geisha779

That doesn't really exemplify sincere Christian love now does it? Abhor evil and cling to good. It is not even close. Christians have a radical relationship with good and with evil, it is not a tepid one....it is extreme. The irony is sad though..... just consider all the people they tossed out like the days garbage for the slightest infraction. . . . . yet, they are willing to overlook evil for their own gain. God isn't fooled.....nor is He blind, deaf or dumb.

They are good and sound rambling thoughts and this is helpful information in taking the initial step of questioning TWI theology. Thanks! TWI is a real hodgepodge of theology and spiritualism......even the relevant theology is so polluted that not much is worth keeping IMO. Although VP stole others ideas....he really didn't steal from many sound sources. I have often wondered what attracted VP to Bullinger and the other sources he stole material from? Trying to follow the curving path that leads to these sources is time consuming and trying to discern their theology is an exercise in futility. Mix in a real distrust of Christians in general and an arrogance towards real bible teachers and it is like a bottomless pit we can't dig ourselves out from.....it just keeps spiraling out and is a mess. Someone on here did a great deal of the leg work .... the Snapping thread has some good information. I think it is a real eye opener. I am ever thankful to the poster who contributed that information. We support things we believe in....that includes ministries. TWI is all about VP and his strange theology. The problem is....many of us were young, ignorant of theology and caught up in the whole thing when we were still developing and it is really difficult to see through it all. It isn't a Christian group.... it is a heretical cult. It isn't your family or God's special household.....it is an anti-Christian group which at one time had Christians who got caught up for a time. The off shoots are not a new and better version of the same.....you can't take a rotten foundation and build on it without it eventually falling apart. Sadly, there is a remnant of diehards willing to follow VP straight to hell. Not much we can do about that......but for those who want to be Christians, there are good sound bible teachers and good churches willing to embrace us. It can be difficult to realize how wrong we were and how totally caught up we were, but it beats staying in that nightmare.

The context IS humility(well stated WW) we are given the greatest example of humility in Jesus Christ and exhorted to have the same mind. We are also assured that it is GOD at work after we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling......which is simply another way of saying "take this very seriously". God is primary, it is HIS work and HIS will. Paul is speaking to a fairly together Church in comparison to some of the others and he isn't speaking of the salvation that has already been accomplished and is by grace....it is a fuller participation in God's will, grace, and sanctification. Something mature Christians would understand. He reminded them they had obeyed in the past not only when he was around but while he was absent. They understood what he was saying. None of what Paul wrote implies we should be afraid or working TOWARDS our own salvation, rather it is a loving and tender exhortation to continue growing. It is really comforting. Much of the context is also unity because not only are Christians to participate more fully in God's plan, but we are to do it together.

Well, he was wrong. But, just because he perverted the meaning of grace that doesn't mean that grace doesn't abound. Does it? Did VP have that kind of authority? The sin or twisting of scripture in VP's life is his responsibility before God. He denied the Lord but, that doesn't have to translate into my denying the Lord. VP's rendition of faith has very little bearing on my life unless I allow it to......and I really believe the answers to the questions you pose can be found right there in the scriptures. It lays out a genuine and a counterfeit....I imagine you can guess where I land in that debate. VP was a fraud.....God isn't. God isn't mocked and He isn't fooled. My thoughts anyway...a perversion of biblical truths doesn't negate the truth it negates the one telling the lies.

