geisha779

John...sometimes the punishment doesn't fit the crime, as in the case of minimum sentencing guidelines. The system is not just in that respect alone. A one time non-violent offender on a related drug charge can actually get more time than a person convicted of home invasion. You should consider the bit about buying justice with better lawyers...it is true. Americans incarcerate a higher percentage of our population than any other place on the planet. at 736 out of every 100,000 people. 152% higher than GB. When you break down those US prison stats...black males are incarcerated at a 6 times higher rate then white males. It is obscene. Prison stats, coupled with race and economic stats, should be enough to convince you.

He wrote BOOKS about it. Living in the Eye of the Storm was his work. If he was so feet first into that doctrine and wrong...what else was and is he wrong about? Those waters may run pretty deep and if he is jumping into them with his mouth open...he may just drown. That doctrine hurt people...and some people died as a result. Truly, I hope he works through it all, I would rejoice with him. . . .but, maybe, just not spit out on camera as a bible teacher...each leap he takes? That is not too much to ask.

I think you are right. It is really good that he is coming to these things that have so hurt us....but, maybe, he should just stop trying to teach each realization he is coming to in his own life. Maybe he is not in a position to teach others. If you look at his theology since leaving TWI...it has been all over the map. Why is he trying to teach people each thought that roams into his head as if it is the gospel truth? Personal Prophecy, a God with limited foreknowledge, Momentus, and now this. Most of us came to this on our own and people like John Juedes have been trying to expose it for years. Lot's of bible teachers never bought into the law of believing and cried foul right away. JAL is not a bible teacher. He was in the same messed up cult we were. He needs a good teacher to take him in hand. Why would people continue to look to JAL as an authority? It is obvious he has a great deal to work out in his own mind and life.....why sit behind a desk and spout? I think he is dangerous and a hindrance to those who may be seeking deliverance from TWI teachings. Who knows where his mind meanderings are going to take him next? Wherever it is, I don't understand why he feels the need to drag others along with him. I wish him well, but I wish he would just direct people to some sound bible teachers and let it go. That would be the loving and selfless thing to do. I don't think he can...he believes he is an authority. Also, what is with the mesmerizing hand gestures and that odd cadence in his voice? I couldn't look away...it was all I could concentrate on.

I should have known better...God forbid....we take a poll about being a Christian...be invited to discuss and then actually quote Jesus .... what was I thinking? Let's talk about VP being a pig some more. Have at it....I am done.

Yes, but after the disciples were astonished by all the things He said and asked...basically ...."well, who the heck can be saved?" Jesus said..."With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." It is really God who does it all. Jesus said we had to be like little children....kids are dependent, empty handed, and they know they need. The enormity of what Jesus accomplished on that cross, takes on real meaning....once we know we need Him and are helpless before God without Him...we couldn't do any of it. It really doesn't have much to do WITH us...but, it was done out of love FOR us. God Himself saved us. The disciples walked around clueless most of the time....it is almost comical to read the gospels. Jesus basically said...I have a purpose, this is what is going to happen, and you have to trust me. You have got to have faith in me. They loved to argue with Him. Some things never change. It is even God who gives us the gift of faith to believe. We bring nothing to the table, but we get a great seat! Those verses that bother us...they are supposed to. We can't do it on our own. All the behavior and parameters Jesus put on salvation...are a result of understanding the sacrifice and loving God back with all our hearts.....not a way to earn it. It is impossible to earn it. None of us could have done the same thing Jesus did...despite what I once heard VP teach....and putting our faith in signs like SIT instead of believing Jesus was who He said He was....is the opposite of faith. Much of what VP taught and the way he approached the scriptures is not faith based. I think conviction got to him so badly....he tried to find a shortcut through the things that are supposed to convict us and bring us to the place where we take these things seriously. His was a seared conscience run amok. I don't think mine was so great either, I bought into it.

Mstar said..... I dont want to further complicate Socks thread but since I got the remnants of TWI teachings from my head I now really think that nothing is guaranteed (hence my previous answer) there are just too many biblical warnings similar to that to overlook, take for granted or discard lightly. I am with Mark Twain on this one...."Most people are bothered by the passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand."

HA! Even now at a Sox v Yankess game, I have been known to scream for blood....but then again...they are not so innocent. __________________________________________________________________ I find this topic a bit ironic. Jesus gave His followers a particularly chilling warning when He said ....."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' That is actually the opposite of . . . the Body of Christ is in all who confess His Name and believe God raised Him from the dead. . . isn't it? He is speaking about people who did things in His name...so they must be people who claim His name? No? Many things are done in His name. The Crusades spring to mind. The Inquisition? LEAD maybe? Sexually abusing women and telling them it is okay as long as it is done with the love of God. The chilling part of this verse to me is that it is then He will tell them plainly.....why not tell them plainly now? He is capable of saving anyone. Those He denies in this scenario seem genuinely confused and Jesus doesn't seem contrite about it. Jesus said..."But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." How many of the throngs that followed Him were standing there at the end of it all? Very few. I think the body of Christ is just fine...I have faith in the good head it has on its shoulders...maybe it is just smaller than some imagine it to be. The head directs the body...if you have a problem with the direction of the body and claim to be a member...why not take it up with the head? There may be more to it than the way we think it should function. It is a building up in Christ for God's glory...its ultimate purpose is God's purpose, not who we think it should include, how we think it should be run, or what cultural issues we think it should be tackling. The way it sounds from some here....Jesus is a serious slacker and a lousy head.

