geisha779

Robert, NT Wright too? My, the list of those who you hold in low regard is long.....I am really starting to lose track?? Now, step back for a moment and think....consider why I might post that particular clip.....give it some time...it will sink in. Was my purpose to "prove" something? Argue incessantly over words? Or to offer some comfort? Got it yet? Geisha BTW...you are seriously asking about one of the world's leading and most respected bible scholar's study habits? LOL too funny.

You poor dear, and I mean that quite sincerely.....you are having such a difficult time and....you sound quite frustrated? No worries, you can always just write me off as "people like you". Oh wait, you did that, and all without ever having met me....or knowing anything of my educational background, ethnicity, socio-economic status, gender, or the stability of relationships in my life. Well, see, that should help make you feel better!!:)

Some of the sweetest people I know are devil spirits, I mean gay. TWI is run by two . . . . ..women???

Um, scripture says lying is wrong....ever tell a lie? Scripture says pride is a sin....ever been prideful? Scripture says discontentment is a sin....ever been discontent? Scripture says being un-thankfulness is a sin......ever not been thankful? Scripture says selfishness is a sin.....ever been selfish? Here are a few more, lack of self-control, anger, envy, jealousy, worldliness, sins of the tongue......AND ta da judgmentalism!! Ever go to fellowship having those in your closet? The gospel is ONLY for sinners.....perfect people don't need it......the gospel is not just for salvation, but to enable us to deal with the ongoing activity of sin in our lives. Now, knowing all that, where do you think someone grappling with some kind of sin.....should actually be??

I know you have been grappling with this issue Roy, and I wanted to show you what a bible scholar says about what happens, after a Christian dies. N.T. Wright. I want to share it with you because, I know this is an issue you are considering, and because he says basically what you are saying. :) We have hope Roy....and peace....we go to be with the Lord....if we belong to him.....he keeps us. O death where is thy sting? Well said Sunesis. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

You have already poisoned the well, why should I or anyone else now believe anything you try to explain to us? If you had approached us and said "If scripture is true...why this or that?" We might possibly have a discussion, but no.....you declared it fiction.....and now want to make your points about Jesus being a fraud and liar FROM fiction. Even I know that if you want to make a point.....you first look at the evidence, build a case, and then draw a reasoned conclusion.....you don't even offer a good alternative or some kind of defense for the existential questions scriptures answers.....just some passing reference to some mythical ID God you have imagined and decided to believe in...that doesn't really fill me with confidence in your ability to discern. Can you do that by the way? Prove the God you believe in? At least I have the scriptures, which oddly have outlived all its pallbearers. No, you have spoken excathedra and declared the scriptures fiction......now you want to use them to prove your point? Too late. All we could possibly have now is a discussion on the subjective nature of literature..... Hey, but thanks for trying to save us from ourselves.....I am going with Jesus....at least He offers some substantial wisdom....whether you see it or not.....it is your choice.

Katie, Even Satan is in subjection to God. . .and God is not depending on us to extinguish the darkness. . . He does however, allow us to share the glorious light of the gospel of Christ. Sometimes I think even the highest understanding of God we can have....doesn't scratch the surface. Thanks for the response. :) Take Care

