geisha779

Romans 1:4....who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. When Jesus was raised from the dead it was through the Holy Spirit.( GOD) According to the Spirit of holiness. Christ's works and power are connected to the holiness of the Holy Spirit.

Or better known as one of the church Fathers. :)

It was a no/no to have certain books or items in your home...devil spirits ya know....when I think of all that vinyl I trashed! My first album ever... :( Burn the chaffe still burns my ***...he wasn't MY Uncle Harry.

Should have known something was wrong when the "Rev" who did the counseling for our wedding ....was in the middle of a divorce and hit on me.

Soul Searcher.....I love that song! It reminds me of a friend I once had.... made me happy and sad all at once and brought me right back to before I ever heard of TWI or knew what an unresolved relationship was. . . . LOL Thanks for posting it.

.I believe twi and the offshoots.... promote the kind of foolish discussions scripture warns Christians to avoid, the kind that leads to ungodliness. Or as Tertullian would say....heresy. What they forbid is the kind of conversation that leads to instruction, faith in and a knowledge of Jesus Christ. There was plenty of vain useless chatter in TWI. Great swelling words of pride....a lust for secret knowledge....accusations against Christians..... accusations against Jesus....a need to compare Him to us instead of we to Him......and a real eagerness to pull Him down from the cross. To rid ourselves of the cross. A shame Jesus endured for our sakes. When Jesus said "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." He was speaking of being lifted up onto the cross. What is appropriate discussion for those drawn to Him? A praise-filled one in a manner worthy of the gospel? Of the Lord? In 2 Timothy 2:14, 16, 23.....wrangling about words....our favorite pastime in TWI...leads to the ruin of hearers. We are to avoid empty chatter which leads to further ungodliness, (notice what is sandwiched in between these two verses)and foolish and ignorant speculations which produce conflict. No matter how brilliant or scholarly the proponents of such discussions may appear .....does it build true faith or exalt the person of Jesus Christ and not the person offering it? Conversation which results in true faith building is Godly. It is not a requirement to be a Christian to post here...these are not Christian forums....and I often appreciate the perspective of those who don't share Christianity as a faith. But, to those who claim a kinship with Him....we are told to avoid certain conversation....no?....and after being in TWI...I have no problem with that admonition.....I understand why. Seems to me Tertullian might have been confronted by it and understood it a bit as well. :)

Tertullian...... :) .... I do know how to Google! Sounded like him anyway.

This is why I declined to articulate to you what I meant by sin nature. Exactly why....I knew it was an invitation to an endless dispute over the meaning of a word. We are no closer to a sound understanding of the Lord Jesus Christ.....but, we now have a volume on your understanding of a word. That profits us in productive Christian living or faith in a perfect and holy sacrifice...how? There you have it.....you could have spared your leisure....Jesus was a holy sacrifice. Distinct....in a separate class. ....morally pure....no rivals....perfect.....and not like us...Peter knew it.... But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Go away from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man! David knew it......because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay. And I know it because........the Holy One of God.....is vindicated or it is articulated by His resurrection.....or the cross...where we find the wisdom of God in perfect sacrifice. Holy, not once...not twice.....but three times.....holy. God's holy character, God Himself.....is revealed in Jesus Christ...in His temptation and response.....He is the express image of God. His wisdom is found in the cross and spotless sacrifice, His glory in the face of Jesus Christ, His mercy in the death, His might in the resurrection, His purpose....in the Alpha and the Omega.... I simply pointed out Jesus holy nature by articulating God's in relation to temptation. When I asked "Did Jesus?" it was rhetorical, to make a point. I never dreamed you would dispute or spend time trying to deny it. Never, that you would say Jesus was drawn away. His holiness is no longer veiled by an earthly body......which is why we fall down as John does in Revelation. John, who was so familiar with Him. That is the proper response to Jesus when we understand or see His holiness. We can look at Him now through the gospels and see what was then veiled in flesh. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last.......