Well, you are a person who I don't worry about. :) Here is the thing with those whom Jesus excluded....they were the ones that ended up demanding that an innocent man be put to death and a guilty man go free. Jesus was not guilty of any crime. Yet, the dogs and swine demanded His crucifixion. I think that is an apt choice of words because if He was telling the truth, they crucified the Son of God...if He was lying....considering the things He claimed and believed about Himself....at the least....they crucified someone for being mentally ill. I cannot imagine you in a crowd baying for blood....but, I can picture you at the foot of the cross mourning an innocent man.

They were not excluded arbitrarily, but they were excluded. I pointed out that there were no definitions in your poll because you made a sweeping judgment and generalization about how Jesus ended up with a bunch of followers who spend most of their time finding ways to exclude people and a statement about Jesus running a shop that catered to anyone anytime. Jesus spoke in parables. When His disciples asked Him why....He basically said...because this is for you....not for them. I speak in parables so they won't understand me and I won't have to heal them. I would examine His mercy in this, but this is not the doctrinal section, or a Christian site, and that is a deep faith discussion. Jesus also told His disciples not to cast their pearls before swine and not to give that which is holy to dogs lest they turn around and tear you apart. Dogs and swine? Can you imagine hearing that today? How would you respond? Jesus excluded a whole bunch of people and the things of Christ ....possibly..... they belong to Christians? As a Christian, would you go to a Mosque and expect to fully partake of their faith? If they don't allow you to, do you consider them exclusionary or elitist? You can fully participate if you confess and believe that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet. They have 5 pillars of faith. I had enough sweeping generalizations about how horrible Christians are when I was in TWI. I guess I just don't expect it anymore from those who call themselves brethren.

Deleted....I have no thoughts on the matter....if I answered it would never end.

You did argue with me. I answered you. We disagree. Perhaps it is my communication skills which need work. Either way...I will keep my thoughts to myself from now on. -------------------------------------------------

Linda, Believing Jesus Christ is God is much different than believing He was just a man.......why shy away from the difference? As you can see, I didn't declare anyone right or wrong...I simply pointed out a vast difference in who we believe Jesus is.....that is just the way it is. But, obviously if I believe something different I must believe it is correct. You or Socks must put your faith in the Jesus you declare? So, you must believe that is the right way? No? That is just logical. and I do believe Socks invited us to discuss freely? Encouraged even..... How did you get that I thought this was good pastoring when I said...." I am not saying it was correct to bar anyone entrance without first trying to understand what they were looking for....and I know Mstar has a humble heart....I am sure it was an over reaction. . . " "... Any pastor worth the title is going to keep some of these ex-way people far from their doors." But, why is it okay to jump to conclusions about Christianity because of a pastor and church without first having more details? Many people who were in TWI...don't belong in a church.They are trouble and they hurt people. I am NOT speaking about Mstar...clear enough? Now, I am sure most won't like that little opinion...but, let us all church bash and that is met with great enthusiasm.

Happy Easter Kit.

I think Christianity is actually thee most exclusive faith that there is Socks....and Jesus may have challenged hypocrisy, but He brought exclusivity by claiming there was one way to the Father. You have a poll asking people if they are are Christian without defining what or who a Christian is.... I bet, if we really examined the parameters of the Christian faith....or even just what you consider Christianity....I would not fall into those same parameters. We believe in a different savior. I am not trying to be rude...it is just the truth. As for exclusivity.... Jesus said, take up your cross and follow me...die daily....no man can serve two masters. Jesus Christ, the person in whom Christians place their trust, said it was a narrow gate. What about His conversation with Nicodemus, was He pleading with him to join up? No....Jesus never tried to convert anyone...He declared Himself and He declared God. Many of the records in the gospels reveal a down side to following Christ here on earth. In John, it reveals that once He really started speaking...many of His disciples followed Him no more. They set out to seize Him. Right after Jesus raised Lazarus...they plotted to kill them both. Jesus said...many are called but few are chosen. He said this more than once and in many different ways. When He prayed in John 17, He was not praying for everyone...He was praying for those God had given Him. In fact, Jesus didn't even come at first for you and I ...He came for Israel....""I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." That is pretty exclusive. When a gentile came to Him pleading for her daughter...what was His response? He said, it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs. Wow! That is fairly narrow minded by our standards. When the gentile replied that she would take the crumbs that fell under the table...then He told her that her faith was great and then He healed her daughter. When Jesus said "come unto me all who labor...." who was He speaking to? Sinners? Not everyone thinks they are a sinner.....and does that "come unto me" require something? Continue in my word if you are disciples in deed...You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.... On it goes...exclusivity is an excellent word to describe Jesus. His disciples were so confused by the exclusivity they had to ask Him, "Who then can be saved?" We complain on here that VP didn't pastor his flock, and he didn't ...he ravaged it....but, here we have a church who probably was looking out for their flock, and we jump to conclusions. I am not saying it was correct to bar anyone entrance without first trying to understand what they were looking for....and I know Mstar has a humble heart....I am sure it was an over reaction, but, who knows what kind of issues they had in the past with TWI. John Lynn could have visited their church for all we know. Any pastor worth the title is going to keep some of these ex-way people far from their doors. Some of these guys wreak havoc wherever they go.

