geisha779

I got caught up watching their videos on you tube...and then their younger siblings....they are so cute! Thanks for sharing that!!

I don't think you can ignore this one Johniam....it is about as straight forward as it gets.....it is right-on....but, it begs the question......what is it God likes and dislikes? That is a question you need to answer for yourself. See how WordWolf has no problem calling an evil hypocrite...an evil hypocrite. I am pretty sure that is because he is secure in his understanding of just what is evil and also what is good. That is a freeing place to be.

Scripture...... lays out in a crystal clear fashion what a minister (MOG)should be....it doesn't get more specific than Timothy, Titus, 1st Peter, and Jude. Not to mention Jesus' own words in the gospels. Paul warnings to the Corinthians....and also in Galatians. You just don't want to hear it. As far as the faith..... PFAL lead us away from......it is the Christian faith we were lead away from. It is the Christian faith you have such disdain for....and as plain and as simply as I can put it. VP taught you another gospel. It is not a saving gospel. It is clearly evident you still adhere to it .....evident by your lack of knowledge and understanding about what happened on the cross. The cross BTW which we eschewed. ...the cross we tore down from a Chapel. People cheered as that cross was torn down. That speaks volumes about what we were. We mocked the cross. God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. I care about you. I care about what happened in TWI. What I can no longer appreciate is your attitude.......why you cannot just consider the scriptures with us for a moment. The way you post......it sounds like anyone other than those who still follow TWI dogma.....are enemies...... unenlightened. Although, it seems most here understand what was taught in PFAL far better than you do. You do speak in generalities. Remember?.....At one time..... we were all there...we had the same mindset....the same dogmatic beliefs. But, we were the ones in an anti-Christian cult. We were the ones lead astray. We were the ones who did not understand and we were the ones who believed things scripture does not support. .....we don't have to stay there.......that is the truth.

Gee, I have never heard that one before. Huh, well, maybe I have and used it myself when Christians tried to share the gospel with me. And sure, that lengthy post simply said God is a child abuser...yep, that is what it was all about. What does it say after it says God is light and in Him is no darkness at all? It tells us what is required to cleanse us from all sin. God required His blood......is that not descriptive enough for you to understand God's wrath toward sin? God treated Jesus as if He was guilty of all sin ever committed though He never sinned. God set the standards....only He knows what would completely satisfy Him. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God could have chosen any way to do it. If we can stop and just think for a second....without PFAL filters....maybe, we can understand that a HOLY God can be light and have wrath towards sin. He is just and it is just and right to abhor evil. What part of light don't you understand? It would have been an abusive thing if Jesus had not first willingly taken on the sins of the world. However, once He did that.....what did He become? Accursed for the sin He bore. Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Do you remember what Jesus said to Peter after Jesus had painstakingly explained the manner in which He would die? He said, Get thee behind me Satan you savor the things of men, not of God. Why? Because as incredible as it sounds...this was God's deliberate plan. Peter didn't understand. What happened on that cross is too amazing to fathom. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. The devil didn't do that GOD did. Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin....... Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me? What is the proper response to sin? What is Gods response to sin? His response is the right one. God is angry with the wicked everyday......God hates sin....but that hate is JUST it is RIGHT and it is not darkness. God is too pure to look on evil....you really don't know any of this about God? That He is so holy, the scriptures say He is holy, holy, holy. God is rightly wrathful towards sin....Jesus became sin......Jesus took what was due us....the full wrath of God......why wrath? Because we are sinners. Jesus took it upon Himself. God had to be satisfied. If Jesus didn't absorb the full wrath of God....we are not saved. Saved from what? What do the scriptures tell us we are saved from? Could it be the wrath to come? Wrath towards what? The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. We are talking about God...not some genie in the sky. A holy, just right, and loving God who provided the sacrifice, who spent His anger, and who showed us His love. The gospel is amazing and what happened on that cross was an intersection of mercy and wrath...justice and grace. How can you not know this?

