geisha779

What an intrusive and deeply personal question that isn't really anyone's business. I love the caveat..."no Sunday School lessons". What is this...an essay of ten words or less on why one chooses their faith? Yuck Don't ask a question about the Christian faith if you don't want a faith based answer!!! I noticed you asked but didn't offer your own answer. Why do you care? That is MY question.What is the POINT of such a deeply personal question? How does this expose TWI? This sounds a bit like proselytizing to me and it doesn't sound any different than some new person coming on here and asking why people are not Christian...people go ballistic over that one. Didn't you ask this on another thread? How many do we need? Here is my answer...none of your business.Short enough for you? I could say plenty more.....

I wasn't proselytizing Socrates...and I wasn't extending an invitation for you to believe. Shocker huh? :) I was examining the differences between Christianity and TWI. But, since you asked and I am home sick.......well sickish....... I do think there is a good force in the universe. I do think evil has a face......and do you know why I think this way? Because I have seen evil, and I have seen good. Oddly enough, I have seen them both in myself. So, as a searching person, I began to wonder about this. . . . as one does. Why? Why is there evil and why is there good. What is the cause for this...everything that is...has some kind of cause, except for God. (Wink) The first time I was stung by an injustice, I reacted with indignation. It frustrated and hurt. Why? What made something so unfair it hurt in my heart? The first time I was awed by nature or the first time my heart longed and called out to something I didn't understand......it proved the bible to me. I just didn't know it. We don't go to the bible to learn about life....we live it! We go for the answers to who and why. You say it has been added to and had things taken out.....what things? What do you think we don't have in scripture that is missing? Even old Bart Erhlam once let it slip we have within 2,000 words of the original work. It was in a radio interview. He has since backtracked on his answer, but it was a classic. What we don't have...in no way effects doctrine. Meaning what we would practice from it.....have you actually really looked into these things? There are many great debates out there...really interesting thinking. Or are you still justifiably po'ed. You have a very good reason for being angry, I empathize...but, not to be angry with God. Your experience in TWI could serve to make you even more inquisitive......if it is truth....why do some people use it and twist it for such evil. Scripture answers that question too. God actually promises you a little justice. I wish I had it in me to disabuse you of a few things....I just don't anymore. Once you have examined the historical, the cosmological, the ontological, the teleological, the moral, and the existential arguments for the existence of God.....and really come to examine the cross that cries out from all of them......once you have looked at the evidence for the resurrection, the evidence of eyewitness, the archeological evidence we have.....get back to me on if there is enough "proof" for you. I really don't believe given all we have....that any of us are going to be able to stand before God and say....you didn't show yourself. He came to dwell among us. How much more do you want? The greatest figure in human history? You have heard of Him. You may choose to say...I don't accept Him. That is the choice He gives us. What rings hollow is, I just don't know. You do know who He claimed to be. Look into it a little more before you decide you just can't know...but, if you don't want to , that is your choice. I still like ya!! :) ______________________________________________________ Tony. . . . Heaven would not be heaven for those who do not want God. It would not be heaven for those who wish to be autonomous. It is heaven because we are with Him. God does not strong arm...or trick people into heaven. We come willingly to Him...we desire Him.....and faith is an ongoing and lifelong event. TWI had a children's song...I still remember it...of course we all sang songs like children....but, it was Romans 10, 9&10 I believed it once and then...I've got a life that will never end...I've got Christ in me...whoopee! That is a bunch of crap. Don't you think God is deserving of an abiding faith? Able to keep His own? Don't you think our purchase price is worth more than a mouthed confession and a life of sin? Don't you think God deserves an honest and intelligent faith in Him? He told Job to stand up straight and answer Him. People here are not Christian because they were once persuaded to believe something for awhile. That is not faith. __________________________________________________________ Geeze...that pain pill really kicked in!

The focus of TWI and the focus of Christianity are hardly the same thing. TWI is a pseudo-Christian cult. You made that transition without a break. TWI's focus equals Christianity and its focus? I disagree. Death is not the focal point of Christianity. Jesus Christ is the focal point of Christianity....life is....He is life and people who really put their faith in Him, do it because of Him. According to scripture we are all unknowingly walking around dead in trespasses and sins without Him anyway. The dead don't walk, but maybe there is actually more to life and death here and now. That is something to consider and people who put their faith in Him for self-preservation, have missed the boat on salvation. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance before Him. It is a desire for Him. What if? What if angels could dance on the head of a pin? Why would I ignore the information I do have to genuinely consider from scripture.....and first speculate against it? Life here does matter. It matters greatly. Have you ever really considered the ten commandments? They are so designed that those who obey them do not violate another persons life. Our lives have value and worth. Jesus commanded us to love neighbors as ourselves. Someone actually asked Him, "who is my neighbor?". Jesus explained...everyone is your neighbor. That means I, as a Christian, must not only love everyone......but so much so, I should even be willing to give up my life for them. That is a pretty high bar. Should keep me busy trying to live life right in the here and now. Why assume because someone believes in eternity they are less concerned with their life now? Because TWI equals Christianity?

