geisha779

Ham, Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it doesn't get too much better.....unless you like endless hours, research, work, and no real credit? Don't forget to thank whoever for the privilege! They love that. Smile when you do.... :) Oh, I forgot....get to know the department secretary....they usually know where all the bodies are buried.

He ABSOLUTELY lacked the qualifications of a Pastor, Elder or being The Teacher, according to the very book he claimed to know so much about and was trying to teach. Great recommend. He must have just skimmed the parts about being drunk, or lustful, adultery, arrogance, unsound and divergent teaching about Jesus Christ, arguing endlessly over words, sensuality, heresy, greed, causing division, murmuring, denying Jesus Christ, being argumentative, teaching things he himself did not understand. He may have had an education, but he was not definitely not qualified for what he tried to do.

Johniam, Faith needs an object. The Centurion was placing his faith in someone. . . . . Jesus and in His words, not something intangible. Which is why Jesus praised him. He wasn't placing his faith in healing, or what was available...but in the authority Jesus had which came from God. How do you think he knew about Jesus to go to Him? You are missing the point, but I suspect, listening to VP and dragging out that inaccurate 5 types of faith teaching, you have been missing it for quite awhile. What is it going to hurt you to branch out and listen to some other bible teachers(non TWI related) on the subject of faith? Not a thing. You may learn something of value....like what object or person we actually put our faith in. The Centurion had faith in Jesus...just like you are supposed to have. You should be able to recognize this. It is not about what's available and how to receive it, it is about faith in a person who claims to be someone. Either He is...or He isn't...if He is....then He is all sufficient. When our faith is truly in Him, we know what we have in Him....we don't need to seek it out and find out if it is available to get something from God. We have Him!! He has given us everything in Christ. It is about Him and being in relationship to Him. I don't really know how many more ways to say it. It is like there is a disconnect somewhere and you travel this strange circuitous route to actually avoid Jesus and somehow think you are going to come to God.

Maybe that is how they stayed propped up? Our identities were pretty wrapped up in that world...who knows what kind of identity crisis some might have without being God's super elite, or maybe they just truly believe it. I don't know why after all this time they still believe he taught them a correct understanding of scripture and a right belief about a holy God but, obviously some still do.... maybe some people are lost without that to identify themselves with. At this point, with all that is known...I don't understand how...but, that is me.They can keep it.

In Ezekiel it is speaking about a breach in a wall and someone standing there, so that the enemy can't gain entrance. It exposes false prophets because when there is real trouble they are not to be found....but, it is difficult to define something referring to Jesus or Moses without using the bible. These are the things that were pointing to the Christ. Sorry, biblical reference, biblical terms.

Ezekiel 22:30 It was about Moses who was a foreshadow of Christ in that instance. . . . Moses was the mediator between God and Israel...for a Christian who knows Christ stands in the gap...and is all sufficient...... it not a cute little phrase to toss around. When it was used in TWI VP....it was blasphemous.

How is bitter being defined? Who is defining it? Is bitterness being defined by someone still in denial? No, being bitter doesn't mean ones conclusions are wrong or their logic is flawed. Of course not, it usually means someone is processing an injustice, working it out, dealing with their emotions, and BEING HUMAN!! People who were at one time conditioned to deaden and deny their emotions...may need to be vocal and learn to process. What better way than with those who have experienced the same thing under the same bizarre set of restrictions and legalism? It may even be healthy and truly helpful! But, of course, if one is still entrenched in that same emotionally stifling world view and mind set....then they are probably not really qualified to even define an emotion. I remember what I thought passed as bitterness, or love, mercy, sympathy, empathy, kindness, care, concern, hope, joy, and the rest in TWI. It was fairly warped and the TWI mindset was not a good way to get in touch or deal with genuine emotion.

If you think about it...VP was a tiny guppy in a big pond, known to very few...and most of those who knew him or of him were on to him....with the exception of we few (leaves), and most of us have caught on by now. VP had to isolate himself too....that is the only way he got away with all he said and did. It is only a very few who may never get past him and who still allow him to define their lives... whether it be idol worship of the man himself or some adherence to "the word according to Garp VP" or a twisted combination of both. It is kind of pity evoking. No? There are those who were in TWI who now think any kind of faith is pity evoking. Isn't that a great legacy for The Doctor, A.K.A. Our Father in the Word, The Man of God for our day and time, the Prophet, the Apostle, the Evangelist, the Pastor. the teacher.....the one who stood in the gap...the man whom God chose to know the word unlike it has been known since the 1st century....the man who received countless revelations....who had the present truth and whatever else he crowned himself.

Jesus is Lord period. That is the gospel message. We don't make Him Lord by consent...we recognize Him by grace and Roman's 10: 9 & 10 is only a potion of the gospel, it is not a magic formula.

