geisha779

It wasn't true...I wasn't hearing from God, I was hearing voices, in my mind! I told myself that. :) There was no revelation from God. I was so wrapped up in seeing the world the way TWI theology presents it....I went a little nutty. That is how I processed and filtered information while in TWI...through TWI theology and the filter of seeing the devil behind everything except TWI. Ironic right? Not really very healthy ... is it? Not only did TWI isolate us from society...but, I think it was a gateway for a few mental illnesses!

He did....the devil. I remember once, as a WOW, I thought I got the most amazing revelation from God.....it was Satan who had formed all these other groups, labeled cults, like the Moonies etc...so that Satan could label TWI a cult and that would keep people from the truth. It was shortly after someone reached out to me and told me TWI was a cult. Seriously....it was from God's lips to my ear. My mind was toast and I was so mentally isolated from anyone who could help me.

This has to be one of the most heartbreaking posts I have read on here. I know from experience where it comes from and why we ran into this kind of problem. By not understanding from scripture, how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work as One. This is where that kind of theology leads. To this kind of comment. Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. How? Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. One God.

I know. :) Simon rode along for awhile, in the church.....he even had Phillip convinced he was the genuine thing. Like VP, Simon also "left" the church to start his own "ministry" and took many, many, many others with him. We even have a word we use in theology which is associated with Simon Magus. Simony. Maybe Simon looked around the congregation and saw people defeated...oh wait no...he saw the power of the Holy Spirit and tried to buy it....it was VP who tried to sell it along with the idea of a more abundant life. That is a form of Simony. Too bad he denied the Holy Spirit before trying to sell it to us. It would have worked better if VP actually knew the Holy Spirit. A.W. Pink writing on Saving Faith does a great job with this section of scripture. Well worth a read if you can find it. Peter told Simon, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God . . . I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity" Pretty harsh words. If one believes we are harsh here about VP....check out Irenaeus sometime...I think he called Simon the father of all heretics. I just believed VP and never really looked into it myself. I worked PFAL instead of drawing my own conclusions while reading the bible. That "foundational" thinking we got from PFAL seems pretty difficult to overcome. Sometimes now while reading I wonder....how could I possibly have missed all of this?

Acts chapter 8 gives us a great example of a true and false conversion.....The Ethiopian Eunuch and Simon the Sorcerer....no wonder VP said Simon was saved.

Johniam, If you said that "they" made a law requiring all Americans to pay for health care by 2013 I would have to assume you are speaking about our elected officials. That is because I know whose responsibility it is to write and enact the laws in this country, The other "theys" trying to stop them would be more difficult to pin point. Lobbying groups, other elected officials? It would just be a guess as to who you specifically mean. By the way, I live in a state with mandated Health Care coverage....we are all going to be just fine. If it is the APA (American Psychiatric Association) who is determined to test and medicate all children at two years of age and target the children of Christians in particular.....or the AMA...or the ANA...I assume you would include that information in your post. Maybe some stats. If you mean the congress enacting a law which mandated the testing of two year olds and targets the children of Christians in particular then we run into the problem of established law which allows for freedom of religion. So, who were you speaking about? Is targeting the two year old children of Christians for medication evaluation actually in the care act? Maybe it is and I missed it? BTW, the Psychiatric profession is made up of individuals, with different methodology, and often competing schools of thought.....and it is made up of people of faith as well as those who are agnostic. We Christians get around johniam...those of us who do not mentally isolate that is...we are psychologists, psychiatrists, astronauts, scientists, mathematicians, politicians, Oxford Dons, doctors, lawyers, Indian Chiefs....Francis Collins who co-mapped the human genome is an evangelical, bible believing, Holy Spirit filled Christian. Here is what you said...so I am not confusing your words. Maybe I was reading into it incorrectly, if that is the case...I apologize. I posted recently that psychiatry/psychology has enough clout in today's culture that they are actually allowed to testify in court cases as "expert witnesses" as to why someone behaves as they do. They just explain away spirit possession and get really dangerous people off (like this guy who shot the congresswoman in Tucson) and cause harmless people (many times believers) to be incarcerated. But it doesn't stop there. What they would ultimately like to do is to require EVERYBODY to have a psych exam as soon as they can talk. They'll have their syndromes, their personality profiles, all their 'ducks in a row' and they will decide that some 2 year olds have "dangerous potential" based on that data, so they'll make said 2 year olds take meds that will prevent that so called dangerous potential. They'll likely decide that for children from families with long lines of Christianity in them. Dr. Mengela would have been proud.

