geisha779

Sir G, Bruce Lee.... Enter the Dragon? Funny, that is funny because it is so poetic and the way you used it was so apropos. I don't always agree with you or with cman for that matter....but I do glean some really great wisdom. I should mention that I appreciate that and both of your contributions. Bruce Lee? I think it sounded nicer coming from you. :)

Add to this....the isolation from real Christian influence, or any other influence really....the subtle and not so subtle bullying....the constant exposure to the same material over and over again.... it is no wonder we couldn't think. Basically everyone other than wayfers were off limits. Worldly influence or carnal Christians were dangerous! Even some Wayfers were off limits if they fell far enough from grace. Many of us lived, worked with, ate with, and breathed other believers. People were in our lives, our space, our heads.....there was manipulation with fear, pride, and ego.....if that didn't work to keep the abs rolling in...there was always actual threat. The worst thing TWI played on IMO is people's desire to do good and be committed to something. When everything in life, often including spouse and family, is wrapped up like that....in one small sub-culture....it is nearly impossible to stop and think. I am happy it is over. I still miss some people though...and I still think TWI had some exceptional people.

Hi Pat.... WordWolf did a great job explaining this to you as we understand it....I say we because his explanation is how I too understand it. I would only reiterate that if you look at these questions from the vantage point of God's condescension(Which is a major plot line in scripture)...it not only begins to unfold how God doesn't really change His mind...., but more importantly....it begins to reveal a truly loving and compassionate God. He condescends, because He is good. God is good. He doesn't have to do any of this...use language so that we can understand....and He certainly doesn't have to use anthropomorphic language(taking on human attributes) but He does. He could answer us with one lightening bolt for yes, two for no. From the beginning He has always used language..... Jesus is called the word. Speaking directly to the account in Numbers of Baalam, if you take a look at it..... the statement, "God is not a man that He should lie"....it is an overall true statement, but it is also directed specifically to Baalam....a lying prophet. It is contrasting two natures...God vs Baalam. There is also a difference between an edict and an absolute command. Note God's conversation with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah. ( I know WW covered this) But, God did allow Abraham some wiggle room. It wasn't as if old Ab was more moral than God in pleading for those lives.....and Abraham kept confessing each time he bargained..."we know you are merciful." He wasn't flattering God or manipulating Him, Abraham knew God. God was gracious and very generous with Abraham in allowing him to ask. That was for Abraham....not for God to change His mind. That is how God is...gentle, loving, kind and generous. He cares, He loves, and He gives amazing gifts to people. Look at the account of Him wrestling with Jacob. When He asked Jacob what his name was...it wasn't because He didn't know. He was giving Jacob a chance to come clean. Jacob had lied about his name to his father. When God asked Jacob his name.... that was condescension and also amazing grace. God also gave Him a new name. That always moves me. He also left Jacob with a reminder...and that too was kindness. Jesus healed the man who was born blind for God's glory.... at first glance....this can look pretty messed up. Jesus was undoing what He basically said God had done. Yet, He was doing it for God's glory. Huh? What about the poor guy who had to suffer blindness for God's glory....seems paradoxical to a loving God. The cheap way out is to say God is a contradiction. However, we look at things from a different vantage point than God....linear....in the moment. The 30 years or so this man was blind is nothing compared to the glory of his eternity. God knows this. Our momentary suffering is nothing compared to the far more exceeding weight of eternal glory. For God to say something once...it is enough....but, He reaches out again and again. In TWI we were trained to spend all our time arguing over nuances and words....all time wasted IMO when we could have been coming to know Him and reveling in Him and His goodness. It is like a beggar being given a 7 course meal and only sitting there complaining about the spot on the silverware. Sorry this is so long....if you got through.....I applaud!! _________________________________________ Excathedra: How about instead of saying we are thinking we know more than God.....maybe some of us are speaking to each other to come to know Him. I don't think anyone here really thinks they know more than God....but sometimes it is good to relate with the people touched by the same aberrant influences. Hope that makes sense.

