geisha779

What exactly do you think fruit of the Spirit is?? Some mystical magical unseen thing....not evident in a Christian walk? Paul is drawing a contrast between a Spirit filled life which naturally produces the fruit of the Spirit and a carnal life independent of God. It is a contrast. So yes, if someone is living a Spirit filled life....they are going to live a Godly and virtuous life....that is EXACTLY what it means. It doesn't mean they habitually abuse people in the name of God. Sorry, that is a bunch of crap. It is imagery that was very familiar. It is all over Proverbs!! Jesus Himself used the same imagery to tell us what to LOOK for in someone's life to see if they were true or false. A GOOD tree bears GOOD fruit....a bad tree bears BAD fruit. You seem to confuse perfecting of the flesh with the natural Godly outcome of a love relationship with Jesus. You don't live carnally and have some secret good fruit hidden in your spirit. It is manifest in your life. There is no getting around that. VP's life is no longer hidden. We don't have an excuse anymore for not recognizing the fruit he bore in his life. No excuse. Obvious to me right now is his twisting of scripture. You really should burn that Blue Book. Exactly what is the fruit produced from living carnally? Independent of God. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. How much plainer can it be. As for whatever it was you were trying to say about Romans.....here....you quoted it yourself. " . . . . for by the law is the knowledge of sin." What is sin . . . . a moral act? Is it an offense against God? Is God moral? Is God righteous? Meaning right. So, where do right morals come from? Man or God? The bible is replete with morality johniam, and it is replete with commandments and what true transformation looks like. VP never taught us that. It was all grace and we were going to sin because we had flesh so it didn't really matter. Sin, it actually does matter. A sin filled life does not produce love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Sin matters to God....He gave His Son because of it...do you really think he wants us to continue in it? Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh. Sin is what you have to leave behind if you want to follow Christ. People don't want to hear it. They love their sins. What do you think attracted many of us to TWI?

First off.....the law was to point people to Christ and this does not denigrate the law, it elevates it. Paul said in Romans: 7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. Paul is telling us right here God gives morality. Funny how VP used dispensationalism to denigrate the law.....then correctly told us Christ was better....and in the next breath told us Christ was absent. . . . . no wonder they had no moral compass. If you do away with morality, which comes from the laws or commands.........or if you deny the laws you are also denying the lawgiver. That is idolatry. Who is speaking of works to earn salvation? No one I have read. There is a difference in perfecting the flesh to earn salvation than in loving and believing in God, honoring Him and putting our faith in Him. Glorifying God in our thoughts, words, deeds, and life. Big difference. Jesus did the work so we don't have to, but what are we commanded to do? And what illustrates our love for God? Obedience. It also illustrates our faith in Him. True salvation, is reflected in the lives of true believers by their actions. Clear enough? Sanctification is abstaining from the lusts of the flesh......it is what propels us to good and Godly works. There is an opposing false believer also clearly portrayed in scripture. They are also revealed by their actions. It is by the lust of the flesh. VP's life and actions...tell us which one he was. Sure, someone who acts religious might fool some people, but someone who indulges like VP did....shouldn't be able to fool anyone. "If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:15 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" Luke 11:28 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' Matthew 7: 21-23 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. James 1:27 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. John 21 15-17 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:18 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31,32 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." Luke 16:13 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ... Matthew 52:31-46

Yeah, but look at what they considered "spiritual maturity" if most of us had known....we would have RUN the other way as fast as our feet would take us. It ties in with what you were saying about secrecy. The whole thing was an illusion....there was no spiritual maturity...it was a cover for an old perv. All that monotone, busy work, and the minutia we focused on in scripture kept the cash rolling in and the drone bees droning so the king bee could mate. Socrates linked this story on another thread....it is from Dr. Juedes site. Periodically after that Dr. Wierwille would send for me and we would take. When he would try to lead me into something else, I told him, "I'm not ready. I still don't see it in the Word." I was trying to research all I could find in the Bible about "sex." One day I confronted him with what I found, and he responded, "Whatsoever things are pure... think on these things" (from Philippians). He strongly implied that I was thinking evil about it-- therefore in my mind it was evil, even though it was pure to him. He probably made the perfect sex offender, making it seem as though the victim was the one at fault. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . After discovering Dr. Wierwille was the perpetrator of these wrong doctrines, I studied sex outside of marriage and I confronted Dr. Wierwille around 1982. It is my opinion, that he was too drunk on Drambuie to take my confrontation of the word seriously.