I have worked as an organizer for more than one hoarder......they are the bread and butter of the business. They are great because you always have work, but frustrating because you never get anything accomplished, or if you do get a room done, the next month it is in worse shape. I finally educated myself a bit about hoarding and the approach to take with someone who has compulsive behavior. Hoarding is a mental disorder and it can really affect the people who have to be around a hoarder. You just have to prepare yourself to do the same thing over and over.....or be prepared to stand around all day while they try to gather their thoughts. I worked for a lady who had 22 vacuum cleaners and wood floors with no rugs......go figure. When I pointed this out and suggested we try and pare down the vacuums (many were broken) she had a full blown melt down. A tip, and it is something I did, probably not something you would be tempted to do......but, when they left I would throw trash away and then hide the trash in the bins. Baaaaad, bad, bad, bad idea. They know every single piece of lint and broken plastic they own and will swear it is the most important piece they have. They know what it once went to......how it is useful.....and claim they will need it one day. It doesn't matter that it has been under the couch for the past 16 years. Just be thankful there is no dump they can go to....we would finally get a small load together for the dump and without fail, they would come back from the dump with more than they left with. I am not joking. We finally had to hire a skip. That also was pointless.... it went in one day and was back in the house the next. It is horribly frustrating to try and help a hoarder get organized.......but it really is a compulsive disease and for a neat freak like me it is one that is difficult to understand. It seems selfish, but it has a whole other pathology. I still get offers of work from hoarders but I can't do it anymore. Great money....I bought my kid a used car from one week of work......but it takes too great a toll on me. I end up really disliking my clients and dreading having to be around them. I retired from the biz. :)

Really, really nice post.....I think the way we come to live that new nature is by the decisions we make. Just like in any relationship, love and commitment help us to make the right decisions and of course, we love Him because He first loved us. His love was displayed for us in what seems an almost paradoxical way, but it is love with justice met and unfathomable mercy extended. On the cross, we can see the serious meaning of sin by how the price was paid. I suppose Jesus could have died by machine gun....but, He didn't. That is not how God reached out to us.....it was crucifixion. Crucifixion was an agonizingly painful and humiliating way to die. For those interested in words.....it was excruciating. Sin truly separates us from God. Jesus never sinned. Yet, Jesus, a perfect and blameless sacrifice took on the sins of the world and paid the price for sin.....once and for all. God's final word on the matter and the way He made for us to reconciled to Him. Justice was met while amazing love was being extended through suffering. The cross is beautiful in its revelation of grace, mercy and love. It is paradoxical that such suffering could reveal God's love and power. It is paradoxical that evil was met with good. The fear of God is in the recognition of God... I think we all agreed on that. How we recognize God is where some of us differed. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18 Once we come to the cross and see the commitment and love of Jesus and truly accept the way He made......it is the beginning of a relationship. A part of the reason I strongly reject the notion that we can truly come up against the cross and accept the way made for us and then just wander off for most of our life, is that commitment and love relationship that begins at the cross. The transformation which begins in the realization of God's power, mercy and love and His great commitment to us.... is a new heart. It is His work....all of it. It is all grace and mercy. God is absolutely faithful even when we are not and He is absolutely able to keep us and create in us a new heart. The sacrifice is enough. We don't need to be blinded after coming to the cross...... it opens our eyes to God's love and power. We certainly don't need to be blinded and fall under judgement. The point is.....the price is paid and God's justice is satisfied. Everything we need is already done for us. It is about faith and trust. Do we really see what was accomplished, do we really understand what was done? Do we accept it and confess and commit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ? Our confidence before God can't rely on our abilities, but faith in Jesus. That is not say there isn't going to be challenges. We are to take up our own cross and follow Him. One of the ways we know we are in relationship with Him is obedience, but that obedience is borne out of love. It can be difficult and sometimes painful to follow the Lord. Not only is there persecution, although not really so much here, but our two natures war with each other. We are often in battle with self. Jesus didn't say it would be easy. Grace, is extended for those times when we are in a struggle and we really can ask God for the grace we need to get through them. He understands what it means to be tempted, He is not without compassion, and He is not without mercy. He does test and challenge our faith. I have been confronted with a faith that was lacking more than once but, each time I am faced with that I am extended forgiveness and grace to grow in faith. Amazing God. One of the icky realizations I had to come to while examining my time in TWI was that I had never fully come to the cross and understood it at all. I was too busy yakking about machine guns and flaunting my Holy Spirit dove. There is nothing wrong with the Holy Spirit dove unless it is replacing the cross. For me it did. Many of us argued over words and the meaning of words and focused on the little things while missing the bigger things. The scriptures tell us that false teachers prey on people burdened by sin....unstable souls.....they catch people who are searching or new in their faith. They usually target younger people and those with no church to watch out for them. For me, it was most of the above. Thankfully it is not irreversible and God is still reaching out with love and forgiveness through the cross of Christ and His resurrection from the dead. It does matter how He died, why He suffered, and who He is. It is good to go back to the very basics and really look at what we believe. Jesus is enough, God's sacrifice is enough, and God is faithful even when we are not....He won't let us wander too far. :)

