geisha779

Hubby was in the Corps and I like to think I was the reason for him regretting his decision! He left fairly early on...to marry me, but he also said...he had watched sweet people changing into hard and cold people....that was what really shook him. That was what started his exit from TWI...even though it was a few years in coming.... . and as indoctrinated as we were....we started to realize a "Christian" training program should not strip people of their basic humanity. Not all people...but there were plenty of people who went into the corps with fairly tender hearts...and came out arrogant and just downright mean.

I don't really believe Penworks post was a challenge to debate, but, rather to discuss, and this is after all, a discussion forum. I understand this is your personal thread, but it really does read like her questions and perspective are genuine. I believe that they are..... and she brought up a discussion topic.... so, what is wrong with addressing with some depth, the points raised? She brought them up in your thread....and I thought I read somewhere, you are in the "Ministry of reconciliation" business. No, that God has entrusted this to you..is that correct? Wouldn't that make it your responsibility to address her sincere questions about the bible? Isn't this supposed to be your area of expertise given you have taken the world's greatest bible class series....PFAL...where you were lead into understanding scripture as it has not been known since the 1st Century? I don't think anyone is questioning your right to believe what you do...just the why of what you believe. However, answering her with scripture seems rather ironic given the points raised. How much authority do you think that is going to have if she has questions about the cannon and inerrancy itself? Language is not perfect, yet if scripture is inspired, then it appears God chose one imperfect way to make His perfect will known....doesn't it? What's up with that? What exactly does inspired mean in reference to the scriptures? What about the cannon we have today? Is that perfect, or inspired? You know who chose the books we rely on today don't you? What was their theology? If they were idolaters, then how much faith should we put in God's willingness to work in them at all? Was there no one around at the times the different cannons were being discussed who believed correctly? Was there anyone who knew the "truth" ? And come to think of it...if there was...why did God let them be silenced? Why did God hide His word for 2,000 years and then wait until a drunk abuser came along to reveal it in PFAL? Why did God allow plagiarized work to be cobbled together to reveal His truth after 2,000 years? Plagiarism is theft. Hardly seems like a just God to me. I thought He didn't go against His own will...I thought He was perfect? Are you familiar with any of the authors Penworks has quoted, or are you familiar with an ongoing discussion in Christians circles, which deals honestly with these points? Aware of those who refute these arguments, and with some really sound points of their own? Remember those no good seminary students and their professors? You would have to branch out a bit...extend yourself to understand the discussion which goes well beyond this forum.....but, it seems to me, if you have the burden of reconciliation......it is your responsibility to know what people are questioning...where the ideas come from...who is addressing them...and then process the information yourself. This would be so that you are comfortable in such a discussion. I have had this discussion with her before.....I learned a great deal and it was a faith building exercise for me, but not without some serious consideration and educating myself...which has actually extended itself way beyond the discussion forum. It is an interesting topic. Thanks Penworks...you made me examine and you made me really consider what I believe and the discussion prodded me to think. . . . . I am sincere, thank-you. The result was being more comfortable with my faith...but, it took some serious critical thinking and genuine thought. John, if someone asks you questions like the ones Penworks put forth...you should at least be willing to engage them...if, as you say....reconciliation is your responsibility.

Reading that put a smile on my face...I am so glad you both enjoy each other and your wonderful children. :) Every once in awhile I read something on here that perfectly exposes TWI for what it was....evil. That quote of LCM's .... that simple statement.....says all anyone really needs to know about The Way. You know, if it was the Aryan Brotherhood....or maybe something from one of Hitler's speeches...it would still be despicable, but the source would be obvious. Consider, this hate speech was from someone who claimed to be a Christian. He really did learn from VP. Is there any question anymore about what kind of bible they teach? I don't want to drag this thread off topic too much, but I have to say this...all I can think of after reading this and Twinky's post is about many wonderful gay couples who adopt unwanted children....kids with challenges...and these couples provide them with amazing love, support, security, care, and they know to teach them tolerance of others. TWI is just absurd.

