geisha779

". . . so why should I think what they have to say is any more accurate than what they've already discarded." Well, this is why of course.... From the forward of Are the Dead Alive Now...Having for so many years personally investigated all fields directly and remotely associated with the subject "Are the Dead Alive Now?" the author presents this Biblical research work with logic, Biblical depth, and spiritual insight. . . . . . . (The other losers are)Thus, lacking accurate Biblical knowledge, they fall prey to counterfeit phenomena which to the unknowing appear innocent and genuine... OR This.....From JCNG... Ever since then I have searched to understand this doctrine which has been considered the cornerstone of Christianity for the past fifteen centuries. I have had access to and have read the major works in systematic theology both of the past as well as current publications. For years I have done my utmost in evaluating whatever I could find to read plus directly studying with Biblical scholars. I have asked theologians of unblemished character to discuss the trinity with me, yet I never found more substance than what my child-hood pastor, Dr. L. H. Kunst, told me 42 years ago: "No one can explain the trinity. We simply accept it by faith." I think what I will do is look for myself, draw my own conclusions and believe what I believe without VP's great scholarly experience, advice, or "trance inducing homiletics" Maybe I will be held accountable for what I believe for myself? Could be. One thing I am not going to do is trust VP to have done me any favors. And for the record...there are many wonderful theologians who give great insight into an understanding of the trinity. I have no idea who he talked with, but he missed some works of systematic theology and forgot to knock on a few doors to his "contemporaries". Maybe it was when he was busy taking all those courses at Moody Bible Institute. Did he ever claim to speak to C.S. Lewis? That is a conversation I would pay big money to hear.

Twinky, When you have time could you elaborate a bit more on how you glean from that verse 1 Timothy 2.1 how we have the same right to intercede in the same manner? I am having a problem following that along. I too believe the power is vested in Christ and is through the Holy Spirit. They are not strangers to one another. They work as one according to the will of God. God is just ,so why would He vest that power in us, as we cannot see everything? We do not have omniscient knowledge to see into the hearts of others. God works all things together for good ....see where I am going. The things that God has foreknown or predestined, are not ours to understand, and we could demand something He does not will. We are subject to His will, He is not legally obligated to ours? I am confused. I am not arguing with you, but I don't understand how this fits. Maybe I am not really getting what you are saying or how you are making the leap from Timothy 2:1 to some kind of "Sonship" right. I don't even think Sonship right is a scriptural concept is it? And just a note from personal experience....sometimes the worst thing can happen, God can give you just what you have asked for...no mistaking it...tough way to find out...you were not asking for the right thing!

I recognize some of the names associated with CFFM and I knew a few of them back in the day. We were in the same branch. A few of these people, to me seemed like genuine, down to earth people. I have heard the spectrum on personal experiences with Kevin G. but, I remember nice things about him. They, for the most part seemed like kind people. Far more kind and good than I was. They probably still are in many respects. However, aren't we talking about an offshoot of a rather devious cult? Didn't they learn to understand scriptures the same way we did? There is a particular and blinding understanding of the bible which is associated with TWI. It was culled from a myriad of sources and thrown together with a less than altruistic motives. Look at the man who hobbled it together. In fact, it doesn't hurt to examine the men whose intellectual property he stole. It also doesn't hurt to really examine some legitimate criticism of them. TWI has a very cloying theology which is difficult if not almost impossible to overcome. Which in part, is why it is so problematic for many to assimilate into the Christian community. I am not just speaking of the biggies. We used the same phraseology as Christianity, yet we held these terms with a subtle but far different understanding. Not to be too obvious, but someone is right, and someone is wrong...or someone is at the least closer to correct. Why would we be so wedded to that theology and understanding that we would want to pursue it beyond our initial experience with a destructive cult? It was the theology or explanation of God which allowed for such an embracing of sin. When that was exposed there was violent swing into legalism. For many, it took leaving the cult, and for some faith entirely to find some peace. There is a characteristic associated with TWI, and I would imagine these offshoots....that is really a tough one to recognize IMO. Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Meaning Jesus Christ. Christ is not a part of TWI theology. There is no real relationship with or understanding of who Jesus is....but, that is what the Christian faith is....a relationship...and our relationship is with God through Christ. Not with the written word, but with the Word, Himself. We were always going one step more...one class more....one program more....but, it doesn't work like that. The more one learns, the more one realizes we don't know much right? We can always learn more. Yet, with a faulty basic understanding, which allows us to consign such a different meaning to things....there is no arriving at a knowledge of the truth. Christ. So, why keep trying with the same understanding, the same people who learned as we did, from the same false teacher? He was the one who gave us our understanding of scripture and God. VP was who planted that thought process and blinding theology through the PFAL series and the life encompassing Way Ministry. Why would we keep going back? These guys were in the same cult we were....raised up in the same "Way". Who are these people trying to teach others? Where did they learn? We are really going to deny 500 years of reformation because of PFAL? Not me.

