geisha779

Maybe many people never really knew God or were Christian in TWI, but rather worshiped a book and a wrong idea about God. Maybe they are not tripped out on God, but instead on an ugly theology they learned in a cult. Either way...God is able....and He promises He will call those who belong to Him back to the fold. It is not really out of His jurisdiction or area of interest. So, if, as you say... God is still God....have a little faith. :)

I think that term codependent is so over used and misused...if we are in a relationship...we are probably somewhat codependent. Big deal. Hey, I am comfortable and happy in my codependency.

I too went without in TWI and actually went hungry a few times. I hear you. I don't really remember the details of the testimony or I could comment more...but, I don't think it was an abundance of great healthy food and he did have to go and find it. I think the point was...he ate every day. :) Not really abundant living by TWI standards. It is pretty tough living in a refugee camp, but, it can be tough to have faith when we have everything so easily available to us. That was the point I think. If that makes sense? Depends on what we consider enough I guess. Food doesn't seem like such a big thing to ask! Just to add: I think sometimes in TWI, according to what we were led to believe, paying off God meant we had protection...He owed us. We ABS...so where was our stuff...God won't spit in our direction...remember? Well, maybe that differs from faith in a loving God who does provide our basic needs. The bottom line is that you and I did survive and live to eat another day...I don't really think God failed us.

Me too, I can't even find the keys to our doors! We locked them the other day by mistake, and had to crawl in a window. No one locks their doors around here. Probably we should, but, if someone wants in...it is just a broken window away. Reading this thread I realized that I probably have a month's worth of food in my cabinets anyway. I still shop for a large crowd and there are only the two of us now. My kids treat our house like a super market so it usually goes. Americans shop differently than many other people. We have larger refrigerators...bigger kitchens...eat more!! My brother-in-law was just here, he and his family travel the globe so much they need inserts for their passports. He goes to some pretty rough places, like the Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Haiti. He spends time in refugee camps...and when asked what it is like, he always says that people every where he goes are basically good. I remember reading a testimony from a man who came here from the Sudan. He said in many ways it was more difficult here to trust God for what he needed. Relationship with God was different. Everything is at our finger tips. He said each day in the camp he would have to trust God for his families food. They never went hungry. Storing food seems a bit alarmist to me...but, I usually have so much in the house....it is enough to last. Water is another issue though...we have a well and when the power goes out...we got zip. That I store...to flush the toilet!

Grease Spot is a reunion of sorts...people trying to make sense of it all...and the opinions here run the gamut. This caught my eye too...a bit eerie. Before its final demise in 1988, it directly touched the lives of thousands of people, for better or worse. For some commune members, their time there was the highlight of their lives. For others, it was a nightmare. Many stayed a decade or more, committing their youth, sweat, and worldly possessions to creating an example of brotherhood and harmony, that, they felt, would serve as a model for the rest of the world. Unfortunately, as it grew, the commune became a microcosm of the world at large, with most of the same problems, structures, and limitations of both American society and Soviet socialism. A bit like "moving the word"..."walking the talk"....and all those catch phrases we really believed meant something. It doesn't make any of us bad people for trusting in a vision. But, the vision was an illusion IMO. Not because Christ is an illusion or that Christianity is the wrong path....but, because we followed a man who rewrote Jesus' vision, and not in a good or right way. His motives are what are in question...not those who really wanted to live a life that promoted change...or believed in making a difference. Although, examining why we bought into can be a good, healthy, yet to many, a painful endeavor. It is a bit of a wake-up to realize we were not all that unique and somewhat a product of the times. Our little utopia was the vision of a man who knew how to manipulate people and take advantage of those times.

