geisha779

Some Spurgeon.... I can conceive no surer method of prejudicing men against the truth than by sounding her praises through the lips of men of suspicious character. When the devil turned preacher in the Lord's day, the Master bade him hold his peace; he did not care for Satanic praises. It is very ridiculous to hear good truth from a bad man; it is like flour in a coal-sack. Religious deceivers are the worst of vermin, and I fear they are as plentiful as rats in an old wheatstack. Almost every impostor who has come into the world has aimed principally at the rich, and the mighty, and the respectable; very few impostors have found it to be worth their while to make it prominent in their preaching that they preach to the poor. The devil has more to do with some men's pitiless theology than they imagine. I loathe to hear our true Lord praised by false lips. They deny the doctrines which he taught, and yet prate about believing him. It is a shallow trick, but yet it deceives shallow souls. O blessed Jesus, it is the same still, thou wilt not dazzle or amuse, and therefore men prefer any charlatan to thee. As for the new doctrine that many are teaching, it has not enough in it to make even a mouse enthusiastic; it has not enough in it for them to bait a mouse-trap of their own, and the only way in which they can make any progress at all is by sneaking into our churches, obtaining a hearing and winning attention, and then, traitors as they are, speaking against the very truth that has built our houses of prayer. All false prophets have sought to keep their disciples at a distance, and to impress upon them, not merely a high estimation of their importance, but also a superstitious reverence for their person; ay, and sometimes altogether putting aside the thought of allowing any of their disciples to hold communion with them. Who, think you, are the more honest men,—those who tell you plainly what the Scriptures say concerning this wrath of God, or those who smooth it over, or deny it altogether?

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. . . . . . . . . . For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Sit not down without assurance. Get alone, and bring thy heart to the bar of trial: force it to answer the interrogatories put to it to set the qualifications of the saints on one side, and the qualifications of thyself on the other side, and then judge what resemblance there is between them.... Yet be sure thou judge by a true touchstone, and mistake not the Scripture description of a saint, that thou neither acquit nor condemn thyself by mistake. —Richard Baxter

Well, if Paul and Barnabas were WOW's then they sure were not free to go from town to town. They had a perimeter, had to be in by midnight, and could only work a partial schedule. Were they living with two women? Paul was preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not teaching that the bible interprets itself.... Paul was not stoned because he revealed how many were really crucified or believing equals receiving.....was he believing to be dragged out and stoned? Did he forget needs and wants have to be parallel? He was telling people they had to repent and turn from sin to follow Christ. They didn't like it. I don't think Paul was returning to undershepherd(Is that a word?) some newbies...recent PFAL grads...or dogging their steps until they signed up for the Intermediate class. Because we all know that is how you love someone. That is....until they don't sign up.....then you stop taking their calls.

Excellent post Twinky....sorry to cut and paste! The whole thing is well worth reading again. You did get me thinking about this.......Caiaphas was High Priest during the trial of Jesus....and in his position as High Priest God used him to give prophecy concerning God's plan of redemption. That was his role. Caiaphas didn't know it....and his heart was not for God....but, God still used him for His purpose and glory. I in no way believe VP was an unwitting Prophet. I in no way believe he was ever born-again. . . . . . . but, God has been known to use an a$$ to get his point across. :)

That is a really good question! Seriously! I really mean it!! Good for you.... I think it is very possible and it happens all the time. When someone is humble before the Lord and their error is pointed out....they change. It may not be easy and the struggle may last a lifetime.....but, that is the path we as Christians have to take. The Corinthians were a very gifted church and were practicing gross error. You can be a Christian and be in error. No doubt we all are in some practice. The question I would be asking myself .....is....habitually and willfully seeking sexual sin simply practicing error? Or, is it a willful perversion of God's design and being a slave to corruption? Actually....the question never comes up anymore....it has been answered. . . .the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. We don't know a great deal about the Nicolaitions....well, we know scripture tells us God hates them. We also know Jesus is judging this church and gives them credit for not tolerating wicked people.....testing people who claim they are Apostles but are not. How did they figure out they were false? Scripture gives us a pretty good guideline. It just does. It tells us to look at the morality of those who claim to be teachers...apostles...etc. Not to tolerate wickedness. It appears we are held accountable in some fashion....for judging the deeds of others. I always wondered why we shied off the book of Revelation in TWI. I really did. Jesus didn't like the practices of the Nicolaitians.....well, he hated the practice of the Nicolaitians. It is pretty vague what they did....we really don't know a great deal about them. It appears they were a Gnostic sect who were trying to infiltrate the church at Ephesus. Irenaeus speaks about them. . . . but, you know....he was a church father.....so....we can just completely dismiss what he said. Unless of course it is something that does actually support VP's theology.(Fat chance) Some believe they were followers of Nicolaus Acts 6:5 ....who perverted what he taught. An offshoot. :) There are a couple of things we can glean from what Irenaeus wrote and what we know from the 2nd century Nicolaitians. One I am not touching with a ten foot pole. The other thing...which is relevant ....is that they probably practiced a form of antinomianism. That they believed in the mercy of God for salvation.....but, they were not bound by the laws of God regarding sin. So, as long as they made the intellectual ascent to the gospel...they were free to do as they liked in the flesh. Apparently they were pretty good at liking wickedness. Ireneus mentions the Apostle John and the faith he preached. Without VP's margin notes, cross outs and literals...that can take on a different hue. Or not.... What I find interesting about this section of scripture is that this church had left its first love. Jesus was speaking to the church at Ephesus. I guess we have to examine the book of Ephesians to see what their first love was....or rather..... who their first love was. We draw our own conclusions. We tolerate what we choose to...it would really be a shame if we tolerated that which God hates.