Or, it could be that white supremacists adhere to a bad and warped set of morals. . . . good vs bad....false vs true (ringing any bells here?) that doesn't make them man made...it makes them skewed and offensive to moral people. I was trying to think of another example for you....the best I could come up with is .....something like generalizing about the commitment, understanding, and behavior of seminary students and declaring them as not submitting to or understanding scripture, and even assigning nefarious motives to those teaching in such institutions. Now, that would be using skewed moral standards....i.e. basing this judgment on ones own aberrant understanding of scripture.That could be considered an attitude of moral superiority. Your strategy works, for the most part. You figure that by micro analyzing everything I post, you will numb the mind of anyone who actually takes the time to read all the way through your long winded damage control. That's basically what theologians do to scripture, so by the time those seminary students get their degrees, their minds have been numbed to the point that they don't believe the bible is literally the word of God they're supposed to be subject to. It's just a sampler plate from a buffet to them. No actual submission. At least, that's the goal. It is also hypocritical if a few posts later the one making this moral judgment reveals their own inability to submit to or understand clearly written scripture with moral imperative. Not to mention it is arrogant and includes assigning false motives to WordWolf . But, as you point out.....we all do it in some manner. If we are going to compare ourselves to someone....we are to compare ourselves to Christ. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It doesn't mean I can't tell the difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa.

If morals are man made...where does that leave God? Amoral? Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Isaiah 5: 20 Another one of those pesky "Woe unto" verses. The scriptures are full of them. Excellent post T-bone!!

Smart guy!

No, I agree, but you can get an abrupt personality change. Lucky us. We get to overcome our "deliverance". I feel so special!!

Morals are man made. . . . . Yeah, you wouldn't want to classify those pesky 10 commandments as moral imperatives or anything like that. Lots of gray area in THOU SHALT NOT.... Well, no one did see Moses get the things...maybe he was up on Sinai making it all up. Ham, I believe it was least safe for those guys. They just did what they wanted but, I don't believe God is deaf, dumb, or stupid. I choose to believe he is just. In my belief system...it isn't looking too good for them. Sometimes it is better to pay right away....delayed justice can be harsh.

Your analogy is not 100% but I just live in a religious dream? How does that connect? Never mind...I don't really care....and I already know....I was in TWI. We covered this already....there is a difference between being aware of what sin is, what is wrong, and trying to live Godly....or doing what is wrong and trying to justify it with scripture. Being sin conscious. In TWI would we slap a blanket label of "Religious" on holiness...confused between the two and feel superior in our unregenerate state. I did it too. I was a master at it. It is one of my greatest shames. I am well aware Christians sin....the difference is in how we deal with it as opposed to how we dealt with it in TWI. Being aware of it is a good first step. Being aware of what scripture actually has to say for itself is another place to start. Being aware of who Jesus is...his heart, His character, His attributes...all biggies in the Christians life. Our relationship is with Him....not scripture. For TWI proponents, they should be especially aware in the area of sexual sin, idolatry, and greed. That is because, if you look at the scriptures....those things go hand in hand. How we dealt with these issues is all wrapped up in what we were taught. What we were taught was an amalgamation of justification for one man's desire for sexual sin, greed, and idolatry. We worshiped the bible...but, the bible as taught by VP. It blinded us to Christ. VP taught us occultism as Waysider pointed out. He taught us the arcana as clearly articulated on the snapping thread. We embraced the prosperity gospel....which has its roots in the Word of Faith Movement.....He taught us a bizarre understanding of The Holy Spirit which centered around US and our power instead of God's glory. He relegated Jesus to the hinterlands and replaced Him with the written word via PFAL. The word anti in John's epistles referring to anti-Christ is pretty straight forward...against Christ...anti-Christ. It can also mean to replace Christ with something else. Session 5 of PFAL (I think) The written word replaces the absent Christ. It made sense because we had no where to go...we denied how God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit work as one. So, it fit. We had nothing left but the written word. VP stealthily brought us right there. VP taught us that SIT was our sign of salvation. If we truly believe....the sure word we have is Jesus Christ. We don't need a sign...we believe. SIT is a sign to those who don't believe. He also had SIT so messed up it is sad. Paul, speaking to the Corinthians...who also had SIT pretty wacky....told them they could receive another spirit. Read it in context . It could have been written about TWI. VP taught us a partial gospel...he focused on Romans 10: 9, 10 to the exclusion of all else. Like it was a magic formula. Peter said, Repent. There is more to the gospel and salvation than simply a verbal confession. It is a life altering belief and change. One, which will be reflected in our lives. There is a difference between an abrupt personality change which happens when one is influenced by packaged persuasion and cultic mind bending...and that of true transformation. I had that confused for years...unable to see that true transformation didn't allow for despising holiness. I could go on about what he sold us as truth which has not been known since the first century. It was a big pile of ....... Thanks though johniam. writing these things out helps me. . . .....and it makes me thankful I got out.