Did the drug save the wife? Just still worried about her. :)

Socks, Your post made me think of that movie Footloose. . . . ever see it? :) Kevin Bacon moves to a small farm community and is disliked by the locals? What you are relating is one side of the story...if you spoke to those locals and their families it might sound a bit different. I can imagine it was disconcerting for them to have a bunch of kids(What did you all look like?) descending on a farm in their community. When were the Manson murders? What were the times like? Unfair of the locals maybe....but, in hindsight and as an adult you may be able to look at least a little bit .....from their perspective. I am sure they were not enamored of VP or what he was turning the family farm into. The same thing happened here with Brotherhood of the Spirit....a similar group to the early days of TWI and MANY others from the late 1960's early 70's. They were written up in Look, not Life magazine. Amazing parallels. I remember the reactions to them. They were not welcome with open arms...but, I do understand the reaction. There were some bad things that happened to those sweet kids seeking to make a difference. Why did it visit our little town? Local kids did get sucked in and a few died. I know many of the remnant now as an adult....their responses to the doctrine and vision of their leader and the group are varied, but they are, for the most part, great people. They went through a great deal of hardship though...being involved in a cult. Some of them will never wake up and I know of a few horrible things which have happened as a result. Really sad things. I know a father, who never really grieved for his young daughter who was killed in a riding accident. He almost took pleasure in her untimely death. As is evidenced by the celebration that followed. Some of the changes wrought by movements during the 1960's and 1970's were good. People with vision standing for change. Power to the people brother, I am with you...even though I missed all the fun by a few years. Yet, just because something was our own little vision, and our motives were pure....it doesn't make what and who we stood with good by osmosis.....but, it was our youth and who we were and what we believed...so how we view it is always going to be from a personal and difficult perspective. I guess?

I remember hearing things like that for years ....with VP, the one that stuck with me for some reason, even after I left TWI....was that all VP's contemporaries, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, and whoever else, knew that he was right. It was something about how VP had personally spoken with them and they admitted privately to him that they knew he was teaching the right word. The emphasis was on JCNG, and that they couldn't or wouldn't speak up because of money. It would upset the applecart too much. That was why they shunned him, and VP's integrity was why he had to speak out, and why he would not bend to them. Was that in a class maybe? LCM, by most accounts, was a brute and a bully. I wasn't around him too much, but when I was...he really creeped me out. Instead of listening to myself and paying attention to my thoughts about him being incredibly arrogant and vulgar...I turned on myself and thought I was possessed. How sick is that? I thought I must be possessed and the "devil spirits" bothering me were reacting to the "light" that emanated from the MOG. Okay, writing that out just makes it sound even more insane. Not something to share in mixed company. VP & LCM, were isolated and insulated. They never put themselves in a position where someone who wasn't a sycophant could really confront them about what they taught. If someone in TWI did, they could vilify them before and after they gave them the boot. They had control. People outside of the ministry did confront them from a distance. Much of that was what we considered an attack by the adversary. They fed on that kind of "persecution". It all seems pretty embarrassing now.....

Yeah, I am a real baby....40 something! :) Someone needs to tell my aching back. Imagine being 60 and stuck at HQ with no prospects? What a freaking nightmare. We should open a half-way house or have some kind of underground railroad for escapees. It is a bit like the Children of Israel wanting to go back to Egypt. What did they say? At least in Egypt we had cucumbers and a pot. 3 hots and a cot syndrome. That is part of the reason for the recidivism rate of prison. TWI is a bit like a prison. I love the electronic fence analogy. Perfect.

They did become more mainstream Thomas, but I think this letter was written about a time before the splits and offshoots. It is interesting to me that they changed the words about the cross, and about the blood of Jesus. Interesting that subtle changes and not so subtle changes were made in their music to fit their theology. That site is filled with information about their hymnals. It is fascinating to me to see the parallels between the two cults. Some of the letters written by people who have left are filled with the exact same things we read here. The same struggles, fears, the same questions, and the same pain. Heartbreaking really. Armstrong is so similar to VP. Not to get off topic, but this one sounded like it could have been posted here maybe... I sometimes feel like I am going crazy and I shake at night in bed thinking that maybe I have lost my salvation. I have been given so many "warnings" from others still in the UCG telling me to repent and go back to the "true church." When I tell them that I no longer believe as they do, they tell me that perhaps I have lost my salvation and God has hardened my heart. They call me because they are "worried about me." I feel like I never belong anywhere and I can't seem to be able to not think about my past church life. I have been told that I am lawless and don't want to obey God's commandments and that if I don't, I will never receive my "ultimate salvation" and be "born again" in the Kingdom of God. I read my Bible and I have church of god theology swimming through my head. I feel like it's hard to read my Bible and it's hard to pray because I have so many condemning thoughts in my head. Please pray for me. If God doesn't help me soon I am going to go nuts. I can't handle this anymore. I feel cut off from God. I feel it is very hard to go to other churches and to trust people. Thank you for listening. --A. A.