I kinda liked this one.... to quote T-Bone "......uhm more precisely, climbing the hierarchy of spiritual status. Oh, that's moving up alright – further up the corporate a$ $." Seems to fit TWI. --------- I remember the sweetest most unassuming woman going into the WC and she came out the polar opposite. I was afraid of her. I don't scare easily. Spiritual growth according to TWI? Seems to be just how mean an SOB one could become. Maybe those who didn't conform, pimp for leadership, sell out their fellow man, or refused to harden were the ones with true growth. At least they had something to show for it. Those are the ones we remember fondly.

And.... :) If we choose to follow Christ.....know that we are sinners and we continue to expose ourselves to a theology which confuses holiness with religiosity we are less likely to truly understand sin. I can remember listening to the bible being taught with the most profane language. A hallmark of TWI. Profanity. I don't know another church where the Pastor gets up, takes the Lord's name in vain, drops the F-bomb and then teaches about a holy God. I can remember twig being a place for hook-ups and dirty jokes. Sexual sin, a hallmark of TWI. My husband used to get high after twig...along with everyone else in the twig. They would go straight from supposed "manifestations" bible teaching and Christian fellowship to getting high. An accepted practice. Substance abuse, be it alcohol or not...a hallmark of TWI. But, look at us...we are fun to be around....not religious. At least it wasn't heroin. Right...no big deal. I guess that depends on what one considers acceptable to God. VP had no clue.

I have to ask this.....when did VP ever stop sinning? When did he stop excessive Drambuie consumption? Stop abusing young women...stop adultery....stop exploring pornography and perversion......stop his sexual sin.....stop with anger......turn from the love of money.....stop making merchandise of us......control his foul language........cease twisting the scriptures.......stop any of it? When was the point he repented and turned to Jesus ........turned from sin and followed the Lord the other way? When? Can anyone point to his being transformed? Why would anyone follow that man into the chasm he climbed into? Why listen to a single word about a holy God from a man who embraced his sin? Unless sin doesn't really matter. As a Christian...I just don't get it. VP's ministry wasn't a safe harbor...it was a place to hide.

Thank-you johniam because this is a little clearer for me. You would rather minimize sin than maximize it? I never said it was an either or proposition did I? Why jump to a black and white extreme? I am speaking of having a proper attitude toward sin as a follower of Christ. A caviler attitude toward sin....is not Christian. It is not a part of the Christian faith. As you point out....Jesus died for our sins. Why? Why did He become sin? That is what the scriptures say. He stood in your stead.....and He took on what was due you. Jesus didn't just suffer and die, He took on the sins of the world. (No mere man did this). He absorbed the full wrath of God. Wrath toward sin. It wasn't the miracles Jesus performed or the healings that saved us. It was Him becoming sin. The scriptures are brimming with God's judgment because of sin. There are not a whole lot of abundant life scriptures in the bible. It is all about redemption. Don't you think a proper understanding of why sin is so offensive to God is paramount to understanding salvation? You have to ask yourself, what is the gospel really all about. Why does the whole bible point to one person? Was it because He multiplied bread and fish? Why did you have to be redeemed? God is love right? So, what is the biggie?He just wants us to be happy? Well, understanding that God is love but also, just, holy, pure, and merciful is all the more clearer when we understand sin. God so LOVED the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son. That is how God shows us He loves us BTW. It is not by giving us red drapes. But MAN loved darkness rather than light and unfortunately that includes you and I and VP. It is hard for me to fathom a time when man has truly been too sin conscious. VP made a point of having his ministry different from the oppressiveness of sin culture that dominates religion? Actually, VP fled a faith. He fled Christianity because we are sin conscious. We have to be. WE ARE SINNERS!!!! We are constrained from sin, because we understand the gospel, we follow and love Jesus, we magnify Him, and we know sin is abhorrent to Him. The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to convict and constrain us......gently points to our sin. So, that we can STOP. Of course VP fled a place where sin is brought to the light. He didn't want to stop sinning and he didn't ....he just got progressively worse. He embraced it fully.....he followed another path.....and he built himself a religion where he was Lord and master....not Jesus. A place and theology where he could keep sinning and live well while doing it. "Oh well" we are already sinners...right? Being aware of sin is not evil. Bearing one anothers burden is not evil. As Christians what exactly are our burdens? What are we to lay aside? Your post just jumped to extremes. Us against them....black and white.....Christianity is evil is what I heard.....because we are sin conscious...very sin conscious. The scriptures point us to the savior FROM sin. Not a Savior who allows us to continue in sin, but saves us from it.....VP lead us away from such a faith. In the Christian faith....being aware of sin is very important. Big sins, acceptable sins, little sins......we help each other because we are sinners, but we don't want to sin. We want to follow Jesus

