geisha779

TWI said...."Stay tapped to the root"....Christians say..."connected to the vine." One means stay tapped into a cult(wouldn't want that abs wandering off)....one means we are connected to Jesus Christ. Similar terms...entirely different meanings. One promotes a relationship with a group and was a marketing slogan which sounded Christian....the other term firmly identifies us in our relationship to Jesus Christ as Christians. We didn't just disagree with the trinity....we mocked it. We sang songs about it. I remember being a WOW and playing some music tape....and I can still remember my complete disdain and feeling of utter disgust for those trinitarians....idolaters. I think there was something about flipping the bird in that song? Either way...I just knew they did not understand what they believed....I sure didn't. Funny thing....I do now believe God is a trinity...I do see it in scripture...everywhere......and that is what changed my entire relationship with Jesus. It changed my entire understanding of the scriptures. That is me...I am not trying to convince anyone. It did take just considering I might have gotten that one wrong as well....but, that is my experience. I skipped church today though.... :)

I probably just killed this thread with TMI. Too much information.....Sorry if I did :( This forum has had some pretty interesting discussions....and like WW, I learned some things on this thread. Time well spent.

Magic! Thank-you!!

There is a thread on here that is just wonderful....a few of the posters put together some amazing information in an easy readable fashion....I believe it is well presented. I love the posters here...most of them are so bright! It is certainly verifiable information....if someone wants to make the effort. Some of it I already knew...but, I learned a great deal and checked out what I didn't know ...in detail. Since I can't link it...I am blond and that is beyond my grade level.....and I don't believe John will read the thread....I will cut and paste. I do know that the Word of Faith Movement was Christianized to make it more palatable and they used many of the same terms as Christianity but with far different meanings...just like TWI! Wow, funny how that works. It is still around...still preached from the pulpit...but, VP perverted that particular perversion of the gospel....to me....that is really fascinating. Waysider linked it for me...so I am editing!

An unregenerate man, who died in his sins...and took many others with him.....who not only rejected the Lord, but used GOD Almighty as a reason to sin....and I am supposed to love him how? By what action?.....Whitewashing what he did? I am being loving to you John.....by telling you who he was.... Was Jesus being unloving when He told the Pharisees . . .. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. VP was a Pharisee. Oddly enough John....I rarely say anything about LCM. That is not because I think what he did was right...it was evil...but I still believe God can save him. VP already made his choice.

Although....it could just be. . . . . The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him. I can't believe you just compared Word Wolf in any way to those who crucified Jesus....VP is clearly not Jesus and calling an evil hypocrite...an evil hypocrite is not really crucifying the innocent. You may believe nothing supercedes the finished work of Jesus Christ....but, do you understand what that means? Clearly there is a disconnect somewhere if you think that is the Lord's handiwork in VP's life.

I thought the end was Dec 21, 2012? There is a movie and everything.....

I am still trying to figure that one out......it has taken a long time and often painful realizations to be delivered from most of what he taught. I am not very grateful to him for that. I was in a cult....not grateful and not a great story to tell at parties or bible study for that matter. I wasted my time serving some misguided ministry when I could have been serving God....I am not very glad about that. I am still realizing things about those teachings....I was listening to an actual Christian teacher the other night speaking about our assurance in the Lord and it dawned on me just how deceptive VP was.....He told us that SIT was "the external manifestation in the senses realm of the internal reality of the presence and the power of the HS." That we could know, that we know, that we know, because we SIT. Heaven bound and all hell could not stop us. Well, if we put our faith in the Lord and truly do believe in our hearts....if we trust Jesus and He is Lord....really Lord, we are actually convinced....then why wouldn't we know something we believe in the deepest part of our being? We believe in our hearts....we trust Him....we give our lives to Him.....why do we need a sign? Just in case? What? I don't get it? Well, I actually do get it.....that is unbelief. Not faith. It is the polar opposite of actual faith. 1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. . . . . People who didn't believe sought signs.....SIT was a sign to those who didn't believe. All I had to do was look at the accounts in scripture to see this......but, my head was so full of garbage from that "teacher" I couldn't even read the bible and see what was actually written. VP lead us into unbelief. John 6 28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." 30 So they asked him, "What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat." 32 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 "Sir," they said, "always give us this bread."