The people I know of who are still in ...(the same ones you know Old Skool), have 30 yrs in...no family to speak of...no skills...no real education....no money.....are pushing 50 and have no real retirement .... who knows if their kids are going to want to be saddled with them. Where are they going to go? We would help them ...but, we are not even worthy of a second thought or response to our overtures....what can they do? They have been tied to TWI since early adulthood. It has shaped them. They would have to start all over. The older you get...the less appealing THAT sounds. All the people who left before them...well, I would imagine those ties have been severed. Maybe leaving is just too much of an effort at this point. The fear of the known is maybe less than the fear of the unknown. What a waste of potential.

It is shocking how many similarities we shared with The Worldwide Church of God under Armstrong. I was reading some of their stories of abuse...some with their leaders...the control, the manipulation. They could have been written here. Here is one about their music. If you get a chance to read some of these letters...it is a real eye-opener. http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/letters/ltrs04.htm#The_Awful_Music I just recently listened to some of the "Bible Hymnal" songs from the Worldwide Church of God tape albums that were sold at the Feast of Tabernacles in past years. I amazingly discovered that all the time we thought we were singing the exact words from the Psalms, Dwight Armstrong (under Herbert W. Armstrong's tutorage?) had ever so slightly twisted the words and subtly introduced fear into the songs. What a heinous thing to do! The songs very much dwelt on "sins" and "wickedness" verses in the Psalms, but would leave out the verses that dealt with peace from God, His bearing our burdens, etc. In the WCG, unknowingly, were starving to know the real Christ and His truth and weren't getting it! The sickening thing about all this is that the WCG leaders (and many ministers also) knew exactly what they were doing all along! In their songs they would change the word "Lord" to "Eternal" in most instances. They didn't want anything to sound like the other "Protestant" Christian music, which they told us was too "sentimental." I also discovered that the WCG changed the words in some of the newer hymns they added to their 1993 hymnal. To give only a few examples: In the hymn "God Be With You," they added a 4th refrain that wasn't at all in the original. In the chorus, they left out, "Till we meet at Jesus' feet." In the hymn "Onward Christian Solders," they changed "cross of Jesus" to "word of Jesus. "In the hymn "I am Thine O Lord," they changed the words in the chorus from "to the cross where Thou has died," to "the way that Thou hast shown," and they changed "to Thy precious, bleeding side," to "Thy ever-ruling throne." (It's true, the WCG never wanted to say the words "blood" if it tied in with how Christ had redeemed us. After all, blood was only mentioned to remind us that that's where the "life" was.) Then I went over the music sheets that the choir used in the WCG, thinking it was all normal classical Christian music. I found out that much of it was taken from Roman Catholic music sheets! And here WCG told us that the Catholic Church was the "Great Whore of Babylon"!

Have you ever read the book of Ecclesiastes? It is all about the hopelessness of mankind and the futility of life without God. It addresses these questions of hopelessness that do arise. Pretty depressing read actually, yet it gives us a solution. It is supposed to point to where God has placed true wisdom, and not just what we see through our experiences. If that makes sense?

Newport of course. There is a great deal to do there...it is beautiful...you can visit the mansions....the ocean.....you can shop....great places to eat.....there is a Casino there. Newport always has something going on and because it is RI...nothing is very far! I am going to RI tomorrow night.