So, bear with me....I am still trying to figure out the point of the original program and now its clone in SOWERS. People were to "believe" God to get them safely to rock climbing while purposely using a potentially dangerous method of transportation? I am confused. The point was actually to test God's trustworthiness? Sounds like it. If that was the case, why not just take a plane, train, or automobile to their destination....climb that high cliff and throw themselves off? That way they could believe that God would send angels to minister to them. Same thing in a different form. For a biblical research ministry...they sure missed some of the more obvious things in scripture...commands like "You shall not put the Lord your God to a test." Believe God...test God...seems to boil down to the same thing when putting oneself in a dangerous situation just so God can get one out of a dangerous situation. I think there is a difference between presumption about God and actual obedience to God.....the LEAD program sounds like a great deal of presumption.

That is a great song. Thanks Old Skool...I thought it was some SOWER too.

I have read that several times...I had to read it several times to actually get through it once. :) I love CS Lewis. He taught at Oxford too and if you ever get there you can take a tour of his haunts. Bodleian Library, a very cool place, has a wonderful collection of his papers. William Lane Craig, Dan Wallace, and a host of others deal with the current crop of bible debunkers. Wayne Grudem has a great series of books if you are ever interested. We went to see Ravi Zacharias not that long ago..... excellent speaker. Fascinating the way he deals with peoples questions. For me, the questions have been asked and answered to my satisfaction.

I officially change my vote to the Yankees. Now that the pinstripe issue is resolved....can we do something about Jeter?

Honestly, I can't understand why hitchhiking and LEAD were so important to him, there had to be a motivation behind that program. I am guessing it wasn't because it was in the best interests of the people participating. After the first dangerous incident most people would have rethought the whole thing. Well, most people would not send others hitchhiking to rock climbing...but you know what I mean. In answer to your question, I think much of what he said was to cover his own ....self. I listened to him yesterday for a few seconds and he was yelling about natural man....actually he was yelling about his critics. Implying they couldn't receive the things of God. Many of his critics were Christians. I do remember agreeing when he spoke of his critics and my outrage on his behalf...it was so slick.

Exactly. Bible debunkers have some pretty intelligent debunkers themselves .....and on it goes. . . you can have both intelligence and faith. It is pretty interesting to listen to bible debunkers questions and then hear those questions answered by some brilliant Christian apologists....to have their methods and approach addressed. I think if one is honestly asking these questions......that is the place to go. To the people answering the questions. If it is just an agenda.....it isn't any different from what they think they are trying to debunk. It gets pretty real! I am satisfied with the answers. :)

That is pretty real. _________________________________________________________________________ Bible debunkers and bible defenders kindred spirits? Maybe...because both can certainly push their POV as the correct one. Either way....the bible has long outlived its pallbearers. I don't suspect the author of this article is going to fare much better.

Maybe...but I think much CC music is geared towards worship...so maybe not. <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QacLbnVVdnk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Although this isn't specifically about the WC, it does have some video from a graduation. If you don't agree with the report...just turn down the volume and enjoy the photos.....I suggest that anyway, unless you want to hear VP scream preaching from the pulpit about the "natural man". A one and ... <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0uH-fa15q8M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> a 2.... <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bLSygDuPLfc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I simply told you what I do and believe is bad form....you on the other hand.... are free to behave as you wish. Did I tell you that you could not say anything bad about the "leader" here? Did I say there was a leader here? That is all on you. Personally, I don't want to be associated in any way with your comments about the owner of this site, I don't agree. Again....those comments are all yours. Take Care!

That must be why the scriptures say that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light? I don't get it? Even when I drinking the bathwater flavored kool-aid....I didn't understand why TWI had such an intimate knowledge of Satan. That was one of the things that once puzzled me.....now I understand it..... they just made it all up as they went along! :)