Steve, One last time..... as this is probably as frustrating for you as it is for me in continually trying to bring this conversation somewhere close to a Christ centered perspective. I give up. I gather WW is simply trying to keep it on topic without the looming specter of VP and trying to jettison our discussion from our common ground. I appreciate that as I moved well beyond VP's definition for anything and even while in TWI I knew JAL was a sadistic ego maniac. So, when discussing biblical concepts, tenets, or doctrine these men and groups have no influence in my perceptions. I seek a Christ centered theology as Christianity is a Christ centered faith. Our faith is centered around the person of Jesus Christ, His work, and everything in scripture points us to HIM. That includes not trusting our own hearts. Please consider that for a minute. However, that goes far beyond what we can discuss. I get the impression from your last post and the caveat to "your readers" about your use of language that you have something to say and just want to be heard. I am not trying to discourage you, but I would like to encourage you to consider, yet again, how Jesus fits into you falling under a curse which is related specifically to Jeremiah's speaking of Israel's impending judgement.. And now I see it is all of us who were under this curse to some degree or another. What role does the cross of Christ play in your scenario? I do understand that you believe you are teaching something that stems from direct revelation from the Almighty. I sympathize with you. I have to ask though......where exactly were you on the fear of God scale when you received this revelation? Were you fearing God perfectly? According to your sharing... the ONLY antidote to our deceitful hearts is the fear of the Lord.......so, if you didn't have that just where it should be when you heard from God.......how can you trust it was God and not your deceitful heart? You are working pretty hard at making this revelation fit into the word of God......and in the process you appear to be leaving out huge pieces of relevant theology. Christ is absolutely missing from what you are telling us, it is a word and works based understanding that leaves no room for Him. Another thing I am curious about....and if it is too personal please forgive me......but, you mentioned that you were saved at age seven.....and from the dates you gave me I think you are now hovering around age 60? You cited age twenty as a time in your life when you again were seeking, so from 20-60 ....forty years you have been wandering? Just like Israel! I am not going to ask you where the Lord was the whole time, but I would like to know where your faith was. That saving faith which binds us to the Lord? My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me Instead of this elaborate theological puzzle in which you have been placed under a curse, an explanation which seems to satisfy you in answering the questions relating to the course of your life. And instead of the resulting solution which appears to be works which will now save you.......fear of the Lord will transform your heart....something you do for yourself.....and your perfect obedience will cast out fear. You know.....there is a far more simple explanation. You have yet to come to a saving faith. Please, before your pride is pricked and ego bruised....remember they have no place before the Lord. There is no shame in examining if we are in the faith. Looking at what we believe and truly considering whom we have placed our faith in. You do have an answer for the why's to the course of your life, but does it glorify God? Does it consider the cross? Is it a Christ centered answer or is it a you centered answer? It is possible to ever learn and never come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus Christ.