Spot on ....knowing that God can do anything He pleases is not the same thing as knowing what God pleases. Saying He can do anything and then assuming He will contradict Himself is really not the fear of the Lord. That is bringing God down to our level rather than seeking His. God is inviolate, in tact..... Through scripture, God does express Himself to us. Yes, it is with imperfect language, but it is not impossible to glimpse at the complete holy and right state of being which is God. To us, finite beings, who are imperfect and flawed, completeness and perfection are almost impossible concepts. They can seem paradoxical. However, paradox is not always the same thing as contradiction, although people often use them interchangeably. To explain Him in finite terms is just futile and we end up with nothing IMO. Well, we end up with a pretty shaky and uncertain God. Rather, as you say, assuming we are missing something....and having that humbleness before complete perfection......our questions are usually answered. It is a relationship....and it grows. Knowing our place in the relationship really does help. We are not the definers...He is who He is....but, when trying to describe the indescribable...it can get pretty tricky. There are a great many temptations to neatly wrap it up. I think you should, as you have offered, write out some of these things. Although you may not see it right away....it does reach, touch, and help people. It might be like Nicodemus coming in the night...but, people do let you know.

Oh, that was me? I thought I was responding in general to the assertions made in post 50#. To judge that God cannot contradict Himself is to reduce God to the level of man. It is to put God in a box. God can do ANYTHING He dang well pleases! That's why HE is God and I am not. To recognize that God can do anything He dang well pleases, and I cannot, IS the fear of the Lord! God CAN contradict Himself! And He does so every time we draw breath. Waysider.....will you please just put me on ignore? I am asking nicely and I would greatly appreciate it.

Sir G....that is almost too beautiful an analogy to apply, but apply it does. Nicely said. _______________________________________________________________________________ “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” To say that God does contradict Himself is to judge God and reduce Him to a man....To deny the multifaceted relation of being which is God is to deny ourselves. We are made in His image and most of us can at least attempt to articulate what it means to temper justice with mercy. Milton understood this. Most people do. It doesn't make them contradictory concepts. It makes them attributes in perfect relation to each other. True fear of the Lord is to recognize who He is as He is......a being in perfect relationship.....and not simply say because He can do something....He does. God is inviolate. Perhaps, the problems in TWI and CES do not simply come from believing the bible doesn't contradict itself, but rather......what a man purposes in his heart...so is he. Most Christians don't believe God contradicts Himself....yet, they do not handle the scriptures deceitfully. A and B do not equal C.

I agree....God is really indescribable with words.....they are insufficient. Yet, I believe He has used this imperfect mean to communicate Himself to us.....that in itself is pretty awesome to contemplate in relation to an infinite and perfect God. It is another way He reaches out to us IMO. It seems we got so caught up in those words and their meanings and the desperation that we actually missed the beauty of the Lord and couldn't come to terms(as you say) with the Him that goes beyond words. :)

Man's freewill? The scriptures say that we are dead to sin and basically dependent on God for our every breath. If you are speaking man's freewill choice to believe....the scriptures say we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves. When Peter told Jesus that He was the Christ...Jesus told Peter....flesh and blood have not revealed this to you.......but my Father which is in heaven. Freewill described in scripture? We are bound by one thing or another and freewill in common vernacular......I don't really find that articulated in scripture. God is sovereign and man is either bound by sin and death....or man is quickened by God. We all serve something and we are all subject to our flesh. That is according to scripture. There is not really a contradiction. The scriptural concept of what you call freewill may not exist....and it is pretty amazing to see how God works in a sovereign manner within the framework of the fall. It is a beautiful dance. It is one of those awe inspiring and praise worthy things we Christians prattle on about. The scriptures say that God moves nations for His purposes.......yet life still goes on...nations choose what they will.....but God is in control. It is a matter of understanding HOW He is in control......how the providence of God works. He is blameless for evil.....yet His purpose are ultimately served. I never tire of examining these attributes of God's character......it makes me love and worship Him all the more. If you want to bring up the issue of evil...that is also an amazing thing to examine in scripture. :) Turns out...not a real contradiction, but something that is woven into life with God right there with us(including the most horrific suffering).....as we know....He too suffered horribly, died, and was buried. He is not immune to our suffering, He has suffered for us...and He promises to one day wipe the tears from our eyes. Most things people call contradictions in scripture....are usually things with some depth....and things which require us to humble ourselves before Him and allow Him to unfold them for us to understand. That is my opinion. Scripture too if you really look. When the question is framed as you have done........it looks like it is a difficult contradiction, but what does the bible really say about freewill?