He was recognizing God....that is the whole point. The centurion said, I too am one under authority....do you think the centurion was recognizing Jesus having authority from one other than God? That is what the Pharisees said....they eventually said that Jesus power came from Satan. The centurion didn't have faith in his own believing...he verbally expressed his faith in Jesus...whose authority comes from God! As we know, Jesus was known to have claimed this a few times. You have yet again, missed the ENTIRE point of what is written.

The irony.... Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace...is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him. Dietrich Bonhoeffer in The Cost of Discipleship

He was a genius!

The Christian faith isn't about us, our prayers answered, or our best life now. . . trading in one lifestyle for another doesn't make something a genuine Christian experience. We all did that in one way or another. Abrupt personality change? For each of us the time is surely coming when we shall have nothing but God. Health and wealth and friends and hiding places will all be swept away, and we shall have only God. To the man of pseudo faith that is a terrifying thought, but to real faith it is one of the most comforting thoughts the heart can entertain. A.W.Tozer

All of thee above, and more. I was mean-spirited, petty, and I thought I was God's gift to Himself. The good news is....I have lost some of the fruit of the "spirit" cultivated during my tenure in TWI ....at least a little bit. :) End of the world? Naaah that is next year...2012

I didn't fake it. :) I did SIT. I even SIT before the class while reading RTHST. I simply don't believe that SIT is evidence of the new birth. As Waysider and others have pointed out, pagan cultures have SIT for years. I don't even need to know that, scripture points out that in the Corinthian church they had a counterfeit. That is the point Paul was making when he said we can receive another spirit. Seriously, I believe we were actually rejecting the Holy Spirit in TWI not receiving it. But, the people in TWI are not the enemy. Satan is. The sad joke is...VP was not even a good false teacher. Yet, many good Christians were caught up in TWI, especially early on.....VP co-opted people from the Jesus movement, but chances are good if one was not a Christian going into TWI, one did not become one as a result of being there. I agree, I find that hard to believe too. I was not a Christian going in. johniam, you really should pray to find a nice little bible based church and let a real Pastor help you, I don't think there is or will be much laughter in heaven about TWI.

Bill is dead. . . . Barb is nutty, Nicky is almost nice, and Margene is a relief worker. Frank killed Lois, Ben married Heather and apparently black is the color to wear to a Mormon blessing. What a strange ending. I loved it. Seriously though...that series was way too close to home for comfort. Roman was VP, the compound HQ, Albie was LCM, and the Hendricksons were Corps who formed an offshoot and tried to live the same "word" without the resulting immorality....which didn't work because it was the same "word". I am going to start in season 1 and watch it again! :)

Actually, I knew very little about Jesus from reading about Him johniam...for me, it took hearing about Him from someone not in a cult to begin to know Him. It was a true Christian without a malevolent and aberrant understanding who had to confront me and help me. It took the Lord Himself calling me, the Holy Spirit showing me, and the will of God to reach me. It took undoing years of looking at the scriptures with a peculiar focus and odd understanding to begin to know Him. I was blinded to Him in scripture because of VP's teachings and where he lead me to focus. You are not going to like this, but, it took me suffering by being broken....for the Lord to rescue me from TWI. James and Jude knew Jesus personally. . . they were His brothers. They grew up with Him....they went to temple with Him.....they had the same mother. They knew who He was, in an intimate and personal way. They saw the miracles He did with their own eyes. James was very devout and he knew the scriptures. However, he didn't know the Lord. It took them both seeing Jesus resurrected before they believed who He was. James was so humbled that he referred to himself as a slave of Jesus Christ. I was in TWI for too long a time, and I know what they taught.....which is why I mentioned it to you. It wasn't a game of retemory gotcha they were playing in Matt 4 & Luke 4. I remember how VP got us to focus on those kinds of things. Do you think Satan doesn't know or understand what the scriptures say? Satan has a more orthodox understanding of the scriptures than you do, and he wasn't purposely misquoting it here....nor was the focus "It is written" . The relevance is that the scripture said God would protect Jesus if He jumped...the devil was tempting Him to specifically jump. The devil told Him what the scripture said in relation to the temptation. Satan was correct. Satan was trying to get Jesus to tempt God and to avoid suffering. Jesus could have jumped and God would have protected Him. Satan was absolutely right in what he said, but the result of jumping would have been to have cast doubt on and challenge God's faithfulness. Satan was going after God and relationship...not...it is written. If you look at the temptations, putting aside the way VP got us to focus on ..."It is written" for just a minute...you will find...that technically Satan was right in his quotations. Jesus could have done all of these things according to scripture. He had the power and Satan was trying to get Him to use it. Jesus did use it a few chapters later when He multiplied loaves and fishes. Angels did come minister to Jesus when the temptations were over. There is so much more depth to it, but I can't even begin to share it with you, I know you would not hear me. Maybe the next time you read this passage you can consider it in light of Satan trying to get Jesus to avoid suffering and the Cross. I would really love to be able to genuinely discuss scripture with you, but sadly, we really do not share a common faith. That breaks my heart. False teachers don't quote from the Koran. They use the bible and they quote it and tell you exactly what it says. You can look at what they are saying and think.."Yeah, it does say that". Technically they can be right. However, they are also very wrong at the same time. False teachers give us another understanding of right scripture. It is very subtle and difficult to see if we are isolated from Christians and indoctrinated in focus. They give us another gospel, even if they preach the same words, use the same version, and have the same cadence in their voice! They give us another Jesus...even though they use the same scriptures to define Him.....and we can receive another spirit because of this. Paul said false Apostles were like their father the devil....and he compares them to the serpent. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. If I were you, which I am not :) ......I would be less concerned in looking for Satan in a therapists office and more concerned by finding him to be the one who has preached the gospel to you.