I was reading a reference to the stars differing in glory the other day. I wish I could find it, but it is pretty similar to what you are saying. The writer likened it to bronze, silver, and gold. It was fascinating. BTW Isn't Christ already is the light of the world? :) Don't all things get put in subjection to Christ who then hands them to the Father? I probably have a different take on being glorified....sharing in Christs suffering in this life and sharing in God's glory...but, it is so interesting to me on how you speak of time and space....I love that stuff. It is so perspective building. Here is an article you might enjoy about God's glory. I always think it will be different than any of us believe. http://bible.org/seriespage/glory-god-romans-830 . . . We have come to the conclusion of Paul’s words in verses 28-30, to the culmination of the process God purposed in eternity past, and to the highest good known to man. Our glorification is the conclusion of the process Paul has been describing. It is the “good” of which Paul has spoken in verse 28. Because our glorification is so little understood, we will pursue at length this theme through the Bible. Essentially there are but two kinds of glory in this world. There is the matchless, untarnished glory of God, and there is the tarnished, temporary glory of man. If we would understand our glorification, we must understand it in the context of the glory of God and against the backdrop of man’s glory. The theme of the glory of God is best understood as it has been revealed. God has progressively revealed to us the doctrine of His glory, of its hope and promise for all who are the sons of God, and of its terror for all others. We will therefore endeavor to trace the theme of God’s glory from eternity past to eternity future. Only then can we understand the magnitude of that glorification which yet awaits those of us who know God in Christ. We will consider the premises which should guide and govern our study, as well as the conclusions we will reach, before we begin to study the glory of God. These premises enumerated here are based upon the teaching of Paul in the Book of Romans. (1) Glory and glorification must be understood in relationship to each other. Our glorification is to be understood in the light of Paul’s teaching about glory in Romans. (2) Our glorification, while spoken of in the past tense, is yet future. (3) Our glorification involves the redemption of our bodies and our adoption as sons (8:17-25; 9:4). (4) Our glorification is certain (5:2), yet unseen (8:24-25). (5) Our present suffering is preparatory and prerequisite to our future glorification (5:17). (6) Our future glorification is God’s promised reward for the righteous, the “glory” of which Paul writes in Romans 2:7 and 10. (7) Our future glorification is an extension or expression of God’s glory (5:2). (8) The glory is that which God promised Israel and which Paul still speaks of as belonging to Israel (Romans 9:4). Having set these premises before us, let us now trace the “glory of God” through the ages as described in the Bible. No more noble endeavor will ever come our way. Let us ask God to open our hearts and minds to His glory. It is indeed a transforming subject. Satan was a magnificent being with a splendor second only to His Creator. But his reflected, secondary glory was not enough for him. He wanted more. He wanted God’s glory (Isaiah 14:12-14). Because of his greed for glory, Satan fell. All history is evidence of his continuing effort to tempt men to pursue a “God-like glory,” not by trusting in God but by striving to be like God. When God made the heavens and the earth, He created Adam and Eve in His image. They were to reflect God’s image and His glory by ruling over creation. Satan tempted them to reach for a greater glory, the glory of being like God (see Genesis 3:5). When they followed Satan and disobeyed God, Adam and Eve fell, and all mankind fell with them (see Romans 5:12-21). God created the universe as a showcase by which He could display His glory. Men were to see God’s glory in nature, and were obliged to glorify Him in worship. They refused, choosing rather to exchange the glory of God for a lesser glory, one which was like unto their own image. Because of this, men have shown themselves to be worthy of divine condemnation (Romans 1:18-23). In the beginning, God’s glory was reflected in His creation and in man. Sin has tarnished the reflection of God’s glory. God chose a people to whom and through whom He could display His glory—the nation Israel. God’s glory was evident in His deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage (Numbers 14:22). It was evident in the wilderness, especially when the people sought to rebel against God (Exodus 16:7, 10; Numbers 14:10; 16:19, 42). God’s glory was revealed at Mt. Sinai, when He gave the Law to Moses (Exodus 24:16-17). It was also evident in the garments of the priest (Exodus 28:2, 40). It filled the tent of meeting (Exodus 29:42-43; 40:34-35; see also Leviticus 9:6, 23). Seeing God’s glory was the highest ambition and desire of Moses, a desire which God granted to him, in part (Exodus 33:18–34:8). When Israel went to war, God’s glory accompanied them in conjunction with the ark (see 1 Samuel 4:21-22). Israel’s sin resulted in the manifestation of God’s glory in judgment (Exodus 16:7, 10; Numbers 14:10; 16:19, 42). Eventually God removed His glory from the midst of this people, as a judgment for their persistent sin (see 1 Samuel 4:21-22). When the tabernacle was replaced by the temple, the glory of God filled it (1 Chronicles 16:10; 2 Chronicles 7:1-3). Israel’s glory was her God (1 Samuel 