geisha779

Oh, you want to derail this thread too?

Well, I think Chockfull still has a snootfull to say about me from his position as authority on what I should or should not think, but here, I will give it a go dmiller. For you. It sounds like Jim Doop was still a part of TWI? Running classes and a graduate of VP's WC? Is that true at all? It also sounds like he got caught up in running a section of TWI.....was it the same class that I took? I took PFAL on audio....and eventually video. Was he leading people into that doctrine? I know a few people from some early Corps and I must say...they are lovely people. But, does that make them any less tricked than the rest of us? Any less having been in a cult? It sounds like Jim Doop was lucky VP booted him early. I hope he found a good home like Calvary Chapel or the Vineyard......one of the good things that came out of the Jesus Movement. Unlike TWI. I think I read somewhere that Lonnie Frisbee made it to session 3 of PFAL and walked out.....do you know anything about that? Why? I have thoughts on that but, I wonder if anyone knows why? Do we know why Jim Doop stayed? http://www.lonniefrisbee.com/

dmiller, I never knew him. I am probably a bit younger than you...... it was before my time in twi. It is great that people liked him. But, if you want me to form my opinion, based on what others say.....I can't and won't do that for you. Why would you ask me to? It doesn't mean I can't say.....he sounds like a nice guy. It sounds like people loved him. That is the best I have for you. :( Really, why does it matter what I think of him? Especially since I never knew him. I am sorry your friend is gone, it sounds like you loved him.....and I hope you cherish your memories of someone so important to you.

For you? Anything! And hey, I did take the heat off from Rascal! :) How's this Waysider? Sounds like people really loved him. That Sunesis thinks highly of him on this thread speaks to me....as I know her a bit and value her opinion. Work for you? There, I have a clue.

http://www.pinebrook...rg/default.aspx Pinebrook Camp Massachusetts Hope the link works. We are very close to this camp and the people who run it, so if it is an option and we can help....just PM me. :)

Waysider, We all believed at one time VP was something special...nine pages dedicated to him? I can point you to a FB page with comment after comment about how wonderful VP was.....should that give me a clue about him? I didn't know him.....I did see a picture of him with his arm around JAL (I think) and it was recent as in......a few years or so.....that doesn't do much for me.....but, sounds like he was a nice guy. I didn't question his motives...but then again....I NEVER knew him. I responded to the church issue...and gee it has been fun.

Both my kids went to a Christian Camp here(close to Mstar) every summer and my son still goes and works the camps. How far does he want to travel? How old is he? Does he like contemporary Christian music? My son made a fun promo with some well known artists he knows. The kids love it. It is a Christian camp, trinitarian I guess, but they don't run around talking about that....so it might be okay. If I can help let me know. It was one of the best thing I did for my kids growing up.... <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

This one too is dedicated to Jeff S who once posted here and is missed. He will "get" it. :) <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV4BBmjnzM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV4BBmjnzM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV4BBmjnzM&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

So much for this "I am not attacking you personally. All in all I believe you are a wonderful person, very devoted, very giving, and in many ways a good Christian example." I knew when I read that it was a line. Narrow mindedness? All this response to me...the I don't "get" it and the "stop it" is all because I don't conform to the way you think I should believe. I have an opinion. You don't like it. I don't really care. Oh, and for the record...I never met Jim Doop and didn't mention him in my posts. If he was genuine or full of it...I don't have a clue. And Chockfull....sorry to disrupt your "church" here. Asking me to leave...is that like Mark and Avoid?

I don't think it should weigh you down Katie. I think the reason for those verses is the temptation of not needing God when we have plenty. But, God is able to prepare people's heart for wealth and to be able to handle it. It sounds, from your posts, like you do love and need the Lord. It sounds like you do serve Him with what He has blessed you with. Wealth isn't always a blessing. Just look at people who have no need of God because they have all they could ever want. But, I really don't think that is the case with everyone....they just recognize their need for Him in other ways.... There is nothing wrong with enjoying the good things God has given you.....seems to me you are someone who can handle it.