Life comes at you sometimes and all the positive confession in the world doesn't change that reality. It is better to feel your life than hide behind some bogus "Law" of believing....numb and in fear. Somewhere in the scriptures it says "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven. . . " Okay, it is in Ecclesiastes. Even in the sad and difficult times....there is life. God is still there in the sadness and sorrow. It is EXHAUSTING to try and put a "happy" spin on every little thing. Sometimes. . . . it just bites.. . . and you just have to plow through it. Oh, and if praying in the name of Davy Crockett is too much of a starting point(I personally love it!!) try praying in the name of Jesus...then fake a hiccup and leave them hanging there.

I need to order that book. I have read the excerpts and listened to the interview....it is disturbing. He was disgusting.

David danced before the Lord. David didn't have shame before the Lord he had joy. Are you telling me David was behaving immorally before God? Or ...are you somehow trying to draw a parallel between myself and Michal? Johniam....this is one of my favorite parts of scripture....David dancing with all his might.....why? Because I know what it is like to have joy in the Lord.... David was worshiping God. Not watching pornography. Do you actually equate the two things? You don't see anything wrong with a bunch of men who call themselves followers of Christ getting together to celebrate a wedding, by watching pornography. A-okay with God, despite the numerous scriptures I can show you which say the opposite? How can you twist scripture like that? One might think you were twisting scripture to justify behavior. Where does that come from? Never mind...I took PFAL many times myself. I get it. You must have hunted all day for that one! Did you happen to read all the verses that actually do address sexual sin while you were searching for that one? Did you let the Word of God speak to you?

A little But.... When we left....it really was like suddenly waking up. What did it ....was simply hearing some of the secrets. Some of the things that went on behind the scenes. It fell together, because it explained a great many things that were peripheral . I remember the limb guy saying....don't come to me....I am not qualified to tell you anything. This is what my family is doing....but, you have to decide for yourself. That was a shocker!! It was like scales just fell from our eyes. It really took just hearing some of the secrets...and then hearing a Voice Mail from LCM ranting like a loon and putting sailors to shame. I remember thinking "He is actually insane." Of course.... I have been struggling off and on ever since!

How nice, God finds my attitude disgusting. Did he give you revelation? Let me ask you this johniam.....if you were going to say.....invite the Lord Jesus Christ.....to one of those "believer's" bachelor parties you mentioned. How would you word the invite? "Hey ....Jesus the Christ . . . .the holy one of God.....a couple of your devoted followers and I are getting together to celebrate the sanctity of marriage.....nothing to big....gonna hang out and watch some porn"...."You in?" If you liked me johniam...I would be pretty worried. But, I can take heart...along with Billy Graham and seminary students who God also has a problem with, among others you have mentioned......I am in good company.... . VP on the other hand....golden and good to go. I am not morally superior to anyone....I am a sinner....which is why I need a savior. The one who you should not only believe is moral but who also teaches us what it means to be good. Me, I have to rely on Him. I have not given you my personal take on morality....I have been steadily giving you scripture. Who is it you really have a problem with?