Oh come on Waysider...you and I both know who "they" are. The scary "them" remember? THEY were behind a great many things and always out to get "us" because we had all that secret super special knowledge? Ring any bells? Wait, are you implying we don't have to still blindly accept that there is a "they" plotting to get "us"? Maybe, you just forgot how to operate your secret magic spirit powers to see the spiritual realm........ or in our case have a serious case of societal paranoia. Silly Waysider, chant mindlessly in your head for a few months....maybe read the blue book a few hundred times and WORK that TWI material....make sure you cut yourself off from any other influences(they are part of the adversaries "them") .. and it will all come back to you.

I don't mean to sound rude. . . . . and I truly do not mean to be harsh....but, for me, I honestly believe my life would have been better if I never heard any of their names. I could have lived quite nicely without knowing about some old farm in Ohio.

We sounded strange. We even had our own holidays. Do you know anyone else who celebrates Uncle Harry (Burn the chaff) day? I am not very blessed about the whole thing.

Positive Twinky. It was just this past week. Joyce Meyer is a Word of Faith preacher...along those same lines...same influences.....she also promotes the prosperity gospel.

I know exactly what you mean.

I don't know johniam , I think the Children of God probably connected this stuff in a similar and bizzare way and quite well with their followers.....Worldwide Church of God under Herbert W Armstrong...... and even the People Temple at one time. There are still some pretty crazy Word of Faith ministries out there...Benny Hinn for example...and he has a huge following and connects these dots for people in a similar manner as TWI. Kenneth Hagin did....he used to teach that through Christ we too had dominion over the Satanic realm...and the weather!! These men relate this to people on a far larger scale than VP. They are/were far more dangerous than VP because they hide in plain sight. There is no shortage of Word of Faith teachers and preachers out there....and they even offer classes! VP got this garbage somewhere.....and as you yourself say...there is not really much in scripture ....so obviously what is there does have to be seriously extrapolated. Especially if one tries to teach a two week class on it. VP read the list of the top 5 cults at the AC in 1979 and we were 2nd to the Moonies....VP said "We have to be like AVIS and try harder" you know what showed up shortly after? People started wearing buttons with the TWI logo written in the AVIS typeface reading "We try harder" . He also taught 3 Mile Island never happened...it was a government conspiracy. Did you ever have to cough at the AC? Comfortable with it? We turned the radio on the other day and Joyce Myer was telling people that coughing and fidgeting in the seats during her seminars.... was demonically influenced. There is nothing new under the sun. If that is what you are looking for...you can find it. Go for it!

I used to love this song <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mBT53zyyDdE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Why is it...you get this...yet, you seem to claim a differing faith....and the one who claims to know...doesn't? You really do get it.

http://www.precastco...r_believing.htm From J. Juedes About The Way Page....... Wierwille's form of "faith" teaching is the most damaging and unbiblical version. Unlike some teachers, he dubs this "the Law of Believing." His book and class, Power for Abundant Living (PFAL), calls this a law like the law of gravity. It applies to the whole world and dominates everyone's lives, whether they know it or not. In his view, the law is indiscriminate- it "works for saint and sinner alike." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . . ' Wierwille and The Way International (TWI) teach that many nonChristians or atheists operate this law far better than Christians. He says, "The law of positive and negative believing works for both Christian and non-Christian. When we believe, we receive the results of our believing regardless of who or what we are" (PFAL, p. 38). In other words, "the law of believing" is an atheistic system. God is not involved and has no influence on whatever good or evil things enter people's lives. God is a only passive bystander, waiting to see what positive or negative results they get in their lives as a result of their own believing. God is out of the picture and is essentially powerless- he cannot refuse the good or hinder the bad (either for his children or his enemies). God is at the mercy of what people, good and bad, choose to believe. Besides being an atheistic system, the law of believing is entirely man centered. People do not have faith in God- they have faith in faith. Your will and believing, not God's, determine what you get, whether pain or pleasure. The law of believing is inherently law, not grace. God is stingy; He only responds to people's believing and gives no more than what people believe for, no matter how little that may be- or how negative the believing and the results are. There is no room for the grace of God, for God giving us more than we believe for. He "can't" treat people better than their believing deserves, because that would violate the law. God becomes not a Father, but an impassive weapons dealer, dealing out the weapon of believing to all people, Christians or not, to do whatever good or evil they wish to do with it '.. . . .