That should settle it right there.

I didn't know you went to a seminary! Which one? Bible college? Let me know....I may be familiar with it...I might even know someone who went there. . . . most of my kids friends go to bible college. They are spread out all over the country. You never know. Wow, I am surprised(Not really) that you believe the goal of seminary is is to numb minds and to prevent actual submission(whatever that means to you). How many seminary grads do you spend time with? Theologians? Which ones do damage control with scripture...which theologians do you read or listen to? Whose course material have you studied with such depth that you feel confident in saying this? Maybe you have someone particular in mind? I might actually agree with you on a specific, but I would have to closely examine the material first....make sure I wasn't coming at it with an aberrant understanding....and really consider the evidence before I did agree with you....but it is possible. The kids I know who are in seminary or bible college are on fire for the Lord and their lives usually put me to shame about my wasted youth in TWI. Seriously...I still get that icky feeling. None of them term the Word of God as a sampler plate....interesting. So, from what vantage point of superior knowledge and pure understanding of the scriptures do you make this assessment about the church of Jesus Christ our Lord. PFAL...the Advanced Class? Seminary? Did the Holy Spirit tell you this? You have already declared God doesn't like Billy Graham's idolatry(May God have mercy on you). This charge...I have to assume...comes from your deep understanding of BG's beliefs, heart, life, and relationship with a Holy God. What he speaks so tenderly about Jesus Christ? If you don't have that...I assume it comes from the evidence you do have of his life and the millions of souls he has won to the Lord. Oh, I forgot...bastard babies orphaned on the side of the road. As if the Lord is unable to keep those who belong to Him. Arrogance....don't the scriptures mention this in relation to false teachers? Sorry for the derail....please do get back to sex in the bible and the pure and Godly exegesis you have going. Me, I am going to take a shower....suddenly feels like I need one.

Thanks. :) I edited this post before I hit send and took out some of the more lurid details about that Advanced Class....a great deal happened....so my first example may look a bit misplaced. There were many truly innocent and lovely compliments back then.....I don't think they were all lecherous or wrong....some were given with the sweetest of motives. There is nothing wrong with an innocent compliment. I tell women all the time how lovely they are and I am one!!.....8 to 88 years old....I always find something to compliment. Makes them happy. These days....I don't balk when someone calls me pretty! Are you kidding? I love it.

We have 1 Corinthians 5&6 2 Corinthians... Timothy, Titus, Jude, and 2nd Peter reading like VP's unauthorized biography.....first hand accounts of abuse and for the most part ...we all saw the drinking, smoking and heard the profanity.....most of the devious teachings have been explored.....and yet, some nameless/faceless WC guy tells johniam Jim Doop was a womanizer.....and we are to just believe it? One of the greatest evangelists and servants to ever come along...Billy Graham...and johniam just blithely lays the charge of idolatry at his feet. Like it means nothing.....just rolls off his finger tips. Yet, he defends a molester. Compares him to KING David. I have to go now....my head may explode.

I took the Advanced Class at Emporia. I wasn't there an hour before some Corps guy on a bike felt it important to comment on how I looked. . . . how nice it was to have some pretty girls around. Innocent enough I guess, but I can remember it made me uncomfortable. I had to change my seat more than once because the guy behind me decided to give me a neck rub. One time I got into an ugly confrontation because the man/boy sitting behind me...after I asked him not to touch me...continued to paw me. When I told him firmly ......not to touch me....I remember his response....."I am just trying to bless you" I knew that was manipulative even then....and I had to move my seat. VP grabbed my backside in front of people and made a comment. I know one poster who had to play duck and cover to avoid taking a coach ride with him to another campus. It wasn't blatant orgies in the halls...but if you were female...you knew what dark alley NOT to take. It could be pretty uncomfortable. The water testing was obvious....and it came from somewhere. My experience anyway....I wasn't there very long. It did change my mind about going into the WC though....

There is a real Christian organization for you...it is such a tender witness when its followers fear bodily harm from its leaders. Go Jesus!