Who would have thunk it? Using bible verses in a confidence scam. Where ever did he come up with that? From a victims story..."He had all of the answers to our questions and the paperwork and numbers and names to back it up and the bible quotes were perfect. We were wined and dined and we gained his trust and friendship." Love bombing and using bible verses while manipulating someone to get their money....oddly, this has a familiar ring to it. The irony, to think of someone defrauding people while using scripture to assure them, might just be what causes TWI some serious pain. Yep...reality bites sometimes.

Notice he didn't really have any peers other than those family members and a few close friends he dragged along with him. Outside of TWI almost everyone that knew of him, knew he was a phoney. He didn't attend Pastor conferences or fellowship with anyone other than his sycophants. No peers. Basically everyone was on to him outside of TWI. He had to keep reinforcing the "dream" and keep an iron grip on the kingdom. He burned all his bridges and he himself had no where else to go. Where exactly do ex-cult leaders retire to? Florida? I know deposed cult leaders can always go to Home Depot. That would be a great commercial for Home Depot and their diversity practices in hiring from all walks of life.

Kit... I love your tender heart. Scripture tells us we are to be as wise as serpents and as tender as doves.....which is a two fold proposition. I am sure I can get better at both. I hope the following explains my thinking to you clearly and shows you we do have some common ground. I am not going to keep discussing this though....there is a disconnect between us somewhere. Hopefully you can at the very least, begin to consider where I am coming from. I worked with VOM (Voice of the Martyrs)for a few years and I still write letters for them. If you don't already and would like to do something, that is a nice way to reach out to the persecuted church. VOM has a list of prisoners and the addresses of where they are being held. VOM even has a translator available on their site and you can choose the encouragement you would like to share. It only takes a few minutes and a few cents for stamps. My son knows Toby Mac who was with DC talk....I have met him, he is a very sweet and down to earth guy who loves the Lord. You are not telling me anything I don't already know or have not already been emotionally invested in for some time now. The persecuted church has been crucial in my deliverance from the TWI mindset. It is pretty intense to be involved in serving the persecuted church, it changes ones perspective and it is a real faith building yet humbling endeavor. I encourage anyone to check out VOM.The faith the Lord gives to those who are so brutally persecuted is awe inspiring....isn't it? What did we learn from VP about martyrs? Do you remember? What did he say about those called to that kind of suffering? Did he say they were there because they didn't have ENOUGH "believing" or faith? In essence that it was their own fault? I remember him speaking disparagingly about martyrs. While in TWI I never once prayed for them or gathered items to send them in an Action Pack....or donated a bible to get to them. I thought they were disobedient to "the word" disobedient to God and that is how they got caught and killed. Besides, they believed the trinity and therefor were idolaters anyway. I learned to think that way in TWI. I learned to think that way from VP, a man who claimed to speak the real and right truth about God's word. I told you. Those who persecute and kill Christians kill the body, a false teacher steals the soul. People who truly follow Christ do not themselves persecute the brethren.Those who are outside the church and have evil motives do. Do you understand what I am telling you? VP lead us into a form of persecution against Christians, against God's most precious of people, martyrs....and he did this in God's own name using God's own words. That is not just an error, that is evil. He lead us right out of the church and into persecuting all other Christians by espousing a false and twisted understanding of faith. There are many examples for us to examine which illustrate that we were lead away from the church and away from Jesus and away from salvation in the Lord, and away from Christianity. Consider, it took the Lord blinding Paul and knocking him to the ground to get his attention. That was mercy, but, VP, was never was knocked to the ground by the Lord....that is judgment. God has both mercy and judgment and it is his prerogative to whom He will show mercy. We don't choose for God, we pay attention. Now, just consider with me for a moment. . . . please...so you understand what it is I have been going on and on about......if we were lead away from the church, away from God, away from a pure understanding of Christ, what is it we were lead to? We embraced something right? We had a confession of faith. Sadly, we embraced something in which we could easily believe that martyrs didn't have faith. We embraced something in which we could so easily disparage ALL other Christians. We embraced something that blithely allowed us to call God's true servants idolaters. We embraced something that excused sexual sins... which are among God's greatest "pet peeves". We embraced something which discouraged holiness, and we embraced something which allowed us to treat others with disdain, in some cases abandon our families, our friends, our futures, that is at best. At worst we embraced something that allowed us to abandon Jesus Christ and replace Him with a set of principles and laws which we thought would save us. Kit, VP was not a Christian. He was opposed to Christians and he boldly opposed Christ. I am not judging VP by consigning him to hell. He claimed to be thee teacher of the true scriptural understanding not known since the 1st Century. He claimed God told him he would be. I am judging what he taught me, what he did, what he believed and what he taught people about Jesus Christ. I am judging where he lead me. I am judging what I am supposed to be judging according to the scriptures. I am doing this so that I can keep myself from false teachers. They are bad people. I do this as God instructs so that I can avoid them. I am doing this so that I can warn others. God has already articulated His judgment for such men in scripture, men and woman who use Him to lead people away from Him. He has clearly articulated, graphically articulated, and unchangingly articulated their judgment. I better judge their actions, their faith and what it is in, their words and their deeds, so I don't follow them into their judgment. I am held accountable. Again, and for the last time. We are warned to leave them alone, avoid them, and to let God deal with them. We should not be in a place where we are trying to forgive them and when God delivers us, and He is able to deliver any of us, then we can have praise in our hearts for God and realize the magnitude of His mercy in rescuing us. He is glorified in that .... He is not glorified in our trying to do it for ourselves. We don't go where we are warned to stay away...there is a reason for that. Be aware of who they are, leave them alone, avoid such men, praise God He is so merciful....and leave it to Him to deal with the rest.

