geisha779

It is the word, the word, and nothing but the word.....unless of course you need to get back to the basics.....then it is the "Blue book".

What did he think Paul was addressing with the Corinthians? Counterfeit!! They are very adept at explaining away those "uncomfortable" parts of scripture. It is a vague memory....thank goodness....but, I remember hearing somewhere that the "Jesus" of the church was really a devil spirit. Makes me queasy just to type it out. You have to do some serious double speak to say that without a lightening bolt to the back or with a straight face.

This conversation about being indebted....especially to God....reminded me of a teaching I heard once by John Piper....I found an excerpt on his site Desiring God. ----------------------------------------- "It can be a bad thing if we conceive of acting out of gratitude as returning favors, like when somebody invites you over for dinner and out of gratitude you feel the need to invite them over to dinner. If that's the way we're thinking about our relationship and obedience to God, it's bad. It's going to be legalistic and devastating. And it's going to dishonor God, because it says, "OK, God made a deposit in my life of some good and some kindness. Now, as I face the future and ponder what my motivation is for pleasing God or for doing good things that he commands, I must now do something good for him because of what he has done for me in the past." It's that structure of thought that I think is so dishonoring to God, because when I turn to do something good for God, when I turn to take another step in the path of obedience, I need to not say, "God helped me in the past; now I must do something for him in the future." Rather, I need to say, "God helped me in the past, and now I need his help for the very next moment of my life." We don't give God anything, according to Acts 17:25, nor is he served by human hands, uas though he needed anything, since he himself vgives to all mankind wlife and breath and everything. ........ but God gives us life and breath and everything. So when a person takes a step of obedience and thinks, "I am paying back to God what he has given to me," they're making a profound mistake. They're not paying anything back if they're living the way they should. They are depending on new grace to take that step, and therefore they go deeper in debt. That is why I sometimes call gratitude-based obedience "the debtor's ethic." You shouldn't think of obedience as a mortgage payment, trying to pay God back month by month until you get the debt paid off. Rather, we should think that obedience is going deeper in debt to God every moment, because it takes more grace to be obedient this afternoon than I had yesterday. So I get more and more from God. I go deeper and deeper into debt, and that's the best and happiest way to live. We will never get out of debt to grace. And so the thought of gratitude ethic as a kind of payback ethic is devastating to increasing the glory of God's grace in our lives. We go deeper into debt in grace, not pay it off. So the greatest Christian is the one who reaches the finish line with the most debt to God? Exactly, the most conscious debt to God. I want to say "conscious" to emphasize that it is right to be dependent on God moment by moment. And if we're dependent on God moment by moment to supply grace and ability and everything we need spiritually, emotionally, and materially, then we'll get out of our head once and for all the notion that we will ever get beyond radical total dependence on him so as to assume a position of payback."

I love the Indigo Girls! <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I reread this thread and it reminded me of this from RC Sproul... I think I have posted it before...but, maybe not. There are many ways to look at things and sometimes it helps to see "another" way of explanation. Take it for what you want....or not...the thread simply brought it to mind. :) <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

What is this fascination with death? Death is the enemy....good news is that Jesus overcame death. Take it or leave it I guess.

Then, she should have her "floss chart" proudly displayed. "Floss chart" that kills me...are there gold stars involved? My kids used to get gold stars for good performance.....TWI, full of adults singing kiddie songs, sitting cross legged on the floor around the teacher.......having floss charts and curfews....potty breaks, restricted television and movie viewing....I am sensing a theme here. :)

Despite your training :) ...if you met me...you might not fully comprehend or understand me....but, does that mean you can't know and love me? Do you have to know me completely before we can be friends? I am a fairly complex creature...multi-faceted. God is a personal God. He is involved with us on a personal level. An intelligent creator, a personal savior, and someone who will help us understand who He is......The more we seek Him...the more we see Him...the more we get to know Him. The goal of the knowledge of God is not for intellectual edification, but an awareness of His glory and power. Exactly what Isaiah speaks to...what he went through. . it is also what Paul is speaking to in Romans 11:33-36. 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. At first glance it seems hopeless...that we can never comprehend....but, look at how Paul closes that out....to Him be the glory. I can behold beautiful things....complex beauty in this universe and I may never understand exactly how they work....but, I can be satisfied in beholding their beauty and take enjoyment in them...pleasure in them. . . I can see and know them.... Philippians 3:10 Paul's ultimate goal is .... [My goal] is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead. He speaking about being identified with Him....Paul's hope, and the ultimate hope of mankind is(that there is more than us). Jesus is that more....that explanation....that hope. We identify with Him. Jesus, who was fully a man....came to declare the Father...to make Him known. God spoke through Jesus Christ to us....you see Jesus...you see the Father....seems to me that Jesus is a good place to start in knowing God. But, His DNA is not going to satisfy us in knowing Him. :)

I get such a kick out of what you come up with..... funny because sadly, it is true....and just where IS her chart? LOL Excellent! You crack me up.