What? He said this? He actually said this aloud? What an absolutely Godless, bloodless, heartless, and cruel thing to think, believe or to say. What kind of immoral and heartless God did they think they were glorifying with speech like this?

I agree with you I really, really do..... but, as bad as it is now....remember that we were so polarized at one time...we fought a civil war. We are not there yet. Maybe take another gander with a broader perspective...it may give you some comfort. Possibly. :) You know....maybe you are a bit of an idealist( that is a compliment)....please hang on to that idealism. We really need voices like that. They seem so silent lately. Not only that, we need people who can cut through the bull.....spot it a mile away and call it out. See, TWI did us a few favors... if only to be able to cry foul at foul! Speak on brother! Just don't forget to look at some of the good too.

False teaching is not a sin of the flesh...it issues from the heart. "...Ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ" That means that they twist the meaning of grace into a pretext for sin. Wow, does that sound like a familiar theme that runs through the stories of sexual abuse given by VP's victims. Imparting "healing wholeness"...that was when he sinned in the flesh...his rationalization and justification using God and scripture as a pretext.....that was something else. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Pharisees saw the work of The Holy Spirit in Jesus when He did miracles.....and they attributed it to Satan. Saying Jesus of the church (paraphrased) is a devil spirit....is just another way to basically say the same thing.

That the points and issue which you have raised are going to be addressed by johniam in a fashion worthy of the subject! That may sound harsh...but I have yet to have any question or point addressed in any genuine or conversational(is that a word?) fashion. I have been called names though! :) insulted, and had my credibility challenged. Points addressed...not so much.

Now, this is a conversation I would really enjoy watching unfold......but, I don't hold out a great deal of hope.

Corps training was indoctrination, but so was the PFAL series, it wasn't just some nice little bible class. There were red flags everywhere. In fact, I was thinking recently, about my second encounter with a Wayfer, and how I should have seen those red flags even then. I was trying to figure out what it was that got me to ignore my own moral compass....which I can remember doing....and instead listen to this woman correct me on the difference between right and wrong. I know what it was. It was the authority with which she spoke about the bible. The bible, in my mind seemed to maybe have some kind of authority, but to me was a mystery. I wanted to know how to understand it....but did not have clue one. The issue of abortion came up in our discussion, and I said I thought it was wrong. Speaking to "bible" people, I figured this was a no brainer. She arrogantly and firmly corrected me with a verse of scripture and some convoluted explanation about breath-life. I can remember being taken aback...but, I also remember I had no authority other than my own sense of right and wrong....and she had the authority of scripture/God. Or so I believed. I was 19 years old and she was in her late 20's. I was unsure of myself.....she seemed SO sure of herself....and I let my own conscience be over-ridden. After all, we met up to discuss a bible class because I was seeking some answers. She had them. If it was now, I would not be so easily manipulated. I would say, I will have to get back to you on that. But, TWI knew who to target. I was prime picking. Hungry, yet ignorant, and easily intimidated by authority. I was barely an adult myself. Their manipulation was insidious, as it preyed on vulnerable people with real questions and seeking hearts. It was a facade, but it masqueraded as something that can be genuine. For me, there never was a time that it was a genuine Christian experience. I know that in hindsight, because, I have had that real fellowship with people. It was at first confusing to me, because it wasn't an in your face, life consuming experience. It was God centered, not people or word centered. I was actually put off because I missed the intensity between the people! Now that is a bit crazy. I agree 200% with you about TWI. I just don't see it as translating into all areas of life. But, you clarified that you don't either....so we get each other. Some areas...YES! Not to be too long winded...too late :) . Even when we do see manipulative behavior in people, We don't always have to confront it head on...and we don't have to run the other way. I am not speaking of cults...or groups that demand lock step loyalty....by all means run!! But, with everyday relationships....we can just answer them in a way that leaves them no where else to go...pretty soon they figure out it doesn't work on you...and it makes for a better relationship. At least that is my take on it.

That says in one sentence what it takes me paragraphs to write out. That is perfect.