What is the point here? I don't get it. It seems a pretty caviler attitude toward sin.....rather like an "Oh well"......but, taking a couple verses and making them fit your point while ignoring God and the rest of scripture is oddly reminiscent to me. Where is the "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips" or the sorrow of sin? Where is the fear of God in this post? Am I missing it....because I really could be, but I don't think so. Jesus had to die for our sins. God abhors sin. He is angry at the wicked everyday. We should abhor sin, not dismiss it . Have you read the REST of Romans? And we are commanded not to sin. Understanding a holy, holy, holy God gives one a whole new attitude about sin. ...and it is not "Oh well". It is repentance , sorrow, and CHANGE, also an honest realization of the nature of who it is we are offending. Christians do not minimize sin. Understanding what it means to be a sinner is all important to understanding the true message of the gospel.

It breaks my heart that people still follow VP's path to perdition. . . . . the most heartbreaking thing is those that have left long ago and are still immersed in it. VP's judgment is not one we want, not a place we want to follow him.....but, we can take heart....God is gracious and so able to deliver to the uttermost. I never underestimate the power of prayer or a true penitent heart before a merciful and all powerful God. :) Thank-you for your posts...they have meant a great deal to me.

The real question is which one did VP preach, what Jesus was he talking about? For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. We sure did put up with it easily enough.

Also Johniam....since it seemed to sail over your head....my point was that possibly Paul was exaggerating. If you notice, he does this in other places. Something to consider..... Jesus used hyperbole to make a point. These things are all over the scriptures. What Paul is saying with this one statement has to jive with the rest of what he is saying and remember...he was sternly correcting the Corinthians. You have mentioned several times that VP taught us how to read the bible. Well, he taught us how he read the bible......but, you really should try reading it for yourself. It is difficult because we were so programmed to read and understand it a certain way. VP didn't do us any favors. And just to add: Throwing out half of a verse like Roman's 8:38 as if that is going to remind someone and snap them in line....doesn't work on people here. At least most people I have seen post. That is a trigger which once initiated a certain response in us. A certain mindset. We all knew what that meant according to PFAL. There is no depth there. People are now free to draw their own conclusions about the scripture. Funny thing. Once I really read it. It took on a different hue for me. It is no longer a trigger.

You know....I was just trying to get you to consider language. This is what you come up with? I do understand because I went through the same thing. I have empathy for you. A surface and "spoon fed" understanding of the scriptures is not going to help you to realize you were in an anti-Christian cult. 20 years since the truth about TWI has come out is more than enough time to begin to deal with what you were involved in. They took your money and sold you easy believism. If you truly desire to know what it was you are immersed in....God is gracious and kind and will deliver you. If this TWI doctrine is what you want....He will let you continue in it.

