geisha779

I was with someone when they died.....just last month. There was nothing very insightful about it. It was just horrible. There were no great revelations, no forgiveness, or even remorse for those he had so hurt in life. He had opportunity to reach out, but instead he died very angry....just as he had lived. I asked many of the Hospice workers about this, because some of his anger was directed at me and I have been unrelenting in my care for him this past year. Hospice told me that people usually die....in exactly the same way they lived. If they were angry and unforgiving in life....they will be angry and unforgiving at their death.

John, VP seduced people away from the Jesus Movement, true, but it wasn't started because two guys sat through the first 4 sessions of PFAL. Maybe you didn't mean to imply that, but that is what it sounds like you are saying. VP pulled them away from an already vibrant movement. I hate to burst your bubble, but Dale Carnegie was teaching session one of PFAL long before VP and Napoleon Hill before that. The mystery? There are seven mysteries in the NT and the bible teachers I know teach ALL of them. Administrations? Dispensationalism has been around a long time, since the 1800's. John Darby? There are 5, 7, or 12 taught depending on who you are listening to at the moment. We know where he got RTHST and the only one who went after that with a vengeance was VP when he took another mans work. VP didn't teach anything new. People can be cruel and hateful.....to Christian and atheists alike.....but the idea that the devil was out to get us because we had special knowledge....is a mindset we need to really examine and be delivered from IMHO. Christians are actually killed for their beliefs today....and that seems a bit more harsh than someone slamming a door in our face...no? I am not speaking about PFAL grads...but Christians who believe Jesus is God, who believe the dead are alive....who may not embrace dispensationalism, and who may believe all 7 mysteries are of great importance. This reality....puts your theory to the test. Is the devil angry over the knowledge they have? It is often in direct opposition to what VP taught. VP certainly put his bizarre twist on things, but it was nothing new. When broken down....much of what he taught you was anti-Christian. Maybe it was VP doing the devils work for him? After all, the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. VP did manage to axe Christ from Christianity. No mean feat. Much of what you regurgitate from PFAL stands in direct opposition to Christianity....which is why I think you often come up against the Christians on this forum. It was a cult John, and it fell apart when the charismatic leader died. . . . . this happens to many cults unless there is someone as equally charismatic to step in.

I sold antique china on the internet and to get my items I would do the auction circuit.......I once bought a 1,000 dollars worth of Franklin Mint solid silver medallion set for 15.00 dollars. The auctioneer never looked at them closely and I got them for next to nothing. I then sold them for a huge profit! Another time I bought a bow and arrow for 35.00 dollars...some super sought after fancy one, again the auction house messed up. I sold it for 700 dollars on eBay. It went to Canada and the guy was thrilled with the deal he got. I love it when that happens!

I am sorry if you think you are being bullied, I don't think that is any one person's intention. I can see where you might think it is a pile on though. . . . ...................................................... I edited the rest.

Without looking...what does the next verse say? Context ?

I have to wonder what you do with verses like this ...He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me? declares the LORD. Jesus saying, I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink....I needed clothes and you clothed me. Words straight from the mouth of God and it appears that is what we are judged by... There is not a great deal of hidden meaning in those words.....visit the prisoners....minister to the sick. I have to say, my life would be a whole lot easier if I didn't take Jesus at face value. It is not works as much as a result of believing in and loving the one who saved us. Faith? A result of true faith? So, when Jesus says...I was hungry and you didn't feed me....PFAL grads can say...yeah, sorry about that, but I browbeat 3 people into taking the class. I was gonna bring you that cup of water, but I took "Dealing with the Adversary" that weekend. I would have come to the prison, but that branch meeting ran long and I would have brought you a blanket, but my WOW coordinator wouldn't let me out past midnight. And Lord, they were running CF&S ....you didn't want to miss that wisdom did you? Great post Kit....carry on sister!!