15:29). Glory belonged only to Him (1 Chronicles 29:11). Israel’s response to God’s glory was to glorify Him in worship (1 Chronicles 16:29). Even sinners were to give glory to God (see Joshua 7:19; 1 Samuel 6:5). Israel was not to worship idols because this would give glory to mere images, rather than to God. But beyond glorifying God in worship, Israel was to tell the nations of God’s glory (1 Chronicles 16:24). This is the heart of evangelism, then and now. Israel did not glorify God. They turned from the God of glory to man-made idols. They did not obey His law. Justice and mercy were forgotten; worse yet, they were trampled under foot. Through His prophets, God admonished His people but they would not listen. God warned of a coming day of judgment at the hand of heathen nations. Beyond the day of God’s judgment was a day of redemption and restoration. There would come a time when Israel would be brought to repentance. God would then rule over them and even over the other nations. All of this was described in various ways in the prophets. One of the prominent themes in the prophets was that of the glory of God. The theme of the glory of God as related to Israel’s sin, her judgment, and then her deliverance and future restoration are described by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Below are a sampling of the verses which play out the theme of God’s glory: Israel’s Sin Against God’s Glory And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory” (Isaiah 6:3). For Jerusalem has stumbled, and Judah has fallen, Because their speech and their actions are against the Lord, To rebel against His glorious presence (Isaiah 3:8). “I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images” (Isaiah 42:8). “‘For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me,’ declares the Lord, ‘that they might be for Me a people, for renown, for praise, and for glory; but they did not listen’” (Jeremiah 13:11). God’s Glory Requires His Judgment of Israel’s Sin “Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory; And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks” (Isaiah 8:7). Now it will come about in that day that the glory of Jacob will fade, And the fatness of his flesh will become lean (Isaiah 17:4). How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He has cast from heaven to earth The glory of Israel, And has not remembered His footstool In the day of His anger (Lamentations 2:1). God’s Glory and the Overthrow of the Nations Which Were His Chastening Rod And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah (Isaiah 13:19). But now the Lord speaks, saying, “Within three years, as a hired man would count them, the glory of Moab will be degraded along with all his great population, and his remnant will be very small and impotent” (Isaiah 16:14). “The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, And sovereignty from Damascus And the remnant of Aram; They will be like the glory of the sons of Israel,” Declares the Lord of hosts (Isaiah 17:3). God’s Glory and the Restoration of Israel In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel (Isaiah 4:2). Then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy (Isaiah 4:5). But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles (Isaiah 9:1). Then it will come about in that day That the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious (Isaiah 11:10). Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders (Isaiah 24:23). In that day the Lord of hosts will become a beautiful crown And a glorious diadem to the remnant of His people (Isaiah 28:5). The Nations Will Glorify God Therefore a strong people will glorify Thee; Cities of ruthless nations will revere Thee (Isaiah 25:3). “And you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’ In truth, in justice, and in righteousness; Then the nations will bless themselves in Him, And in Him they will glory” (Jeremiah 4:2). All Creation Will Glorify God “The beasts of the field will glorify Me; The jackals and the ostriches; Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people” (Isaiah 43:20). Shout for joy, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the Lord has redeemed Jacob And in Israel He shows forth His glory (Isaiah 44:23). Before leaving the theme of the glory of God in the Old Testament, several important observations should be stressed: First, Israel’s glory was to share in the glory of God. Israel did not have a glory of her own. Israel was, by divine design, established for the glory of God. God’s presence among His people was glory to Israel. The righteousness of God manifested in and through His people was the glory of God. “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel will be justified, and will glory” (Isaiah 45:25). “No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the Lord for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory” (Isaiah 60:19). “I bring near My righteousness, it is not far off; And My salvation will not delay. And I will grant salvation in Zion, and My glory for Israel” (Isaiah 46:13). Second, God’s glory is as evident in His judgment of sin as it is in the manifestation of His righteousness through His people. When Israel sinned, they were unrighteous. This did not glorify God. God’s glory was therefore manifested in His wrath toward sin. Whether in her obedience or in her disobedience, God would be glorified through His people, Israel. Third, Israel’s glory was not to be hoarded but to be shared with and by the other nations. Israel quickly began to think of her glory as her glory. While God would not share His glory with any other “gods,” Israel was to share her glory