Here .......this one is for Mary B. <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KwsvqVmFV6Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Some of their non credit courses are still free if anyone is interested.

I love it. :)

I really did think that explanation would penetrate.....FWIW..I really enjoyed reading it.

How do you get that I was referencing VP in my post. If I meant VP I would have said VP....instead I used a generic reference as an example....."So, the man who kidnaps. . ." The Packers reference is just sad....but....news flash...judges do rule on the morality of an issue. According to your clouded logic.....we don't judge white supremacy as bad? The Nazi's? Apartheid? On what planet? What faith does this happen in? Isn't that judging "man vs man" (whatever that means??) Johniam what I think got us in trouble in TWI was not judging the lives of those who claimed to speak for God........and certainly not knowing the truth.....the "truth" or the "word" because the "truth", and the "word", is a person. He even tells us who He is...I am the way, and the truth, and the life. Is Jesus a moral enough example for us to judge right from wrong....good from bad? He is after all, the express image of God. How did He treat women? You cannot get around the issue of abusing others while claiming to be a follower of Christ. That is what it means to be a Christian BTW. Christianity is about a person. The scriptures are about a person. Our faith is in a person. Our lives are freely given to a person. It is not about your experience. VP....preached a gospel that excused sin, his sin. Yet, if you ate a cookie during a colon cleanse...you deserved to die. That is just downright evil. There is no defense...excuse...or reason for a Christian to tolerate VP's doctrine of grace so that sin may abound. None. Not one rationalization that you can make from scripture that will stand. But, I would be fascinated to actually hear your exegesis on why we do not judge between the righteousness and the unrighteousness of those claiming to be "The Teacher". The accountability for true teachers of the gospel is double of those who don't have the responsibility. Can you fathom the judgment for false teachers? Their destiny will be according to what they did...not said. 2 Peter 2 is a bit more frightening. Knowing that God will judge them....what are we told to judge to avoid them? What are we warned to look for to avoid false teachers? Could it be their morality? Could it be we look for their sound speech and behavior? When Paul is warning Timothy about these men....he doesn't go into as much detail about their doctrine as he does their behavior....their manner of life. And.....he didn't say stick your head in the sand. Don't judge man vs man. Denying the Lordship of Christ by lifestyle....while claiming to be a believer.......discredits the gospel. Why? Because refusing to live as a servant....and living according to lust is an opening for mocking the gospel. This is destructive to others who are seeking faith. It is a bad thing. Jesus said...take heed how you hear. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him. That verse is actually a pretty dire warning. Wouldn't listening to Jesus actually be the better bet than listening to VP?

Hobby Lobby could help them out if they wanted to do something good with the properties. Oh, I forgot....TWI doesn't really affiliate with Christians outside the "household". That is just so...so....what is the word? Odd. It would be different if they didn't claim some kind of "ministry", but, then again, it makes perfect sense. TWI is not a Christian organization. Why would they work with Christians? Hobby Lobby bought one of the campuses that was originally part of the school D. L. Moody started for underprivileged kids to receive a good education. The campus....which is worth millions...was sold to Hobby Lobby for a hundred thousand dollars. They did have to commit to making renovations. They in turn ......are renting it to C.S. Lewis College for a whole one dollar a year. The property has an auditorium worth a million...the buildings are worth many millions and the property is stunning. There are dorms, huge classroom buildings and the campus is littered with beautiful Victorian houses....a gorgeous library....a lovely Chapel.....and a really amazing world-class garden designed by a true artist. Little money changed hands. The property will be used by Christians....as D.L. Moody intended. Actually, anyone is welcome to attend regardless of their faith....just like D.L. Moody's school. They had to go to bible class...but, DL Moody didn't turn people away. He helped the poor. (What a concept). Didn't VP tout Moody as an influence? Not a chance.