Another twist on cleaning is to offer help with organization. Hubby and I did this up until last year. We didn't really houseclean, but we helped people organize their homes and offices. You can even become a certified organizer. Oddly enough, there is a huge demand for this service. As much as we enjoyed the work, the clients drove us crazy as they were all at certain stages in hoarding and there is a wealth of psychology behind this condition. It was always two steps forward and one back. We never lacked for work though.... because.... the same people always needed us a few months later after they had again accumulated a house full of stuff. Repeat clients! Strange demographic...usually divorced women over 50 with an excellent education, beautiful homes, and hefty income or alimony. They were all incredibly scattered and juggled their lives in a fascinating, but precarious manner. They became very dependent on us and although they recommended us to others(word spread) they were all oddly proprietary concerning our services. We were so busy we were turning people down. We couldn't do it anymore because they were all a bit too crazy, but we charged a small fortune and no one ever made a peep. . . .we did get temporary results, but it was so frustrating to see them backslide into chaos without us there everyday. One woman would take a load to the dump, after we had worked with her for WEEKS to get it together....every scrap of paper or piece of trash had to be examined. When she would come back from the dump it was always with more than she left with. Even when we went with her we couldn't stop her from grabbing things she swore she might "need" someday. If you have patience.....and can organize and decorate.....you can make a serious living.

Twinky, Any product placed in a store has a chain of people behind it....companies hire independent contractors to make sure their product has prominent placement....or is on the sales floor at all....and is kept tidy and merchandised. Today I will be working on the Discover Card Campaign. I will visit a bunch of different businesses, sticker the window, hand out material and educate them on the benefits of accepting Discover card. Piece of cake. Each account will take about 5 minutes. Since I was able to pick the accounts I wanted....they are all within a certain geographical proximity...and I am able to do quite a few. Discover sent me the material....I trained online....I am paid a flat rate for each account and, they pay mileage as well as a fee for each digital photo I take. I sub-contract my work from several major merchandising companies. Most business hire these companies to look after their products. A few of them have me as an actual employee so that I receive mileage, but for the most part I am independent.There is a great deal of freedom in my work. My husband and I work as a team. There is no one looking over my shoulder, and I report my info on-line. I can go a year without ever seeing a supervisor. I decide what jobs I want and how much work to take....but, there is always plenty to do. I know the UK has merchandising jobs...Boots, Debenhams, Homebase, and smaller boutiques stores all have products which need merchandisers and some marketing. The other thing Socks mentioned about eBay is great too. With all those Charity shops...you could find some lovely things. I like working for myself....and there are many ways to make money. There is always Oxfam, and with your legal background I am sure they would consider you an asset. Lot's of travel and making a difference. People also contract their work from them. It is a great organization...you might just love it. My sister in-law does independent consulting in the UK and works from her home in Oxford....maybe you could do that?

The title of this thread..."You just can't make this stuff up" ... I guess you could, but, who would believe you? It would make a great Reality Series.

Well if it is not...you can report me to the thread police.

Oh please....it was a simple side conversation about Judas...asked answered and over now...I think you can deal with it.

I never said Jesus wouldn't forgive him....no where does it say that Judas wanted, accepted, or asked for forgiveness...instead, it tells us clearly that he killed himself. As you point out, Judas was given every chance to repent. Jesus made appeal after appeal to him. Loving and tender appeals. Compare the love John had for Jesus to the hatred Judas had for him....take a look. John was right next to Jesus laying against Him. Judas was there lying to Him. When Jesus dipped the bread and gave it to Judas....John was right there to hear Him...it was Peter who prompted John to ask. No where does it say Peter tried to rearrange Judas face. How hard of heart must Judas have been to ignore those heart melting appeals from Jesus? Again, read the scriptures....read Jesus' own words for the answers. He said Judas was lost. Should end the discussion for most but, take a closer look if that is not enough. He is called the Son of Perdition!! Jesus said it was better if Judas had never have been born, because he knew the Son of Man face to face...was once close to Him but he rejected and betrayed Him. Just as it tells us that the punishment for false teachers is exceptional and (it would be better for them if they never knew the way of truth)...so will be Judas' punishment. Jesus was making a point about the serious nature of eternal punishment and you equate his words with abortion? It was a warning. Maybe the OT account of David and Ahithophel will help clarify things for you....maybe not.

