geisha779

I thought the initial post in this thread was excellent. Well thought out, well presented, thought provoking, and especially interesting for those who may still have questions about good vs evil concerning VP. It is an opportunity to examine what he actually did as opposed to what some believe he taught (truth). There is a word for someone who preaches one thing and does another......and it is not misandry ....it is hypocrisy. Seems the topic has a life of its own.

I don't think we need scripture to look at the evidence and make a judgment about what kind of human being VP was..... Maybe just a somewhat working moral compass.....not too many leave this kind of destructive wake when they leave this earth. It is a baaaad thing to use and hurt others......to not change ones evil way.......seems pretty straight forward. Any good person will tell you that. . . . . no matter their faith. Heck....people are even writing books about their pain.. . . . . it is ALL going to come out.

Scripture is incredibly harsh about these men (and women). . . . the language is angry and the promised judgment is severe. . . . . and much of it really does read like a biography for Wierwille. Eyes full of adultery, seducers of the unstable, experts in greed, carousing in daylight, making merchandise of people, drunk, exploiting people with made up stories, covetous, teaching to tickle the ear, savaging the flock, indulging in the flesh, they despise authority, are arrogant, bold, they revile where they have no knowledge, and they deny the Lord Jesus Christ. They draw people to themselves. They lure people with enticements like "abundance"....and many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. They rise up in the church and come out of the church just like VP.......they can't stay there. They will be exposed. That is why they lure people away....not bring people into the church. So yeah, they have to defend these guys.....they are not a part of anything else. It is a separate faith based on the lies or false(different) doctrines of these men. It has nothing to do with Christ. That may seem harsh.....but scripture is pretty straight forward concerning what it was we all were involved in......it is not secret knowledge. The temptation to jump from one false teacher to another comes with the continual embrace of false doctrine which really can take a stranglehold. I am of Lynn, Geer, Hendricks.....pick your poison. The good news for those of us who want to continue in the Christian faith is that God is able to rescue us. To bring us back into the church. My opinion anyway.....since we are closing.....I felt like sharing it!

He was a cult leader who lead people away from Jesus Christ.....the absent Christ. Please....he taught you to read the bible for yourself? He programmed us to read the bible exactly how he wanted us to see it......not for ourselves. What do you think all those cross outs and margin notes and classes were for? The literal according to usage....the present truth....his revelations.....spare me....he spoon fed us a bunch of crap and not just once a week. We got a steady diet of twisted scriptures. Some people will never be able to read the bible again....great legacy. What a sad joke. Safe haven? Yeah, I really felt "safe" around many of the men in TWI (not)...and VP....he was famous for a good firm pat on your backside if you were not fast enough. Ask any half way attractive babe who caught his eye. He had people pimping for him. What a great Christian example huh? He showed porn to young vulnerable starry eyed kids who trusted him. He lead many people right away from salvation...... Sent out WOWs? He sent young hormonal men and woman to live together in close quarters for a year.. there is a good moral Christian example for you. What do you think was happening in many of those WOW families? He sent people out to sell his class and got others to lead people away from Jesus. From salvation. Why did TWI have rampant abortion?.....Why do you think he taught that it was okay with God? There are woman who are scarred for life because of that teaching! Not only did he steal others work....but he stole from really really bad teachers. Most of them have been refuted. And btw most Christians don't believe God makes people sick....but that he heals....they do however, understand that God is sovereign and not subject to our "believing". God gives us our faith....which is a gift! It is God's will not ours and God's will is that we may be presented blameless......and harmless.....faith is tested....trials refine us. You figure out what that means. VP embraced the word of faith movement.....threw in some prosperity gospel....and eventually denied the very Lord who bought him. VP was not a Christian man he was the antithesis of one.

Ewww! Are you trying to pin VP's adulterous and perverted sexual appetite on God? Wow ....... talk about rationalizing.

