geisha779

Ham, Maybe sometime you would like to check out this guy http://www.ttf.org/index/about/lennox/ I bet you would enjoy reading or listening to him. Maybe even contact him? It might be interesting for you on many levels. :) Please. it is just a suggestion!

It felt contrived, almost like they are trying too hard to recreate the early days of TWI. Engineering spontaneity? My impression anyway. I liked the song though.....

I voted yes. . . . . it is not like it is a big secret :)

Oh YES.....that is a given.

I admire the person who owns this site. I think he is an incredible person and I am thankful he has created this site. I wish I was more like him.... tactful, fair, and non-judgmental. I never go into someone's house or a place provided for me and then insult my host. Bad form.

Leaving those you love.....there is mourning, sorrow, tears, pain and emptiness for the living when a loved one takes their leave. Not everyone wants to go....some have people in this world they cherish and who need them. Not to mention that not everyone leaves quietly or peacefully. Some people suffer greatly before they depart....they linger. Many people place a great deal of value on human life and are not so pragmatic about departure. Some see life as a gift to be cherished. I tend to think, some pragmatic people become less so when faced with their own exit. The times in my own past that haunt me the most are the times I treated human life cheaply. Death is the enemy.

Just to be clear...I know who Rascal is...she is a lovely woman and I have always admired her posts. It was the term "rascal wars" that had me stumped, but just like anything....GSC has a history. I tried to find some of the threads referenced, but gave up after a few minutes. It seemed specific so I was curious... for about a second. I also know who White Dove, Mike, and Oldiesman are too. It makes sense you all would identify a bit more heavily with each other. Got it now.... Thanks for clarifying.....please carry on arguing over words.....the meanings of words...and how to use them. :) I bet you do miss TWI.

My Grandpa lived late into his 90's. He drank a great deal and smoked 2 packs of unfiltered cigarettes a day. He died on Christmas day awhile back. He didn't suffer, he just drifted off. Truth be told...he was not really a nice man at all. He was abusive to his wife and kids. His daughters, my aunts, are some of the most kind, gregarious, and loving women you could ever meet. All of them are stunningly beautiful too, and kind of legendary around here. I marvel that they turned out so good coming from such a father. Not all old man are sweet and gentle. :) Your grandpa sounds wonderful. I had a great-aunt from the other side of my family who I absolutely adored. She lived to be 85. I spent my summers on her farm. My farm now. Before she died I took an oral history from her. She too was born when there was still horse and buggy roaming the streets. I still marvel at all the things she saw in her lifetime. She lost a brother to the great flu epidemic right before the 1920's. Several of her 11 brothers fought in WW1 and then WW2. She and her sister both were Rosie the Riveters....her mother fed people out the back door during the Great Depression.....because they raised chickens and rabbits they had plenty of food. She designed and made barbie doll clothes for Mattel in the 1950's and 60's....I still have some of them...she was an amazing seamstress. I have a dress she made from Parachute silk sent to her during WW2. Her father was a prize fighter who boxed with John L Sullivan. DL Moody sat at the same kitchen table I have today...it once belonged to my great-grandfather. I loved listening to her...history really came to life. We would have a cup of tea every night and just talk. I really miss her!

Seriously, what are the "rascal wars" ?

Jesus doesn't step on people? I really don't think he calls Christians to step on people either? Does He? TWI always did have a very strange view of Satan and his "kingdom"? I doubt SOWERS is any different. Who knows who these people are going to go around stepping on......I shudder to think. Isn't serving Him laying down your life for another if need be? I thought the scriptures say not to be ignorant of Satan, to resist him.......does that include chasing him around? It was Jesus who defeated Satan? Have they heard yet about what happened on the cross? Probably not, because here we have another group taking it into their own hands to save the world. What would God do without the Wierwilles to step in, step on people and get others to join them in the stomping?

Wow, that is amazing. I bet he was a wonderful man.