I don't care what you believe, what I do care is when you use absolutes to tell someone how to judge another, while at the same time saying they can't use an absolute. It is hypocritical. When you tell someone it is okay for them to believe what they want, and . . . . "that's fine, as long as you don't use that belief to judge and rate others. That would be elitist" Wow! Well, if that is elitist....what is the correct way to judge and with what proper belief system. Enlighten me. Christianity says there is one way to God, through Jesus Christ John 14:6...if that is wrong and not the way it is and elitist...what is the right way? You must know if you are telling others not to judge by their Christian faith. Why is it your business to tell someone how to judge and use their faith? People hate absolutes.....unless they are the ones using them.

A lot of bullies back down when stood up to.....when someone calls their bluff.

So true.

Maybe that is why you see a marked difference in people depending on the time frame. VP was insidious....but subtle, yet he still attracted good people with his "father in the word" schtick.On the surface it probably appeared pretty loving? What kind of people are attracted to yelling, screaming, vulgarity, and extreme arrogance? Moreover, what kind of people tolerate it, adapt, and then adopt it for themselves? Different kinds of people...and far different times too. Just a thought.

I see, so you are so sure of what you believe, that it is the right way......that you can actually tell other people HOW they can judge according to their belief system? That is not elitist? You are now pronouncing right or wrong according to what you believe. Wow....the irony. If someone believes the bible is true and Christ is the only way....of COURSE they are going to judge by that belief.....it is their center of reference!! You have a center of reference and that is fine, there are many of them. It is fine as long as you don't tell others how to judge according to what they believe. When you do that, you set yourself up as the arbiter of truth. It is elitist. No one says you have to like how others think.....but, you sure don't need to tell them HOW they can think and what is acceptable according to what you believe. Isn't that what you have the problem with?

Easy believism, cheap grace, and a very shallow understanding of salvation...TWI were masters at leading people astray. 2 Corinthians 13:5

Well, ..... at least I am not an empty floating by. Do you think God will ever spit in my direction? Am I an unbelieving believer? Carnal Christian? In the family, but not the Masters household? Am I sneaking in the back door but not sitting in the living room? Am I in Christen dumb dumb..... ? Perhaps I am a bastard baby left on the side of the road? :) God, please have mercy on those of us exposed to such hatefulness and arrogance of spirit spoken so seductively in your name. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was thinking about the bath water...and then that poor tossed baby.....if the bath water is the theology we rid ourselves of from TWI....dirty and useless....it is probably good to remember....the baby we think we know.....was left soaking in that. Perhaps we need to get some cleaner water which can help us see the baby or God as He is. Theology is important because it isn't just what we use to describe the things we know about God..... it is really how we come to know God. If we have a dirty theology...we know a less than pure and true God. God is too holy for us to sully ourselves in relation to Him by embracing something so dirty as a bit of VP's or TWI's theology. It doesn't sully God....it dirties us. We just get stuck with some caricature of God. There is a revelation of God in scripture that is much different than what we knew in TWI. What harm is there in asking ourselves something so important as why we think like we do about God? Seems like a pretty important question to me. We don't need to fear the answers or be afraid of changing our minds. Maybe even having to say..."I just don't know". There may even be some things we just don't like. It is good to remember that we were exposed to some pretty bizarre and hateful things. . . . doctrines which isolated us from those who maybe can help us overcome them. If we call ourselves Christian...we need to at least be able to reach out to others who are Christians...and understand what it is they embrace. It may shock us a bit to realize we are no where near embracing the same God....the same understanding of scripture....or even the same faith! It is good to work these things out for ourselves.

Me too....I see it the same way. What gets me...is when they use God to justify that moral argument. I am pretty easy going in real life.....but that one...makes me see red.

Okay....so tripped out is...what? Although I am a Christian...by any stretch of TWI standards....just barely would I maybe be considered a carnal Christian. So, what is someone who has known the glorious truths presented in PFAL...and rejected them...only to become a Christian later and identify with more orthodox beliefs like the trinity and the dead being alive right now? I don't even have a problem with raising my hands in worship or wearing a cross. I pray to Jesus....and I think He is worthy of worship. My husband and kids have been baptised. Oh, and I refuse to SIT as learned in PFAL. Won't do it.....I don't even think I can anymore. Am I doomed or just misguided? I think we need a new classification.

I have now :) ...and it was a little disconcerting to see an obituary with my same name on it.

He Googled himself?

Ask a direct question next time Socrates...gee, could you be more specific! I can't really glean from the answer, but since so much of TWI's doctrine was based on the notion that believing equals receiving...... it APPEARS, Johniam, you have thrown out the baby, the bathwater, the tub and all..... right out the window. Possibly, you never really believed PFAL to begin with. Ha! Who knew? What part of TWI doctrine wasn't based in some way on believing equals receiving?