Wow, a thread where I am not the one in heated argument. Can't let that stand. johniam, You have mentioned the good you learned in TWI......but, I have to ask if you really have a respect for the scriptures? If you do, let them speak to you about what kind of man VP was......does Jesus say you can fleece the flock and face no judgment? If you think that these posts are angry.......you might not actually want to pick up the bible and look......the language used to describe VP and men like him who creep in and become blind guides is wrathful language littered with the severest judgment. It is final judgment reserved for God alone. We(Christians), on the other hand......are to leave them alone and be thankful for God's promise of judgment. Even in our worst wrathful state (Which no one here has displayed) we are not coming close to it. The thing about the wheat and the tares is.....they grow together and they are not all going to be discerned until harvest time. Sometimes they are really difficult to distinguish. VP isn't all that difficult to distinguish with a little hindsight. Very bad man. Not going to be holding hands at the return IMO.

I don't really have a horse in this race....I could care less what VP or PFAL has to say anymore.....but this and your other post has intrigued me. Sure, God wants us to be happy. Funny thing about that....joy....is not going to be complete or full unless it is in Him......would you agree? If we are seeking that happiness in the abundance of this life then we are not going to find the complete joy in Him. Make sense? Chasing our tail? Wouldn't a loving God, who declares that all creation is subject to futility, strip away that which hinders us from seeking Him? I would hope so.... Especially if we are seeking that material abundance. So, maybe if we really start to examine our faith.....we do see loving acts from God in lack of abundance. Do you understand what I am trying to say? Joy(happiness) is complete in Him. Creation is subject to futility......things can get in the way.......a loving God helps us find Him. The prosperity gospel .....which was around long before VP oddly marketed it in PFAL......dangles the carrot of fulfillment, abundance and wealth without ever delivering the reality. That is because the reality is Him. God wants us to feel good about ourselves? I am pretty sure Jesus said.... "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?" Do you ever wonder why VP didn't start the class with this verse? Or this one Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. It is because he was selling you something.....a dream....a goal.....Paul had the abundant life according to VP's standards.....BEFORE he met Christ. Paul's life went from being at the top of his game to being hungry, thirsty, beaten, shipwrecked, imprisoned and eventually executed. Do you think if Paul was in VP's congregation he might have looked at him and said "You need the abundant life buddy" Or is Jesus own example not sufficient? VP looked around his congregation and I believe what he actually saw.....was the work of the Lord in the lives of His people. Not always pretty, or pleasant, or easy. I think VP rejected God and embraced the prosperity gospel...which BTW is exactly what the serpent sold Eve.

Twins separated at birth... <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k18lq6mQvUM?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k18lq6mQvUM?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k18lq6mQvUM?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Amen! Love to you!!

Hey my sweet sister who inherited all the nice genes. :) and the prettier ones!! Yeah, I would avoid such a place and find a nice little church if that is what one is looking for. . . . . and it is not really hard to find a Christian who understands that we are the church(it is not secret knowledge).....not really a stretch to find a Christian church that is comprised of Christians. Even Mega churches just filled with Christians. The Benny Hinns and Creflo Dollars of the world.....and definitely the entire TBN channel ....... are wolves easy to spot. (Of course, we have the edge) But, I have yet to meet a church going Christian who believes the building where they meet or the structure or organization they populate is the complete church. Especially since so many pray for the persecuted church and other churches around the world. Who are these people who don't get it? Other than the obvious wolves .... who are the Pastors getting rich off their flock? Granted....I live in a rural area but I know most of the Pastors around here and not a one of them drives a Beamer. Now, if the Lord refines by fire....and fails to produce His intended work within His people......He is ineffectual. The Lord is not ineffectual. The sparrow does not fall without Him knowing about it. But, not everyone who says they are Christian......is a Christian. Do you honestly believe.....knowing all that you do about God......and placing all your faith in Him.......that one of His true servants would be using Him to make money? We serve from love, but also know enough about God not to dare do something like that....right? Religion is a big business...no doubt. I agree. But a Christian church, filled with Christians......is not. There is a pretty good litmus test for us....and that is...who gets the glory. Maybe, that is why we hear so much from the wolves about themselves? Jesus said He would build His church. I believe Him. I also believe that just because a group of Christians meet in a church and have some structure with an elder or some overseers.......Christians who organize.......it does not mean they don't understand who they are. Church is not the enemy, structure is not the enemy, and commitment to others within a church family is a good thing. We can afford to be a little discerning before we start church bashing .....we may just be lumping a whole bunch of things together that don't really belong together and ourselves missing the real beauty of the church. You know I think the world of you....so we can be honest and talk. You are one of the sweetest people around. And I know you love the saints. Hugs!! :)