BA To me....this sounds like a bit of an extreme perspective, but then again, I am blond and seriously may be missing something I could very well agree with. You sound a bit like my hubby, so maybe there is something to this Pollyanna/Cynic match. It is a good thing that there is something which keeps some people in check or is there no such thing? I will tell you a secret BA...I know when certain people are using me and sometimes, I just look past that and let them. If I can offer some kind of help and support...I don't look for the evil motive....I often just do it. It happened to me today. Sometimes people just don't know how to ask for help, but that doesn't make them abusive. Sometimes people are struggling with issues and can't reach out. I also know that people can have expectations of me, without me looking at it as abusive. I would hope that there are expectations of me. People are people, but that is everyone... including you and me. Do you really believe you are abusive or can become abusive by your definition? If you are aware of it....why can't you check it? Is it worth it to use someone? No, of course not. Remember, some people give their lives for others...complete strangers donate marrow and blood....give their organs in death to give others life. We are made in God's image....and God can be pretty good. I get what Skyrider is saying about corruption and critical thinking but, it seems like what you are looking for is perfection, and you are never going to find. Not being perfect is not the same thing as being abusive. Being human doesn't naturally translate into being abusive....at least I don't see it. But, then again, I have been around some pretty amazing and selfless people who make me want to be better, so I may need to just get out more!!! :)

Well, I get that. But, see....something good came out of TWI...we are more aware. :) Yes, there is corruption everywhere...I agree...even in churches, but there is also good. People helping people with no agenda other than that. It is out there. I promise you. You and I can still make a difference with our lives, even if it is knowing the difference between right and wrong and speaking to it. Not such a bad a way to be. We still have something to offer! Our shared experience makes us somewhat unique...and God can turn it to good!

So is God dead then? He must be if He has not raised up any good and honest people to work through. No one is committed to Him? True faith is dead? Maybe I don't understand the point. It could be, because it is hard to fathom such a drastic conclusion based on a few experiences. People are people. Maybe I am a Pollyanna, but, it has not been my experience since leaving TWI that people are inherently evil and abusive. Why the heck, would people bother to commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others, just to become abusive to those helping them with their vision? You are saying this is inevitable? It all seems so cynical . . . . I think I must be missing the point. Seriously. I am not kidding...I don't get it. I don't think my mind works this way. I see so much good in people working together. I am dealing with Hospice right now...and it is an amazing experience. I am so thankful for them!

Well, I DID blame God for awhile, I felt He betrayed me. . . . there were times I didn't believe in Him at all....and I didn't just ride into a church and connect. It didn't happen that way at all. It has been a tough road. I identify with Socrates.....I understand his response and in no way is it self-pitying....it is a natural response when one comes to certain realities. I have read his posts. What I read is frustration with the God portrayed in TWI, the belief system of TWI, and those who hold up this God as truth...who can blame him? My frustration is the same.

That is so true. One of the most insidious things about the Way was that PFAL series, which just stopped the whole learning process. It gave us all the answers. They were the wrong answers, but we were given what were supposed to be THE answers to life's most existential questions. We were also given a permanent set of keys that were supposed to open any door and allow us to walk right through and live correctly. So, "If you want to have a powerful life, that is more than abundant too, then PFAL is the class for you" Sing it with me! Correct living as defined by a man who lived like hell. The programs set up to learn through experience, such as WOW or the Way Corps, were designed so that we would experience life through that same lens given to us in PFAL. Hence the control. Any real true learning through life experience was stopped....because how we dealt with life's challenges was already defined. We had the answers before the questions were even posed. It really was a system designed to retard any kind of true growth or maturity. It is no wonder, when people leave, they often return to the last place they were before becoming immersed in that way of understanding life. It can be like a whole chunk of one's life is missing. I would say anger is a healthy and appropriate initial response to the realization we were duped, and actually reveals some kind of healing. Proper corresponding emotion to the reality of a situation...who would have thunk it! If someone tells you this is wrong, and you need to change or renew your mind back to that particular set of answers....run! Life is how we learn....they even give college credit for life experience. :)

It is just another perspective. . . . thought I would offer it up for consideration. I guess whoever wrote the article said that.....hope you got to read the whole thing if you were interested.