Yes, it is a true story and yes, what he did was absolutely wrong, but does the punishment fit the circumstances surrounding the crime? Those are the moral questions.....people with sick children can be pretty desperate. The sentencing followed the Feds minimum sentencing guidelines(which have since been rewritten and reduced). You raise many of the moral issues surrounding his crime. It really is loaded with questions. Another thing to factor in, is the availability of good health care for the under insured. Obviously he was struggling to meet the demands of treating his daughters illness. Is it moral that things are so costly, people can lose everything just to survive an illness? How much do those drugs really cost to make...how much of the price is profit? So many layers and factors. Yes, questions of morality really can be complex!! I think of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery....according to the law...she should have been stoned to death. That was the punishment. When they threw her before Jesus.....it would have been justice according to the law...for Him to allow her to be stoned....yet, he didn't pick up a stone. He took into account the morality of the situation. The woman was no worse than any of them standing there trying to pass judgment. I think there are grades and shades....of morality. If that makes sense. Something can seem moral...and still not be right. To Add: I don't think the woman's accusers were there...so that adds another layer in that story. Forgot about that.

Something Thomas wrote in another thread inspired me to watch the YouTube video of Hillsong doing How Great is our God. I remember how TWI discouraged expressing emotions(other than anger) and how much they discouraged certain ways we praise. At least when I was involved....there was never any real worship that I can remember....it was all manifestations. I really don't know what we were doing. It was so empty. We mocked people who raised hands...and if I remember correctly...we thought it was opening ones self up to "devil spirits". How do you have an emotional relationship with Jesus...if you have to control, direct, or deny every emotion...again anger was the exception. This would have offended many of us while in TWI . <iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/doiiH2FkIO8" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe>

It was great! Today... not so much... :(

I remember them using Jesus and the money changers to justify some of these tirades. Sad really. They kind of missed the boat on why He was so angry. Spiritual anger? What is that? It is an evil excuse for being a big bully.

This is an interesting and provocative question. I have wondered the same thing too...are there talking points issued somewhere? Good observation...thanks for making me think. Where else did we hear that term baby and bathwater used?

She is hypothetical? So, that means there is no Heinz or a mean and greedy pharmacist? That was a waste of worry....is it moral to make me worry over her! I am just kidding. However, this hypothetical with Heinz is often translated into reality and dealt with in our courts. I think our justice system can be immoral. http://www.famm.org/... John was paying his way through college when he met his wife. After graduation, they married and had two daughters. Brittany, John's oldest daughter, was entering middle school when she developed a tumor on her esophagus. Doctors performed a series of surgeries but the tumor continued to grow around Brittany's vocal cords, forcing John and his family to consider removing them and rendering their daughter mute. They rejected this procedure and continued to battle the tumor with more surgeries, including one that attempted to rebuild her damaged throat, which proved unsuccessful. The extreme financial pressure to pay for Brittany's medical bills and necessary antibiotics was increasing. John was the manager of a Texas dollar store at the time. A criminal informant (CI) approached him about buying multiple cases of pseudoephedrine, a decongestant. The store had a surplus of pseudoephedrine in storage and John agreed. He sold the CI 55 cases of pseudoephedrine on July 31, 2002 for $600 plus an additional $100 payment that John kept. On August 23, 2002, John sold another 92 cases to the CI for $1,200. John was never charged with possessing methamphetamine, running a methamphetamine laboratory or earning money from the sale of the drug. His crime was selling pseudoephedrine, a precursor chemical to methamphetamine as well as a common sinus medication. However, John was held accountable for over 25,000 kilograms of marijuana (converted from a methamphetamine equivalency for sentencing purposes), as well as all of the actions of members in the drug conspiracy. John had no prior convictions and had accepted responsibility for his part in the offense. He pled guilty to the charges, believing he would be sentenced to a maximum term of two years. At sentencing, John was stunned to learn he would be spending almost a decade behind bars under the sentencing guidelines. Two of John's codefendants have already been released. John's family is not often able to visit him because of the distance between their home and his prison. His daughter Brittany now has a permanent tracheostomy—a surgical opening in her throat that allows her to breathe and emit liquids. Her tumor remains a serious concern. John's incarceration has taken an irreparable toll on his wife and daughters, emotionally and economically.

I don't know, but I had to dissect a frog. Hardly seems fair.

I just counted credits. ..... and the quarter system sounds like math to me. Counting my credits was enough of a challenge. :)

Ham..I think it is only 120 credits for a BA or BS although I think it may have been enough b.s. for everyone. It would take 20 courses at 3 credits each for a two year degree...and I don't think you can do an Independent Study toward an Associates Degree. The teacher, instructors, or profs would have to be trained and certified.....and possibly know a bit about what they were teaching wouldn't they? For theology....I am not sure...but, aren't there are certain doctrines which must be taught before a program can be accredited? Isn't that what Atlanta Bible College ran into? A problem about the trinity? Maybe not. Many undergraduate degrees require two years of a second language...I don't think the Greek would count. :) I took 5 years of French. What a waste. I should have taken Spanish and then used it. Oh, and then they would have to have a certain number of electives, at least 6 math credits, 3 100 level history credits, 9 100/200 level English credits.....a couple science courses.....and at least two labs....to make up the 120 for the BA and 60 for the Associates. Am I remembering this right? The first two years one usually doesn't even declare a major do they?