Now that's convenient!! (suited to personal comfort or to easy performance) So, the guy who kidnaps children to molest and murder them is morally on par with the one who dedicates his life to feeding hungry children and delights in good? I don't think so...one of those two is far superior in good than the other. If you are TRYING to say there is none good but God....then you have to actually make the comparison TO God. Even a child knows the difference between good and bad....right and wrong...moral and immoral! Your above statement indicates a LACK of reason.

Some versions do use the word harbor instead of haven. Psalm 107 was written to inspire praise in the children of Israel by remembering God's good deeds. Praise for God not TWI or VP. God didn't prepare a place of wanton pleasures and debauchery as a haven. He didn't prepare a place where women were objectified and abused. Jesus treated women with tenderness, love and most of all with honor. The blessing of the Lord makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it. If you turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the sorrow of others hurt by your "haven".... You really didn't escape as unscathed as you think.

A belated Happy Birthday Shellon....I am so so glad you enjoyed it!

Twinky, These are excerpts from an article titled Spiritual Gifts on bible.org. I like that site because it gives a wide range of theology and various perspectives on the same subject. :) Nothing earth shattering in the article, but I appreciated the focus. http://bible.org/ser...inthians-121-11 The great error of the carnal Corinthian church was to confuse spiritual gifts with spirituality. Those who spoke in tongues thought themselves to be several notches higher on the spiritual scale than those who did not have this gift. The Corinthian church was apparently an exceptionally gifted church, but it was also one of the most carnal churches in the New Testament. My friend, you may not be comforted in hearing this but the man who has the gift of pastor-teacher may be far less spiritual than the one who has the gift of helps. The one with the gift of giving may be far more spiritual than the evangelist who is winning thousands to Christ. We need only recall the Old Testament figure, Sampson, to be reminded that while he was performing great feats of strength he was living a life devoted to the flesh. Our Spiritual Gift Excuses Us From Other Responsibilities The watchword of the Christian sluggard is 'that's not my gift.' My pet peeve is the pastor-teacher who maintains that his sole obligation is to prepare for sermons. He has no time for counseling those who are struggling with life, no time to visit the sick, no time to comfort the mourning. That mentality is an abuse of the biblical teaching concerning spiritual gifts. We have demonstrated that every gift relates to a function that is the responsibility of every Christian. Although some are gifted to give, all Christians are to give cheerfully to the Lord. While some are gifted to be leaders or administrators, every man is to be a leader in his home, and every woman needs to lead as well (cf. Proverbs 31). While our spiritual gift necessitates that we establish priorities, we are never excused from the responsibilities of all Christians. We are foolish to spend great amounts of time as the chairman of a committee if we are not gifted as an administrator. We would spend our time much more profitably in the area of our gift. But let us be careful about excusing ourselves from tasks for which we are responsible. We may not be gifted at leading people to Christ, but we are to be witnesses for our Lord Jesus.

You are the only poster who has been casting doubts on God's goodness..... Then again, we usually did assume God Almighty had less moral fiber than your average atheist with an ounce of common decency. Trickle down theology.

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I am pretty sure you don't need a degree, but being a PFAL grad who never snapped back appears to be a prerequisite.

One of my favorites is C.S. Lewis, from Mere Christianity. "Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of - throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself." --------------------------- Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important. John Piper "The wisdom of God devised a way for the love of God to deliver sinners from the wrath of God while not compromising the righteousness of God." ------------------------ "Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there. The gospel is not a way to get people to heaven; it is a way to get people to God. It's a way of overcoming every obstacle to everlasting joy in God. If we don't want God above all things, we have not been converted by the gospel." ---------------------- "Do you feel loved by God because you believe he makes much of you, or because you believe he frees you and empowers you to enjoy making much of him?" A.W. Tozer "It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly until He has hurt him deeply." ------------------------------------ "The yearning to know what cannot be known, to comprehend the incomprehensible, to touch and taste the unapproachable, arises from the image of God in the nature of man. Deep calleth unto deep, and though polluted and landlocked by the mighty disaster theologians call the Fall, the soul senses its origin and longs to return to its source." Ravi Zacharias "Yes, if truth is not under girded by love, it makes the possessor of that truth obnoxious and the truth repulsive." ------------------------ "Unless I understand the Cross, I cannot understand why my commitment to what is right must be precedence over what I prefer." R.C. Sproul For the soul of a person to be inflamed with passion for the living God, that person's mind must first be informed about the character and will of God. There can be nothing in the heart that is not first in the mind. Though it is possible to have theology on the head without its piercing the soul, it cannot pierce the soul without first being grasped by the mind. DL Moody God doesn't seek for golden vessels, and does not ask for silver ones, but He must have clean ones. ------------------------- Some day you will read in the papers that D.L. Moody of East Northfield, is dead. Don't you believe a word of it! At that moment I shall be more alive than I am now; I shall have gone up higher, that is all, out of this old clay tenement into a house that is immortal- a body that death cannot touch, that sin cannot taint; a body fashioned like unto His glorious body. I was born of the flesh in 1837. I was born of the Spirit in 1856. That which is born of the flesh may die. That which is born of the Spirit will live forever.(Especially poignant as we once had the honor of tending his grave)

