geisha779

:offtopic: :offtopic: It could be that once they heard that YOU believe that JCING....they were simply not interested in hearing anything else you had to say. Hard to believe...I know. Proclaiming JCING can be a pretty big red flag to many Christians. And we did it with such great humility. Yeah right. I wish I had been smart enough to recognize a few red flags. Interesting that you add the term "glassy eyed robots" because that is what I imagine we looked like... programmed as we were to spit out that remedial PFAL class as if it were the "truth" as it has not been known since the 1st century. Why would any thinking person close their mind to that? Yep...pretty sure that is a fairly apt description of a witnessing wayfer....glassy eyed robot. Again...someone asks a fairly straight forward and honest question....and we again end up with Johniam's meandering. Back to topic.

Yes, but VP still gets the praise and glory....THAT is why there is such a statue. It is idolatrous that it even exists. It is made to glorify a man. What else do people think it is about? You are right...they delude themselves. The things VP did and taught.....didn't glorify God so it all does seem to fit.

God FORBID we slip up and give Jesus praise, but VP, well that is another story. Can't worship the Lord....He is just a man.....but, let's build a big old fountain and go worship VP.

I don't know the book by Sumner......but, I have recently read the excerpts from The Cult that Snapped. If you want to give someone in TWI one of these books you should......I just wouldn't get your hopes up that they will actually read them. I am not sure about cult books....sorry, but there are threads around here full of great suggestions. Maybe you could do a search? For some good theological books I recommend something by DA Carson, Tim Keller, Ben Witherington III ......or anyone in the Gospel Coalition. Pretty good guys. If you could find DA Carson's Exegetical Fallacies, I always thought this would be great for a Wayfer to read.....if they would just consider it ....it could be very helpful. http://thegospelcoalition.org/

Never mind!

The Comforter a comfort to me? Well..... yes. That humble and meek Spirit that can gently chasten me, enlighten me, guide my prayers......and so much more......yes, the Holy Spirit is an indescribable comfort. His presence passes explanation. But, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God and that God is eternal. He will not die. Nor do I believe Jesus Christ is dead, but rather that He lives. Because He lives, I also live. I am not sure how you understand death or why these topics always seem to end up there, but my understanding of death is that it is an enemy. I don't think that our original design included death, but rather sin brought death. Death is what Jesus Christ destroyed and redeemed us from. I think that life is eternal and it is found in Jesus Christ. I live that eternal life now...in Him. It began the moment I was truly born again of the Spirit. I am also unsure what you mean by the scriptures being the school master. I think the scriptures.....can bring that life to us....because from A-Z they tell us of the person who brings life as it was always meant to be. They tell us about ourselves, about sin, about God, and about what real love is.....they themselves are alive because they give the words of life. This is what I believe and it may seem difficult for some ex-way to accept....and I really get that...it may seem too reminiscent of what VP taught. After all, TWI was a counterfeit of a genuine faith. He, meaning God, abides with me now cman....makes His home with me now and forever....my waiting is over. I have enjoyed chatting...thanks!!

Not quite sure what you mean...but, if you are putting forth the idea that all are saved and that all have the spirit....that is a definite set of beliefs......and you are promoting a doctrine whether you realize it or not. I am also not sure what you mean by " throwing verses from a book", but studying the scriptures and the words of Jesus is not a mindless task. The mind is very engaged unless one is ensnared in a mind numbing cult. And actually, if one puts their faith in the Lord Jesus and He is the Lord of their life....then His words are really the first and last word on the subject. I don't believe the scriptures just because......I have taken the time to examine them and how they came to be and I have a high confidence in them. They have borne out in my life. I don't really have to question Jesus' intent....it is clearly articulated....He made distinct claims and had a distinct purpose....I can either believe Him or not. I can trust Him or not. I had better use my mind as well as my heart when deciding what to believe or I could end up right back in TWI. :)

cman, it is God's desire that we don't sin......do we? It was not God's will for Israel to have a king, but He gave them one. It was God's will that Israel be let go in Egypt, yet He hardened a heart so they were not immediately released. Was it God's will that Adam and Eve eat from the tree that they did? He distinctly said He didn't want that. For someone who rejects God....is heaven going to be heaven? Is God going to force it on them? I understand the Universalist position and I am sympathetic....and if there were just a few verses of scripture in the bible...no problem. But things like the verse about God wanting all men to be saved have to be understood in light of the whole. Jesus clearly told us that many would perish. He even said some who called Him Lord Lord would be denied. The epistle of John speaks of the spirit of anti-Christ in relation to a persons confession of faith.....Jesus spoke of hell at great length. Taking a couple of verses from scripture and making a doctrine is no way to understand how God's entire counsel is intended... in my opinion. That is me. I will say I have wrestled with this very topic, but for me, there is a greater understanding to be had in the entire wisdom of God's word....a reason we cannot please God without faith. There is incredible value in the hefty price of our redemption....in the cross.....and it is worthy of our faith. It requires it. I will leave it at that ... I am not going to try and convince you of anything. :)