What did some poor lumberjack or shoe salesman ever do to you to deserve being compared to VP? :) _______________________________________________________________________________ The Apostle Paul called men like VP...servants of Satan.....he wasn't laying a charge at God's elect.....he was exposing false teachers who "fool" people. God speaks a great deal about what VP did. Scripture is not silent on the matter...... What have we been saying for the last 7 pages??? Hello....testing...one, two, three,...is this thing on? And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Hebrews is about Jesus Christ and faith. I think what VP taught was a false faith. It wasn't just believing equals receiving..... VP said something to the effect "SIT was the external proof in the senses realm of the internal reality and presence of the power of the HS. I should have read Hebrews. I was tricked by a sign.....and it was pretty devious..... the person we are to put our faith in....is the only one who gives us our assurance. He is the only one who can and if He is worthy of faith....our assurance has to be Him....nothing else will do. Yet my assurance was that sign. "Heaven bound and all hell can't stop us"....when I think about it...it took the place of genuine faith in Christ alone. If you believe the scriptures...some of us got tricked right out of salvation. We don't require a sign....we don't get our assurance from a sign.....we have faith in the Lord alone. I didn't need to Lo Shanta...I needed saving faith. It was Pilate and those who mocked Jesus who wanted a sign.

This is a quote from Charles Spurgeon.......probably from the 1870's....a hundred years before TWI's hay-day. Nothing new under the sun...could have been said about VP. Almost every impostor who has come into the world has aimed principally at the rich, and the mighty, and the respectable; very few impostors have found it to be worth their while to make it prominent in their preaching that they preach to the poor.

Thank-you WW for covering the questions about Bathsheba. Johniam's continual sexual references are disturbing. I tend to ignore them. I am glad you addressed them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The other thing for johniam to begin to consider.....maybe....is Proverbs 31. What was it that Bathsheba went through in her life that brought her to the place where she is held up as the Virtuous Woman? The account with David is on the opposite end of the scale to proverbs 31and although David's account does not tell us a great deal about her.......Proverbs 31 does. She found great favor with God.........she was transformed. When we read that Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. We can consider her experiences with David and Uriah and see that these words come from a place of deep understanding. From her life. Her sins. She changed....she went from adultery to being virtuous. How? Because she was broken. From that broken place....look at the great things the Lord taught her and the honor given her. It wasn't done without her repentance or humility before God. Yes, johniam.....the Lord cared deeply for Bathsheba and He took David's sin..... he didn't cover it up... He turned it for good. That is what God does.

. . . and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas my faithful martyr, who was slain among you. . . . . Faithful martyr? According to VP's understanding that is a oxymoron. There is no such thing as a faithful martyr........