Okay, maybe I was confused. I read agenda and religion and probably misunderstood, but didn't TWI ask for money to move the word? Wasn't that their supposed agenda or mission? Didn't they claim to need money to carry on their business? They sure did. Isn't that what we at one time thought we were supporting? I thought what you said about healthy boundaries was spot on...not missing out on being a part of something because of TWI. What you said about healthy relating was also really good. What Skyrider said about relating as revealed in scripture really spoke to me as well, but two things can relate or coalesce, and be good. My point is....that there are righteous agendas which we can support without giving up our individuality....without crossing personal boundaries....without selling our souls. Just because they are designed and implemented by people with an agenda does not make them bad. The motives and heart behind the agenda can make them good or bad.....but, bad is not a given. The people who run or are often involved in these causes are immersed in them, committed to them, sold out to them and identify with them as their work. The difference between them and TWI is the heart and faith behind them. We are still free to embrace a group but also free to distinguish between motivations. Not to mention we also reap the benefits of many individual or group agendas...Clara Barton had a vision and if you ever have a loved one in need of blood...her agenda may just be what saves them. Labor laws, child labor laws, safety regulations are born from an agenda....prison reform, or most any reform.....comes from a group with an agenda. That is just the way humans relate and work together. Common vision, common causes, change and effect on others. That is all I was trying to point out. :) Hope that makes sense.

I probably look at it a bit differently, I guess it just depends on who you are around and what the agenda is....for me, there are many great man made ministries born from a religious outlook, those that focus on issues which really adversely effect peoples lives. To Write Love on Her Arms....deals with teenage girls who are cutters. The guy who runs it is about the nicest guy around, he has genuine motives, the people involved make a difference, they recognize the problem...and raise awareness. World Vision has had an impact, Living Water digs wells....on it goes. VOM not only deals with the persecuted church, but they also give to other people....specifically giving to Muslims in need as well as Christians. Most churches support missions of some kind, with prayer, people, and money. I don't know Skyrider, but, I think there are many good man made things. Oxfam, is a great relief organization and is partnered with the British Government... When there is a crisis, they are among the first there...along with the Red Cross. People have agendas, maybe are called to certain things...to get things done. It takes money. It takes commitment, and it takes a vision. Doesn't it really depend on the agenda and heart behind it? I know since leaving TWI I have been involved in a few different things, but each one spoke to me and moved me. Organizing and moving ahead isn't a bad thing....but peoples motives can be. It is nice that we can choose what and who we support. . . . IMO supporting people and groups is not the issue...being a part of something is not the issue....following your own conscience with healthy boundaries is.....and yes, we were in a nasty cult, but not all groups operate like TWI. Some are worthy of support and money to implement their agenda....some agendas are good. I guess I look at the scriptures a bit differently too. I see God as sovereign...in control...and everything belonging to Him...and I see a world where we have freewill to choose what we serve.