with the nations. This she refused to do. When God spoke of the glory that was to come, Israel would be glorified, but the nations would also have a share in it. Behold, you will call a nation you do not know, And a nation which knows you not will run to you, Because of the Lord your God, even the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you (Isaiah 55:5). Surely the coastlands will wait for Me; And the ships of Tarshish will come first, To bring your sons from afar, Their silver and their gold with them, For the name of the Lord your God, And for the Holy One of Israel because He has glorified you (Isaiah 60:9). For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. And I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Rosh, Tubal, and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations (Isaiah 66:18-19). Fourth, Israel’s glory would ultimately be brought about by Messiah Who would first suffer and then enter into His glory. Israel, God’s servant, failed. She had proven that she was unable to be the servant God required. The Messiah was to take Israel’s place and to become the Suffering Servant. Only in Him could Israel be justified. Only in Him could Israel be glorified: Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law (Isaiah 42:1-4; see also 52:13-15; 53:1-12). Christ: God’s Glory Revealed in the Flesh Our Lord Jesus Christ is God’s revelation of His glory. If the creation manifests the glory of God, far more does the One who created it—God manifested in the flesh: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14). And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Hebrews 1:3). It is no wonder that glory accompanied the announcements of Christ’s coming: And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened (Luke 2:9). “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased” (Luke 2:14). “A light of revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Thy people Israel” (Luke 2:32). This “glory” of our Lord was often veiled during the days of our Lord upon the earth. It could be seen by His mighty deeds,215 and by His character, but most were unable to see it, even His disciples. And so, from time to time, God lifted the veil. Such was the case at our Lord’s transfiguration: Who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him (Luke 9:31-32). Throughout His earthly life, Jesus did not seek men’s glory but rather He sought to glorify His Father.216 In His high priestly prayer for His disciples in those last hours before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed: “And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was” (John 17:5). “And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one” (John 17:22). “Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24). Because the nation Israel had rejected God, they also rejected His Son. They crucified Him, nailing Him to the cross of Calvary. By means of His innocent suffering and death, God provided the only means by which sinners could be saved. Jesus bore the wrath of God in the sinner’s place. Jesus provided the righteousness of God, which the sinner could never produce. Because of His suffering, God glorified the Lord Jesus: Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:9-11). The glory of our Lord has its present dimensions for which the Christian can now rejoice. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory (2 Corinthians 3:7-11). But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18). We who have seen the glory of God in Christ have also been given the privilege of proclaiming the glory of God displayed in the gospel: In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We have the privilege while waiting for the coming of His glory to live our lives to His glory: For all things are for your sakes, that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God (2 Corinthians 4:15). Wherefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God (Romans 15:7). As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ (2 Corinthians 8:23). We, along with Israel of old, look forward to the full revelation of the glory of God in His kingdom at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ: When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory (Colossians 3:4). Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (Titus 2:13). Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed (1 Peter 5:1). After these things I heard, as it were, a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God (Revelation 19:1). And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk by its light, and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it (Revelation 21:23-24). Conclusion Having briefly traced the theme of the glory of God through the Scriptures, we may now draw some conclusions as to the meaning of “glorified” in Roman 8:30. (1) To be glorified is to enter into the blessings of the full glory of God which we now experience in part. (2) To be glorified is to receive our adoption as sons and the redemption of our bodies. (3) To be glorified is to be free from the corruption of sin and death. (4) To be glorified is to experience the goal for which we were chosen, called, and justified. (5) To be glorified is to obtain that “good” for which God has been causing all things to work together (Romans 8:28). (6) To be glorified is to have a share in the glory which belongs to Israel. A number of implications which have very practical outworkings in our daily lives may be drawn from our text. The glorification of the believer is a sure and certain hope. As Paul said earlier, “we exult in hope of the glory of God” (Romans 5:2). God purposed