I have really admired that you have not compared VP's situation with that of David. Seriously. Okay.....Let's look at this account. You brought it up....let's examine it together and see what the differences are....maybe I can actually help you to understand these scriptures in a different light. We don't use the scriptures to rationalize sin....and I told you that not one rationalization you make is going to stand. That is because....there isn't one. The account of David and Bathsheba is not applicable here unless we twist these scriptures to make them mean something they do not.....and we really don't want to do that. First of all this account is not held up as an example of how a follower of God should behave. While we are at it...why not use Peter's denial of the Lord as an excuse to deny him. What David did....displeased the Lord. And it wasn't about Bathsheba OR Uriah.....it was about David sinning AGAINST THE LORD. All sin....no matter who it touches is against the Lord. That is the focus of this account. Not that God covered it or that God winked at it or that God let him get away with it. Maybe that starting point is helpful to see this account in a differing light. David's sin here....actually effected seven generations. It was larger than you even understand. Your focus is the people involved. The purpose of this account is to show the magnitude of sin.....sin is bad....it hurts people, but moreover...it displeases God. David's sin displeased God....when David realized his sin....he had SORROW that he had sinned against God. He repented. He turned from sin all the days of his life. Which means he never did it again. It was only AFTER this that God forgave him. Did you shut your bible after this....David paid a hefty price. His firstborn died...his kingdom was divided.... Absalom chased him for years trying to kill him. David hid from his own child.......he did NOT spend his days on a motor coach with young women AFTER he had repented. What David did...legally demanded his death....does that sound like all the women belonged to him? David didn't attempt to rationalize or justify his sin before God. When he was confronted his repentance and admission of guilt was immediate, but God's forgiveness doesn't always remove the consequences of sin.....in this life. David paid and paid and paid. So, no that does not make God a co conspirator...that makes God merciful in that he didn't take David's life. No where does it say God was covering for David while he was sinning.....or that he in anyway approved of David's actions....it says he was displeased...David deserved death....David had true Godly repentance....and God showed mercy. God is not required to show mercy. If you look at other accounts....people did die for their sins. David's own son committed the same sin and did not live too long after that. No repentance. He didn't live to do it again. You said God covered for VP as long as he could......when did he have true Godly repentance and stop sinning so that God forgave him. That is what God required of David. I ran into VP a year before he died. His eyes or I should say eye....was still full of lust. Maybe the real problem here...why you cannot connect with what we are telling you is that you rely on this idea of dispensationalism a bit to heavily. God doesn't change. He still requires us to have true Godly repentance and turn from sin. There are still consequences of sin in this life. How you tell someone has made Jesus Lord in their life is their conversion. Transformation? Their recognition of sin in their lives and their turning from it. When was it that VP was converted? When did his life NOT HIS WORDS ever reflect the Lordship of Jesus Christ? You tell me...... He was a corrupt tree that didn't bear good fruit. VP drank like a fish. If you ever set up for one of his visits you know what was required don't you? A bean bag ashtray....a carton of kool shorties......a coffee cup.....drambuie.....and breath mints. Eyes full of adultery. Well, what is it you claim God covered for him? Insatiable for sin, seeking orgies, pornography, anger, twisting scripture, stealing others intellectual property, he was abusive, he blamed victims......he enticed unsteady souls......he was trained in greed. When VP came to town....do you know what he took with him. Great big paper bags FULL of money. They went on the motor coach and left with him. While we drove rust buckets...he drove Town Cars...and he took our money with him. When did this stop? I am starting to get really disgusted and a bit ticked off now.... You may confer sainthood on VP ...the scriptures say he is headed for a different judgment.

God was not a co conspirator in VP's lifestyle. God is not a co conspirator in sin. Where do you get this garbage? For someone who accuses Billy Graham of idolatry...you sure don't have a problem bringing God down to a human level yourself. The difference is....Billy G believes Jesus was fully God and fully man...sinless. Not conspiring in sin.

The sad irony is.....people did follow a man who was rebelling against the church.....but, he left the church in rebellion to God. I really believe that. He knew the gospel....he knew the truth....he knew God. God and accountability got in the way of VP's desires and he pretty much had to rewrite the whole thing to make God a co conspirator in his lifestyle..... The difference is...the young people who followed him away from the church.....were genuinely seeking God. The church failed them. They were LEAD astray. VP was the blind guide. It was the perfect storm for a good con man.

You should see it in the original.........For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. John 5:26

I was at a wedding this past September, and I watched the groom hand a ring he had been wearing , to his best man. The best man, also engaged, took it and put it on. They both are incredible young Christian men. The ring was one that many young Christian men are wearing. It is a promise of sorts to keep themselves for marriage. Remember the days of purity and chastity? They are still alive and well in the lives of many many young Christian men. This particular groom is part of a large network of friends who support one another and who keep each other accountable. No one gets away with trash talk. No one would even want to.. . . . In TWI....we despised holiness, purity and God's design. .............................................................................................................. Socrates....this is about the funniest thing I have read on here.....What's the prayer? Lord, grant me the strength to endure my blessings.

And......I don't think trading one form of bondage for another is really a blessing from God. It just has a different face. I used to think I got such great deliverance from PFAL. I certainly changed and stopped a destructive lifestyle......by simply adopting another one. A good stint in rehab would have been just as effective to get me off drugs, but the taint of TWI can take years to overcome. I didn't become a Christian until I left TWI....and the realization of what I had so easily believed about God......although repented and forgiven....still can make me a little queasy.