Whenever someone types SIT out....that Hawaiian Christmas song goes through my head....Mele Kalikimaka. .....every time.

Wow....Couldn't tell you were in TWI...holding Jesus up as an example and yet still being insulting? Jesus is not a weapon to use for insult or make your own personal point. Be nice.

What really is the difference between TWI's ABS and a Protection Racket? A protection racket is an extortion scheme whereby a criminal group or individual coerces other less powerful entities to pay money, allegedly for protection services against external threats (usually violence or property damage, and sometimes perpetrated by the racketeers themselves). In some cases, the "protection" is little more than extortion, with no real service rendered unto the victim.. . . . http://en.wikipedia....otection_racket I guess the difference is God won't spit in our direction for under ten percent. I don't know how much the Mob gets for protection. No wonder they have a hefty sum...fear is a powerful motivator in manipulative hands.

I guess you put me in my place Jeff...well done!

Apparently, they "believed" to arrive in one piece.....me, I don't want to "wing" it on a plane that should be grounded...but flies anyway :)

I rode on the plane with a drunk leering HA...yeah...good times, good times.... It was not long after that I learned it was a flying bag of bolts...and a big old crap-shoot in reaching your destination.....

While I appreciate the condescension Steve, concerning a simplistic Christian understanding of God.......I would encourage you to take another look at 1 Corinthians from the beginning....taking special note of how the Apostle treats the Lord Jesus as Yahweh....yet still distinguishing Him from the Father. For example, a Christian is someone who "together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"..............."And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved"...Joel 2:32 There are stunning examples leading up to 8:6 Also consider the language Paul uses in reference to Jesus...the Lord of glory...that is specific language reserved for Yahweh. By the time we get to to 1 Corinthians 8:6, we have already seen Paul putting the Father and the Lord side by side, yet distinguished from one another, although both are being attributed functions of deity in creation, this actually echoes the shema. There is a distinction in function......but, maybe it really is important who we confess when we say Jesus is Lord. I think the trinity does a rather good job in summing it all up. Take another look at Deut 6:4 if interested.....and when you read 1 Corinthians...consider it in light of something unfolding to you...or a revelation of God. You might be surprised by what you see. Corinthians 8:6 may look differently to you...who knows! What I also think is fairly important to remember....is that the Jews in large part rejected Jesus....but, God is revealed to us in Jesus. He is the image of God.....Immanuel, God is with us.....maybe....rejecting something based on what you think is a Jewish understanding....might not be the wisest course of action. "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." Similarly in Ephesians...the things which I declined to articulate to you..... Ephesians1: 3-14 describe God's plan for salvation past, present, future....election, redemption and inheritance.....but also they emphasize the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit....all with distinct functions in salvation.....yet working as one for the ultimate purpose.....that the glory goes to God. Either way...I would lovingly encourage you to take a look at what you are saying about the Lord....and the Holy Spirit in light of God's ultimate goal...which is not us BTW.....but, His glory....it can't be any other way.....because of who He is......but, we too want this because in it we find our peace and satisfaction. We are made to worship Him.

Not to get all doctrinal here or anything....but, I also "believe" it wrongly puts the onus on the individual instead of God. People operating God by laws.....and not living a real life by faith. Apparently operating Satan by negative confession too. Genuine faith is tested and we are tried, but it is not resolved by one's ability to "believe" their way out of it.....but to endure through it. Even then, the endurance is a God given ability. One of our favorite catch verses or rallying cries in TWI was Romans 8:37 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors.." The Greek word for "in" means blah blah blah....pretty much means"in".....but, what I wonder is why we never really looked at what that verse was saying in context. Trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Doesn't mean these things won't HAPPEN...but when they do, even they can't separate us from the love of God. Jesus said....in this life we are gonna have troubles.....clear enough I think. He also said...in Luke 14:28 "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? He made the cost of discipleship as high possible.....and told people...take an inventory before deciding to follow Him....When He talks about bearing our cross..or even losing our lives for HIS sake it is the second most repeated command in the gospels besides Follow ME. Notice He began pointing us to the cross, even at the height of His popularity and way before He Himself was crucified? We made a commitment to a man....simply the wrong man.....so, no wonder we didn't understand trouble.....the man we followed was all about your best life now. Sadly, best life for him was about, sin, sex, profanity, drunkeness, debauchery, and a prideful, in your face, fist pumping, blatant denial of Jesus Christ.... What amazes me is that he did all this...... while leading us in a chorus of My Jesus I Love Thee.

I didn't see her post that way either...but, I actually WAS disparaging TWI for their comment about devil spirit infested minds because people believe the dead are alive......seems sad.

Yeah...really horrible to believe eternal life means eternal life.....and we belong to God always...to have some hope. What an empty, cold, faithless,(did I say empty?) and hopeless gospel they cleave to. ..

Since we are blaming God for all the evil in the world...it only seems fitting we then credit and praise Him for all the beauty and good....

It wouldn't mean much to you Steve. :( It is too far removed from your theology. I might even have to use the T word. Yep, sure of it. But, if it helps.....I do believe that God, through the Holy Spirit, applies all His redemptive power in the lives of His own as guarantee and down payment....until......