and promised it. God is sovereign, and He controls each step in His program to assure that it is accomplished. God’s reputation and glory are at stake. All three of the crucial verbs in our text are in the past tense: “called,” “justified,” “glorified.” Even though this final step of glorification is still future, it is a certain hope. God is the One who is at work. He is the One who is the subject of all three verbs: He “called,” He “justified,” He “glorified.” Because God is sovereign, in complete control, His purpose of glorifying us will be accomplished. The certainty of our hope of glory is rooted in the sovereignty of God. Just as we have been called and justified, so we shall be glorified. God’s infinite wisdom and power are in control. God’s plan is progressing toward that goal. Some try to motivate Christian service and faithfulness by fear, doubt, and guilt. Paul never does, and neither does any writer of the sacred Scriptures. The security of the believer and the certainty of glory is the basis for faithful service. The glory of God is the highest good. We must always view our good as subordinate to the glory of God. We must make the glory of God our ultimate goal. Our glory is always subordinate to His glory. Our glory is His glory. There will always be a “vain glory,” a glory which Satan promotes and which men pursue, but this is not the glory of God. Let us, like Moses, yearn to see His glory and to seek it as our highest good. The glory of God is the standard for our every thought and deed. If we seek a guiding principle for our lives, let the glory of God be of paramount importance. Whatever we do, it should be to the glory of God: “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). The glory of God is the perspective from which life should be viewed and lived out. Satan would have us seek our own glory and the glory which men give one another. God would have us seek His glory alone. Seeking the glory of God gives us a perspective by which all of life can be viewed. In the context of Romans 8, the glory of God is that which gives the Christian hope and confidence in the midst of our sufferings and groanings. Elsewhere, Paul tells us that the glory of God makes our present sufferings seem insignificant: Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him (2 Corinthians 4:16–5:9). The glory of God helps explain a command of Scripture which many find distasteful. More than ever (due to the current drift of our culture), Christian women are perplexed and even distressed at Paul’s command that women refrain from a prominent leadership role in the church. The following texts are usually the source of their dismay: Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? (1 Corinthians 14:34-36). Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression. But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint (1 Timothy 2:11-15). In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word; they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. And let not your adornment be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God (1 Peter 3:1-4). I believe that the “glory of God” gives us the perspective which not only explains the reason for this biblical imperative but can also give us joy in obeying it. Note the way in which Paul uses the term glory in this text: But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God (1 Corinthians 11:3-16). Many efforts have been made to explain this text. Many have failed. In spite of this, I urge you to reconsider Paul’s words in this text in the light of our study of the glory of God. God alone is worthy of glory. God prohibits men from giving glory to anyone or anything other than Himself, yet He does grant us a share in His glory. Satan, on the other hand, wants to tempt us to seek our own glory rather than to give glory to God. He even tried to tempt our Lord to pursue a lesser glory: Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; (Matthew 4:8). If we view God’s glory as the highest good, our highest good, then we will not seek any lesser glory. We will gladly give to God the preeminence, position, and praise which He alone deserves. This is precisely the premise on which the New Testament writers base their instruction to Christian women. God has given men the task of reflecting His glory. They are therefore to assume positions of leadership and preeminence in the church. Women are to reflect the believer’s response to the glory of God. They are not to seek that which gives them glory but are to gladly conduct themselves in a way that focuses the glory on their husbands. The husband then uses his glory for the benefit of his wife. This is but a picture of God’s relationship with His children. Why is there such an outcry today about this biblical instruction? I would like to suggest that there are at least three reasons. First, our culture is adamantly opposed to God’s ways. Second, Christians have become enticed to seek their own glory as though it were a virtue, rather than a vice. Finally, they have completely failed to understand the command that women avoid preeminence (including leading and teaching men and getting attention from their clothing or demeanor), in the light of God’s teaching on glory. The doctrine of God’s glory should cause one to delight in surrendering that which we do not deserve and seeking by this to glorify God. God’s glory gives us a new perspective concerning any glory we might seek for ourselves. Paul’s words, found in the eleventh chapter of Romans, provide us with our concluding thought to hold in our minds: “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen” (Romans 11:36).

