geisha779

Johniam When confronted with a specific question or topic of discussion....your posts usually go like this.....Straw man argument coupled with a few personal barbs thrown in to deflect from topic or self. This is interspersed with the occasional complaint that you are the one being misrepresented, and without providing a sufficient example you have accused others of responding to your posts with twisted logic. Not considering you may be the one with the issue, you have alluded to something far more sinister and ridiculous with vague talk of devil spirits. Add in a few, off color, and usually far fetched analogies, sprinkle in some inappropriate bending of scripture and we are right back in TWI. The only thing missing is extreme profanity. No wonder we stood there and took it for so long...it is frustrating and if we are not thinking for ourselves it can be very confusing. Now it just engenders my pity. I should not have questioned you about your claim...it is none of my business, but, you put it out there, and I felt you were alluding to this being some kind of blessing from God and an example of the abundant life. It is an example of how TWI viewed blessing and an abundant life. I know that it is not uncommon for people to file a claim and keep the cash while doing the work themselves...but, Christians are to avoid what are termed "respectable sins." Sometimes we don't even recognize them. We should be above this kind of reproach, but we sometimes do fall short...I get that....what we don't do is infer something WE did, which could be construed the slightest bit shady, as a blessing from God. People who smuggle BIBLES into China actually wrestle with what they are doing. Your response to the idea of a moral and above reproach God and His followers striving to live as He called us to live....AS HE IS!! Is similar to the one I had in TWI. I would slap the term religious on it...mock it, and then believe I was God's best and that God was deaf dumb and blind to how I conducted myself. I was a master at bringing God down to my level. I never understood this is actually blasphemous.Creating a God in our own image is what idolatry is......

No. He wasn't a oneness pentecostal either from what I can tell. There is a statement of faith on the Christian Training site and it is vague. . . . but, if it is the same BG Leonard than no he was not a trinitarian.. :)

I don't even tell too many people about TWI anymore and it isn't that I am trying to be dishonest, at times it is just too much to explain. Some people just don't understand, but then again, how could they? Most of the time I don't understand it all..... that is why I like to come here. One of the worst moments I had at church no one even knew...except my husband. We came to church early and although we had not signed up for Sunday school we wandered into a class. They were doing a series on cults and I swear, they were covering TWI that day. It was like a Hitchcock movie or the Twilight Zone. I corrected the teacher once, got that look from hubby, and realized, I just didn't want to share the TWI experience. It is not that they would have been mean, but I was sitting in a class warning about the dangers of such a group, what it can do, and how people get fooled because they can't tell the difference. Maybe I should have spoken up, but in those moments I realized a great deal about myself and I basically just wanted to crawl under the pew. It isn't always like that....and everyone has something they were delivered from.....I have heard some that things make my cult life pale in comparison....but ......it can still feel icky at times.

No, I would have to say my question was more about being honest with money than money itself. You handle your affairs how ever you like. If you feel that was an honest use of those funds and somehow that "transaction" was a "good" one and a blessing...... I could care less, but you put it out there, so I asked a question. You claim to know the "word"and insist on giving credit to those who taught you how to understand the bible.....You say your life is better for it...so, holding what you say up to the light of scripture should not be a new phenomenon to you. I just asked...... why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, and you had people to do the work for free. I wondered if you were going to return the money allocated specifically for paying for tree removal? You brought it up. Wouldn't you rent a splitter for firewood anyway? We always do...or we borrow one. Questioning your little diary entry makes me a morality cop? Aren't you the one who spoke so easily of others lack of submission? Does that make you the submission police? With Billy Graham are you the idolatry police? Jesus spoke a great deal about the significance of how we handle money and I KNOW who taught you what the bible said. . . . he handled the bible the same way he handled money......with great self-interest in mind.

Why file a claim if there was no harm, no foul, or no need to pay for tree removal? Gonna send that part of the check back? Who taught you about the bible? Who is the "they"?

And how did they get it? By using and abusing people? That isn't an abundant life.....that is just sad.