Steve, Christians don't grope around in the dark for God....they learn about Him from His own self-disclosure. I am not totally oblivious to what you are saying....I am simply trying to suggest another understanding. Remember...the ultimate goal of exegesis is not to extrapolate, even to interpret, and surely not to wrap things up in neat little theological bow.....but, it is to transform. What do you mean by "The gift of holy Spirit that was first poured out on the day of Pentecost is not THE Spirit of resurrection life"? The Holy Spirit....is just that....The Holy Spirit. He has many ministries and functions.....He empowers(exodus 31:2,3), fills(Ephesians 5:18), guarantees(Ephesians1:14), guards(2nd Timothy 1:14), helps(John 14,15,16), comforts, illuminates(1Corinthians 2:10), indwells(1Corinthians 3:16), intercedes,(Romans 8:26, 27) produces fruit, (Galatians 5:22) Convicts of sin(Genesis 6:3, John 16:8-10), sanctifies or makes holy,(2nd Thess 2:13) seals, (2nd Corinthians 1:22)teaches,(1John 2:20) He is the source of POWER, fellowship, unity, and freedom. He is personal...just as are the Father and Son...He has intelligence (1 Cor.2:10-11).emotions (Eph.4:30 ) will (1 Cor.2:11). "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly to your ancestors through the prophet Isaiah Acts 28:25....He is God. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. Who is the life giving spirit in Christ? The Holy Spirit. We are set free from sin and death. The Holy Spirit.. is so clearly articulated in the OT.....and Pentecost was the filling, indwelling...or baptism of the Holy Spirit.......the beginning of the church, a distinction in ministry, ....He now dwells in us. It is the Holy Spirit who points us to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Why...is the Holy Spirit who indwells a believer....not the same Spirit who raised Jesus? What do you believe you are indwelt by? Some break away baby piece of God? Your own Holy Spirit? It is the same Spirit who works all in all.....Christ is all in all....the Father is all in all. What more do you think there is? It is the token, the promise, the seal......the earnest of our inheritance. It is there. When we see Him... Do you think because God spoke to Ezekiel about raising up Israel and pouring out His Spirit.....we too are waiting for the Holy Spirit? We are raised....seated....purchased......sealed. What if.....Ezekiel is speaking specifically to Israel as a people....community.....nation...the context is judging nations.....a new order....God will bring life to Israel...reunite Judah and Israel. National restoration. In the future...the Lord will bless His people....send the Holy Spirit. God will judge the nations by Israel....God will be glorified to the nations by Israel... He(the Holy Spirit) points, illuminates, enlightens, and glorifies Jesus Christ....you cannot know Jesus without the Holy Spirit. As the head goes...so goes the people. And they will know...I am their God. You and I already know He is our God....we know Jesus is Lord....and this we know by the Holy Spirit which indwells us...maybe, what we are waiting for and seeing in part is His glory...which we cannot fully comprehend or be fully in the presence of in our current form. Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. His reflected glory...is our glorification. Romans 8 And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created. Christ is the glory of God.... For God, who said "Let light shine out of darkness," is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ. Among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God. He (The Holy Spirit)will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. As for being holy now....we are supposed to be. We are being sanctified. Set apart as a holy people. It is not our own holiness. . . . but His if we belong to Him. These things run so deep...they are transforming right now.....we see glimpses of God's glory now....we know our God and Savior right now.....but, we only see God in part now....can you just imagine? What a hope... It is the same Holy Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead....that indwells us now.....we have eternal life now....and when He comes.....our mortal bodies will be changed. We have that promise....everything in its own time. Even if our mortal flesh dies.....we go to be with the Lord....in rest....and wait. God is able...God is faithful. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. You are talking about animation......scripture speaks of transformation. There is a difference.

Yeah...that made it ALL worthwhile! HA! I also got a fancy tee-shirt for wasting an entire year of my youth living with 3 complete strangers, no money and in a cockroach infested apartment. That really took the sting out there too.... :)

Sometimes I think we just got caught up in these "leaders" unresolved life and childhood issues....VP with his father, his church, his proclivities for adultery.....his ego issues and his personal objectifying of women and people in general. LCM with his rampant fear of homosexuality and homosexuals....possibly being married off to one by fiat. . . .his athletic ability.... his use of profanity.....his insecurity.....all of their personal issues....wrapped and packaged with scripture....to justify their manner of dealing or not dealing with life. It was usually the same more locally....what ever pressing personal inclination or coping strategy some name tag had.....became ours in some form or manner. As long as scripture could be twisted to justify it. Sitting at the bottom...it just became too much legalism to keep up with....at the top...probably just more focal and intense.

Probably for the best... I didn't "get" it either....I kept waiting for that super hush-hush(don't tell ) secret knowledge......all I remember was lots of Illuminati talk and that the country fell to pieces the year the PFAL was filmed because the devil was angry. A Crack in Time....something like that....tell me these guys were not certifiable.