Christianity is a distinct faith....as is Islam and Judaism.... Buddhism etc...I don't think there is a narrow corridor for a generic reference to an "afterlife" unless we want to trivialize each faith. I don't know enough about other faiths to apply a generic reference to any of it. Christian scripture is replete with specific transformation which results from the indwelling of the HS (who is eternal). If you take that away....it is just people trying to be good according to a few commands I guess? Trying to be good and becoming good are two different things. History is replete with people transformed by the Christian faith.....but, there are people who are transformed to good and people who are just plain bad in this world...good without any faith, bad with faith. Anyone can try to be good.... No? You really don't need Jesus to tell you that. That is not why He came. What Jesus said about loving your neighbor? Not a new or a revolutionary concept and there were many Jewish wisdom teachers around at that time saying the same thing. Jesus said many things...He said love your neighbor, He said take care of people...He told people to be good and then He turned around and said there wasn't anyone who was good but God? He called people dogs under the table.....He said people could lick the crumbs!! He called some people fools...He hung out with the outcasts and criminals....He told His people not to worry about food or clothing....the guy didn't have anywhere to live. He told people not to judge and then He said to judge rightly. Which is it? He said let the dead bury their own. He told one guy to go sell everything he owned and give it all away. He told people to pluck out their eye, cut off their hand.......He said, where I am going you can't know, and a little while later He said...why don't you ask where I am going? He spoke of caring for the poor and then He said the poor will always be around. He chastised people for not having enough faith and then He spoke of faith the size of a mustard seed moving mountains. So which part is the package we hang onto? If you take the things about eternity out of the mix....good luck figuring out much of what He was talking about.

Apparently not enough....they crucified Him for not adjusting it to their liking.

I have to sit down....this is an amazing and deep point.

I wasn't really talking about people who oppose TWI, but people who are still anti-Christian without really understanding what Christianity is about. Look at the question posed in this thread....you cannot separate life from Christianity...it is eternal life, not an after-life. Christianity contends that everyone gets an eternity....not everyone will make a free-will choice to have eternal life. Don't Christians believe that life is something different than what we have while we are still dead in trespass and sin? We believe this time is when we choose what we will serve? Annihilationism is a controversial belief that is fairly relegated to a minority. That minority is usually classified for good reason. What they conclude changes their entire theology. I don't even think Christianity is about doing good and bad for reward.....that is a TWI belief....Christians toss our crowns for another reason entirely. I am anti-twi...or what I believe stands opposed to what they believe and I think it is a harmful organization. If it was just some faith that believed differently than me...I wouldn't say a word, but I have had enough experience and understand enough about them and what they claim as faith...that I feel confident in challenging that. I don't even believe that the people in TWI are the enemy. That also comes from my faith. You can't take a few things Jesus said and build a belief on them. They are all intertwined. There is a distinct message in the gospel. I just think it cheapens a rich and abiding faith to pose supposition to a partial message.....trivialize it. It is beneath all of us. Some atheists are far better people than some Christians.....that is not what it is about. I know there are good people here. I have made some great friends. :) They don't come here anymore. Not because they have moved on....have no interest in interacting......or no desire to reach out. They don't come because of the tenor this forum can take towards Christians. It would just be nice if people extended as much tolerance to Christians as they demand from them. I know there are wonderful people who come and go here...wonderful and very special people. Sorry Waysider that my answer is not short enough for you...guess you will just have to tolerate it until I get banned. I don't like the idea of limiting someones voice. Be it subtle or overt.

If I just woke up one day to find everything I believed was wrong? I would take it seriously and examine why I now believed that way. I take matters of life and faith seriously. Not only my own life but the lives of others have value to me. I would hope that a person invests in a worldview after serious questions, study, thought and self-examination and not just from some indefinable experience. Experiences can have many different explanations. Didn't we all just believe VP had an experience and place a great deal of faith in that event without some serious thought? Snow on the gas pumps? Why would I do that again without really thinking it through? If I don't take what I believe seriously enough to define, defend, or really understand it....I wouldn't expect others to do the same...I would not even expect God Almighty to take me seriously. I respect God. Yes Ham, after careful examination and thought I did find that everything I believed was wrong. Not only that, I found that everything I once embraced actually opposed what I thought I was serving. How is that for a Zen riddle? So, I do understand your question.....and.....what happened is...this time I paid attention. I invested over 6 years of my life learning how to examine evidence, question circumstances, why to trust evidence and what conclusions I could reliably draw. I was held accountable by people who are experts at what they do. I had to defend my work just like you do now. Taking an opposing position with supposition before really understanding the position I am opposing? How far is that going to get me? How much respect should we invest in that approach? We were in an anti-christian cult. We opposed Christianity in TWI by embracing the polar opposite of Christian tenets, doctrines, beliefs and theology. We tried to redefine Christianity to make it palatable to what we would accept instead of accepting that which has already been defined. It seems to me, some people have just made a sideways move. I find the same mocking tone here that we had in TWI. I find the same surface examination in some posters conclusions that we embraced in TWI. Some people have not changed their approach to issues of faith.....they have just adopted a new way of opposing something they don't really understand. If that is what they want and are satisfied with it...it is their choice. Let's not pretend it is not the same intolerance many of us had to Christianity in TWI. What is really a bit sad is that it appears TWI theology is going to be the only real defined belief system in some peoples lives. If that is the case, a pertinent question might be.....why do we really keep it alive day after day and twenty years later? Is speaking against something really enough of a faith for us? Is it a guise? If someone really wants to talk about the importance of life in the here and now.....it seems an honest place to begin.