Obviously it is an imperfect mode of communication if I am getting my spelling lessons from you. I was aware of the error, I just didn't bother to go back and correct yet another problem in my post. Pointing out the errors in my posts in no way addresses the questions posed. Language is an imperfect and LIMITED mode of communication as is evidenced by these forums. I have given you a hole big enough to drive a truck threw through so that you could begin to address the ideas of inerrancy. I was trying to help you out! Now I realize that you are so out of touch...you have no idea what I was alluding to...that figures. So, why would God use men, an imperfect and LIMITED mode of communication, and something which could easily be confused....to impart something so important as His perfect will? If He is God, He could have used anything....right?

I don't believe everything we learned in PFAL was wrong. . . . my personal reason for saying toss the baby...the water and the tub out the window is not because the entire class was bogus...it is because it is too difficult to sift through unless one is a trained theologian. Even the way we learned to approach scripture was skewed IMO...and I think it is better to start with a clean slate. I was very interested reading the thread on actual errors in PFAL, it was a herculean effort....but, it is really very difficult to go through all that material and see what was good. Most of us are not trained. Many of us got our knowledge and approach to scripture from PFAL. Funny thing is...VP actually was trained.

The idea that Adam handed over dominion to Satan when he sinned is not unique to TWI....it is why people use terms like we were ransomed or purchased with a price. Although I have never heard it put in terms of legally legal...or ever heard Martindale's strange view of original sin...comparatively speaking VP was not so out in left field on this part of his theology . He was a trained minister at one time...and he did know some theology .....every once in awhile....he used some of it in the class. To Add: It is not a song thread either, but we have a song in it.....I don't think this thread or the song are in the wrong place. You had a question and people tried to discuss...seemed reasonable to me.

Sorry! I will try to tone it down!

I was having fun, and in no way meant to sound defensive or offensive. I am really sorry about that...I have GOT to use those smiley things more. Or tone it down a bit. :) I just think it is good to look at things from different perspectives. The loaded gun analogy is good, but, maybe a bit extreme. It was a tree(I guess) and God was perfectly reasonable to expect them to leave it alone. They were not children...they were fully formed and fully informed. :) Smiley icon! Maybe don't write the gospel off just yet, When you really begin to examine it...it is full of depth and some fascinating answers to the questions it addresses, which are those existential ones we wrestle with from time to time. But, you are absolutely right. One hears this particular explanation...one examines it...one mulls it over, and compares it to other explanations....and one thinks about it. Reason it out...because you really can do that...consider the options and because there is more to it than a verbal confession....there is much more depth there. What did Jesus offer as a way....what did He say....what did He say about Himself and the human condition? What does this love of God mean? If you don't think it through and genuinely see it and accept it...place your faith and trust in Him...it is nothing more than what we did in TWI. Scripture doesn't offer a defense for the existence of God...it simply declares it...explains our relationship to Him....and offers what it declares as the only acceptable way. There are many ways...but, one thing the scriptures do give you is plenty of info! I have read your posts and I relate to what you say...finding out that TWI sold us a bill of goods...after we poured our heart and soul into....it can kind of ruin the bible for us. I have truly been there. The really scary part is...what I found out...is that it is really not about abundance and red drapes...it is actually a bit about suffering. So, we really do have to see something better and beyond THAT option...to actually put our faith in Him. :) If we are looking for an abundant life of stuff now....Jesus probably isn't going to be our first choice, His blessing runs much deeper. He promised persecution, trials, tribulations, and suffering. Hooray! But, He also promised Himself....much better than anything I will ever have here.

I just thought, since she had these questions, and you said God Almighty Himself has entrusted you with the ministry of reconciliation....you would be all over sincere questions... reaching out to her with the perspective of what you call the word of God, which you say you learned in PFAL. I doubt highly, VP was exposed to Karen Armstrong and Bart Ehrman in seminary...they were not around then. Smart people, fascinating premise, and one that raises difficult questions concerning the idea of inerrancy as we were taught in in PFAL. Again, God did chose an imperfect mode of communication, using language.....to impart His perfect will. What is up with that? I think what is really interesting about Job and his friends is that they all spoke the truth....the right words...but, some simply understood them and applied them incorrectly. Ironic! You know, we are allowed to change our minds...grow and learn...there is nothing wrong with that.....there is no shame in that at all. One could even say it is a good thing. :)