I was quoting Jesus and then John. It was Jesus who said .......Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. When asked directly Jesus also said...... "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." That is not earning one's salvation or works for salvation....this is what is required to be saved......faith. Looking at a little more closely we see that it is God who gives us the faith to believe.... that faith comes from hearing.....but yeah....one must believe in Him to receive anything. It is what the scriptures tell us. Paul laid it out in pretty good detail. If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. And yes, I am with you....I don't believe I move the Spirit...but rather it is as He the Spirit wills. :)

What Jesus said as recorded in the gospel of John is this:....Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. There is a caveat to receiving the Spirit.....at least according to Jesus.....that is to believe in Him. I don't see where the Christian scriptures reveal all having a sleeping or dormant Spirit. If you are using a source other than the bible or you have another way of looking at the scriptures would you consider articulating? If one believes the infinite picture is Christ centered, as I believe the bible reveals.....He is before all things, and in him all things hold together....then one would have to believe in Him before they see or receive anything...no? As for Jesus being the Christ.....the messiah, the anointed one.....the redeemer.....John said this; Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. I do believe Jesus is the eternal Son of God cman......but the scriptures tell us this about what He did and became..... So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I really don't want to put words in your mouth that are not there but when you say that "Christ has been around a long time. Before the birth of Jesus. So I don't know and really can't say for sure that Jesus was the first Comforter." To my ears it sounds like you are implying that Jesus is not the one and only Messiah or anointed one....the Christ. Am I reading this wrong? If you look at Jesus' loving and comforting word to His beloved disciples.....He is telling them He won't leave them orphaned. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. He won't be there in bodily form, the world won't see Him anymore but they will see Him? We have Him in a better form....I guess I would have to start writing about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...being One God to continue on.....I try to avoid that topic here. But, I do believe Jesus is speaking of another comforter, other than Himself in bodily form. Hope that made sense!

I am so very happy for you both! Dot...you are radiant! You both deserve every happiness. Such lovely news. I know it has been a long road.....may the rest of your journey be filled with only good. It is just so wonderful....congratulations.

A knowledge of physics or cosmology was also apparently frowned upon if LCM's statement about the earth being the center of the universe went unchallenged. .I don't think there actually is a static center to our expanding universe. But, isn't that statement by LCM incredibly telling? Looking back....any talk of "seed boys" seems outrageous to me. Then again....if VP or LCM were going to have the inside track on anything.....it would probably be the function of evil. They were masters in this regard.

Indescribable, uncontainable, You placed the stars in the sky and You know them by name. You are amazing God All powerful, untamable, Awestruck we fall to our knees as we humbly proclaim You are amazing God Love that song.

Nope. He was an abusive alcoholic father figure and we all learned some serious codependency skills. It was all so messed up.

This seems a really great way to me. Lovely! I would just add that when speaking to someone in TWI .... remember that they don't have healthy boundaries or healthy relationships in their lives......those things are among the first to go... if they ever had them at all. Be careful not to get sucked back into that world of confusion. I don't think trying to relate or engage them in their reality is really going to help. Like Nandon said, just be nice, honest, and logical if conversation does ever arise.

The whole PFAL class was building towards a "sign". Tongues. Despite what he said....VP was all about signs and proof.....at least that is my opinion. Heaven bound and all that.....proof in the senses realm.... Personally, I think it gave us a false assurance and made examining ourselves to see if we were in the faith kind of moot.