That is part of that whole twisted logic they espouse. In fact, that is the way an addict rationalizes things. It is never their fault ....there is always someone else to blame. Sounds good too unless you really think about it. Why hurt the children? Well, that is a big assumption with a great big assignment of blame on the wrong party. It is really devious just like an addict who wants to keep on using. Gotta rationalize it and silence those who may tell you it is bad for you. That was really astute BA...I would have glossed over that and just been disgusted with them.

Yeah, I have to actually agree with you. A poster here once described it as "VPW's plagiarism that he so skillfully presented via rhetorical grandiloquence of his trance-inducing homiletics." On the plus side....cult indoctrination is not without its benefits.....it can produce disassociation, anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies, PSTD . . .. The list is long and distinguished. And we thought it was just fruit of the spirit!

Linda, I like you too.....but, my tone was firm not harsh. I went back and fixed it so it reflected that more clearly. I understood what Kit said the first time she posted. I explained to her what I understand from scripture and have just done so again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am very aware that Jesus' sacrifice was big enough for the sins of the world. I also understand how precious the Lord is in the Father's sight. More so than I can ever articulate with words. Those are waters that run very deep. The Lord is very precious to me too and our price is not cheap. That is why God requires something from us for forgiveness. To place our faith in the Lord. There is no other way to forgiveness if you believe the scriptures and have acknowledged the Lord in your life. We are not first in God's sight . Jesus is. We are not the center of God's universe. Jesus is. It is He who holds all things together. God will honor His Son and requires us to do the same. Knowing and believing this, one would think we would understand a few things. That God is not going to bypass the Son to forgive unrepentant sinners without them first acknowledging their need for forgiveness......repenting(being sorry and changing) acknowledging the Son, kneeling before Him as Lord, and trusting Him as Savior. A direct result of this transformation of heart is going to be evident in ones life. I don't need a back story. I can listen to what they tell me about Jesus Christ. And again I have to ask about this forgiving for oneself.....is that loving? It seems rather self-serving to me. If we are to forgive as God does....then we need to understand how God does forgive. Ephesians commands us to forgive as God does. Jesus articulated exactly how God forgives when He said if your brother offends rebuke him, if he repents forgive him. Jesus is the rebuke to sinners. God does not forgive them their sins against Him without repentance. ALL sin is against God. But, we should do this for ourselves? So, we can move on? We can move on anyway and calling evil .... evil....is not bitterness. God does it all the time. I don't hold bitterness against VP or TWI and I even pray for LCM. But, I don't forgive them for the evil they continue to do. I know good from bad. Right from wrong. I can't close my eyes and say....they keep doing it, but I keep forgiving them. Maybe some of it might sink in if they hear it?? That would be a good thing. We are to reflect God's sea of forgiveness....okay, how will God forgive people who want to jump on in? Will they jump in without acknowledging they are wrong? Will they jump in without being sorry? Will they jump in without honoring Jesus Christ? As for God judging. He does and he thought it pertinent enough to share it. Why would He do this? One thought springs to mind. So we are not ignorant and follow some blind guide into a pit. We don't have the power to condemn another, but we do have the ability to condemn ourselves. God is so gracious in warning and if we trust Him, we take Him seriously. If we know Him, we understand He is not pliable. He is unchanging. He warns us to stay away from them and let Him deal with them. yet, He DOES say it is our job to judge rightly...to be aware....to warn others. He has shared His judgment with us for our understanding. He has given us the tools so that we are not tricked. He does hold us accountable. Edited to be less harsh.