Since you don't have a brood of kids?? I am sure we are on the way to Logan?? Hey, I would even be happy to be stuck on the evil *Island* from LOST!! Although, it is getting warmer here, our Forsythia bloomed 3 weeks early. . . you can set your watch by those things usually. Spring has sprung. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

What? No one in TWI ever gets sick....has trouble with kids.....or dies? Oh please! What a load of......fill in the blank.

So, what is that like? Meaning.....we will be *what* like our Dad? Just following along and curious. .. it is a vague reference. What attributes of God do you mean? HOW will we be as Gods? Will be as holy as God? All knowing as God? As powerful as God? Seriously, I am GENUINELY interested in what you believe about sharing in God's glory. You too Gen-2 curious what about God....we will be like? There has to be specifics....when we rule our own universe will we be worshiped? Or is it like sub-contracting? Seriously curious...what it is you believe. We know what God is like? Right? What does it MEAN to be glorified?

Steve, Jesus warns us to beware of false teachers who devour....and no shepherd I know of....throws His lambs to the wolves for sport. He watches over them and protects them. He won these victories already....not us....and I have never heard anyone say the Lord lead them into darkness. EVER! As servants we are to bring glory to is name..... not blame. Jesus lead you into the pit? Really? Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life in your stead.....suffered and died for your sins.... lead you into a brood of vipers? Guided you there? And blinded you too? The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. But, Jesus lead you into confusion and evil? Because that is what these groups are. Jesus is the door of the sheep....which means, no one gets by Him. He guided you out the door? Jesus pulls us out of the pit, and we fall in when we take our eyes off Him. But, Jesus lead you into the pit instead? We are redeemed from the "curse" of the law....and rescued from the power of darkness. No? Jesus put His hands over your eyes? Really? The same Jesus who heals the blind? The one who sets the captives free? He lead you to be enslaved again so you could write about it? 2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. That is what we were blinded from seeing in TWI. One of the worst theological errors you can make.....is attributing to the Lord the works of the devil.... Psalm 119:176 I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands. The Lord is to be glorified, not held responsible for our own willful blindness. Don't forget, I was there too....by my own doing in seeking something other than Him. By letting my ears be tickled....and hearing exactly what I wanted to. That is how I got tricked. Scripture tells us how we are tricked. It isn't Jesus doing it. It also tells us in Jude how to rescue those caught up in apostasy. . .. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, God doesn't lead us into this...blind us and then have us tell about it. He says be careful...pray...keep yourselves in His love and look for the MERCY of the Lord...save them with fear...because He doesn't want us burned or caught up in these things. He is able to keep us from falling. Being blind is not sanctification....that must be something those of you who "understand correctly" about Jesus get.....it is not the Lord I know. Carry on.... I left this kind of thing years ago. Jesus is worthy of all praise, honor, and glory.

Sadly....they do.. ..LOL Between that and their incessant..."This is Twins Country". Bleck. I think it started out derogatory and was adopted affectionately.

They were both male?

Twinkies v Sox tonight ..... always a pleasant, peaceful, and quiet time in my house. :) I almost root for the Twinkies, just so I don't have to see hubby mope and set his jaw. LOL Prediction......slug fest.....not a pitching duel....Twins have a lot to prove before the sold out crowd.....Mauer tries to make his contract look cheap.....but, the Sox kill them!! Oh and Papi breaks the slump in GRAND style while hubby is yelling at the TV.