Do you really believe that my wanting ex-cultists who have been so lead astray about Christianity,( that about the only thing recognizable is the name Jesus)...........to find a church home with a good overseer, some accountabilty, and a sweet fellowship with genuine loving Christians.....around sound doctrine.... is something I have to get right with the Lord? Do you really believe the Lord is leading you away from this? Where do you think we find these things? TWI fellowships? Offshoots? Offshoots of other cults? On the fringe of Christianity looking in seeking to redefine it? No, we find it in churches....and yes...Christ IS preached there...just not the same one believed on by the cults. The gospel is taught there...just not the same gospel some here believe....and YES the Holy Spirit is there working in Christians....they are just not operating Him because it is as He the Spirit wills...and it is not as we wield Him. Please don't tell me what I do and do not know.....because I do actually know who I place my faith in.....and I do know what I can and cannot share fully with people here. I am much more aware of it than you. If I were to try and have a discussion about how we love the Holy Spirit because of that gentle and meek way He deals with us. How our heart skips a beat in His presence and we are filled with worship and praise.....or how the symbol of the dove speaks to us of His nature and person.....melts our hearts.....how He is with us, comforts and teaches us.....I can PROMISE you I would end up in a debate about pronouns. That is not sharing a faith! That is seeking to redefine it. If I were to say ....BTW you and I individually are not "a Son of God".....we are a child of God ....it is collectively we are the Son's of God.....Jesus is THE Son of God.....someone would take umbrage and debate would ensue. Or if I said....Jesus became sin, became the thing God despises and God did turn away and pour out His wrath on Him who never sinned....because that is what we deserved....I know I would hear about it...because I have. Or that it was God Himself who saved us? Who did this for us? If I spoke of Jesus' eternal nature.....how He has always been....would we as Christians share that fully? How He emptied Himself? Could we praise and awe at how God interacts within Himself diverse as 3 yet unified as one? No. If I said ...yeah...God sometimes allows bad things to happen, because it is sometimes the only way we learn......watch out! 15 pages of drama. Why? Because evoking the name Jesus and quoting scripture doesn't mean we all believe the same thing about Him. What we believe about Jesus, The Holy Spirit...The Father...what scripture says.....it does matter to our faith...it defines it. who we call on to save us...matters. So, I respect Tom's right to believe whatever he wants.....and yours for that matter....but, I don't think it is the same faith, whether you declare it to be or not.. ...I don't like that it isn't the same, but I am not going to pretend it is...and I still think a good Christian church home is a sound bet for all of us who call ourselves Christians...I stand by that. And to add this morning......why don't you take a look at your attitude Chockfull, all because I don't except everything everyone says as gospel truth....of course I don't believe Jesus is leading you away from the structure and consistent pastoral guidance set up in church. Why would I? Because you say so....I know that is not how the Lord works. Of course I don't believe what Tom says about his experience with the Holy Spirit.....spirits of "witchcraft" and genuine moves of God....should I? Is that how the Holy Spirit operates? Taking ONE Christian in a church setting and giving him revelation.....but, letting all the others just wander in that mess...including the overseer? That would mean Tom was more important to God than all those others there.....another little nugget....Christians don't get possessed. In general, do I have to just accept what people tell me about movements of God......when the things they say stand in opposition to who God is? You may not like who I believe God is.....but, that would make sense if we don't share the same faith. Isn't that the problem many of us had with churches and why we sought outside church? You feel fine making judgments about me....maybe because I refuse to conform to what you think and how you think. That I don't accept all things as true or genuine? Isn't it a bit ironic? Isn't that the problem you have with me? I don't "get" it? I get it....I just don't accept it. So, according to you....I am narrow minded.... Ever occur to you I might have something of value to impart even though it might be other than how you think I should believe? Isn't that what you expect me to do and see?