Here is an article with a different perspective on the subject....from CRI Christian Research Institute ..... kind of make one go or not. :) http://www.equip.org...hristian-zodiac If the gospel in the stars message was given to Adam and Eve before the Fall, it makes God's original command meaningless to them because their sin was inevitable. Why even bother to command it? Why even bother to try to obey it? The history is already set out, and they never had a chance. This would have been a terrible blow to their morale. It would have seemed like bad news to them, not good news. Bullinger may have seen the problem of such deterministic fatalism. Although his GIS theory does not avoid getting caught by its consequences, he does state, "These pictures were designed to preserve, expound, and perpetuate the one first great promise and prophecy of Gen. iii. 15 [after the Fall], that all hope for Man, all hope for Creation, was bound up in a coming Redeemer...."24 "Adam, who first heard that wondrous promise, repeated it, and gave it to his posterity as a most precious heritage."25 Bullinger knew Seiss's work, but it is not clear if by such statements Bullinger meant to refute Seiss's belief that Adam had the gospel in the stars before the Fall, or if Bullinger was merely anchoring what he believed Adam had been told by God before the Fall to a biblical text given after the Fall. Another basic flaw in GIS theory is its confusion of the theological categories of special revelation and general revelation, resulting in an inappropriate attribution of moral authority to nature. This confusion is evident through the language that GIS advocates use, such as when Bullinger states that the heavens "prophesy" God's purposes and counsels,26 or when Seiss writes that the Magi "never could have understood as they did" how to find Jesus, "if there had not been associated with the stars some definite evangelic prophecies and promises which they could read, and believed to be from God."27 This confusion is also exemplified when Fleming speaks of the "prophetic outline" of the 12 signs,28 and when Hickey states, "The reason God placed stars and planets in the heavens was to reveal knowledge about His Son, Jesus Christ."29 GIS teachers, here, are making general revelation (nature) function as special revelation (God's redemptive interventions through word and deed in history, especially in Christ and the Bible ). While general revelation does impart some knowledge of the existence, attributes, and law of God and therefore does have moral authority (Rom. 1:19–21; 2:14–15), it does not reveal anything about the Incarnation or salvation. The Bible is the source of authority for that. As has often been said, nature reveals enough to condemn you but not enough to save you.

Yeah, that must be it. There are posters who have been here since it opened, they have literally thousands of posts....but it is MY voice which has run its course. I am actually flattered, as it must be my voice which really irritates you. That would not be because you can't actually answer me in any intelligent fashion would it? Believing the basic tenants of the Christian faith does not make one an extreme fundamentalist. Unless you want to deny them or redefine them and then replace them with extreme polar opposites that some old lecherous drunk conditioned you to believe. Unless you embrace some molester, abuser, adulterer, and pervert who gave you his extreme fundamentalist views and you accepted them as the "truth" as it has not been known since the first century. You haven't done that have you? You don't embrace a bunch of things you learned in a Christ denying cult and then call yourself a Christian do you? You don't actually look down on Christians do you? Keep yourself separate from them? Call them idolatrous ... among other things....have opposite beliefs and then try to number yourself among them do you? That would be just plain strange. We have a book written by a woman with first hand experience with VP....who tells what he was like.....we have a poster here who was drugged and taken against her will by the man...she has bravely given first hand information.....We have first hand testimony from several others that you can read on J Juedes site. We have people with very personal knowledge telling of PL who acted as pimp for the man.....and much more to hear. Yet, somehow, you still embrace what he told you about GOD. That tells me a few things about TWI and you.....but, as long as you can personally insult and throw out terms you don't understand...maybe the light will shift elsewhere and people won't notice. Good luck with that...most people here have grown a conscience and are conscious. You didn't go back and read other posts? Yeah...right.... and I still believe VP was a Christian teacher too.

Now, this is something I can really understand and it is a great testimony. Thank you for sharing this. I too, had to go like a baby, on my knees in repentance. I can remember things just washing over me, all the times I had denied Him, or the things I had done that I thought were okay with Him. It all came out and I laid it at the foot of the cross. It was then I became a Christian. I knew I was forgiven and accepted. I paid a heavy price for my time in the Way. Things I would never share here. Things lost that I cannot regain.....I still have some sorrow, but I know that I am forgiven. It didn't take away the consequences of my sins. I didn't get a do over of my youth and folly, but, I have faith in Him and some peace about my past. Usually, I am just awestruck He rescued me...His mercy is unfathomable. I know He will deliver anyone who throws up their hands and just humbly asks Him. Here am I, and the children God has given me. God is good. :)

Please, if you think of it. The Gaither's are such kind people. . . . it just surprises me so much! My kid knows Ernie Haase and Doug Anderson, they were so so good to my son! Unless you were not talking to me. :)

Bill Gaither threatened to sue TWI? I don't know why that surprises me..but, it really does. I wonder how Gaither even knew? It is not like he went to fellowship or anything. Can I ask where you heard this Thomas?

I am sorry, but I am laughing....you are a TA right? It isn't about what you are interested in...... They didn't tell you that yet? If you do uncover something spectacular....they own it. I admire you for what you are doing...it is a slog.