Steve, I have to wonder about this? I am sure there is something you are articulating that I am not grasping here.....remember I am blond. However, it concerns me a bit when I read this above... especially in light of your following paragraph concerning your motivation for not being lead astray again. 2 Peter 3 14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Read in VP et al. Although the things Paul wrote were difficult to understand, this was NOT to be the jumping off point for leaps of imagination. This is where false teachers take their opportunity. We can't keep falling into this trap. Paul's teachings, just like Peter's, were being distorted by apostate false teachers, not enemies on the other side of the planet wearing different uniforms. By those who were among them. At this time, Paul was already gone, and the message they were distorting was.... the day of the Lord, judgment, and His return...... they also attacked who Jesus is.... How were the believers to conduct themselves in these times? Amidst these things? Spotless and blameless. Peter sums it up in one basic truth...But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Any teaching that does not give Jesus Christ His full glory right now and throughout eternity....is false, leads to destruction, is unstable, and leads one astray. Paul writes of salvation. Where does the leap of imagination enter? Look at Paul's teaching, his confession, and his focus. There is no where to go beyond that beginning and end. Some of us haven't even gotten there yet. What else is there that our imagination has to conjur? There is no hidden knowledge. That is what the false teachers were teaching.....because they were living immoral lifestyles, and they were trying to get people to join. They were taking Paul's words and twisting them to justify immoral living. "All you have is this silly promise". But, they had hidden knowledge ...which btw excused their lifestyle. Sound familiar? Jesus wasn't enough for them.....they wanted something else. They rejected Him and imagined something that would satisfy their senses. This is where we keep getting tripped up......Jesus Christ ..... there is nothing else...and certainly nothing better.....and we can understand what Paul is saying IF we keep our focus on what he was speaking to....Jesus Christ. A quest for some other knowledge or wisdom...only enslaves us. Sorry, I mean no offense, but a leap of imagination comes when we are trying to rationalize a belief or lifestyle.

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Just because.... :) <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object><object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object><object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Steve, My pastor told an interesting story today. He was walking down the street and there was a great big hole and he fell in. Well, it took him awhile, and all his effort, but he eventually climbed out of the hole. Yet again, he was walking down the street and fell into a great big hole and had to climb out. It was a difficult process, but he finally got out of the hole. The third time he walked down the street and fell into the hole, he got out much more quickly. The next time he saw the hole, he walked around it. . . . .and the next time he saw the hole, he realized he needed to be taking a different street. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Is there something that is causing one to keep traveling these dangerous roads? That is the question I would be asking myself and the Lord. I wouldn't be asking about words and their meaning, but, which way is my compass pointing. Not about Stoics and neo-Platonists, but who is guiding me. There is a path, and it's gate is narrow, which means there is not much room to wander far afield....or carry in too much baggage. I like that road. It comes with a personal guide who loves us and leads us away from holes when we keep our eyes on Him. Enough metaphors for you yet? LOL. ...We will do parables next. :) John 10: 7-9 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Notice I left out verse 10?

Well, actually, I have read your posts....and here is the thing....you use the "story book" and your understanding of it to support your points....yet, you decry an opposing point when supported by the same "story book". For example, Tom's post about the HS in the inerrancy thread. Didn't you ask him where he learned of the HS? Well, let me ask you...where do you read about Jesus? You are going to show us that Jesus is a fraud and liar, by using a book that you say is fraudulent? I tell you what...here is a list of fallacious arguments....see how many you can find that you have already used in your posts. Hint...more than two or three or four..... http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#hominem Poisoning the well from which you draw your own argument? Silly IMO.