Waysider....how many times in a day do you refer to that website you love to link to? Do you go to work and tell your co-workers they are engaging in straw man arguments...ad hominems, genetic fallacies or their questions are irrelevant? Who made you the discussion police? You really believe I was asking you that question to devalue your position? That would mean I would have to care for more than a moment what your position is( I am not that vested)...or I would have to be very devious...think what you will. You are right though....after that thread and your responses I did form an opinion of you and your perceptions. Right or wrong....it happened. It was from opinion that today I wondered how much time you have actually spent searching these supposed contradictions. The horror...it came into my head and out on to the page. Bad, bad.....ad hominem, straw man, genetic fallacy, red herring , Geisha. LOL I should have cut the grass....I will know better next time I am tempted to post.

I am not in class Waysider...I am on an ex-cult forum and I should do many things that I don't. I should be mowing the grass right now. But, thank you for telling me what I should and shouldn't do and again telling me that my curiosity is irrelevant. If I knew how....... I would simply post a cartoon of a dog chasing its tail in response. Maybe that would be relevant? Maybe a song? A joke? Some relevant lyrics....but heaven forbid...I ask a direct question.

Why is it irrelevant that I wonder when it was you last picked up the bible? My curiosity is not irrelevant to me . Considering your opinion...it seemed a reasonable curiosity. We are speaking OF the bible and you do have an opinion. How can you have an opinion if you haven't really searched the scriptures....at least a reasonable opinion about its seeming contradictions. That is why I wondered about the last time you gave it any serious and prayerful thought. Not irrelevant......just annoying. .................................................. So, it was a big lie because VP used inerrancy for his purposes and we fell for it....that makes the claim that the bible doesn't have contradictions a lie? But, then again....God purposely wrote tensions into scripture for us to decide what to believe? Which is it? Is it a lie because VP used it or did God write tensions into scripture? OR did VP use the idea of inerrancy with a nefarious purpose? You know, it could just mean VP manipulated us with a peculiar twist on inerrancy. What I do know...is it can't be both a lie and God's purposeful handiwork at the same time. That is a contradiction.

Off handed rejection? How many times have we had this conversation here with the same people? What is your problem? I said in my opinion....there were far worse things....think whatever you like.I never asked you or anyone to agree with me. And Waysider, my comments don't make it a straw man argument....she said one of the biggest. I said it was low on the list. Comparing the list and where this falls IMO is not a straw man argument. Acceptance of inerrancy is high on your list...not mine. I have to wonder though....when was the last time you picked up a bible and really prayerfully considered things you call contradictions. So, Steve, are there tensions intentionally written into the bible ....or is it a big lie that it doesn't it contradict itself? They are not the same thing? BTW....YOU said it was a big lie because we bought the answers TWI gave us...Tazia didn't say that. She may have other reasons for believing that the bible doesn't contradict itself is a big lie. Ya think? Maybe before you jump all over me...she could articulate her argument.....so when I do disagree with her, as I have in the past over the same topic....you will have something to actually SNIPE about. I don't believe the bible does contradict itself.....so...I don't believe it is a lie whether it came from TWI or not. I believe people have difficulty understanding scripture without a humble heart before the author. We may have put our faith in the wrong thing with TWI....PFAL and VP. It doesn't follow that because we bought into that theology......the bible contradicts itself and saying it doesn't is a big lie. VP is not the only one to ever make that claim....most bible believing Christians are in that boat.

I don't know Steve, I personally think that saying sex outside of marriage would heal a young unprotected and vulnerable woman was a pretty bad lie.....that spiders coming out of someone's nose in a vision could break up a marriage......pretty bad. All the women belonging to the king with a wink and a nod.....much worse than saying the bible doesn't contradict itself IMO. Suicide being a direct result of the lie that adultery was okay if done in love of God....bad. That the bible doesn't contradict itself? As a Christian understanding this just takes some time, prayer, patience......and a really good dose of a humble heart as a finite being....in relationship to an infinite God. Realizing we may never understand it all......that is life. Dealing with the tensions in scripture.....welcome to Christianity 101. Why is it we think we have to arrive at one end of the spectrum or the other? For what is worth to you... I did read what she wrote and again.....with all the heinous acts perpetrated by TWI and its off-shoots......and I believe they are bigger than you realize......that the bible doesn't contradict itself is pretty low on the list. IMO Quite an absolute statement....saying this is a lie from hell...no? Ironic too.