Johniam wrote something about seminary students...it seems like ages ago, but it is really only a few pages back. He wrote " their minds have been numbed to the point that they don't believe the bible is literally the word of God they're supposed to be subject to. It's just a sampler plate from a buffet to them. No actual submission. At least, that's the goal." I had a bunch of bible college students here this past summer for a bachelor party. They had a nice dinner out, came back had a few beers and a fire outside. Most of them are musicians as well as training for some sort of ministry. They played music....hung out and at the end of the night they prayed together. The young Pastor(a real one) who did the ceremony, is a good friend and he was there to watch over the guys and celebrate with the groom. These young men don't need too much in the way of supervision, they keep each other on a pure path. They are accountable to each other. Funny thing, you can term them actual "believers" and guess what? NO pornography at the party. None of them would ever allow it. They submit and are subject to that odd little thing in scripture that tells us to flee sexual immorality. It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; . . . 1 Thess 4:3 This one is for the Word of God is the Will of God crowd....and there is no caveat for "believer" bachelor parties. Often in scripture, the word which is translated into sexual immorality is the word "Pornos or Porneia. Can we guess what English word we get from that? In Corinthians Paul speaks of a previous letter he wrote to them advising them not to associate with sexually immoral people. So, the Corinthian church lived in a little bubble, they stopped having contact with the outside world. Yet, they were more than surrounded by the sexually immoral....that is because they were all in the church! It was so bad...they even scandalized the Pagans. Sound familiar?

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness... ". . .This old guy got a boner and, well, ok never mind, but I do remember VP saying that Linda Lovelace made a movie with a German Shepherd and that the dog was smarter than she was; it was trying to get away. Don't remember anything about a horse. Don't remember any references to any movies either. I lived in San Francisco in the early 70s. Saw several porn type movies there. Since then the only porn movies I saw were at believers' bachelor parties. CF&S was NOT serious porn. I kind of admired that a church bred guy would dare to present sex that honestly. I saw many examples of parents and children taking the same CFS class. Wouldn't quite be the same atmosphere in a church ." Wouldn't be quite the same in a church atmosphere? What exactly was it VP was going for that a church would detract from this godly and honest "class"? (Where is that puke icon) I was disheartened by the nose dive this thread took with this post by johniam....it took us right back to that place we all have managed to escape. There are some wonderful thoughts on this thread....but, here we are again......wallowing in base conversation...I guess that is what happens when one discusses VP and PFAL with a "Believer". Believer in what?

The whole post was great...but this really resonated with me. . . . because the above statement is what I have not been able to put my finger on. It absolutely is a mechanized approach!! I believe we also brought that approach to scripture in general. I think that is how we were able to miss so much....and why the gospels seemed liked such a difficult read. At least they were for me. Even now, sometimes I read them and think...."WHAT did He say?" With the notion that A & B must equal C. . . . we started out looking for C. Instead of letting the Word of God speak to us...... we started out with a premise "C" and assumed we already knew it. Then we had to jam it into scripture to fit like a hand in a glove. We did this at the expense of scriptures that didn't fit and we had to twist the meaning of much that just plain contradicted "C". In the process, I know I missed the subtlety of scripture and the layer upon layer of depth there for us to glean. That depth is how God opens the eyes of our understanding and pierces our heart......no wonder there was little Godly transformation in TWI. We made it up as we went along, and it followed the path of these "leaders" true inclination.. brutish. If we begin with the assumption we have the knowledge and we are just trying to see that in scripture......we miss it by a mile. But, in our weakness and inability to understand, genuine meekness, God works to enlighten us. None of that takes place going by formulas. The bible is not a scientific formula and we are not trying to prove something in approaching scripture....we are trying to find something. With the scriptures WordWolf posted.....they speak quite plainly to us. They have a point of view. That point has depth. Not only does Jesus speak about the evil nature of causing one to stumble......and alludes to serious consequences....but, look at the language He uses to speak about believers. Little ones.....that is tender, loving language. He also uses sheep, He called Israel little chicks, but little ones fit with what He said about becoming as a child. Mark 10:15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." If we don't come like a child, we don't come at all. Children are helpless, children are needy, children have no contribution or agenda..... we come trusting like a child, resting, and empty handed. When we are born into this world we learn, we acquire wisdom, we grow up. Funny thing....as we grow older, we usually realize as we learn more and more....we know less and less. When we are born-again....that starts all over. When scripture speaks of endurance or growing in patience and that perseverance is required....it is not about our strength or the strongest surviving......we are weak and helpless as children.....we need Him to be strong and we need to trust Him for teaching us patience and that He will finish His work. Perseverance is all about true faith in Him. Trace it back in scripture. Godly trials are a matter of trust. On the other hand...the person who causes a child to stumble.....abuses a child in the name of God......a little one......that person is not only in a whole bunch of trouble....but, doesn't have clue one about God. Why would anyone listen to a word they have to say about God?