Gen-2 Your post to Roy, is fairly profound, yet it is given in such simple and human terms of understanding.....I think it is a good example of reading out an idea or concept from scripture. A good teacher does this....IMO....couches things in simplicity for the hearer to understand. What you said is so true....let's not miss the forest for the trees. This is from an article I was reading this morning. I love bible.org because the contributors are some of the best bible scholars we have IMO. This is what your post brought to my mind .... . . . God's Word tells us that we should expect His revelation, the revelation of an infinite, omniscient, all-wise Creator, to contain an infinite depth that corresponds to His infinite mind. In Isaiah, God tells us about this and says: "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9). Kenneth Boa has an excellent word here concerning the concept of God's thoughts being higher than ours: It follows from all this that we cannot and should not expect to understand the Bible exhaustively. If we could, the Bible would not be divine but limited to human intelligence. A very important idea comes out of this, something over which many non-Christians and even Christians stumble: Since the Bible is an infinite revelation, it often brings the reader beyond the limit of his intelligence. As simple as the Bible is in its message of sin and of free salvation in Christ, an incredible subtlety and profundity underlies all its doctrines. Even a child can receive Christ as his Savior, thereby appropriating the free gift of eternal life. Yet no philosopher has more than scratched the surface regarding the things that happened at the Cross. The Bible forces any reader to crash into the ceiling of his own comprehension, beyond which he cannot go until he sees the Lord face-to-face. Until a person recognizes that his own wisdom and intelligence are not enough, he is not ready to listen to God's greater wisdom. Jesus alluded to this when He said to God, "you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children" (Luke 10:21).4 God has communicated to men truly though not exhaustively. Moses expressed this to us in Deuteronomy 29:29, "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." An understanding of the way the Greek word mystery was used in the New Testament may help us here. It is the Greek word musterion and refers to what was previously hidden, but is now revealed to us through the revelation of the Word (1 Cor. 15:51; Eph. 3:3, 4, 9). Sometimes it is used simply of that which God makes known through His revelation to man which man could not know on his own (1 Cor. 2:7). But there is a sense in which some of God's truth, though clearly revealed in the Bible, remains a mystery. Though it is a truth revealed in Scripture, like the doctrine of the incarnation of the Son of God or the divine/human nature of Jesus Christ, the Trinity is a kind of mystery in that it goes beyond the boundaries of human comprehension. God hasn't explained all the mysteries of His revelation to us undoubtedly because we simply cannot yet grasp them. The Apostle Paul wrote: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12). A city like Corinth, famous for its bronze mirrors, would have particularly appreciated Paul's final illustration. The perfection and imperfection mentioned in verse 10 were deftly likened to the contrasting images obtained by the indirect reflection of one's face viewed in a bronze mirror and the same face when viewed directly. Such, Paul said, was the contrast between the imperfect time in which he then wrote and the perfect time which awaited him and the church when the partial reflection of the present would give way to the splendor of perfect vision. Then Paul would see God (cf. 15:28; 1 John 3:2) as God now saw Paul. Then partial knowledge (cf. 1 Cor. 8:1-3) would be displaced by the perfect knowledge of God.5 Because of our limited capacity in this life, some of the revelations of God given to us in the Bible defy explanation and illustration. When seeking to explain those truths that fall into this category, our explanations and especially our attempts to illustrate them must of necessity fall short of our ability to clarify and comprehend them. Does this mean a doctrine cannot be true simply because it defies our human imagination or ability to comprehend it? The answer is, of course not. It would be nothing short of human arrogance to say it was. The truth is, we must recognize our need to simply trust in God's special revelation to us, the Bible, and submit our minds to that teaching which is truly expressed in its pages. This does not mean we do not test the Scripture to make sure these things are truly taught, but once we are convinced that that is what the Bible says, we must lay hold of it by faith and wait on the eternal future for complete understanding. It would be the height of egotism for a person to say that because an idea in the Bible does not make sense (does not conform to his or her reasoning), it cannot be true and the Bible must be in error on this point.

Thanks cman, I hoped I didn't offend. I was really just playing. I have been stuck with a bad knee today and bored. :) While I have you here...have I mentioned how much I have come to appreciate you and what you contribute? If not, consider it done. Really, more and more I get what you are saying.

Ummm ....it looks like you will fit right in. :) Besides, you have seen me....and that mass of wild woman hair I have....it is a mountain match made in heaven! LOL I blew my knee out today, I have been stuck with it propped up, the day started lousy and it has turned out to be really great. The Red Sox, your company, and a few beers. Now, that is something to look forward to!

Back at you brother! Roy, I always learn from you. I mean it. When you ask "What is?" it always makes me think.

Oh my goodness Todd....so serious? It was a little sarcastic humor....I am from the East Coast....some of us are bred that way. I was bottle fed on sarcasm from birth, and sometimes things just strike me as silly.