No. You made your point....I am letting it stand. Jesus made it to the second wrung on the way to sin....but never quite took the bait....and you used the passover dinner before His suffering for us, to illustrate your understanding of Jesus nature to occasionally be drawn away by His own over desire. That is your understanding of Jesus. Jesus was tempted with the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life when He was tempted...lead by the Holy Spirit for God's sovereign purpose. Those are all the things in the world. All the ways we are tempted. God's holy character...is revealed in Jesus...He never sinned. It is there if you look for it. But, I guess you have a different understanding of the Lord being drawn away by His own desire. I thought He always desired to do His Father's will including the passover supper.

Someone should tell God then....because he really needs to renew his mind.

I wrote out a response, but I am deleting it...Jesus was occasionally drawn away with over desire....and you use the passover meal before He suffered as an example. As if somehow this could lead to a sin? Okay. As long as you are not ascribing a motive to Jesus by reading a greek word, and as long as you are not reading into it at all. Couldn't be He earnestly or passionately desired...and if He did..this is bad? It sure shoots the whole "I have come to do my fathers will" right out of the water. What were His other sinful inclinations or over desires? Which of you convicts me of sin....and no man dared answer Him So, in other words....in answer to my question.....you think Jesus did have a sin nature.

Well, when you are tempted with evil.....what should your response be? Now, things can come at you....but, you won't be tempted to DO them. Someone can offer you a bag of heroin....that is being tempted with an evil...clearly your response would not be to take it and run. Why? Because of who you are...right? God is tempted all the time by man...the children in the wilderness for example...but, God can't be tempted because He is good....there is no bad in Him.....it doesn't mean people or Satan don't try.....Satan accuses people before God all the time. To tempt Him. Provoke Him. Because God is Holy and perfect....He can't be tempted.....evil doesn't tempt Him....He as no sinful inclination. No desire for evil. Did Jesus?

Yes, but doesn't the first part of Romans do a pretty good job in laying out the case that all men are sinners? Wouldn't that condemn us already? No one seeks God? That is a judgment and a sentence passed already.....Romans is....Righteousness denied....Righteousness supplied...and Righteousness applied. Now, I may be reading you wrong.....but, there is no other righteousness than what God Himself supplies....right? And that is through the atoning work of Christ? This also includes our righteous deeds.(Filthy rags) We are condemned already...we are under the condemnation of sin. That is where righteousness supplied comes in. When Paul is speaking of God judging according to works.....do you think that means whether someone merits salvation according to their works? Or am I confused? I don't want to jump to conclusions. Or are you saying....works which come from obedience....which comes from genuine faith....given by God, that will be judged? --------------------------------------

I think pushing people towards suicidal thoughts should be enough of a shock to wake up any good person. Just that it has happened before should be enough to cause people to question what they are involved in. . .it gets to a point where it is pretty ridiculous. There are woman who were actually intentionally "gaslighted" or made to think they were crazy or possessed because they resisted advances of leaders. If all this isn't evil...I don't know what is. Sure confuses my definition of good.

You are surely not the only one who has gone through this.....I am sure others have faced the same thoughts. Sadly, some have acted on them. I am so very glad you are here... happy being a fairly new mama! How wonderful. :) :) Your post should do it for all current TWI. There is no more excuse. No more rationalization to be made. No more blaming the "adversary"or the victim. Dead hearts do this to fellow human beings.....not loving, warm, caring, and alive hearts. They have no business speaking for God.....none. Really, I don't care what kind of new and gentle spin they put on their beliefs.....it is still a denial of God, who gives life, and all He is.....and it still robs people of their humanity. Over the top? I don't think so. Being involved in TWI has actually cost people their lives.....what a legacy.

Don't quote me or anything......but, I do believe in order to be obedient to God.....you need to fear or respect Him. Meaning reverence and awe of a holy God. It also means, no adultery, lying, cheating, stealing, greed, lust, pride, scripture manipulation, or covering up sin. Now, I am only guessing here.....but, waiting for a definitive answer on what constitutes sin, from an ungodly anti-Christ cult....is not going to put one in the center of God's anything. Call me crazy, but adhering to a skewed health and wealth gospel taken to the most godless extreme, coupled with a "Me" centered hermeneutic is just like begging to be outside God's will.