Yes.... _____________________ He was a Doctor in the same slipshod and shady manner that he was a Minister. As Simon has mentioned, he completed his course work and earned his degree according to the standards set forth by Pikes Peak....that makes it a doctorate. What that doctorate means is the gray area. Technically, it wasn't a phony degree. Technically, he was Doctor VP. Technically, those who still refer to this long dead man as DR. are not in error.....perhaps they just haven't thought it through, don't care, or have decided it is legitimate enough for them to still use the title when mentioning him. Who knows what people are thinking...unless they tell you. :) I am assuming, because VP himself ordained others....that he had retained his title as a Reverend. Please correct me if I am wrong on this. I don't remember anyone ever calling him Rev VP. except in the memoirs. At some point and time....he did qualify to be ordained...at least according to standards set forth by his denomination. Breaking it down we can now see that his title as a minister was about as meaningful as his doctorate. To be fair....I don't know what was running through his heart and mind at the time he was ordained, but later in life....his actions boldly declared his intent and it was not in line with what the scriptures or his denomination reveal a minister should be. He may not have been a brilliant academic, but he was not a stupid man. He was smart enough to know how to assume as much authority as possible. This includes his doctorate, his title as minster....and he was able to convince most of us that he had direct authority given to him by God almighty. The man managed to axe Christ from Christianity for the most part.....no easy feat there. At least he convinced most of us...... He was very good at what he did.....it ensnared many of us for years......but, despite johniam's protestations.....while he was good at what he did......what he did was very very bad. Evil can be insidious......VP's particular brand of evil was no exception.

Chockfull, thanks so much for starting that Pikes Peak thread.....very helpful info! Pikes Peak doesn't sound like a real academic grind. VP's (yes, no, maybe) PhD, or ThD?is kind of a muddy area. It was surely not regionally or nationally recognized, but unless I know what was required by the program I am just guessing about it....it all sounds pretty shady to me. I would LOVE to see his correspondence work....just for the heck of it. If his degree was in homiletics and not theology.....that makes it more ironic because he actually was a master at preaching. VP was a very skilled preacher. He kept all of us enthralled and most of us were kids who had been turned off by church! He knew exactly what he was doing. Of course, what he preached is another topic.....but his delivery was excellent. Too strange. Thanks Simon for all that info, really interesting......Pikes Peak probably did have the right to confer a degree....VP probably could technically use his title(at least in Colorado)....but, morally use it? Well, not so much......I think the question is....what was it really worth? VP got some mileage out of it, but I like the cereal box tops analogy.

Not all degrees from non-accredited institutions are bogus are they? Some are well recognized within specific fields. Some states allow licensing for non-accredited degree holders in certain areas. Some are even prestigious degrees. It all depends on where they come from, the program, and the degree. No? Or do I have this confused. I don't think I do. Some Christian schools may opt out of or be denied accreditation for doctrinal reasons. A few that have been accredited in the last few years, have been well respected institutions within their field without accreditation. There are more non accredited "degree mills" than not, but lack of accreditation does not automatically make a school a degree mill does it? It is also a matter of regional, national, and international recognition. Do the schools where VP "bought" his degree even exist anymore? I could find very little non TWI related information. The information that I did find simply stated that Pikes Peak was a diploma mill. Interestingly, it churned out more than one nut job. VP was in some illustrious company. Billy James Hargis? Is the info about the school out there somewhere? I would be curious to see it and it would probably good for a few of us to actually understand what it means to buy a degree as opposed to earning it. It speaks to character. It speaks to commitment. If these were lacking in VP's approach to the bible even then.....it may be more difficult to deny the importance of what his assumed title really means. However, he was a trained theologian wasn't he? No? Are his other degrees legit? He did have some credentials. He was deemed qualified in some ways by some accredited institutions. To me, THAT is the irony.....because he was not qualified according to the very faith and book he claimed for himself....and that bothers me far more than his title or lack of legitimate title. That causes me to ponder people's continual commitment to the man and his theology far more than what they call him or if he was a genuine PhD holder. It is more difficult to escape the reality of our blind devotion to a man instead of God when his qualifications are held up to the light of scripture. That is when we make the choice who to follow or believe.....in my opinion.

I have to ask.... Where did I imply, intimate, or say in any way that you....Jerry Barrax is not being humble enough? What part of I, me, mine don't you understand? What part of "this is my opinion no one has to agree" eludes you? Your pride is hurt because I mentioned the contradiction in Acts is easily resolvable. Pure and simple ego. That is what this is about. You have already mentioned how those you classify as "fundamentalists" bother you. They bother you because they look at the scriptures differently than you. Admit it. Here, now I WILL actually say it because now I do actually believe it.....and you did ask me how letting the bible read us helps to resolve conflicts like those in Acts....if you had taken a moment to examine your approach to Acts, you could have easily resolved this for yourself . Instead, what is it you said? "My studied opinion is that the Bible does indeed contradict itself. " "Did they hear it or did they not? " .......It depends on whether you believe Luke's second hand account of the event (Acts 9:7) or Paul's firsthand recounting of it (22:7 - 9) .......Acknowledging that what Luke wrote in Acts chapter 9 contradicts what he wrote in chapter 22 has nothing to do with whether or not God is good and merciful. Well, is it an either or issue? No. That is how you approach it. Does it depend on which account you believe? No. But, that is your flawed conclusion based on your approach. Do you have to choose between the two accounts? No. Must we acknowledge they conflict? Hell no.....It is a simple translation issue. Easily resolved. Your approach stunted your ability to resolve this for yourself, but.that must have been your studied opinion. It couldn't possibly be your limited understanding...it just HAS to mean the accounts in Acts conflict. Hmm, turns out there is something to what I said......how we approach scripture does matter. Who knew! Just about any Christian who reads the bible? Maybe? BTW.....This can definitely be termed a huff.