Not really, we had to have all our i's dotted and t's crossed didn't we? We had to know what was available....how to receive it......what to do with it....we had to picture it...declare it...act like we had it....seems like an awful lot to go through if one has confidence in God. I think it was more about having confidence in ourselves....after all, with GOD all things are possible. With us, it was pretty much dependent on our believing. . . . . . . and when it failed to "manifest" itself it was we who were never good enough... That isn't faith or confidence in God. -------------------------------------------- Edit.... OH...just saw BA said that...sorry.

Isn't THAT the truth! Really though, that is such a good point. I can relate to that.

OMG I just reread this thread and I have SUCH a big mouth. LOL :) but, it was fun to discuss this..... for me, it was a real faith builder. I will truly miss this site. Thanks for the topic Waysider.

This one has me a bit stumped. Did you mean to say Jesus Christ is the written absolute truth? Or, am I reading this incorrectly? What are you talking about? I don't want to assume...but, I am unsure of what you mean by that statement. When Jesus was tempted....Satan spoke the truth. He didn't misquote the OT. When Jesus answered him....Jesus spoke the truth. Both were speaking the truth...Both were handling the truth but, what was the difference? Was one handling it deceitfully? Was one trying to use the truth for his own gain? Jesus is the word in the flesh. There are many ways to handle and understand the written word... One can manipulate the written word, but the person of Jesus Christ is unchanging. We can't manipulate Him, change Him, or redefine Him, ....it doesn't work like that. That leads no where but to an empty faith and a different "truth". Johniam, Jesus will define Himself and truth for us when we humble ourselves before Him, and we submit to Him. It doesn't work the other way around. We are in relationship to Jesus, not the bible. The bible, we can define any way we wish.....when Jesus is our Lord....He defines truth for us. Does that make sense to you? We had it backward in TWI. We were telling God what truth was instead of letting Him tell us. It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth, not we operating the Holy Spirit. Backwards...we had it wrong.

Well, you can find people in the church, who do believe the gospel is true, but who do not have faith. One can believe something is true, make a mental assent, agree with all the facts, and yet not have faith. Not be saved. Remember Jesus' warning in Matthew 7:22? It is possible to believe and to even do things in the name of the Lord, miracles even...and still not be known by Him. That is a very sobering passage of scripture. I understand that what I am saying may seem confusing, especially given our foundational understanding of believing vs faith, however, it is all tied into who we place our faith in. Simon did not die shortly after his encounter with Peter. Simon went on to other things. He started his own group and took many people from the church with him. Even separating myth from history, we do know a bit about Simon Magus. The father of gnosticism? We can actually piece together some of his doctrine. His following was huge. Looking at his doctrine, at what Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and others wrote about him....we can at the least begin to understand he was not a church member in good standing. Simon and his followers were a very strong presence and they were despised. It is actually an interesting thing to look at the heresies of the early church and compare them to what we were taught in PFAL. It causes one to evaluate what team we were batting for. Those heresies have not disappeared...they just get repackaged. Simon was not saved, but we can ALWAYS repent Johniam. God is merciful and gracious. Of course what Peter said unnerved Simon. It was harsh, but it was also merciful. I would be asking for an Apostle who said that directly to me to pray for me. Yikes!

I read it somewhere? He did not like him. It would not be too difficult to look it up and the writings are online if you are interested in them. Irenaeus had plenty to say about these guys...and none of it was forgiving, kind, charitable, or subtle. The same group of churches Simon started were still around when Iranaeus was around. Simon had students and followers. It was huge. Iranaeus was a student of Polycarp....Polycarp was with the Apostle John, so we are not talking about a long time here. It would be like your father passing on something your grandfather told you. Then again, I could have it mixed up. :) John Piper does a really nice job refuting the prosperity gospel...some here may disagree with him, but I think there are some good points in here. He makes a few leaps, but I identify with what he says. <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jLRue4nwJaA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This made me smile. How wonderfully stated....

:) Nice