And I have an amusing answer... but, first, let me ask you a few questions. Just what do you think God's foreknowledge means? I am curious how you believe that works with God? Can you actually explain that about God to me? It seems you must have a handle on it if,if,if you are judging God's actions by your understanding of His foreknowledge? Where did you learn about His foreknowledge? Maybe God had a plan...and as unfair as it may seem to you...scripture doesn't say everyone is chosen, it says many are called. Many are given a choice. Why shouldn't God put a tree any where He likes in a garden He created? He provided them with every good thing...they lacked nothing...Adam communed perfectly with God...and they were not hungry or lonely or bored or cold or in need in any way. They did nothing to deserve all the wonderful things God provided them after He created them...including fellowship with Himself. Which BTW is the greatest thing of all. God wasn't being cruel when He told them not to eat of it. They had plenty to eat....He wasn't starving them and then telling them not to eat....God did not tempt them in any way. He is God...He said don't do it...but He gave them everything...and the ONE RULE He gave them...they wouldn't keep. Are you trying to imply, the Creator, was not just in expecting them to keep ONE LOUSY rule? I expect more from my pets! Let me ask you....why shouldn't He put it there? After creating man, creating the garden, supplying all good things....and only asking one thing......why shouldn't He have had the expectation they would listen to Him. Same with Satan, God made him beautiful....gave him a purpose.....provided....so, why shouldn't He expect Satan to remain in his office? Are these expectations that are reasonable? But, a just God, would allow people the choice to come to Him freely....no? Not only did they disobey their creator.....the One who gave them everything...but, they made a choice in doing so. Here is the kicker...there was punishment for disobedience, BUT, God Himself made clothes out of skins to cover them.....blood was shed. You want to talk about some symbolism....even though man sinned, God paid their price......God did it!! God provided the sacrifice. Blood continued to cover until the perfect sacrifice came along..... and the perfect sacrifice shed blood to cover us. Sorry to be the bearer of good news guys, but God Himself, did that too. Now, what is the proper response to someone who gives you life...provides good for you....and when you inevitably screw up... they still cover you. Is it to complain? To say it is still not good enough....to say you could have done it better? Is the proper response to reject it and figure it out yourself with better ideas? What if the truth is...there is no other way to save yourself? What if there is one costly and precious way provided through the shedding of blood...and we reject it? Jesus said..He was the way God provided...either He was or He wasn't. Our choice to accept or reject Him. Is God unfair if He doesn't accept another way other than the costly one He Himself provided? Maybe, God had a plan? Just brainstorming here. :)

According to scripture man became God's enemy too....I am not saying we should not look at it symbolically. It just doesn't say God created Satan as his antithesis...obviously it looks like Satan had a choice...so, we wouldn't want to miss that symbolism either. :)

Does scripture say God created Satan as His antithesis? I thought He created him as an angel. Don't angels worship and serve God at His pleasure? With freewill to do so? I don't think they are described as robotic or anything.

Yet, in TWI is where I learned this verse...The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it....go figure?

I love your thought process...you are really examining things. I always look forward to reading your posts. Theoretically, one who recognizes the Lordship of Jesus Christ, is forgiven, but will become obedient to Him out of love...become a servant of right...and is in an accountable relationship with Him. Didn't really happen in TWI. But, if one's attitude is, I will do what I want now and confess on my deathbed...maybe they are not really being brought to a place of true repentance, real Godly sorrow, a genuine understanding of the need for a savior and actual conversion. Sounds more like an embracing of sin and counting on an easy out safety net. I don't think it works that way. The thief on the cross....he saw Jesus and then himself ....he genuinely repented. Being in TWI we had a front row seat to an easy believism.....but, not so much to true faith and real conversion. That is why we saw little transformation to good. We made the word according to VP et al. Lord. It was idolatry and the word according to VP promoted some icky things. I "believe" there is a difference between a verbal confession and saving faith. :)