Yeah...I wondered about some things listening to that clip too.....like, if the book is the only way to know Jesus....someone should tell those Christians in prison without the scriptures to read....to give it up and repudiate Jesus because they don't have the book and apparently the Lord has left them high and dry. Sometimes, that is all it takes to get sprung from a prison in this world. Recant your faith and convert. I have written to a few of these prisoners and their faith.....puts me to shame. I stub my toe and question God....they are often starved and beaten and they stand firm in a knowledge of the Lord....without the book. The HS has no way to work within someone's heart and life without the book? The people who share one tattered bible between several villages and may get to read it once or twice a year.....the ones who risk their lives to be Christian(Yeah it happens) I guess the Lord says...you don't have the book....shoo...go away....you can't know me? I think the round about point was........God is very limited without JAL to expound on the book. When JAL encouraged people to check out the videos....I really thought he was going to say (Like most others I hear) check it out.....don't take my word for it...make sure I am telling you the truth......but no, it was check out and listen to the flood of things I plan on putting all over the internet. Yuck. The other thing I wondered about was the cadence of his voice. Is that a TWI thing? At one point, did they get us all together and teach that odd inflection? Did I miss a meeting? It really started to grate and that was a short clip. Really, if Jesus came up and tapped JAL on the shoulder and introduced Himself....I don't think JAL would believe Him. He might try and get Jesus to listen to a youtube video or sign up for a class.....but know who He is? I really have my doubts.

I apologize in advance....and add a warning that this may cause some people flashbacks....but, I did think it was interesting in a creepy kind of way. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJzEZrx7_iI?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJzEZrx7_iI?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJzEZrx7_iI?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

I love this! Thanks! Maybe just your words....but they speak volumes. You also said "It may be a deliberate desire to use coded shorthand to initiate a desired response from those who heard it so many times over the years and who would now have those brain cells pinged by the familiar terminology, or just a general tendency to continue doing the familiar." I thought the same, but the response it generates in me is.....nausea....honest to goodness....it makes me sick to my stomach. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is just plain unnerving for me to even consider following that same path again....or that shallow system which to ME is a mixture of denial, rebellion and making the scriptures sing off key . It is a really scary thought though....getting sucked into that abyss again. I am STILL climbing out. I thought the letter was a joke. Someone kidding around. Shows you how far removed I am from that reality. Really? It is still going on? Wow.

I will have few bumper stickers made and mail them to you......you seem fond of bumper sticker Christianity. Even with my limited perspective, apparently created by the institutional environment I obviously must immerse myself in.....and the pity inducing state of my spiritual welfare and that of my "community".......because I don't take a stand alone verse and attach some vague metaphysical meaning to it which it was never meant to have........and the zig-zag.... yet razor sharp line of topic boundry which I have somehow crossed by trying to take make the point that..... the depth of this section of scripture actually reveals God's magnanimous nature in forgiveness.....even with all that against me.....I can discern that this conversation is a complete waste of my time. (How is that for a run-on sentence teach?) Well you get the idea - or not.