Not that it is going to matter to you what I say ....but.....Jesus said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born. You are reading into scripture what you want to believe and ignoring the clear scripture which tells you the opposite. I have to wonder why it was so important in TWI that we believed things like Judas being forgiven? That kind of teaching stems from the cheap grace we embraced and instead of magnifying God's forgiveness this teaching diminishes it in many ways. BTW....Judas killed himself. That speaks of unrelenting despair ...it doesn't illustrate God's forgiveness. What would be the point of reading into the scriptures what we want to believe? Same with the law of believing.....we wanted it to be that easy.

while ignoring the clear scripture where Jesus actually did speak specifically about Judas..... While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Hey, I work for myself doing something similar ....along with many other merchandising and marketing jobs.....sub-contracting work and being self-employed offers me a great deal of freedom to do other things. I don't think it is such a bad way to earn a living! I could do many things with my degrees...but, I like the flexibility. Does that mean my position is society in problematic? Of course, I am not trying to start up yet another off-shoot. I am just trying to live a quasi decent life. When it gets to the place that it is an off-shoot to an off-shoot......is there another term for it? As far as not judging JAL and his supposed walk with the Lord.....I already did something similar and I landed in TWI swallowing great big handfuls of garbage for years. I really don't think God wants us to ignore all those warnings in scripture so we can fall prey to any wolf in a sheep costume. If that were the case, I could never judge between the Benny Hinns and the Billy Grahams of the world. Any yahoo with a bible can try to teach it but, not everyone who mentions the name Jesus actually walks with Him. I think I read that somewhere? To each his or her own....I choose to judge.

It is curious why people would still turn to these ex-twi "leaders" for spiritual guidance or learning. I don't understand the motivation. They were in the same cult we all were......they made the same bad decisions we did in propping up VP and company. It was the doctrine and practice of TWI that allowed for such systemic abuses....and most of these ex "leaders" were involved a very long time. They were not the swiftest to catch on. Where do their qualifications come from? Not a healthy place. Many of them got involved as young adults...had their lives shaped by their twi experiences.....and probably need some sound guidance for themselves. Why are they trying to lead people? VP and Martindale's tutelage was not a healthy way to learn compassion, basic coping skills, or assimilation. Right? If you jump from one group to the another made up of the same pool of people....without stepping away from the cult mentally.....how is that good? It was TWI that taught us to distrust other groups of people....other teachers.....other ideas. If we keep coming back to these guys because we don't trust or are not comfortable enough with others...we have not really broken free. I think people like JAL perpetuate and take advantage of that.

Well, at least you are free to assume about people however you choose.

I don't have a problem saying "singing in" the Holy Spirit is not biblical..it isn't. I just wondered why you had to hold a particular person up to ridicule is all. Although, theoretically, if one is truly offering praise to God...wouldn't it be just like Him to be there to accept it? If God is present in that way accepting praise...one would think the Almighty Creator...would actually have a recognizable presence. He is pretty holy...He makes an impact. :) Maybe she was just confused or had experienced the presence of God in worship and was trying too hard to share that in the wrong format......perhaps it was more innocent than evil.

Of course, being in TWI made us all experts on the Holy Spirit and what we did or believed about God was never strange or completely off the mark. We were about as nutty charismatic as it gets..... and we were certainly using good judgment and discernment propping up a serial predator and molester as we sang his praises. What is the point of dissing this woman Frankie.....who is not here to defend herself? ................................................................................ It is kind of ironic that it was the Jesus Movement that really challenged traditional songs...pipe organ and hymnals.....and gave birth to the contemporary Christian music we have today. It is a few generations later and many from that era are longing for a more traditional approach. I wonder if that is how the over 40 crowd felt when they heard the 2nd Chapter of Acts play? :) It is true...we have become our parents. I am sincerely more than thankful to those who revolutionized praise music.....there would not be so many wonderful options today. Thanks to those of you on this thread who had a hand it that..... a few of you really did... you helped paved the way. Imagine what it would be like if those young people had not reached up praising and expressing it in their own way?