Kit, What are you talking about? I think I am being reproved for something, yet, I am being reproved by someone who it seems has not taken the time to really examine what I am saying. You have not addressed one thing I have said from scripture. What is TWI or who is Victor Paul Wierwille to you? What does Jesus say about false teachers, what does Paul say , what is said in Jude and what does 2 Peter say.....along with Titus, Timothy, Romans, 2 John, Galatians, Colossians, Thessalonians and basically the entire Old Testament in dealing with false prophets? And we must make sure that part of our own judgment does not include being able to tell a false Apostle from a true one and deal with them according to what scripture tells us. Revelation does not speak of the great white throne of guessing games? Is your idea of Christianity one where someone can blaspheme God, deny the Holy Spirit and deny the very Lord who bought us, yet use God as a reason for moral debauchery? Mine is not. I love God far too dearly to ignore this and continue on in some half-baked understanding of scripture. I also love ex-way people far too much to come on here and espouse something that is not true. My heart is that those who seek Christ, but have been deceived by a man who handled the scriptures so deceitfully, are delivered from his false teaching and brought out of the cult mindset and into Christianity. The scriptures tell us that false teachers teach what? Doctrines of devils. Can it get any plainer for you. Is that a bit of judging or is that telling the truth? VP was not a brother in Christ and we can understand that IF we understand the crystal clear warnings in scripture that articulate WHAT to look for in a person's life which will expose them for WHO they truly are, that would be their actions and their immorality. God does not reserve his worst judgment for Christians. Once we understand this, we can begin to examine the doctrines and twisted understanding we were exposed to in the PFAL series and myriad of other heresy affirming classes and programs TWI has to offer. Not to mention the psychological manipulation and the subtle persuasion that messed with our heads and convinced us of things against our will and normal inclinations. I went into TWI a fairly moral person....I came out cussing like a sailor and having the compassion and understanding of a gnat. I put a cheap value on life because of their teachings.... I justified my sin and I assumed I was a Christian when in reality my heart and understanding was opposed to God and the scriptures. I had an aberrant understanding from my sojourn in TWI under the tutelage of a master manipulator. I am not alone. Knowing that VP is not a brother who erred, I have to wonder why it is you are telling me about pulling the beam out of my own eye before judging a brother. Advice that you might take until you really look at what it is I am trying to articulate to you from scripture. False teachers are self-condemned. I am not condemning them. They are already judged. I am not judging them. Paul called them servants of Satan. Is that judging because Paul didn't understand he too was a sinner?? He said he was chief among sinners. Jesus told us to beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Well Kit, if they are disguised as angels of light, which scripture also points out....how are we to beware? If we forgive them without their repentance what are we saying about God? Should we let others keep on following them without warning? That is really loving. No it is not, here is what Jesus said "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." Here Jesus is telling us to judge. To judge rightly. John, the Apostle known for being the most tender said, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" Test them? Test them how? By forgiving them? Scripture gives us the benchmarks by which to test. Their morality and actions. John said, don't even let them in your house, don't feed them or give them drink. Didn't Jesus say he judges us by what we do for strangers? When I was hungry you gave me food? John knew what Jesus said. There is a bit of a disconnect there unless.....there is something in between we need to beware of! Kit, you have no idea of my life or what I do. What I have been doing because of forgiveness. A few days ago, I was riding in an ambulance with someone who I had forgiven and am now serving. His BP was 70/34 and I made sure that if he was going to die...I was going to be with him. I made sure he would not die alone. He is going to die soon. I have been there almost everyday serving and ministering to him. I had him put in an extended care facility because he was unsafe to live alone. In the same facility his mother is recouping from an emergency surgery and life threatening infection. I serve her too...his Aunt is down the hall with dementia. I serve her too and yesterday, I was kneeling at her feet wiping the tears from her eyes as she remembered she was a widow and her husband was gone. It is a privilege to serve and for the Lord to call us to good works. THESE are the true blessings of God. My service now is a direct result of my unconditional forgiveness to someone who wounded me deeply. I GET IT! I have to live it....that is what God calls me to. But, these are the things and understanding that VP robbed people of.....he stole them from people by twisting God's word and putting forth an ugly understanding of love, giving, and charity. He used this ugly understanding to abuse people in the name of God. Yet you espouse forgiveness for him when the scriptures do not? How about a little awareness of what the scriptures are actually telling us? The "joke" is not very funny if we don't judge. I actually do believe in eternal life. I really do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So, to me, none of it is a joke. I really do believe people have died unsaved and were convinced by VP that they were. It isn't a joke to judge rightly. Johniam....get a good study bible. I recommend The Apologetics Bible...it deals specifically with twisted scripture and directly with TWI. Edited so my tone is not so harsh.