I wonder why it is necessary that all who will believe concludes before God can act? The gospel is to be preached every where....but, is there a understanding I am missing? During the tribulation period people believe. . . .I could be missing a point. The gospel will still be heard after the saints are gathered, right? Even angels can preach the gospel? Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. (take note TWI) Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. The time of tribulation where judgment is poured out is STILL a time for God's mercy.....people will still be brought to repentance. That is great mercy. They may die....but, Jesus has overcome death. What I don't quite understand is why we think God would spare us from the tribulation? He never has. Just thinking out loud. We are spared from the wrath to come......what wrath? God's final judgment? Or, the tribulation period which still reflects God's mercy? Why would God spare one generation for 7 years?.....Remember, there are Christians suffering horrible persecution, tribulation, and martyrdom....right now. Christians under Nero were burned as garden lamps for his parties. Christians have never been spared tribulation. John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." Simply things I am really beginning to wonder about.

The new ESV study bible says this about those saints who were raised...and it is important to remember(remind your friend next time this comes up :) )....that Matthew sometimes stays on topic....and is not necessarily chronologically arranged...... "saints who had fallen asleep. Probably pious OT figures and godly intertestamental Jews, reembodied to witness to the new order of things that was now in the process of dawning. This shows that the resurrection of people who died looking forward to the Messiah depends on Christ's actual death and resurrection, just as does the future resurrection of Jesus' disciples today. coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city. Matthew apparently jumps ahead here (treating materials topically, as he often does) and begins to speak of events that would happen after the resurrection. The wording suggests that these saints were not merely brought back to life (like Lazarus; John 11:44) but were "raised" (Matt. 27:52) with new, resurrection bodies, a foretaste of what would happen to all believers at Christ's return. No other historical information about this event has been found, but it is natural to suppose that if they had resurrection bodies, they would not have died again. They may have been taken up to heaven at or after Jesus' ascension......" We just don't know a great deal about them. . . .our focus is not really drawn to that event....but, instead to who and what caused it to happen....so, it kind of begins and ends right there. We don't really know a lot about that part of what happened. I was just playing with the reading of 1 Corinthians 15:23......One resurrection.....3 different timings.....Christ .....then the first fruits...those who believed in His coming (OT saints)Makes that verse about who those holy people were, at least fit......Next, we that are His at His return......and then the tribulation saints. It is still part of one resurrection of the Just...and it fits with the harvest analogy. I am not sold out to that......Just thinking out loud. :) You should hear me talk to myself!!

I get that! If we look at the gospels like a photograph.....searching out the details for perfection we probably will miss the bigger picture. Are they written in exact chronological order? Are they meant to be? What is their purpose? Is some of it written in light of theology? Why four? Is an ancient historiography or biography written differently than one of post-enlightenment ...those of which we are most familiar? The point is....they say the veil was torn. Luke is written more like a hellenistic historiography. Matthew and Mark....more like ancient biographies....there are limitations to these ancient genres....they are not written to be read in view of mathematical precision....it isn't the baseball box scores. :) Go Sox... What is interesting to note, is a few verses later in Matthew....the centurion, who had mocked Jesus.....fell down and said...."Truly this was the Son of God" quick and dramatic conversion....right?......he went from taking pleasure in mocking to falling down and confessing....What happened? What did he see? Just then the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks were split apart. And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised.(Now there is something to consider in light of the resurrection!) The reason I even mentioned the curtain being torn from top to bottom......from heaven to earth......is to draw attention to the significance. The earth shook with the force of it....it was an event, bodies were raised....and that centurion was there to see it. --------------------------------------------------------- Something else makes me wonder? When a harvest was brought in.....Israel would offer the sheafs of the first fruits to the priest.....a promise of the greater harvest.....and then the gleaning. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Christ...the first fruits....then when He comes, those who belong to Him. All kinds of things to consider!! :) There is also the gleaning to keep in mind. Yikes!!All part of one resurrection with different timing maybe?