Thanks Twinky, It was a few years before I read my bible. I didn't even have a real interest. I still believed I had learned the truth, I still fully accepted Way doctrine(it was doctrine we learned), but I didn't have an interest in reading. When I tried, it was all jumbled. I still was disgusted and confused with the whole thing. Eventually, I didn't even really care if there was a God. I relied heavily on my ability to SIT for salvation! If there was a God, I was in, I was golden.:) But, those pesky circumstances....my kids had friends who were involved in church and Christian camp....so my kids started going. I actually helped run a large youth group while unsure about God, but if there was a God He was just like what I learned in TWI. Somehow, I ended up around some pretty learned people. You want to talk about embarrassing experiences...talk about how many crucified, My God, My God, Are the Dead Alive Now, the gospel itself and the meaning of salvation along with SIT and more..... with people who actually know what they are talking about. Not pretty. To add insult to injury...they were kind in their pity. I was not kind in my superior knowledge. I humiliated myself more than once. Still makes me a bit queasy. I was so sure I knew. . . . and then I wasn't so sure. Then I got curious...and then I read!

I wonder if any of those 1st corps people are on the site designed for the Way Corps only? They all look so young and innocent.

Although you didn't offer it as such this is excellent advice. This is one of the best thing I ever did for myself post TWI...just read and search out things that interested me. But.....it was a conscious effort to stop myself from twisting what the words were saying to fit how I wanted or thought they should be understood. They speak just fine for themselves. Talk about freedom. No more ignoring verses that didn't "fit" or reading them while assigning some really lame reasoning to them. It is nice to learn about Jesus...by His words, by His interactions with people and their reactions to Him, by His manner, by what made Him angry, what moved Him with compassion, and most of all by His tenderness....Maybe that is how we come to know God. Through Jesus. Took a long time to pick up a bible again though....My Way bible creeped me out and I had some strange things in there....esoteric poems that must have meant something to me once....ridiculous and profane quotes by VP, LCM, JAL....same things from RTHST....and oddly...a quote by Thomas Jefferson about the trinity. Why I thought enough about Thomas Jefferson's grasp on the scriptures to quote him in my BIBLE, is beyond me now. It went in the dumpster

VP used us to grow his following and fill his coffers...yet, many of us of lived in poverty as WOWs ....tell me he wasn't good at indoctrination.....he had us believing it was for our own good, ... and he actually got us to pay for the privilege. Evil genius.

Johniam, People know what they are signing up for with the military....and I disagree that going to college is a form of indoctrination...that sounds a bit like rhetoric. Being a WOW didn't promote some kind of genuine evaluation or rethinking, it promoted conformity. Why did 4 of age adult volunteers need a family coordinator? Why did we need someone to oversee and be in charge if it was about genuine evaluation? You shouldn't need someone to crack the whip at volunteers if they are to spend their time rethinking. I was a family coordinator and my job was to get those classes together and run twigs that grew and split. THAT is how I knew I was successful. I was in a limb town with a limb coordinator breathing down my back. He pushed me to run classes. After all, that is what I was there to do!!! It wasn't about moving the word...it was about running PFAL classes...the two are in no way synonymous. "The word" is Jesus Christ. PFAL is a peculiar perspective on the scriptures. Wow was about winning converts to TWI. We were not telling them they could get the word elsewhere....we were it....PFAL was it.....TWI was the only place that had IT. True enough btw. In order to be a a WOW one had to have taken PFAL and that is nearly 36 hours of initial indoctrination already under our belts. That mind set and particular way of understanding the bible had already been established. WOW just solidified that mindset. Bring it back to the blue book, work the blue book....you don't remember any of that? I say burn the blue book and buy a good study bible and a decent commentary. No wonder some people left after the WOW year.....lucky people wised up and figured it out! Wish I had.

Waysider, I went back and looked over my post. I think sometimes I sound harsh, but MOST of the time it is not my intention. :) I hope I didn't come off that way to you. I was just answering your question because I thought it was a really good one and it made me think. I should use those smiley things more!