Johniam, Take a fresh and close look at the scriptures and the answer is there concerning SIT. Why was Paul speaking about the genuine and the counterfeit to the Corinthians? Because there is such an animal maybe? Even Devils will affirm the Lordship of Jesus Christ ....James 2:19. Acts 19...Mark 5 and more references I can't think of off the top of my head. Look at the plural use of tongue and then tongues in 1 Corinthians if truly interested. Paul was contrasting two different things. One counterfeit and one genuine. One from God and one from the devil. I know you said if it is not broken....but we are encouraged to examine. If someone SIT before that class, before TWI....and some did....that is great. Many true Christians got caught up in the snare of TWI. If we "learned" SIT in PFAL or that was our experience and are continuing on the path of faith....maybe prayerfully examining the subject is a sound idea. What if it actually is as He(The Holy Spirit) wills. When Jesus said if your eye offends you pluck it out......did He mean really pluck your eye out? When Paul said I would that ye all SIT was he really saying everyone could? Maybe read up on prayer...it is beautiful, but when you begin to look at it ....it doesn't really support the idea that it was God's intention for us to speak to Him in a language we can't even understand.. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Onomatopoeia. Jesus warns us against this. Even Peter, after witnessing the transfiguration, did not vaunt his experience over the prophetic word (OT) and Peter was warning about false teachers. How can one who is truly born-again.....sell the Lord's death so cheaply? It cost God His beloved Son's suffering and death........and to assure people that they are heaven bound and all hell cannot stop them.....because of an experience which can be counterfeited......is beyond sinful. It is a narrow way. No true work of the spirit would ever produce the sins which were rampant in VP's life and the blatant corporate and continual sins of The Way Ministry. At least not the Holy Spirit.

Another description might be..... An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,( no adultery) temperate, prudent, respectable, able to teach, not addicted to wine(or drambuie) or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church....... Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.(That is clear conscience not seared conscience) On the other hand they should not be any of these...lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.(Probably sound advice)

. . . . . . . . One of the signatures of VPs ministry was that he wanted it to be different than the oppressive condemnation, sin, hell fire kind of preaching he grew up with. Wretch just didn't bless him, so what? He wrote JCING for the intended purpose of distancing his ministry from mainstream protestantism. I'm guessing that's why he spoke so bluntly about Billy Graham as well. VP was just sick of hearing people in twi compare his group to mainstream Christianity. Those people didn't get it. Did his strategy work? You tell me. 1975 - JCING written - 8,000 attend ROA next 11 years - one vicious attack on TWI after another - deprogrammings, nut cases protesting outside ministry events, etc. The hounds of hell. 1986 - ministry begins to splinter - over 20,000 attend ROA - attacks on ministry switch from outside to inside. For those 11 years we were mercilessly attacked from the outside, yet the ministry GREW! VPs strategy worked because God gave it to him. 1989 - after 3 years of in fighting, only 4,000 attend ROA. LCM does the loyalty letter to thin the herd. Damage control. 1993 - 11,000 attend ROA, damage control works, but then... 1994 - LCM initiates debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge, new class (wap), plus all other control methods. Ministry didn't grow too good after that, because God couldn't protect it from LCMs course of action. I liked LCM as VPs choice to replace him. IMO, LCM just started getting a truckload of bad advice and he wasn't able to absorb all that was going on. VPs ministry lives. Walter Cummins is still doing research. He and Dan Bader will be doing a weekend teaching seminar in Dayton in April. Many others are continuing to research and teach the word the way VP taught them. In America we're still free to do that, praise God. Those who will be conformed to this world will be conformed to this world. Please tell me you are kidding? 8,000 people attended the ROA in 1975? Big frickin deal.....do you have any idea how many millions have attended BG's Crusades? If it is numbers you are enamored of than you have got the wrong guy.......heck....go to a Soul Fest or any good Youth Rally today...and those numbers pale. Vp writes a book denying JC is God....which many Christians understand as actually denying God, he gets some impressionable kids to follow him into this abyss, and you think it is a Christian accomplishment? Really? Those "hounds of hell" were never in a cult. They knew VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing, they understood he was a bad man....and they cared enough to try and bring that to the attention of others. I sure wish I had paid attention to them. Let me thank them right now for trying. Maybe God Himself sent them to the gates of TWI? As long as we are throwing "whatever" out here.....did you ever consider that? If we had listened....maybe so many would not have been so scarred from VP's false anti-Christian "Bible" cult. That would have been nice. It would be a good thing if women were not STILL struggling with what happened to them.....if people DIDN'T commit suicide as a result of trauma endured in TWI......I don't know...just spit-balling here.....but these are not good things. Not to mention all the people who will never come to the scriptures again or anything but an aberrant understanding of Christ because VP wrote a few lousy books. Something to consider here is that TWI fell apart because our charismatic leader died and there was no one there to take his place. That TWI was nothing more than a cult of personality.....and when the big dog went....odds were pretty good the thing would fall apart. VP was TWI. It was his puppy. God had little to do with any of it. The scriptures are replete with warning....it is all there in black and white, but after VP got done with classes, cross outs, margin notes, literals and his "I just know it must be trues". It is little wonder we couldn't see it and more than a little interesting we could actually turn it around on the ones who understood who VP really was. Johniam, there are so many amazing bible teachers out there. People who really know their stuff. They have never been damaged by that aberrant, clinging, and anti-Christ thing VP passed off as biblical. Yes, we are free to listen to whomever we wish......but, at this point....knowing all that we do, why would we want to?