I can't do it....I really do like your posts and enjoy you!

Well, you ARE a thinking guy....so I am going to leave it up to you to figure out what I am getting at asking you about your name. If Socrates actually was a Greek Philosopher...and a thinker.....and we are fairly confident with some of what we know about him.....the name fits. :)

I don't think it is humorous to trivialize Christianity...or anyone's faith for that matter...I even take Way doctrine seriously because it has an impact on peoples lives. I find it ironic that Islam holds Jesus in high esteem, other people of faith respect and reverence Him as a holy man......but those with no real faith to speak of feel the need to reduce others beliefs down to something like a package and batteries. Yes/No/Unsure....Drive thru saviors? As if there is any real discussion or consideration possible from such a perspective. Apparently my faith is the proper vehicle for jokes. It is shallow, and it is intolerant.

What does being a thinker....which you are...have to do with So_crates? I mean, is that some correlation to the ancient Greek philosopher Socrates?

May I ask why you chose the name SoCrates? I would imagine it holds some significance for you?

Why would one even think this way? Not that I would ever reduce a persons faith to such an a thing as batteries and packages......not if I was seriously respecting their beliefs while trying to understand and asking a genuine question....but, why postulate something like this? Because of a joke made in a class by a cult leader? Obviously it is a complex question....reduced down to a level of a joke....with an added caveat insuring a glib answer. As Socks has pointed out...there is no such thing as an "after life" in the Christian faith.....there is life. That is why Jesus said...I am the way the truth and the life. A bit more involved than yes/no/unsure and far more worthy than a discussion of batteries.

You posted the song, you must have felt it relevant to the topic...their song...your choice to add it to the "discussion". You ask what you claim is a serious question....and then answer in a glib manner? So, what do you think? What is your answer....other than a few jokes and a song or two? I am directly asking you what you think....the same way you posed the question. I am more than open to a serious discussion of my faith...but, THAT is not what you asked for...is it? Please, no Sunday School lessons. Just a simple "yes/no/I'm not sure" and a brief explanation of why (or why not) That tells me that this question is more to make a POINT than to promote genuine discussion. What is that point? That is a direct question to you.

So, this is your answer to your own question then? Peggy Lee answers the question you have posed about a faith you don't embrace, or even understand, which is obvious from the question.......how is it so easy to be glib about what another believes and elsewhere lecture about elitism? The wisdom of GSC posters sometimes astounds me. Here is a verse of scripture since Peggy Lee's wisdom is being considered. “But God said to him, ‘Thou fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ Interesting perspective. Here is what scripture says in relation to your question.... If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

So, what about you? How does it change your view of Christianity? In fact, what do you really know and understand about the Christian faith? Other than your time spent in an abusive cult....how much time have YOU spent examining the arguments for the cross....for the resurrection.....the historical arguments, the ontological arguments, the existential arguments, the telelogical arguments, the cosmological arguments......reading Christian authors...Christian history.....heck, how much time have you spent in the scriptures since leaving TWI? How many times have you prayed to know God, humbly willing to accept what you learn? I am not talking about running to yet another person who denies the scripture like VP...be it dressed up in an intellectual wrapping. I am talking about really understanding faith in Jesus Christ. You see, if you don't even know the Christian faith....some silly question isn't really going to change your view of it...is it? There is no such thing as believing something for a nano- second and receiving eternal life in the Christian FAITH. It is a faith.