Steve, I have to admit you have totally lost me now. God doesn't change......but can we consider, at the least, some event in the history of mankind.....that changed how we now relate to God? Did something so amazing and phenomenal happen that made a way for us to be irrevocably reconciled to God? If so, maybe we should factor that into our theology when reading of Israel's impending judgement in Jeremiah rather than trying to apply that judgement to our life today. You keep emphasizing that ALL of the evil in TWI and the splinter groups stems from a lack of the fear of God....but we can't define it? Is there any other theology that we might consider when looking at these groups that will help us unravel what we got caught up in and might offer some deliverance? Would it surprise you if VP knew that God is the ultimate judge? That he knew the truth and turned away? That he just didn't care? He did come out of a church with some pretty sound theology and at one time he had to know the truth. I would bet he even recognized God's authority in all matters. False teachers rise up in the church. They know the truth.....they reject it and leave the church while pulling others away from it. Vp was correct when he said it is all grace, but he took God's grace and perverted it by turning it into license to sin. God's grace is a way to grow in godliness and holiness. VP's perverting of what grace is doesn't mean that it is not all grace. People still shake their fists at God.....knowingly have stubborn and unrepentant hearts, just like in Jeremiah's time. Judgement is reserved or stored up, but there will be judgement. Israel knew God.....they were afraid of Him. Did that ever stop them from rebelling? Shaking in their sandals one minute and shaking their fists the next. They knew His power and authority....they saw it. God delivered them time and time and time and time again. He displayed His might and they understood His holiness, yet they were constantly falling under His judgement for rebelling against Him. Israel needed and awaited someone to save them......they were waiting for the whole world to be set back in order. They couldn't keep the law that they asked for for more than 5 minutes. Neither can you. They awaited the Messiah. What else about TWI beside a lack of fear, that we can't define, might have been the cause of evil? Is there anything else VP did....... outside of turning grace into a license to sin ....... and not caring about God's judgement...... that may have caused blindness? Outside of curses and judgement I mean. Where was Jesus Christ? Why did VP replace Jesus Christ with the written word? Where was his Lordship and why did VP need to redefine who Jesus Christ is and is not? Why did VP have to get rid of the cross? Why did he encourage disdain for the cross, the church, and encourage disdain for Jesus Christ? I won't even begin to ask about what we did with our understanding of the Holy Spirit, beside the fact that we turned Him into a freak show.....denying the Lord Jesus Christ is enough to start with. Without that reciprocal love relationship......without the Lordship of Jesus Christ, who is God......and is the impediment to the desire to sin..... we were left with the outworking of the flesh and its natural tendencies. No big surprise there. The evil of TWI comes from a outright blatant and bold rebellious denial of Jesus Christ, denial of His Lordship and a denial of the cross. VP denied the Lord who bought him and led us to do the same in arrogance and thankfully some of us did it in ignorance. How does any of that fit in with Jeremiah and Israel's impending judgement? We had Jesus and we rejected Him by redefining Him and making Him absent so of course sin and evil reigned......adultery, fornication, covetousness, impurity, passions, evil desires......idolatry. Jesus Christ appears to still be missing from your theology. You are not called to Israel's judgement.......we are in for a worse one if we deny His Lordship and His work on the cross. I am wondering how He fits into your understanding of the fear of God. How does your faith in Him translate into falling under a curse? Did He not die in your place and take the punishment due to you so that you can be reconciled to God? If so, was that not enough or did you have to fall under a curse to come to faith? You have totally lost me.

Jerry, I still sometimes look at things the way you described, perhaps not Christmas Carol, or It's A Wonderful Life, but I get it. The older movie Scrooge frightened me as a kid and I have never seen It's A Wonderful Life all the way through....it is not a part of our traditions. Seems to me, one could take away the message....let your dreams die and just settle. Didn't Jimmy Stewart's character want a different life? I am not too vested, but I see how you draw your conclusions. Maybe ..... don't take it too seriously? Me, I love Edward Cullen(the undead) and I have watched Harry Potter grow up.....to me it is entertainment. My son, a lovely Christian and faithful servant, always has a way of putting things in perspective for me.......he quoted on his FB page " There's a war on Christmas. There's also wars in Africa that children are forced into...but, yours sounds pretty serious." Anyway, Merry Christmas to you and your family..... Excathedra, I am so sorry that you are down and troubled. I am sending prayers, love and goodwill your way. May 2012 be the year of your dreams and the beginning of a beautiful trend that takes you through the rest of your days. Merry Christmas.