I really enjoyed this soapbox, it is something I personally relate to...and the difference between my prayer life now as opposed to what it was in TWI is similar to what you have described. Maybe, if there is a "key" to prayer, it is exactly what you have said.....an open heart. I don't think it is so much claiming the things of God, but believing that He is .....letting Him show us who He is....and knowing He is able. It isn't really about our needs IMO...but, about His will. Doesn't that come when we love Him....and know a tiny bit of His glory? We kinda of fade away in the face of God's majesty or see how short we fall and repent. There is peace in faith....because it is God and He is... and He is able....so, no matter what...I can trust Him....I know He is faithful and He proves time and again. I cringe a bit when I think of some of the things I "demanded" of God in TWI .... but, again, He is very patient and gracious!

Thomas, thanks for those songs....I love Casting Crowns and listen to them a lot.....I think this is my favorite and how I feel when I come before the Lord. Who Am I. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>You are right Waysider....gotta love Burt Bacharach...I love this one...Alfie <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hUhtLYhlhE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hUhtLYhlhE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hUhtLYhlhE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Yeah, I am not too keen on the idea of descending from giants and not being a human because I am missing a factor in my blood. Oddly, there are some dominant genetic traits that show up in a large number of RH negative people.....but, I think that may be coincidence or that the blood type was concentrated at one point in one geographical area....or that I was reading conspiracy and thought it was fact. More than likely the latter. I read some really bizarre theories after hearing that segment. That people with this missing factor are from the Nephilim bloodline....are not actually human.....are more likely to be abducted by aliens..LOL but, what did unerve me a bit was the blue eyed, blond, rarely get sick thing.....that's me. The above average intelligence was easy to dismiss in my case though. Really, I thought that was what teachmevp meant by the initial post....who knew there was more!!

Now Rascal is being called names? "Churchy" That is classic. I love it! Rascal, do you mind if I call you that now? Catchy....got a nice feel to it. I think you are absolutely right guys....maybe church really isn't the place for you.... you keep on practicing whatever faith it is, where you think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft, in a church where you know a genuine move of God in the pastor is taking place amidst that.....whatever faith that is....I am unfamiliar with it....but, if that is what you practice......I respect your right to do so. The name calling and insults might be OTT, but, we were defending the idea of Christians going to church after all...so, maybe that makes it okay. There Rascal...the heat is off from you.

Thanks sister...and I love you too. :)

Tom, Thanks for your "wee point", but I really don't think Christ was the ideal in TWI, an interpretation of the scriptures was.....that was my point. One the one hand I am reading that churches preach a watered down gospel....are not "spirit" filled or manifesting enough....and then I read the idea of accountability is unnerving....you figure out what I meant. What happened to speaking the truth in love? Nothing. It happens all the time among Christians. Why? Do you think something happened to it? The Holy Spirit is humble, and the reality of Him is often found in subtle more gentle things .... I am not sure He is grand and showy, but how He works is in a personal and meek manner. At least in my experience. His movements are not always immediately obvious. I really believe we understand things very differently. Take that for whatever you want or don't.....