Didn't really work for "Dr.Wierwille" now did it. He just considered everything he did as "pure". Sorry, I am still reeling from that link Socrates posted of a letter written by one of VP's victims. " One day I confronted him with what I found, and he responded, "Whatsoever things are pure... think on these things" (from Philippians). He strongly implied that I was thinking evil about it-- therefore in my mind it was evil, even though it was pure to him. He probably made the perfect sex offender, making it seem as though the victim was the one at fault."

That is criminal. Well, maybe not technically, but that is incredible. Make your bed....cure depression? How many people went without proper meds and cleaned dust bunnies waiting to feel better? I shudder to think of the extended and exacerbated suffering. Sounds a bit like Scientology. Has that cult ring to it.

I know this horse has been beaten to death by now, but I have been wondering, did anyone actually look at what Jesus said about forgiveness? If we are to forgive like God forgives then we should know exactly how is it God does forgive. Does He require anything first? Does God forgive those who refuse to repent and accept Jesus as Savior, according to scripture....No. According to scripture that repentance also means change. Acts 26:20 "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds." Jesus said...unless you repent, you will all perish as well. How about those who don't think they even need forgiving? Does God forgive them? According to scripture...No. Jesus spent a great deal of time speaking about this in the parables. Didn't Jesus say about offenses . . . . " If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and comes back to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." Just like God does it. Old Skool made me think of this when he asked why it was different for God than it was people. (Thanks) Ephesians 4:32 is a familiar retemory. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. How did God forgive us? We are to love our enemies. Sometimes when someone is stiff necked(for lack of a better word) the loving thing to do is rebuke them...and wait until a change comes to forgive them. It doesn't mean we don't love them. Sometimes, we love them enough to care about what they are doing. Just like God does. And out of genuine confusion I have to ask..... how is forgiving someone for yourself...so you can move on, even if they don't want it or are not sorry or even think they wronged us, how is that loving, and really, how is that even forgiveness? That just makes it all about you. You can move on anyway...God is able to deliver you. God is every bit as much a just God as He is a God of love. We should actually like that about Him...it is who He is. I don't get it.. . . . . But, the topic has pretty much been beaten to death and I helped.:)

What is God's requirement for forgiveness? What do we have to do to be forgiven? Does God say....no problem....everyone is forgiven? Everyone is covered, but what must they do because the price was so high? Because it cost so much. Do we have to believe on the one He sent? Honor Him with our lives? Place our faith in Him and believe in the sacrifice? God's love is unconditional in that He gave His Son to cover the sins of the world.....God's forgiveness is conditional on a few things though. That is the gospel.