Steve, The version I quoted, and I don't remember, but I think it is the NIV....reads a bit differently yet still works for our discussion. Fear has torment because it is in relation to punishment. Right before John speaks of perfect love casting out fear, he actually tells us that God is love. He tells us how God displayed His love for us. He sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for sin. Jesus took the punishment due us. God does require perfect obedience, He required a perfect sacrifice.....but not because God is an ego maniac, or maniacal as some people like to intimate or come right out and say. It is because God is holy, holy, holy....perfectly righteous and just. God doesn't abide sin. You wrote... "So we can read 4:18 as " There is no fear in keeping God's commandments: but perfectly keeping God's commandments casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in keeping God's commandments." I understand just fine how you come to that.... but tell me, who it is that has ever perfectly obeyed God's commandments? How has God, who is love, shown us His love? Who is it that has lived a perfect and sinless life? Not me, and I never will. I shoot for sinning less and less but there are days I barely make it to the breakfast table without sinning. I am not tormented and I am not afraid. That is not what motivates me to try and obey God. My faith HAS to be in Jesus Christ. I obey, when I do, out of His love for me. You described exactly what Jesus did....lived in perfect obedience to God. Are you tracking with me? Do you really think that is how you are going to be able to live? Do you believe that you will be made perfect in keeping God's commandments? If so, you don't need a savior to live and die in your stead. Confidence in God doesn't stem from our obedience or our ability. If it does, we have missed the mark, we have missed the cross and we don't have faith in Jesus Christ or the least understanding of the righteousness of God. Our works are not what should give us peace....there is only one source for peace. It isn't us. God is the author of love in these verses, the origin of love in these verses and it is a perfect and complete love. If we don't know God's love... have not been made perfect in it....(and we know how He loves us).....we know our response is to be faith.....then we will have fear of punishment. But, we are STILL going to have fear if we rely on our ability to perfectly obey Him. I understand what you wrote.....I understand how you came to it.....I don't have a problem with the language....and thanks, but I have already earned my degree so I think I can keep up. My issue is that you replaced Jesus Christ with our ability to perfectly obey God as a means of being made perfect in love. I also think you might be confusing sanctification with obedience. Our ability, our works and our faith can be offensive before God if we think that is the way to God or to be perfected. The real irony is that obedience to God...is for our benefit....not His.

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death." The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear." But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire. .......................................................................................... What is it we are afraid of with God? What do we have to fear? That God is an all powerful and consuming fire? We recognize God and worship Him in wonder and awe as WW and others have pointed out.. _____________________________________ If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? I will be the first to say it isn't always fun or pleasant to be corrected by God...to be chastened, but obedience isn't always a remedy for that. Look at Job.....all those He loves God chastens....it doesn't say all the slackers or disobedient. Trial is also how we grow in faith. It can be scary when God hides His face, but the more we grow in faith the more we know it is temporary. Obedience is important but there is no way to earn our own sanctification.....it comes from trial. God induced pressure....internal and external, but we shouldn't fear it. We actually should rejoice in it. The one thing you don't want is for God to ignore you and leave you in sin.....that is a bad sign.