Maybe that is why we set time aside every week to gather together and praise, worship, listen and learn...possibly? You know what Chockfull this really really hurt me...because you don't know me or what I do.....and you made this assumption by my defense of CHURCH!! Normally, my personal life is none of your business...but here, let me tell you what I have been doing for the last month or so.... Two times a week I go to someone's house who has liver cancer. My husband takes him to his chemo appointment and I stay at his house to clean. The first time he let me into the house I nearly threw up from the smell. It was wretched and filthy is not descript enough. What I do.... is clean up after his dog who doesn't get walked when I am not there because he is too weak to take him out. The dog uses the floor as a place to potty. I clean up mountains of dog poop and urine first thing...and that is so I can get to the piles of dishes and cans and bottles laying in the kitchen. Once I get the junk cleared away...I have the pleasure of cleaning up the food spills and getting rid of the rancid food laying around. Then I get down on my hands and knees and bleach his kitchen floor....the counters....clean the fridge....remove the trash and clean the bile from the walls. Once the kitchen is immaculate I move to the bathroom.... He had colon cancer first and has little control over his functions so I get to clean a toilet covered in runny, smelly human feces....then the walls, then the shower and then the floor..basically I have been wading in poop for the last month. I change a disgusting bed where the dog sleeps with him....scrub his floors and walls, paint, organize loads of mail unopened for two years....do all his laundry ...I take it home and buy the best detergent and in my "spare" time do his poop covered clothes. I use cheaper detergent on my clothes...I can't afford both. THEN, I make him meals so that he can eat....after buying his groceries...and paying for them. I have bought new curtains for his home....replaced bedding....replaced a good deal of pee soaked furniture and moved an actual truck load of trash from his house. I take his trash and recycling every week to my house...at my expense....three dollars a bag...and until this week when I finally got it under control....10 bags a week. This is also the first week the house no longer smells...trust me, that is a big deal. I have made his disgusting house into a home....so that he has a place to heal. He has no one else...I am it. This is a guy who is NOT a Christian....he is someone who got angry with me years ago over real estate and stopped speaking to me....and was very cruel to me. So he doesn't feel bad about the mess I clean up...I tell him I love doing it...I love a challenge....and that it is my pleasure. You know what...it is. I have two people living in my house...rent free...on me...because they got into finacial trouble and we want to help them get back on their feet.....they are two Christian kids who got in over their heads....and we know what it is like to need a hand. I cook and clean for them. Lucky me...can you guess which gifts the Lord blessed me with? I go to prisons and I visit with prisoners....I speak to people about the persecuted church.....and I am a wife and mom who works two jobs. I have two jobs yet no money to spend on myself...I buy my clothes at the salvation army or walmart.....I get my hair cut twice a year.....anything good I have was a gift or from a time when I actually gave a care about that stuff. I don't anymore...and somehow I manage to get by. Real enough for you? Oh wait did I mention my husband is disabled and can only work part-time? The money making falls to me? Then there is our 10 acres and 100 year old house to see to....I have to hire someone to mow....I have huge gardens and outbuilding which are falling down and I get to do most of it myself...a leaky roof that isn't getting fixed and a load of worries I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But, as long as you know all about me and can make such judgments.....

That is it exactly Rascal....sometimes it is good to be committed to something....and work out the differences in love and put in the effort. That is one way we grow in grace. We don't have to all be cookie cutter alike in church, but when we are connected to the vine instead of man or the ideal of a book....it is so much more personal. We are accountable to each other before the Lord. TWI took something and perverted it....what fellowship should really be....so I do understand why people would shy away. VP came from the church and he took what we are as a family of Christians...used all the right words....but twisted the meaning as a way of control and abuse. Things like accountability took on an insane meaning...or micro managing as Tom points out....but, as Christians we are accountable. VP just ruined what should be something we desire and made it something we want to avoid....he did it with most all of it. The ironic thing is....we got used to the intensity of it and it seems a catch-22 now.....churches don't do enough....are to enemic....but we don't want micro-managing or the intensity.....sometimes it seems it is a no win. People will never find a perfect church. There are none. That doesn't mean we, as Christians, don't need a fellowship or church. http://www.9marks.or...are-the-9marks/

Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "dress up" for anything. What an assumption about people. You don't need church? I am not the one sitting from a lofty perch raining blanket judgment down on the nameless, faceless of God's people by declaring them political and shallow.....especially without being there addressing the problems I say I see. Without using the gifts I claim to have to make a difference. Could have sworn I said I had a church and many, many, many Christians in my life....up close and personal too...as most of them are in my home at one time or another. So, how you get I don't interact is anyone's guess. I love it when someone pulls out the old beam in the eye when they hear something they don't like....but, if I hadn't been in TWI and had the same issues with church that are being discussed here...it might possibly be relevant....but I have HAD to pull that beam out of my eye....and now I see church differently. You can tell it to the Lord Chockful...tell Him how awful His church is....tell Him His people are not worthy of your presence....tell Him you don't need it and your attitude is justified because He didn't go to church...He did go to the Temple though....I simply made an observation.....tell Him how narrow minded I am because I pointed out meeting together, accountability, and having a fellowship of believers is important to our Christian walk...... How we are to esteem each other....and a church is where you find Christians meeting. We have pastors because people need pastoring....you and I included.....so we don't get taken so far afield....not all pastors are good pastors, but the ones I know are good pastors. They are out there....in churches ......because that is how it is set up. We have teachers because people need sound doctrine...... again, teachers teach in churches...in ministry. We go to a church to gather together and to be a part of a particular body of Christians for the purpose of learning together, helping one another, accountability, communion, fellowship and to have others who also love God to share our burdens with......oh the horror of it all. Bad Geisha for pointing this out. For wanting this for you....tell the Lord you don't like the way it is set up. Maybe you can start something else...like a small bible study that meets in the home and is set up like a tree...with twigs, branches, and a root. As far as China is concerned or a place like Entreia I am sure those still in prison for having a church, being a pastor, or simply being caught with a bible....will be glad to hear this is all over now.....except those who have been executed that is. You don't know what you are talking about....but, if you became involved in serving the persecuted CHURCH, as we call them....you might. Groups like VOM train people to go the CHURCHES to speak to CHRISTIANS about the plight of the persecuted CHURCH. CHURCHES have them come speak to their CONGREGATIONS so that the CHURCH here better might understand better what is happening to our BRETHREN in other parts of the world. So we might better serve them. Enamored of religion? No...but I do like church because it is made up of Christians and I am enamored of them. We are suppose to be. Not standing from the outside pointing fingers....there are other people who have that job.....it shouldn't come from those who say they belong to the same body.

I am RH negative....and while there are some questions about mutation and where exactly it came from....and I fit the profile for RH negative...blond hair, blue eyes...etc....and while it is pretty strange for a mother's body to attack a child of a positive blood type......I don't really believe we descended from "Watcher" angels...I think it is just a random mutation of some kind. The only reason I ever heard the angel theory before, is because I was listening to George Noory one night while driving home and someone called in...... :) I don't really understand a great deal about the genetics of it all...both my parents are a positive blood type.

I don't even know what this means. Again, I mean no disrespect but, it is really not about you....it is about God. As many as your heart can receive for what? To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with....what do you mean? If you are not even looking for a place....it doesn't sound like you are willing to receive anybody. We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means.....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together. Which to me implies that we can forsake it.

I guess it all depends on who you ask and what you are listening for...and I mean no disrespect, but maybe you should check out some place like Village church in Denton Texas....which grew so quickly they had to open separate campuses. Great Podcasts btw... :) and people from all over the world have come together to pray for a beloved Pastor who has a brain tumor. People have really united ....I am touched to be a part of it and to genuinely love this Pastor I have never met. People love to complain about church because there is no such thing as a perfect church...which makes sense...since a church is made up of people...and people are not perfect. I am just not sure why we would not be running to be with each other in family and fellowship? To be with those who love the Lord...in prayer and worship together? Church is where we congregate and we meet each other....for that purpose. Especially if we know so much...we should be out there sharing our gifts...because our gifts are not for ourselves but for the edification of the body. People in China risk death and imprisonment to hold church....Many places have laws against holding church, there are prisons are filled with people who have known how important is is to gather together anyway....I can't ever imagine taking it for granted. Just my thoughts.

It is not so much the artists themselves...but, the guys in the suits behind the scenes. . . . or something like that.

Well, you know I love hearing from you! :) So, if you get a chance I look forward to it. I will tell you though....I know many, many, many Christians from churches....my house is like Grand Central for young Christian 20 somethings....and you would most likely be blown away by what these kids understand and moreover....what they do. I am in awe of them. I actually found a niche post TWI...it took a long time and some inner-reflection on the "why's" of not being comfortable before I found a home. The people I know...I sometimes feel so unworthy of their friendship....they are amazing....I love the Christians I know...I respect them, admire them, and LEARN from them. So, I see a different side perhaps than those of you who don't have a church or desire one...or believe you need one. No church is perfect and some are a better fit than others, but church is where Christian often congregate together ......it is a community of believers....it is a family. To add: There are some really amazing Pastors and teachers as well..in churches!