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zlA5IDnpGhc" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe> <iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UWndDW_271g" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe> <iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NL3NFhmxQxs" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe>

He didn't say he loved his Savior...he said Jesus loved bombed him every day. YOU said you love your savior. His declaration is centered around him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ If someone can ask me why I am not comfortable around God when I sin....bring God down to the level of a earthly father and make some lame comparison, as if that explains God's reaction to sin...it tells me a few things....one, is that they have not clue one about God. Two is...they don't have a clue about what happened on the cross. The Passion of Jesus Christ was our punishment for sin....not His. He stood in our stead. He got what we deserved for sinning against a holy God..Jesus never sinned against God. God took that which was perfect, and poured His wrath out on Him. Jesus had to live that perfect life...He is a perfect sacrifice. God spent His anger towards sin on Jesus....as we know....we are saved from the wrath to come. The cross was God's plan. Not Satan. God did it. He brought it to pass...He sent the sacrifice, just like he always has....look at Abraham and Issac. So, if that was done...sin is no biggie anymore right? All taken care of....no problem if I sin. God is like Obama with a refrigerator? Wrong. It is an even bigger problem because if we understand and respond to that amazing love as we should....what is our heart and desire going to be? Sin is no big deal? I am laid back about it all? Or...... look at that amazing love and grace. Look at our amazing God.....I want to live to serve righteousness and I will battle everyday between the flesh and spirit...but I will not do it alone. He promises to sanctify me....He promises to change me...I am new.....and this desire I have where I want my life to glorify God because I am now His, is not of my own doing. I did nothing to deserve any of it. He bought me with an unfathomable price. I belong to Him. I am no longer a servant to sin. Does Jesus on the cross really look like God is laid back about sin? Seriously? Does God call us to continue on as if He never really cared about the sacrifice of His BELOVED and CHERISHED Son? As if each time we sin, He is chuckling...no, that is an offense against the cross. What are we really saying with that attitude? Everything we have in Christ...is in Christ...not us. Nothing we have, nothing we receive, not even our faith...is because of us.....it is all God's amazing grace. If God is not convicting you of your sin...and instead you think it is okay to be comfortable with Him in it...I would not be so confident that is Jesus love bombing you. Oh, and that is why...what VP did in the NAME of God is such a huge deal...ya think? Not only that ...he was the guy who lead us to self and a man centered theology instead of to the cross and Jesus...which we were too busy tearing down or denying and mocking. Geeze...time to put away that ugly theology...but, then we might start to live in a religious dream...right? Don't want to sound like those "other" Christians...the ones never in a cult.

My husband worked with George Jess a few times...planting trees.....we both have the same strong feelings about TWI...but, he does say that George Jess was a very gentle and kind man...the very little he knew him. Jess taught hubby to plant trees...hubby ended up a Master Gardener. He said Jess knew what he was doing when it came to planting trees. For what any of that is worth to your question. :) I guess I should add..planting trees in TWI had nothing to do with my husband's choice of vocation...that was from years wasted working for some tyrant of a limb leader. By the time we got out...it was all he knew...so he went with it and took to a new level. Sad isn't it?

"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that." I am just confused as to what he means 'have her burned." it sounds like a husband just takes his wife to the local magistrate and turns her over....the husbands do it themselves.. . . it is prosecutable domestic violence in India. Delhi and now other areas have specific task forces dedicated to prosecuting this type of domestic violence.... just like we do. It was long a practice to torture the bride to exhort more dowry money from the brides family......but it is illegal. The Supreme Court of India as ruled a woman's dowry to be her own property and she has absolute rights of them. A husband has to return the dowry if they divorce or he can be prosecuted. And just a point...it is POSSIBLE for any husband to do the same or any wife to do the same...anywhere. Wasn't 'The Burning Bed" based on a true story? So what.... What does domestic violence in India have to do with some cult leader in Ohio abusing women ? One doesn't make the other less brutal? It is just a different face of abuse. It all comes from evil.

You don't really understand what I am talking about ...do you? Okay Johniam, read about Paul being caught up to the 3rd heaven...inexpressable things...Paul's little trip on the road to Damascus...Stephen...which always moves me because the Lord is seated at the right hand of God...He stood for Stephen, a martyr. How about John, who the Lord especially loved... falling as dead before God...why? You do understand it was also faith that saved Abraham...right? That God Himself took the body of Moses...and Elijah(The two that were at the transfiguration?) or that Moses is the one whom God showed Himself to....what happened to his countenance? These men had access to God...God spoke directly to Job from the whirlwind. HE ASKED JOB QUESTIONS!!!! Job said...my ears have heard of you, but now my eyes see you...I take back my words and repent! God spoke to Job friends too! These poor old testament saints...clueless...right? Someone should have told them about administrations. When Romans speaks to being no more servants but sons......what does that mean to you? Because what it is saying.....is...we are no more servants to....SIN!!! Paul, who may have known a little about the "mystery" ....when he wasn't identifying himself as least of all the saints....chief among sinners....called himself a what? Servant. You can use all the WAY catch phrases you like...they are, for the most part, not theologically sound. Haven't you learned anything since you left TWI? Same God. His presence doesn't change and neither does our response to Him and neither SHOULD our response to Him. Once again, you have given us TWI's anthropocentric theology.