This caught my attention :) ......I am often curious about what jumps out at people from the scriptures.....for me too.....as it has changed dramatically over time. Why did that strike you? If you don't mind me asking. Actually, I wouldn't ask if I thought you would mind.

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Hey Rascal....long time! :) So good to read you. Well said sister.

We all still had to be redeemed.....purchased.....it had to be done whether we placed our faith in our redeemer before He came or after He was resurrected. The sacrifice isn't about us, but made for us. It is God's ....and it shows us His great mercy. God had to be satisfied, because God is holy and God is just.....Jesus died because God is merciful and love.....if it wasn't Him....it would have been all of mankind who bore God's wrath. If Christ is not raised...we are yet in sin and our faith is in vain. All of us who place our faith in Christ.... A good thing to remember I think,....at least for me.... is that God tore the veil.....from the top down(Matthew 27:51).....man could not tear it from the bottom up...God Himself did it. He redeemed us. :) This is a free down load book by John Piper on 50 reasons why Jesus came to die. Even if you don't agree with the theology.....the references are there as a jumping off point, .....at the very least, it gives us another way to begin considering the "whys". http://www.desiringg...us_Came_to_Die/ I copied the table of content in case you are interested in looking at the reasons Jesus had to die. 1 To Absorb the Wrath of God 2 To Please His Heavenly Father 3 To Learn Obedience and Be Perfected 4 To Achieve His Own Resurrection from the Dead 5 To Show the Wealth of God's Love and Grace for Sinners 6 To Show His Own Love for Us 7 To Cancel the Legal Demands of the Law Against Us 8 To Become a Ransom for Many 9 For the Forgiveness of Our Sins 10 To Provide the Basis for Our Justification 11 To Complete the Obedience That Becomes Our Righteousness 12 To Take Away Our Condemnation 13 To Abolish Circumcision and All Rituals as the Basis of Salvation 14 To Bring Us to Faith and Keep Us Faithful 15 To Make Us Holy, Blameless, and Perfect 16 To Give Us a Clear Conscience 17 To Obtain for Us All Things That Are Good for Us 18 To Heal Us from Moral and Physical Sickness 19 To Give Eternal Life to All Who Believe on Him 20 To Deliver Us from the Present Evil Age 21 To Reconcile Us to God 22 To Bring Us to God 23 So That We Might Belong to Him 24 To Give Us Confident Access to the Holiest Place 25 To Become for Us the Place Where We Meet God 26 To Bring the Old Testament Priesthood to an End and Become the Eternal High Priest 27 To Become a Sympathetic and Helpful Priest 28 To Free Us from the Futility of Our Ancestry 29 To Free Us from the Slavery of Sin 30 That We Might Die to Sin and Live to Righteousness 31 So That We Would Die to the Law and Bear Fruit for God 32 To Enable Us to Live for Christ and Not Ourselves 33 To Make His Cross the Ground of All Our Boasting 34 To Enable Us to Live by Faith in Him 35 To Give Marriage Its Deepest Meaning 36 To Create a People Passionate for Good Works 37 To Call Us to Follow His Example of Lowliness and Costly Love 38 To Create a Band of Crucified Followers 39 To Free Us from Bondage to the Fear of Death 40 So That We Would Be with Him Immediately After Death 41 To Secure Our Resurrection from the Dead 42 To Disarm the Rulers and Authorities 43 To Unleash the Power of God in the Gospel 44 To Destroy the Hostility Between Races 45 To Ransom People from Every Tribe and Language and People and Nation 46 To Gather All His Sheep from Around the World 47 To Rescue Us from Final Judgment 112 48 To Gain His Joy and Ours 49 So That He Would Be Crowned with Glory and Honor 50 To Show That the Worst Evil Is Meant by God for Good

Oh man, THAT made me laugh. :)

Thank you.