Mark, That is really lovely. . . very caring....and you are a true gentleman. :)

Simply put that Jesus is in the midst of those gathered in his name, period. That doesn't become the truth only in church discipline context. It IS the truth that Jesus was applying to church discipline because it is the truth. That is what you wrote...if you meant something else......my mistake. I simply am pointing out that what you wrote is not true. Anyone can meet in Jesus name....I really am not trying to play gotcha Tom....but you have to understand....there is a much deeper truth in these chapters. Jesus starts off with the humility of a child that all true believers must have....and then moves to the lost and found parables.....of which the verse in question is directly related . GOD'S ultimate goal is redemptive and restorative. Taking verse 16 out of the direct context of the parable of the lost sheep is missing the point....see where He moves next with forgiving 70 X 7, the debtor situation with the servants......and then closes with forgiveness. Taking that one verse and applying it to something it isn't being applied to may cause us to miss the whole point. It is not about fellowship among believers......but it is about God's huge forgiveness and our lack of understanding of it. About our lack of humility. It runs so deep. Don't even try to take it and make it fit elsewhere...because where it is and what it reveals about God's nature is so vast and beautiful......it doesn't need another context.

I am so sorry for what you endured. One thing they couldn't taint or touch is that you came through it one absolutely amazing and wonderful person!

The last time a similar topic came up regarding church....and I joined in the discussion......it virtually ended my participation in the forums. This topic can get ugly fast.....but, please, let me assure you it is not my intention to offend....simply to offer another perspective. Concerning the verses in Matthew about gathering in His name.....looking at the context I believe that this particular passage is referencing church discipline. It is not directly related to fellowship with other Christians. Just look at it for a moment. It is speaking about putting someone out of the church. . . . . but the instruction of two or more gathering in His name serves a particular function for those tasked with discipline. It is not something to be taken lightly. Church discipline is meant to be redemptive in nature. Just like the Lord is redemptive.... It is really just a product of lazy theology to take one verse and assume a doctrine from it. I am not saying that anyone here is doing that.......AT ALL. It is just that..... with this kind of logic, we could assume from Jesus teaching the Lord's prayer that we never have to ask in His name.... because he never mentions it. We can assume whole theologies on Baptism, marriage, communion....from pulling verses out of their context. I know I have done it. You simply cannot take a part of one verse and use it as the model for what fellowship is supposed to be. Can you teach salvation by only using John 3:16 and not 17 or 18? No, and using one simple verse to dis church or dismiss it is really not cool. Why not just say "I don't like church". Even if I gave you several verses on how you should love the church, and yes, that includes most of those little or mega churches out there........it is not going to change some peoples minds. If you don't like it....you don't like it. Don't invoke God or the Body of Christ to justify it. Let me just mention that we all had little churches in our homes....were they perfect? No, and no church is perfect. That being said.....concerning the book.....Tom said something rather profound and something I have been thinking while watching this topic. He said: One surprise was that I saw that TWI incorporated was sooo just another church. The parallels were impossible to escape, the identity easily seen. It was very freeing in an ultimate sort of way. Well, yes, but the difference is.....the author made up his pastor and church.....he took the nastiest caricature he could create.......the book is fiction. The author took stereotyping quite seriously. It may have been loosely autobiographical....but it is one mans opinion based on an experience with an abusive church. VP and TWI were real. VP wasn't a caricature, but someone we all knew once as the MOG. We lived it.....so of course it is going to be relevant for us....yet, TWI does not give us an accurate portrayal of church does it? No....and neither does a stereo-typed fictitious abusive church. The book doesn't really give us a viable alternative IMO. We should be sharing others burdens and journey. We should be walking along side others. But, does that wandering replace the need for a church home? For a consistent fellowship? For a close Christian family? Sure if you are in TWI or an abusive church....RUN....but don't take the church model we have and sweepingly make assumptions about it based on a bad experience. At least I don't think it is a good idea.

So glad to have found you Janice! I really look forward to hearing about your ministry work. See you on FB.

Wouldn't be the first time someone called me a name. :) Please...let's you and I keep in touch. . . . a sister in the Lord is a very wonderful thing!

I am a total Gleek. :) Michelle what's her face is amazing, but it is the guy who plays Will Schuester that usually catches my attention! A lot. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbZcYy6AAGg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbZcYy6AAGg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbZcYy6AAGg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

and this one..... <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkfAjWyOwg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkfAjWyOwg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkfAjWyOwg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Kind of an "Oldie" according to my kids, but I LOVE this one by Nelly. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtSDWq6HsJE?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtSDWq6HsJE?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtSDWq6HsJE?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>