rest of 11 makes sense of that verse. Anyone can say I believe there was a Jesus. Muslims believe that My salvation is not dependent on my ability to keep it-----no one can snatch me from Him----not even me----but, I had to first come to that faith in Christ----draw near, full assurance----urging them to bear this word of exhortation. My faith has to be in the better way Hebrews points to. And quite frankly----I had some exposure to the gospel in TWI and out----sort of----and I did believe it-----but, I did not put my faith in Christ----I was not born-again in TWI . I relate to this book. Hebrew 12:11 As for "beware" I did not open my bible when I wrote that post and it took me a very few minutes, but the language in Hebrews is what I was pointing to . . . .things like "better" "new" "perfect" and "example". If people are interested, they can look it up like you did. :) As for your last point and giving an account. . . . we will stand before the judgment seat of. . . . . . I too believe it is God. Who gives us our crowns? Whose feet do we cast them to? The scariest warning to me is for them NOT to be like their ancestors who wandered in the wilderness . . . . .kind of like, ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth . . . jumping from one thing to another. . . never grasping the simplicity of faith in Christ. As an aside . . . . it is interesting how the writer (whoever it is) is fairly specific about referencing the OT and then in 4:4 says Oh yeah and somewhere He said God rested on the seventh day.. Kind of makes one chuckle and go huh?

Okay, don't laugh-----but, my very favorite song ever since I was a very little girl has been Moon River----Elton John, has been my favorite anything since 3rd grade----I have always been a nearly fanatical and very faithful fan(Even in TWI)-----so, Elton John singing Moon River-----I love it! The pink coat just makes it complete! <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Hey Gen-2 I am curious what people think strong meat really is? :) Perhaps it is. . . to the measure of the stature of the fullness in Christ. . . . and not some super-duper special x-ray ability, but knowing that Christ is all in all. That is enough right there. The thing is . . . God had promised them rest.. . . He would deliver them . . . twice He said. . . I did it this way, so that you couldn't say it was through your own power and might that this was accomplished. I think seeking ex-way also have to be wary and not miss that rest promised in Jesus. Hebrews explains why they struggled so much in the OT and how we also can fall into that. . . . Hebrews is a perfect book for ex-way. We did the same thing in TWI, we missed faith in the completeness of Christ and let our faith rest in our knowledge. . . . just like the people in Noah's day. . . we missed the boat. Oh and I was happy to see you in the baseball forum!! Go Cubs