These things certainly don't stop you from judging me do they? Whose claws actually come out when they are disagreed with? I thought I was rather kind myself, hoping to share something from my own personal relationship with the creator. Maybe that is reserved only for those who believe the bible "imperfect truth" and agree with you? Maybe you could just label me a "fundamentalist" now and get it over with. You know, similar to the way we used carnal Christian in TWI. Empties floating by. People we don't agree with....we can label and dismiss. Is fundamentalist the new word for those who think differently....the worst you can come up with? What? I should have given my academic resume instead. If I disagree....and offer a varying point I am judgmental? On what planet? Maybe in the world of TWI....but, not where I dwell. What Christian hasn't heard that the bible reads us? That is hardly not some "new light". I DIDN'T MAKE IT UP!! What Christian doesn't know that reasoning the scriptures involves examination of their own thought process, approach, and mindset? Hardly shocking revelations. Hardly shocking in any discipline. I think my point was....these ARE reasonable approaches....or is a reasonable approach what you determine it to be? I can't offer my opinion? I am sorry to upset you, but the verses in Acts appear in only a few translations of the bible because it is easily resolved. You appear to still have an issue with it. I was thinking of myself and my own experience when I posted as I did.....hoping to share something from my own life with TZ..... It didn't cross my mind you were arrogant when I was posting....It has now. People do read things just the way they want to and bring their own preconceived ideas to things....you have just solidified that for me. Enjoy your discussion...I don't need this... I am CRAZY to continue to subject myself to it if I don't have to. It is still so much like TWI....same tactics....same tunnel vision....same pride....same affront to Christianity. Some have just swung to another extreme. That IS my judgment. Make sure and chase off the next poster who disagrees and then there can be two of you to chat!

TZ, how is claiming the bible is full of unresolvable contradictions any less arrogant than claiming it has no contradictions? It is still placing our understanding above all else. No? Is it me, or doesn't it still seem like an extreme conclusion? Possibly even one that avoids another conclusion? Maybe the bible actually reads us...and exposes a great deal about us. Maybe it exposes us in the way we approach it...how we deal with contradictions and what conclusions we draw from it. Assuming I know everything about God, life, and spirituality...I can easily declare something an impossible contradiction. No problem, and in order to resolve something I don't understand...I can always project something on to God. Then again, I actually could examine myself, my approach, and my understanding. That might reveal something useful to me. No? Assume for a moment it is God's word....written by men and inspired by God. It is imperfect language that is going to cause issues and a million different ways to interpret what is said. Yikes! It is impossible right? What I take from it is wholly dependent on the standards I use to judge it. Basically, I am defining what is true....I become omniscient. Is there another way could we can come at such a book that would not lead to confusion and frustration? Is there another result we can get from the bible, other than trying to prove something? Scripture tells us how to approach it. It reveals ourselves in it. It isn't an intellectual exercise, but it can require some serious self-examination to achieve the desired result...assuming a relationship built on trust and certainty with an transcendent God is the quest. There is a way we can approach the bible to get the right result. With a humble heart. Declaring it full of contradictions based on my limited knowledge doesn't seem like a humble approach to me....The result should not be how many were crucified....or how many denials either....it should be transformation. Sure, if people are not seeking out God in scripture, but rather trying to prove something or bolster their preconceived ideas....it can be a mass of contradiction. Kind of like using the bible to prove it is full of contradictions. That might be the wrong approach and might result in a futile exercise. It can even lead to great swelling and prideful assumptions about God. Look at TWI or CES. It can be more difficult to let it read us...but IMO far more satisfying, helpful and transforming. Unless we don't want that and just want to be proved right. The irony of STILL using the bible for this does not escape me. As an aside, Paul and what his companions heard/understood in Acts, is one of the most easily resolved conflicts in scripture. It doesn't even show up in more than a few bible translations, but, it is in King James I am sure. It is a translation issue. In grand scheme of things does it matter? It matters, if one is using a particular and limited standard by which to judge and has decided this is thee ultimate standard. It is within these arbitrary limitations that those seeming contradictions can become unresolvable. My opinion...no one has to agree.