Waysider, I can see parallels between VP and what is written in scripture about certain kinds of people....those who handle the scriptures with a particular motivation and deal deceitfully with God and people who seek after Him. I think it is spot on myself. Whether you agree with the bible we have, or believe in the God revealed in the scriptures, it does really deal with the human condition. The question of what it means to be human transcends time and culture. This is why so many people turn to the bible for answers. We may not like the answers, but it does have them. It does have an explanation for the existential "whys". We may opt for a different voice, but scripture has a voice. The scriptures also deal with man's relationship to God. Again, you don't have to agree with it....but it does have a point of view, it is there. It is no wonder that it deals with those who claim to speak for God, or claim a special knowledge of God.....and in reality are just bold, ignorant, and arrogant. It reveals them for who they are. So much understanding of the bible was robbed from us....I think in part, because we missed much of the human reactions and interactions in scripture. We were so conditioned to this bizarre understanding of what relationship means it was difficult to understand any of it in a meaningful way. It was very arid, empty, and cold. It was a wasteland. To me, the relationships in scripture are where the really fascinating things are. According to the scriptures....Jesus was the express image of God...yet, He was fully human....and He dealt with people on a very human level. He dealt with people differently, as individuals, in groups....He told one person this and another that....seemingly contradictory things at times. The whys of this are all wrapped up in the human condition and man's relationship to God. It is amazing. He is amazing. I don't believe the bible because it says I have to or I will go to hell. I believe it because it speaks to me. I believe Jesus was the express image of God because of His voice, not because the bible told me so. If it didn't tell me that I would still conclude in reading about Him that this man was the Son of God. Scripture gives me answers to those questions we all have and those answers are still relevant and they relate to being human. It seems right that we would somehow relate our experiences in TWI or with VP to scripture because presumably we fell into the snare of TWI seeking something. Scripture not only addresses what we were seeking....it addresses what we fell into with a pseudo-Christian cult. It addresses the man we fell prey to as he claimed special knowledge of and revelation from God. Yes, he was a con man, but the scriptures lay out a further explanation. A pretty ugly one too. If con man satisfies....then that is sufficient. It isn't sufficient for everyone though. Jesus called Himself the way. Didn't VP explain from Acts maybe, some half-baked interpretation of a verse? Or am I remembering incorrectly...does it say they called themselves "the way"? It could and I just missed it. ....

With interest.....what they owe us is probably a pretty penny.

I was rolling on the floor when Barb and Bill were telling Margene that Goji (sour juice) was a cult...and then Michael Sainte was telling her that Barb & Bill and her family were a cult! Classic. The pamphlets were a nice touch. It is interesting watching poor Barb fall into this moral abyss and justify what she tolerates because of her faith. Too close to home. Kick that bum Bill to the curb...leave him with Nicky. That would be sweet revenge. I am going miss it when it is over, but I started watching Sister Wives on TLC. Tell Tonto to check that out. These people are for real. Big Love the reality show. That husband is a slime too.

It is not out of the realm of possibility. The Worldwide Church of God (Herbert W Armstrong) split after Armstrong died and just like TWI, many people went their own way and started offshoots steeped in the same strange teachings and in adulation for Armstrong. Yet, some of the Church leaders showed real humility and reached out to those "other" Christians and sought help with their doctrinal and structural problems. They went "mainstream"! Hank Hanegraaff has spoken about this at length. I think he was instrumental in reaching out to them. There are many parallels between TWI and WCG under Armstrong. Extreme legalism for the plebs and incredible debauchery at the top. They had similar doctrinal issues as well. Although, Armstrong made VP look angelic in comparison. VP wasn't even great in the warped world of cult leaders. He was a legend in his own mind. It is possible and would be such a wonderful thing. I do believe there are people still held captivated by VP's version of truth....who just want to know and serve the Lord. Maybe some who can have an influence or stage a coup. Maybe this latest scandal is the straw that will break some people. Scripture does say God can work all things...for good. He can also take things people mean for evil and use them for good. Who knows?? What a great thing to hope and pray for.....you just wrote an amazing prayer.....I love it!! :)

Quite a few people have escaped after reading here. That is one of the amazing things about this place....giving others a bit of a lifeline. Letting people know there are other ways to think and even continue on in Christianity without TWI. I imagine having a discussion with a person still somewhat dogmatic in there TWI theology is rather revealing. No, I don't imagine...I know it is. To me, it is fascinating, and I don't judge johniam...I used to be johniam...I have empathy. Let me qualify that....I have frustrated empathy. :)

Wouldn't be the first time I took my abs back from the great horn of plenty. When we left, we took it right out and got our phone turned back on! :)

Johniam is not the only person who reads here...and I would like to think...and have occasionally been told...well, more than once recently....that these types of discussions can be very helpful to others.

Where would the assets go? Seriously, I have no idea who would have control of the money if TWI folded. It doesn't belong to any one person...despite a select few directing its use....where the heck would they turn in the assets? With that kind of cash....those guys are never giving it up. They will hang on to the bitter end.