I love it when you attack me personally....I must be doing something right.......so, are you saying the scriptures don't speak at length about false teachers, their judgment, their morality, and warn us? Am I making it up? Or is it that VP doesn't qualify....what scripture really is saying is all about the Pastors who live Godly lives then? Oh, that's right...you think when Paul draws a contrast between fruit of the Spirit and lust of the flesh it isn't a contrast, simply a continuation. That's right, you believe when the epistle Titus is speaking of evil doers Paul is speaking of Christians. Wasn't it you who said Jesus forgave the Pharisees from the cross...was that before or after he accused them of the unforgivable sin? It was you who accused Billy Graham of idolatry I think...yes? Pretty sure it was you who blithely excused pornography among "Believers" after you accused seminary students of not being subject to the word of God and assigned less than noble motives to Seminary Profs....Yesterday, I was hanging out with a few of them for awhile. Made me think of you and your accusation, for about a second, before I went back to a lovely time of fellowship. Wasn't it you who pitifully tried to draw a parallel between David and VP? Yeah it was you. I could go on...but, you speak so well for yourself. Yeah....definitely doing something right. Lest we forget....you were the one who said God found my attitude disgusting...I just didn't know it. That is what happens when someone steps on the toes of your idol...your teeth come out. Oh yes, and that I live in a religious dream because I say the scriptures define morality for us....Oh yeah, that's right....those pesky morals are man made according to you..... Almost forgot.... my favorite...your fascinating take on being aware of sin....that one speaks for itself.

Or it could also be.... that being ignorant of Satan's devices comes when we fail to heed the warning of scripture that tells us to leave these guys alone. Stay away, avoid them....DANGER WILL ROBINSON...this is in part so we don't even get into a situation where we are confused by trying to forgive them for something God Almighty is not even going to forgive them for. False teachers disguise themselves angels of light. Tricky thing... thinking you are not forgiving a true brother. And forgiving false teachers has nothing to do with emotion or your personal healing. God has to deliver us from the pit they lead us into and that begins with recognition of who they really are. We become ensnared and we become blinded by false teachers and false doctrine. It takes hearing about the reality of these men...their doctrines...and definitely their lives to help us begin...untangling. The Apostle Paul spoke more about the lives of false teachers, their immorality, and their wickedness than he did about their doctrines.This is what really exposes them for who they are! They lead people away from Jesus Christ and salvation and their behavior is a reflection of this truth . This isn't about someone breaking a 10 commandment. This is serious. We stay away in part because THAT itself is judgment. Staying away...leaving them alone....avoiding them. That is part of their judgment. Jesus unleashed when God was being dishonored. Doesn't Jesus have forgiveness, compassion, and mercy? You bet. What did Jesus say their judgment was going to be? What did Paul say their judgment was going to be? What did Peter say their judgment was going to be? Were they supposed to forgive them? Instead of we deciding who it is that is going to be forgiven....why don't we actually look at the scriptures and let them speak? Maybe we should know exactly what it is we are trying to forgive? It is not a question of moving on with our lives....we have to do that no matter what.....but it is God who has to deliver us. We don't have the power to forgive them their offense against God and sadly. . . . . we are a part of that offense against God because we are the ones they lead astray. We can now actually heed the warning in scripture and stay away from them. We can actually ask God to forgive us for leading others into TWI. Signing them up for the class... If we know how bad it really is....we can repent!! If we don't know what we were involved in....than we are not going to repent. IF we confess our sins, He IS faithful and just to forgive us. Jesus didn't say things like it is better for a millstone to be hung around their necks for nothing. God's greatest wrath is reserved for these guys.

I had to repent of my sins with God to be forgiven. I need a Savior who stood in my stead........I had to recognize I needed Him and acknowledge who He was. With the parable of the Grumbling Pharisees.......(that is who Jesus is speaking to with the parable of the Prodigal Son).. . . . Jesus forced them to acknowledge that it was better for a repentant sinner than for someone who denies being a sinner and hides behind a facade of hypocrisy. I have never heard someone say Jesus forgave the Pharisees from the cross. Was He forgiving them for being of their father the devil? Did He take back telling them they were not entering into the Kingdom of heaven? That was pronouncing a judgment. Matthew 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. Jesus did forgive those Pharisees who came to Him and He even ate with some of them......Peter actually got on Jesus for offending the Pharisees. . . . . but, not all of them came to Him. The ones who did...He forgave. They were all offered forgiveness time and again, but, they didn't think they needed it. How do we know about the unforgivable sin....it is through the actions and hearts of the Pharisees. I am genuinely confused by why someone would think Jesus forgave them.