Why is it that VP preyed on youth? For the most part that bolstered his exaggerated numbers. Young and inexperienced youth. Why separate families....why the isolation.....and why the continuous concentrating on the minutia in scripture? Something like....hmmm....an example might be......teaching on the word "of" for 5 hours. Maybe to keep us numb and away from the people who had a few brain cells left to rub together. It is no wonder he had to keep us from other Christians....they knew exactly what he was. The money would have dried up quickly if we actually listened to those darn unbelieving believers.

No, that was actually JESUS who said in this world you WILL have tribulation and that was the Apostles who were beaten, imprisoned and died martyrs deaths. Along with countless others throughout history. Do you even read the scripture which is quoted? Do you know why the Apostles died the way they did? It was as a witness. For you. There is a mammoth difference in being persecuted for ones faith and being abused by a man who uses God as an excuse and justification for sexual molestation and immorality. Johniam....this is some pretty frenzied logic even from you. God's deliverance is from the kind of sin VP embraced....not avoiding persecution, suffering for His name sake or trials which help us grow in faith. Those trials God promises us as well....and also that he will deliver us in His way. . . . God's wisdom? And....He not only tells us we will have tribulation...but we are to be happy when we have trials!!! Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 2 Timothy 3 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and IMPOSTERS will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. BUT the Lord actually warns us about men like VP. Scripture tells us they are baaad men. Scripture warns us to avoid them. They hurt people. They prey on the weak and untrained.....they satisfy their own lusts. Go read it for yourself. It is all over the epistles.

I think the SNAPPING thread has to be just as informative as any article or thread on this site. I must have read that thread 5 times. I even looked into some of the claims made......and I knew some of the information before I even saw the thread. Whoever the poster was who put that information together....I am very thankful to him/her. It should be enough to get ex-twi still wedded to VP theology to start to consider there may be a problem and that there may be something else to Christianity. Unless you just toss the whole PFAL/TWI thing out...like I did....and start over....it is worth investigating whose intellectual property VP "borrowed". Are these teachers you would have been drawn to had VP not just wholesale packaged their work? For me....not now....including Bullinger....who has some good and much that has been seriously questioned. We still have a Companion Bible somewhere...I think? Maybe we tossed it. There were bad memories attached to it as a very nasty piece of work disguised as a "Reverend" gave it to hubby. Someone recently mention the dear departed fellow here on the forums and I choked on my coffee. There was a time when I would have been attracted to more Word of Faith theology, but not any longer. Keynon said something to the effect.....the cross has no salvation in it. It is a place of failure and defeat. Many of these word of faith teachers miss what happened on the cross and seem disgusted by their own purchase price. I don't get it. I just know I don't ever want that again. Much of it is dressed up occultism. Why not just embrace the occult if that is what one is attracted to? They take the added step of eschewing Christianity....and redefining it to be palatable to their natural inclination. I fell for it once....why keep going back or wade there? It never did us any favors IMO. Worth looking into ....at the very least. Oh, and the kicker...most of the people he "borrowed" from....trinitarians. Still makes me laugh.