Everyone has a hymn, revelation..... word of instruction. Not everyone is going to coordinate the music for a 1/2 hour on Sunday. I think people should speak up if their needs are not getting met, but, we are always free to sing to the Lord to our hearts content in whatever style we choose. When we come together to praise or worship for an hour......is it really that big of a deal what style the music is as long as it is real praise? I am not a musician, so to me...I am always amazed by the whole thing. I still cannot figure out how such beautiful sounds come out of hitting a few piano keys or plucking a few strings in the right way. I will never understand how I got such a talented kid. I just like that I am there with people who love the Lord and want to sing to Him and I still am a little awed He even let me around His wonderful children after my attitude toward them in TWI. Go figure.

I wonder if the Lord thinks that the praise coming from the hearts of those those singing and writing is a stale praise or format? The music isn't for or about us...it is music sung to or about the Lord. No? I for one, am thankful He will accept a "Joyful Noise" if it is given with a pure heart. It is about all that croaks out of me these days. I am not really musically inclined. I don't think God cares if it is repetitive or a 7-11.....as long as it is joyful and full of praise. A story Mike Card once told has always stuck with me ....he was listening to a praise song on the radio and found himself critiquing the music and lyrics, thinking this was off and that was wrong...then he felt that conviction and the Lord asked Him "Don't you think that he is praising me with all his heart?" Then that PRESENCE we Christians know....left him...as it does when the Lord makes that kind of point. God usually makes His point with a question, not an answer. I know some of these musicians or am close to someone who does. They are some of the most humble servants you could ever meet. Their lives reflect their faith and I am so thankful for them and those who give of their talent for the Lord. It is not perfect, but if it is praise given to God with a pure heart...I doubt it displeases Him and isn't He the whole point?

ClayJay, Why don't you go to the Pastor or to the praise band and tell them you would like to sing some of those songs? I have to admit, I rolled my eyes when I read you purposely missed the "praise aspect" of a church service. Maybe it was the added quotation marks, but you actually should be comfortable and enjoy the entire service. They should, in some way, accommodate people who like to sing in a more traditional style. We have two services....the earlier one has the more traditional hymns. Your desire to sing praises, from your heart to the Lord with the brethren, is obviously a need in your life.... I encourage you to speak up. I would hope they listen to your needs. My kid is usually in whatever praise band is around...so I was forced to stay at first. I am a mom. I wasn't always comfortable though...it took me awhile. The first time we sang the simple song "He knows My Name" and I really heard the lyrics....it felt like God was reaching out to me. I was pretty undone. I hope you get to speak to whoever does the songs at the church and tell them what you need. Here....Oh For A Thousand Tongues To Sing was always one of my favorites too. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/igvtsUfD5xM" allowfullscreen="" width="425" frameborder="0" height="349"></iframe>

I don't think society at large valued VP...he was a cult leader and most outside our sub-culture that knew of him...knew what he was....others were smart enough to stay away or just not care. We were a small specific society centered around a personality. When the personality was gone...the society fell apart. We may have called ourselves the "household" of God, but we were nothing more than the house that VP built on sand...IMO. Add: And yes, I believe he was a bully.

That is it exactly. Another way to put it might be always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. The shoe fits.

There are some wonderful Prison Ministries(Chuck Colson) and real Pastor's who volunteer their time to hold services every Sunday. Inmates have access to bibles, bible study. and fellowship. There are mentoring programs designed and implemented by Christians to help inmates assimilate back into society when they are released. If you have some time Johniam, you should check it out and volunteer. It might give you a better perspective on what it means to make your own luck. Well worth your time at the least and a good way to serve the Lord. Visit the prisoners. I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.