What you are saying is opposed to what the scriptures say. We don't feel good about ourselves first and then God.....that goodness comes from God. And..... yes..... we are servants. I am not trying to "sell" anyone anything. I simply said joy and peace come from God....from knowing Him. That is where the glory goes....to God. Not us. There is a huge difference between Dale Carnegie and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What does this even mean? Where are you getting this? I am not saying you are wrong.....but, how do you even glean this from the scriptures? You are, in fact, declaring what God wants.....I am assuming when one speaks so blatantly for God, they have some depth of understanding concerning the scriptures. Doesn't scripture tell us to repent and to be changed....to place our faith in Him. . . . to become a new creature in Christ? In my bible, it tells me that is where we feel good.....in Him. We get our joy in knowing Him.....we get our peace from trusting Him....we do good works He has ordained for us......and we are told.... Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (Much like cman said). To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. It is just not about "self" as Christians...it is all about Jesus. We feel good about Him. I know you assume that people here are all born-again, but some people here reject Christ. Many are just unsure what they believe anymore, but know they don't believe the gospel they heard in PFAL. (I think that is a very good thing btw). So, how can you declare them as saved? Is Jesus death and resurrection that cheapened in your view? Is God so inefficient? When I worship God....that Holy presence is overwhelming...I don't say "Look at me I feel good about myself" I am awestruck with wonder at Him, His holiness, that indescribable good, that love. I only have praise or thanks. I am incapable of anything else. I do believe God wants us to feel good about Him.....and that comes from knowing Him and that He is.....it has little to do with me. I don't like the way I look standing before Him....which is why I need a savior.

Christianity and psychology are not mutually exclusive.....there are Christian psychologists, psychiatrists, and Christian counselors!! Trained professionals. Educated....some (YIKES) are trained in Christian Colleges. Oh my, say it isn't so!! Now, in cults like TWI and Scientology where self-help is promoted but in a regulated and controlling fashion.....yeah...the two are mutually exclusive. It is a great method for control over the mind and body of others. Keep people from the things that really can help them. My brand new gorgeous... inside and out.... daughter-in-law..... is working(slowly) on her Masters in Counseling at.....a Christian college! She is a person who reaches out to those in need without judgment, rancor, or even imagined boogey men hiding in books and CD's! She actually wants to offer herself and her abilities to help. What a concept. Whoever pointed out TWI would label someone possessed and then do nothing about it ......brilliant point. I believe it is because it was a tool in their arsenal to keep people in line. It was a blatant fear tactic....psychological warfare. There is no compassion in such behavior. It is just creepy. I shudder(especially after this thread) to think of all the people who went without the MEDS they needed or the professional psychiatric counseling they needed....all because of TWI. It is really tragic.