Verses in scripture are not just stand alone verses........it is a mistake to take one section of scripture and build a theology. Even the verses in which Jesus taught forgiveness do not stand alone.....they must be taken with the whole.....with all scripture, everything Jesus said and did....and with the whole nature of God. Look at proverbs 26 4, 5. These verses are opposed to each other. One can take either one and make a case. One could start a church based on the folly of fools. They contradict each other. Take a look at what they are addressing. Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor. 4.Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Luke 23:34 isn't found in many of the early manuscripts. Similar to other verses that TWI correctly pointed out were not in many early manuscripts. Which is not really a great feat....any good study bible will tell you this. It is interesting to note though that when Jesus said this....Father forgive them.....the next sentence is "And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." Who divided their clothes? The soldiers who crucified Him. What makes it so interesting and what is pretty amazing is that in verse 47 of the same chapter it tells us 47Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent!". The Centurion, who praised God, BELIEVED and he would have been a Roman soldier. There is a school of thought which states the Centurion would have been speaking for all the soldiers present at the crucifixion. Here is what Jesus did say to the Pharisees..... 34Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father." 39They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, forI came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." Taking one verse at the end of Jesus ministry and saying that nullifies everything else He taught......isn't a good idea.It also denies the attribute of God which is He is just. Titus 1 10, 11.....is speaking of false teachers. Claiming this is speaking of believers is actually just revealing what one truly believes about God. They may have taken "The Class" that would surely fit. But, it is not speaking of Christians. It speaks to our responsibility in opposing false teachers and factious members in the church. These people are self-condemned. Judaizers(Circumcision party) is similar to what Paul was dealing with else where. Timothy dealt with them in Ephesus.

I don't ever really get a chance to tell you this, but I greatly appreciate your posts and your heart. If I were not to forgive others as the Lord commands....I would be telling Him I know better than He and although I have supposedly placed all my faith in Him, I will go my own way on who I forgive. I don't want to do that. It would mean that I have forgotten what I have been forgiven for. I have prayed many times with a burdened heart for those who are held prisoner, as well as their guards and captors. I really do understand what you are telling me. In the same way that I would be telling the Lord I am not listening to Him by doing as He commands......if I were to do something extra biblical and venture where I am warned not to go.....I would still be telling Him I know best. Jesus said about false teachers... "leave them alone." It means the same thing as when God says He "gives them up". God does do that....He gives people up to their own devices." False teachers fall into a very specific category in scripture. We are warned to "avoid such men." The Lord said "Leave them alone.". There is a reason for that. This is not a position we should be in......trying to forgive them. Scriptures warnings are there for a reason. You know, people who persecute and torture Christians or others.....kill the body. False teachers steal the soul. How do we forgive that? We don't. We trust God to deal with them and we do what He says...."Leave them alone."

And just my own personal observation as a Christan. "Leave them" is about the worst phrase you want to hear come out of Jesus.

Concerning VP & TWI......Genuine curiosity here....what did Jesus say about forgiving false teachers? Their sin is really against God. Do we forgive them their sin against God? Is that really possible? Does God forgive them or hold a special judgment in reserve for them? Do we stop pointing to the poison they spread? Stop warning others? Are we supposed to forgive them? Jesus said "Leave them." The phrase in Romans 1 that we are familiar with from TWI...."God gave them up" is the same Greek phrasing/wording...as "Leave them". Matthew 15:13.He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."15 Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." 16 "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17 "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; . . . . False teachers fall into a very special category in scripture. It does not tell us to forgive them. It warns us to avoid them. When we do become ensnared....as we did...God is still able to deliver us from the pit they lead us into.

I think so to...but, not until we get a serious ocular revamp. I catch glimpses now and then.....but, I would not be able to stand the full on light. I am not ready yet. Someday. It is what I look forward to. See, we are not too far apart!

yes. . . . you got it.........and if God has a child...He is pretty much willing and capable of straightening His child out....and keeping him that way....God is not a slacker. Look at Paul. :) He blinded the guy! But hey, it worked. He didn't screw up again.

Jesus pretty much told it like it was...he didn't react...He stated, He declared, and He warned. . . . seems if someone puts their faith in Him....they might actually take Him seriously. If God is unable to keep His own....correct His own....guide His own....and save people from their sins...what is the point of believing? It is a pretty ineffectual God who has unprincipled people like VP standing for Him.