Johniam, Scripture actually makes a somewhat shocking(to those of us once in TWI) and compelling case, that God doesn't need you or I in the least. God is complete. Not only complete, but replete....as God is overflowing with perfection. He is not lonely. God is already a being in relationship......and His pleasure is in His own perfection. Out of that overflowing good and love..He calls us to share it with Him. He gave us Himself. He is our delight too. The scriptures tell us right up front...For God so loved the world that He gave....why...because we are so lovable? It is out of His overflowing love that He calls us. Not out of any need God has for our hands and feet. It is because He is good. I don't want to shock you, but God does things for His own glory and name. It is not pride, because He is actually worthy. For the sake of his great name the LORD will not reject his people, because the LORD was pleased to make you his own. Paul, who wrote the letter to the Corinthians you quoted also said. "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else." If you look at the attributes of God in scripture, and then look at what God loves and takes pleasure in.... you will find...they are one in the same. God delights in us when we delight in Him....because....that is the right response. he LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love. I have no greater joy than to hear my children walk in truth. If God needed us...He would not be God. If it were possible for God to love or delight in anything more or greater than Himself...He would not be God. He doesn't need us...He is not lonely...He is good and out of that goodness comes our salvation and joy. My personal soap box too!!

The scriptures are actually theocentric, not anthropocentric. johniam you have an extreme anthropocentric theology. Where did you pick that up? How do you just gloss over that it is God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself with a "but"? Who was it that opened Lydia's heart...Paul? No, it was God. Who leads us into all truth? Do we? No, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Who straightened Job out after his friends got done speaking "the word" to him? Who got Paul's attention?...."I am Jesus who you persecute." Speaking to someone about the gospel is not the same thing as reconciling someone to God. We do not stand in the gap. There is no scriptural basis for limiting God to needing our hands and feet. God does not pop in front of people and say believe in me here I am? What was Jesus doing here then? What is it you are telling people anyway? Never mind, sadly, I am all too familiar with the gospel via PFAL. Well, then again maybe you are right...when God speaks it is more a shout. He doesn't even need words! There is not a place He doesn't declare Himself. However, God can speak through a dumb a$ if He wants to.. . .. He can speak through a burning bush... The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. God can allow people the privilege of preparing the way...He is gracious.......but, what on earth did poor God do before we were born? You say all this and yet, you believe someone who claimed God basically popped in front of him, spoke to him and made it snow. What a joke.

Ever implied and easily denied. I can hear it now..."I never said it was God who charged me". It is not his fault if people read into that subtle wording, maybe not really even noticing the implication consciously. It is still there. He put himself in charge. He did learn from the master.

I too hope you feel better Dabobbada You know, I live in an area where there was a "group" from the 1970's .....Brotherhood of the Spirit....they were written about in Look magazine. They had a leader, Rapunzel (Michael Metelica), and they all lived communally. They had their own publications issued from their "Free Spirit Press". Elwood Babbit, a farmer, was their spiritual guru and they listened to him. They had Festivals...Harry Chapin came once and played at one of their festivals. I was too young to attend and was pretty upset about it. A few still do live there at the lodge which they turned it into apartments. It is called the Renaissance Community. Some built houses on the property.... I am friends with most of them. Nicest people you ever want to meet. I love them all. Dabobbada's post could have been written by any of them. Change the names, slap in a few details and it is about the same story. Love, smiles, "spirituality" peace...and remembered good old early days until it went "bad". It all fell somewhat apart with the leaders drug use and outrageous promiscuity. As peoples kids, especially the girls, grew up, they had to keep Rapunzel at arms length. When Rapunzel died of CANCER only a hard core few remained. They regrouped and guess what, they STILL have classes teaching their faith, they STILL promote a certain mindset...that we are all God, and they still deal with life according to a certain set of "Principles". Recently there was a documentary made about this "cult" from the 1970's and sure enough, when speaking with them...they all began waxing nostalgic for the good old days when they saw the miracles, Rapunzel was teaching good things, and the love flowed. The documentary is called Free Spirits, the birth, life, and loss of a New Age dream. Check it out and see if there are not parallels. http://www.acornprod... IT WAS THE 1970's and groups like this were everywhere! Lot's of "love", and little miracles flowed....TWI was not some special ministry from God...it was a direct result of the times and some guy who cashed in on them. It is just special because it was "our" little cult. Oh, I once had a long talk with one of them about spirituality. It was a one sided conversation because he had all the answers and of course knew all about my faith. The whole time, I kept thinking about how we were in TWI...it was so eerie and familiar. I can't help it...whenever I see him coming now, I think to myself, oops here comes "God". Nice guy, he surprised me recently with a load of gravel for a rut in my driveway. Good man...but, he still has all the answers and everyone else is mislead.

Who charged them with oversight? Didn't they put themselves in charge?