Of all the heinous things TWI and some of its off shoots have perpetrated and this is what you have ONE of the biggest problem with? Really? Edited for Steve

Well, not to be too picky, but in terms of what happened with Jesus.......all the evidence in scripture doesn't really point to a great epiphany of error for the crowds....even Pilate knew who He was....that is why he had the guards paid off. Remember, the body was missing! These people knew who Jesus was....who He claimed to be....and many of them had followed Him. He was Messiah, someone they expected......but, what happened and what still happens is they didn't want to change. That is why Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, if you continue in my words then you are my disciples indeed. Israel had known it was God who led them through the wilderness......they just didn't like the program. Same with Jesus.....they knew who He was....followed Him for a time.....and then decided they didn't like the program. It was rebellion....not a great epiphany of everything they knew as wrong. Many of us claim to believe in God.......yet, some of us feel it is admirable to tell our neighbor to "F off". We may believe there is a God.....but, not that He meant we really have to love our neighbor. If we do believe He meant to love our neighbor....some of us twist the meaning of love to hang on to our own ways. . . . . it is just a form of rebellion against God. It is a particularly ugly form of rebellion because we are dragging God down into the mud with us. The mercy of God is so beyond our comprehension......consider that He would allow the centurion who crucified Jesus to be saved.....the scriptures don't record a voice from heaven saying "Sorry to late." it is just slipped in there. Yet for some of us....there is never enough evidence to put our faith in such a God. We want to do it our way. These crowds and religious leaders were not slackers or stupid concerning spiritual matters, neither did they look in a mirror and have some epiphany......they were downright angry and rebellious. BTW...RumRunner still cared enough about these spiritual matters to discuss them at length....sometimes in a thought provoking way and often just a provoking way. :)

Comparing ourselves to Him is one thing.....comparing Him to us is another......you seem to have it backward. Jesus wept over Israel. One of the most poignant verses in the scriptures is "Jesus wept." He gave the Pharisees and the Sadducees every opportunity to be forgiven and set free from the curse of the law. Here is something maybe you don't know about the religious leaders of the time....they actually KNEW their stuff. They were not slackers in knowledge......the difference between them and TWI is that they were technically correct. If you take a look, Jesus said, do what they say and teach, just not what they live. They had legitimate authority and Jesus recognized it.......He condemned them for going beyond that and adding things. You say Jesus didn't lose any sleep over them? How about giving His life for them? Do you think there was some enlightened few around that Jesus died for? Even the Apostles were clueless.......read the gospels. Just about everyone turned on Jesus. It was not just the religious leaders. Those crowds praising Him as He rode into Jerusalem? They were the ones screaming for His blood. At the cross...3 Mary's and John. Not a big crowd. Did you ever consider why He said leave them alone? Is it because He didn't give a dang and was basically telling them "F you"? Remember, He had the authority to judge them then and there....the Apostles wanted fire to rain down from heaven. Why not if He didn't care? Maybe He was showing them mercy? Giving them time. You seem to have things pretty twisted and an esoteric way of interpreting the scriptures.......from this you appear to draw very very ugly conclusions about Jesus...this isn't going to make TWI any more legitimate. Now you are comparing Jesus' ministry to TWI because the mainstream recognizes them as heretical. They are. Scripture recognizes them as heretical. It is just that in TWI we couldn't really see what scripture was saying. We put an odd twist on it too.....and if we didn't really get the odd twist....we could always fake it. All this twisting and turning and dissing the Son of God almighty to justify as good.....telling someone to "F off"? Bringing Jesus down to the level of some man's momentary base behavior is not comparing ourselves to Him. It is rationalization at His expense. Ultimately Johniam...it is at your own expense. Well done.

Why not start with the one person who speaks with authority about heaven? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

You are actually comparing what Jesus said to the religious leaders who had been after Him during His entire ministry...... to cursing at a complete stranger in McDonalds because someone didn't like the answer he gave to a question about going to a cult fellowship? What is wrong with you? What about Jesus laying down His life and purchasing those very same religious leaders? Remember?...to the point of shedding blood for them? They were purchased with a price too......as is everyone who denies Him. I don't have anything against RD personally, he was nice to me, but comparing RD to Jesus is a bit of a stretch. Christian freedom and liberty does not include telling complete strangers to "F themselves" ..... if you don't believe me...look it up and instead of looking for verses to rationalize an already determined mindset....try letting the scriptures speak to you. Reading your posting is like falling through the Christian looking glass where wrong is right and right is wrong.