Via TWI I actually came to oppose more in Christianity than really understand and become accepting of Christ. I knew who I believed He wasn't ....but, I never knew Him as a real person. . . . I never fell in love with Him so to speak. I said I loved my "Big brother" but, if I related to Him at all it was in a less than reverent way......I was more concerned by how I believed others wrongly worshiped Him, and I was more consumed by the "word" than I was in relationship with the word made flesh. I pretty much missed the entire boat of the Christian faith......but, I was really good at mocking it.

I never asked if you thought people coming together glorified God. You are again, answering a question I never asked or even intimated at, why are you doing that? And didn't Jesus say His burdens were not too heavy? Not sinning should not be a rule or burden...it should be our desire.....and after all Jesus paid a high price for our sin....but, that doesn't mean we should continue in them. And in God's presence I have to go with Job on this one...... Then Job replied to the LORD: I know that You can do anything and no plan of Yours can be thwarted. [You asked,] "Who is this who conceals [My] counsel with ignorance?" Surely I spoke about things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. [You said,] "Listen now, and I will speak. When I question you, you will inform Me." I had heard rumors about You, but now my eyes have seen You. Therefore I take back [my words] and repent in dust and ashes. Job wasn't even being called a sinner by God, he was an upright and righteous man. No, I am not comfortable in God's presence when I sin. . . reason being...I am not in God's presence when I sin....but, when I repent it is another story. Should you not fear me?" declares the LORD. "Should you not tremble in my presence? Comfort is not the word I would use to describe being in God's holy presence at all...awestruck, amazed, joyful, thankful, repentant, worshipful, full of praise....knocked to my knees....are really more apt phrases....and if you take a look at those in scripture who have truly been in the presence of God.....you will find comfort is not a theme. Now, if you want to hold God up to the standard of an earthly father...go right ahead. I find what works better is holding myself up to God's standard. Instead of likening God to Obama...you might want to look at how Jesus was with His Father. Obedient, respectful, worshipful, and humble. In TWI, we did not want God to be holy because then we would have to change.....but He is holy....and when we truly know Him...he does change us and we do want to be like Him. That doesn't mean we are perfect, but our desires change as we are sanctified by Him.

I think of the guilt and pain heaped on people who were less than healthy. Where is your believing? Believing equals receiving, confession of belief yields receipt of confession, believing images of victory.....you must not be believing...I am believing for this.....mind pictures...God won't spit in your direction. . . . staying your mind...renewing your mind...practicing the presence of God.....SIT......out of the abundance of the heart......confess it......believe to be healed. The adversary, the adversary, the adversary .... You are going to die if you leave TWI. The devil is going to get you, posses you, kill you and you will deserve it too. Then they kicked out the most vulnerable and most needy of hearts like they were taking out the trash. Wasn't it VP who said..it was the fear in the heart of that mother that killed her child? People with sick children are already fragile...can you fathom what that kind of guilt and condemnation added to that fragile state can do to a human being? To a marriage..to a soul? It is very dark and evil doctrine they threw around like it was nothing but the gospel truth.

I think so too. I prayed...got what I asked for...no mistaking it as it was very specific...and it set of a chain of learning...I don't ever want to repeat. I like to pray for others, but "thy will be done" is a good rule of thumb. After all, if we really put our faith in Him....we have got to trust His will is best....and we are not going to overrule it anyway. It is still wonderful to pour your heart out and commune with God....He always lets us know He hears us...even if He says no to what we ask. :)

Seems logical right? You pay...you file...done deal. Try filing 3 claims in a 5 year period and see what happens. Insurance companies drop clients who file claims....they say....unless your house burns down....don't file. An insurance adjuster told me that....it is because people file claims...keep the money and often the work goes undone or is half done. Rates go up when claims are filed. It doesn't matter how long you pay into a policy either. They will drop you. Once you are dropped it is difficult to get re-insured without paying a fortune. My state actually has an agency who has to insure you on a specific underwritten policy. IF you don't file a claim for a probationary period...you may be able to re-insure in the voluntary market at a much higher rate. It is a business and they are fully aware...but, they are in business to make money.