The really "good" Pastors teach with 4 ft swords next to them and joke about maiming women. Those are the ones EVERYONE feels really comfortable with. Don't ya know. Yeah, my Pastor regularly uses vulgar terms while he threatens to disfigure me. That is why I keep going back....it is all so pure and holy. God must really get a good chuckle from Pastors like that. They really give Him a good name. How.....fun.

That is quite an exegesis you have there. Impressive! What a response to the knowledge that the term The Son of God is reserved for Jesus Christ alone or that we are called slaves to emphasis the Lordship of Jesus. I am sure that is what it is meant to invoke in us.....a childish response and a commercial for Certs. These terms and positions are good things to learn....they help us overcome the complete lack of the fear of God we had in TWI....they also help to build a high view of God instead of the low view we held in TWI. I am very thankful for those little things and the deliverance they serve.

And sadly, your posts remind me of this....What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them. I know that is harsh...but there it is. I don't think you know what you believe or why. You clearly do not have a grasp on the scriptures....but then again....knowledge is just knowledge without the heart being transformed. That transformation....is going to translate into a life of righteousness if one truly has saving faith. When discussing VP you will find that in 2 Peter by the way. You know...it probably is much easier for me to believe what VP did to women as I had a lovely little run in with the man himself. Apparently he liked what he saw. I was lucky...I made a bee-line for the door. Somehow, after having your backside grabbed and your attributes commented on.....you get an idea of what he was capable of. I didn't post until 2008, but I don't need to hear others stories of abuse. I have learned enough about the scriptures since TWI to know that what we were taught was wrong. Those giant leaps of assumption you make with VP about other ministers or pastors or legitimate bible scholars not understanding the book. Those are ridiculous and quite elitist considering you were the one in the cult. How do you just follow him there? Are you so versed in theology, or such a bible scholar you can make those arrogant assumptions with VP? No, obviously you are not....that assumption...is a leap of faith. You put your faith in VP. Although Jesus was pretty clear about a bad tree unable to bear good fruit and the Apostles were very clear about false teachers and what they do with the scriptures(which you should read) you insist on following that man. Your loyalties are pretty obvious. You should read Matthew 15 sometime and see where the blind guides really lead. It isn't pretty. I have been able to glean a little bit about what you get from the gospel. You don't seem to be able to put 2 + 2 together and come up with 4. A life given to the Lord.....will reflect the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Where was that in VP's life again? When was it he stopped sinning? When did He follow Jesus away from sin and into righteousness? It certainly would be evident in his life. Don't you wonder why VP had no peers? Why other men who stand for God had NOTHING to do with him other than to warn about him? It is because they were following the Lord's instructions to have nothing to do with men like VP. It is pretty sound advice...you should listen to what the Lord tells you.

At first, I just wanted to reach 2000 posts before the forums closed. But, writing things out....for me....is really helpful. And it really does offend me that people still think VP was a man after God's own heart. It hurts me for them that they are missing the greatness of God.....but, it also offends me that people who claim such special knowledge, have such a low view of God. Especially if they call themselves a son of God. Which btw the scriptures does not call us. Collectively we are the sons and daughters of God...but the title...Son of God is reserved for Jesus Christ alone.The term used most to describe us is slave, but even that is used to emphasis His role as master.(That one was for johniam) I guess that is another topic. :) Yeah, I said I wasn't going to look again....and then.....I did. It is like a train wreck and I can't seem to look away.

The rest of your post was just so...so...so....very strange to my ears...I won't even bother. Could be you are just trying to get a rise...who knows? But, this part....on the other hand...really ticks me off. I would educate you on the proper terms for describing a woman's anatomy.....but I know that is fruitless. I would point out that in no way is it appropriate for a Christian Pastor to joke about maiming a woman....but you would not get it. However, I will point out to you just how offensive that particular joke is and your relaying it ....given what has happened to many women in the Sudan. Christian women who have had their breasts cut off with swords. Do you have any clue what is happening outside of your little bubble? Excuse me now...I just threw up a little in my mouth.