Your response all these years later.....the seeming admiration for this behavior.....coupled with the continued rationalization from scripture for this kind of thing....is actually more offensive and shocking than the initial event. We were in a pretty nasty cult back then. What is the excuse now? I could make a pretty good case from scripture (I won't) that to even have such an answer like "F off" in one's heart .....much less verbalize it in public in front of a child....is anti or behavior opposed to Christ ...... but, so is the cheer-leading some 30 years later. No surprise though, we were in an anti-Christ cult. Just because Jesus said...say what you mean, it doesn't follow that he meant whatever is in your heart and comes out of your mouth is good! Why take the words of the Prince of Peace and twist them to rationalize base behavior? You don't gain anything and it seems you will never comprehend what transforming events can occur when people who are truly persecuted respond in a Godly manner. Some of the most amazing and miraculous conversions which have brought God glory happen when the persecuted respond in a Christ like manner. You should read JESUS FREAKS.....by dc Talk....and learn how a true Jesus Freak responds. The guy in that Detroit McDonalds was spot on when he said to take the "act" on the road. He was the smart one...he declined an invitation to a cult fellowship......like many of us wish we had done.Him... I have grudging admiration for......

I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. And to stay on topic.....I don't support capital punishment......not with the Judicial system we have......prison stats in this country should be a real eye-opener. One mistake, and we have had plenty, is one mistake too many in my opinion. Keeping an innocent person in jail is bad enough....putting an innocent person to death is a big oops!

Everyone needs compassion A love that's never failing Let mercy fall on me Everyone needs forgiveness The kindness of a Savior The hope of nations <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-08YZF87OBQ" allowfullscreen="" width="560" frameborder="0" height="349"></iframe>

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Us vs. Them? I don't know about you....but, I was right there among those who were expecting certain behavior from my fellow cultists. You were lucky I guess..I didn't escaped so unscathed that I can now separate my behavior in TWI from that of everyone else. I was in a few classes....saw some people through......I guess I was among the selfish bastages. What were you doing in TWI....trying to get people to leave? We ALL did selfish things in some way or another.

Unless someone passes old and full of years....death usually is an ugly experience for those who love. . . . . . it hurts. Ask anyone who has lost a child. Death is an enemy, IMO. Even when someone has lived a full and happy life...to lose them can still sting. That is why Christians comfort each other with the hope of something better. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 Oddly enough, for me, an ex-twier.....one of the most poignant moments I had during this time was when the priest actually administered the "Last Rites". I stayed in the room and participated. I am not a Catholic....anymore ...and I don't believe that Last Rites gets anyone eternal life, but what struck me was the deeply human element to it all. The priest was a young guy....he radiated kindness and he really believed in what he was doing, but what I found more touching was the prayer on behalf of the person dying....asking God to forgive them. It was so tender.....seeking forgiveness from God on behalf of another. It struck me as such a beautiful human longing . The prayer moved me and I earnestly joined my voice and heart. I think asking God for forgiveness while we still can is so important. I think what is often very difficult is accepting that forgiveness from God. That is not always easy unless we understand what it cost or why we need it. I am of the mind that God paid a hefty price to offer us that forgiveness and it is not to be ignored while we live. See that....back to topic. :)

Sir G, Having just spent a bit of around the clock (literally) time with people who work in Hospice care....I have no complaints about their charter or their commitment and care. I thank God for them. The extra support was wonderful and the advocacy for pain relief really helpful. . . . . helpful for me, because I was fighting for, but actually WITH the person in unimaginable pain. He was in complete denial about what was happening and decided to embrace his pain from cancer. It happens more than people would think. That pain became his hope for life. Hospice is there for pain relief and support, but the person who is at the end of their life is in the driver seat as to how they die...not hospice. I am not sure why the era of their charter would even matter....or the art of dying....whatever that means to you. If someone is in denial ...they are not accepting of death. Period. I could not even get him to accept hospice coming in to help me....that was done with a wink and a nod with the Hospice intake Pastor......pretending the patient had agreed. We tricked him. We had to. I was the one who needed their help. In the end...I had to override his say with a health care proxy.....he was in agony and we medicated him enough to relieve much of his pain. By then he was to weak to speak. People don't always get to the stage of acceptance when dying...and I learned that these stages of acceptance are not so clear cut. . . . . denial and anger can intercept. It wasn't as if he wasn't told and told to prepare....sometimes with such bluntness it made me wince.....but, what he heard was completely different than what was said. That happens a great deal from what the Doc's and nurses told me. What I just went through was a heart wrenching horror show .... with a man who wanted to live and had a stranglehold on denial. Until his body totally betrayed him.....he fought to stay alive. If not for Hospice...I am not sure I would have made it through. Death is an ugly enemy. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.