The assertion that God intentionally contradicts Himself and the bible having contradictory statements are two different things. I could not agree more. There are some wonderful bible scholars who address apparent contradictions in scripture....RC Sproul has a great little book and if I can remember the title I will post it. Most contradictions are easily resolved, but it does take a little thinking. By all means....back to the topic at hand. I am off on vacation. I have to wonder though....having had conversation so regulated in TWI, why some are still so anxious about the direction a conversation takes.

Steve, I didn't say that when you suggest other people pray before reading the bible that it turns into an appeal for secret knowledge. That never crossed my mind. I said, believing God purposely contradicts Himself so that the Holy Spirit can unravel God speaking against His own word.... extra-dimensional truth...is not the same thing as beginning with a humble recognition of an omnipotent and perfect God and is a form of secret knowledge. It is, you are speaking of a hidden meaning. And yes Steve, we are to share a common faith. We may differ on dunking vs sprinkling or when to stand, sit and kneel, but when it comes to who God is and how He is, we should definitely agree. So, despite your sarcasm....I am reaching out to you. I recognize and validate that you believe God is teaching you through how you are fearfully and wonderfully made. That is great. It is when you project your understanding onto God and it stands in opposition to Him that I take issue. This is very similar to the conversation you and I had about Jesus blinding you and leading you into a pit. There are certain things we can know about God. Does how you articulate and describe God glorify Him? Is it remotely scriptural or is it an extra-biblical revelation you believe God has given you through the Holy Spirit by way of how you are made? Unless of course, the Holy Spirit , who is God, is contradicting Himself. How does God describe Himself in scripture? What does He say about Himself? Not what we speculate about Him because we have questions or confusion about things that seem paradoxical, but what does He tell us about Himself? Can you reconcile that to a God who contradicts Himself because you believe He can? Can you do that without what you are calling the work of the Holy Spirit? Without this extra-dimensional truth that you speak of.... I am sincere, I really want to know. ______________________________________ Scripture tells us that He is righteous or right. that He is holy, holy, holy. He is love....He is only good and that He is goodness, not that He conforms to it.....He has perfect knowledge of all things.....He works all things after the counsel of His own will. It is a perfect will. God is faithful, not only to us, He is faithful period. That means He is faithful to Himself. He foreknows, He is not only omnipotent, but also omnipresent, and I already mentioned.....omniscient. God is merciful, God is just, He is infinite, He is wise, He is longsuffering, and He is forgiving. He is self-existing....He is self-sufficient(He needs nothing)He is satisfied in His own perfection. He sustains all things. He doesn't lie. He is spirit. He is transcendent, He is gracious, He is worthy, He is light and in Him is no darkness, no variableness or shadow of turning. He is immutable. He is eternal, He is impartial, He is sovereign, He is truth, life, and He is outside of His creation which is an ever expanding universe that He spoke into being. He is near. He brings peace, not confusion. He is joyful, He gives us joy. He is glorified, He has wrath against unrighteousness..... He is incomprehensible.....all powerful....and complete. He is patient, He is able. He is a jealous God, He gives life, He is personal. He condescends. His ways are not our ways. He is incomparable, He is sovereign, He is the judge, the creator, Father, and He is supreme. He is perfect. None of those things describe a God who contradicts Himself, He is truth and He is right, and there would never be a need for Him to speak against His own word. That isn't who God is. Hoped that made sense and let you know where I am coming from. Take Care. Edited to edit.

God's perfection seems pretty elusive. He doesn't need to contradict Himself...He works all things together for good ...He works all things according to the counsel of his will. Not ours. If we miss God's perfection....His character, His attributes....it can be really tempting to assign Him some. I have done it. God will do a great many things...extend mercy, condescend....reach out....he forgives over and over again....but there are things He will not violate. It is not even that He won't do them....it would never even be a question. God doesn't need to say one thing and then speak against it and have the Holy Spirit straighten it out. That is a form of secret knowledge. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth....but not because God has contradicted Himself. God is perfect. We are not. All optic biology aside...isn't how we perceive God and approach scripture really a matter of the heart? An eye can see everything but itself. Just to add: We don't limit God to any one point of view....God is omnipotent and not limited by us....He knows all things. He has the advantage over us. What I think is important to remember is that He has the right point of view. God is also righteous. He is able to communicate it without speaking against His own word. Edit again! Optic not ocular...it was 2 in the morning.