On the other hand....resurrecting VP every night, year after year, sometimes every couple of hours.... is also keeping him alive. Maybe that is still, in some form, giving him a place in this life he should not have. That too is keeping a part of his legacy alive. It just is.... He has been dead 25 years! 25 years....and there are people who talk about him or TWI in some form or another every single day. Including Thanksgiving and Christmas!! It is past history. It is a sad part of our shared past history. That is what it is..... There are all kinds of people promoting all kinds of thinking.....much bigger fish in way bigger ponds. As has been pointed out....VP stole much of what he passed off....this stuff made the rounds long before VP and it will come again in another form. I say let him die....and embrace the life we want to live. If people are still exalting VP and what he taught despite all the information available....maybe that is who they want to be. Just a thought...nothing more.

Dead and gone and if we are smart....we will leave him there. Surprising though....how his peculiar brand of religion can still have a stranglehold. On some....I meant to say a stranglehold on some.

Apparently you don't or can't understand what a mature committed Christian relationship means (i.e., God's only standard) if this is your comeback......being "out of fellowship"?. Do you honestly believe people are so shallow in their relationships that if someone isn't in the "mood" it is a matter of being "right"? That is just sad. One of the things people hate about scripture is that the bible is crystal clear about sexual sin......we were always looking for the exception to the rule in TWI and what the heck....it is all grace anyway. God's standards are not too high.....grace is for falling while trying. My husband pointed out that although you are apparently not subject to rules.... God's rules, societal rules, a moral code......you can actual use a phrase like "men like myself who wouldn't let you get away with that, huh?" and mean it. That is pathetic. And just a point of reference....Matthew 5.27 and 28 are part of the Sermon on the Mount....not a private he-man woman haters club meeting. It was a very public discourse. But, what do I know....I am just a TV drama woman. That must be it. The minute things that are Holy in nature....just like God is Holy...are brought up....your teeth bare. What an odd phenomenon for someone who talks about the God of the bible and claims to believe in Him.

You know what is really telling about this? There is no discussion on the sanctity of sex in marriage, the holiness of worship in the act......the beauty of God's design....it is all just a rationalization for lust......and I can promise you that I don't make a judgment on a persons looks every time I look at someone. I can also promise you that adultery does not cross my mind....nor am I tempted to break my vows to God or my husband. Never once have I considered what I would use as an alibi. Adultery....is repugnant to me. I am not speaking about others...I just know my own heart. Sad to see someone speak about Jesus in one breath and this garbage in the next. I am not sure what it means to be subject to God ultimately.....but, Christians are subject to Him right now. Bolshevik hit the nail on the head.

There is something I find so off-putting in the way you discuss sexual issues. I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it is your terminology? Possibly the idea of "doing" young children.... which to me is abusive language in itself. It avoids the more pertinent reality of molestation with a misplaced vernacular. Maybe it is the seemingly random introduction of pedophilia into the discussion. It could definitely be this " Having desire for someone that young is not "perverted". It's criminal if you actively pursue sexual relations, but it's not perverted to simply desire someone who is old enough to either cause conception (male) or get pregnant (female). " I find that a disturbing rationalization and untoward statement when discussing a 13 year old CHILD. How old are you now? It could also be my puritanical New England upbringing......but this discussion seems to be bordering on the edge of not only good taste, but morality. Also, I am curious....what does someone being above average in physical attractiveness have to do with their statements concerning words you can use to describe children? Being pretty does not make one an expert on what is allowable? I do agree that there have been many suns that have set....which is why I am curious as to your seeming inability to process much of the available information concerning VP's life and actions. I think I am really wondering about the depth of your understanding of who God is and what salvation really means. This arises, in part, from your assumption that people here are born-again.......have a relationship with Jesus.....or have ever really been connected to the vine. My hope for you is that you really take a fresh look at the sections of scripture related to SIT. There is a wealth of information there concerning the genuine and counterfeit. I bring this up assuming you are relying on that phenomenon we all shared in PFAL to confer spiritual identification on others here. Yeah...I am more than a bit creeped out.