Well, then Jesus was a great failure, because He prayed with great drops of blood as sweat....and His cup didn't pass. Paul, who basically carried out the second half of Jesus ministry.....did not have his thorn in the flesh removed....and along with the other apostles was beaten and imprisoned time and again. With the exception of John....who was not sent to Club Med, the Apostles were martyred. Peter died a horrible death, we believe after watching his wife suffer a similar fate. You are going to be hard pressed not to find persecution, violence, or suffering, from creation on in scripture. The only person who was called upright and perfect before God...Job, went through a horrible trial of human suffering. He didn't do anything wrong....and you know what? He never found out why. Escaping "negative" situations is not what gives us peace. In fact, we are promised persecution and suffering for His namesake.....that is one of the promises of God. The peace that is promised us....stems from a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is about our safety in Him...not this life. According to scripture....God has a pretty poor track record of keeping people safe in this life. Jesus presents us blameless and spotless before God...not this world. The devil knows scripture.....and is more orthodox in his understanding than we were in TWI...he has a relationship with Jesus Christ. He even believes.....he believes Jesus is exactly who he says he is.....he knows it. It doesn't mean he welcomes God's plan The promise of God in scripture is that His plan of redemption will be fulfilled and no opposition will stand against it...not the devil, not any governments or ruling body......that does not mean that everyone is going to welcome it. There will be opposition....there always has been from the very beginning. Nothing can separate his children from His love, but that doesn't mean we will not suffer, tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." Why is it speaking of being killed all day long? Even though these things may happen, and they do happen to Christians.....they don't separate us from the love of God. If our peace and our safety is dependent on our believing or our prayer, or our reading of scripture....we are already lost. We are most men miserable if in this life only we have hope in Christ. What do you think that means? They were suffering, but knew, it was not about their best life now. Not an easy sell right? But, there is something infinitely greater that we do have to share. Jesus Christ. A person, not a set of principles for victorious living....and a promise worth losing your life to find it. John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

John 6:51:I AM the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever John 8:23: And He said to them, You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life. John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. John 10:9: I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:11: I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. John 10:36:. . . because I said, I AM the Son of God? John 11:25: Jesus said to her, I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. John 14:6: Jesus said to him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 15:1: I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. John 19:2: Do not write, The King of the Jews, but, He said, I AM the King of the Jews. Acts 7:32: Stephen speaking of Moses' encounter at the burning bush "saying, I AM the God of your fathers-- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Acts 9:5: And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And the Lord said, I AM Jesus, whom you are persecuting. *************************************************************************************************************************** IF Thou art the Son of God command that these stones be made bread (Matt, 4- 3). IF He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. (Matt 27:42) IF Thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross (Matt. 27: 40). IF He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner. Let Him save Himself IF He be the Christ, the chosen of God (Luke 23: 35). Tell us IF You are the Christ, the Son of God! (Matt 26:63) IF You are the Christ, tell us plainly (John 10: 24). *************************************************************************************************************************** I told you, and you do not believe. (John 10:25)

How about a hefty helping of millet? Yummy. Forget it......I am ordering Chinese and watching Big Love.

and not original...the Moonie's do it too...... along with lots of other cults. You just want to believe it too because .....who doesn't want to hear "You're the best!". A year later...the same people can turn on you like ravenous wolves. Really sincere love.

I am confused by why you give the glory due God...to TWI.....we are not supposed to be won over to a *ministry*....or even to a book.....and that is not what gives us a chance to choose Jesus Christ. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. He convicts us of our sins....which is what leads us to repentance and the acceptance of the Savior. You have to know you need one, before you can accept Him. The process of salvation originates with God and He is glorified.....God calls us to repent. He was compassionate in giving His son while we were dead in trespass and sin. He meets us where we are....and then tells us to turn around and go the other way....we are headed in the wrong direction. Our only "chance" is the Holy Spirit. John 16: 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. Do you really think we got a "better" understanding of the absent Christ in TWI? We did use His name at the end of a prayer....but, did we ever talk to Him? Or did we replace Him?