I just have to mention that likening God to a snake to make a point is probably not the best choice? I read about getting in a right relationship to the object of our fear by obedience......and thought.... good luck with that. It is not going to happen. Are we really still, still, still, going to try and bypass God's appointed means to get in right relation to Him? Jesus Christ. We don't jump from fear to obedience. Blood was shed for a reason. And I don't think VP"s "problem" was simply a lack of the fear of God, define it as reverence, define it as fear.....in his case it doesn't matter. VP's lack of reverence for God was a result of the complete absence of a right relationship to Jesus Christ, who for a Christian is all in all. Jesus is Lord. VP tried to bypass Him. Jesus is God's appointed means to be in right relationship to Him.......no one comes to God except through Him. That includes self-confessed Christians, of which there is none. Some of us just did a good job of faking it in TWI. Obedience, knowledge, words....are all empty and are all meaningless before God, they don't get us anywhere. They are not enough....and they will never be enough. He who honors the Father must honor the Son in the same way. It is dishonor to try and bypass Him. Who is Lord in our lives and why do we need Him if obedience out of fear gets us in right relationship to the object of our fear? It is when we recognize this holy, holy, holy God..... when we come up against this immoveable being who really is so perfect and only good that we recognize ourselves as the sinful creatures we are......then we begin to learn about the amazing love He has for us in making a way through unimaginable sacrifice. This is the work of the Holy Spirit who reveals Jesus Christ. Again, we get no credit.......we were dead in trespasses and sins.....dead people don't obey. And we love Him because He first loved us. We obey out of love, because Jesus transforms us......it is not in our sinful nature to love God's nature but as we grow in a relationship with Him through faith in Jesus and His relationship with the Father......our desires change. We desire God. And yes, sometimes we obey out of fear because we know a little tiny bit about this unchanging perfect God. It is not only consequence, but we know God is faithful and He will find a way to change us. It is prudent. That change includes our deceitful hearts....He gives us a new one. Jesus becomes our heart . If our hearts are still so deceitful......we can humbly ask God to create in us a new heart. He is able....nothing is too difficult for Him. You can try to obey all the laws, all the promises, all the doctrine.....whatever you want to call it. Go ahead and obey them out of fear to get into right relationship.....It is not going to mean a thing without God's appointed way to reconciliation to Him. Fear will keep you out of a burning building .......but faith in Jesus Christ, who he is, His obedience and His work on the cross is the way to please God. Faith, love, and recognition which comes from the Holy Spirit is the path to obedience.....the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Sorry for the interrupt WW......I understand you two are having a conversation....it just struck me as odd that God is being compared to a snake and I believe we have to be careful that the idea of obedience out of fear is the way to be in right relationship to the object of fear. We are in a love relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Carry on. :)

Job never knew why he was tested....God didn't owe him an explanation and Job understood that when confronted by God. Job suffered greatly and he was a righteous and obedient man. Some Christians obey God unto horrible and painful deaths and the result is often that others believe. I don't think this is what you are implying, but in TWI we had a mindset that if we believed properly and were obedient to what we thought was the word, we would have a hedge of protection around us...... it doesn't work that way. Paul was obedient and he felt deserted by all but a handful, Peter knew how he was going to suffer and die....Jesus told him. Whether it is love or fear which motivates us I don't believe obedience is quid pro quo. Faith is tested, we are tried.....and sometimes we never understand why something bad happens. Sometimes we need the rain to grow in faith. I could never accept that in twi...it made me angry when people spoke of holiness, or the fear of God or that bad things can and do happen to obedient Christians. God displays His strength in our weakness and sometimes our suffering glorifies Him. Isn't it His glory, and not our obedience that matters?

I guess maybe the thing to consider is that Jesus took what was due us......He stood in our stead. He was totally blameless...He never sinned. God is perfectly righteous to have wrath against sin and unrighteousness. That is the right response, and that wrath had to be answered somewhere. God is so merciful and good and loving that He provided a sacrifice and answered for our sins. We didn't have anything to do with that...it is God's amazing love and goodness that saves us. Some people argue that they hadn't even been born or sinned when Jesus paid the price or even still that they are not so bad......they don't need a Savior from sin. Some say God is going to have to take me as I am, I tried my best, if it isn't good enough so be it. To me, that shows a lack of the fear of God. A healthy recognition of God as Almighty, Holy, Just, and Righteous helps us to understand His awesome love for us IMO. To me, it doesn't work when we think God will bend for us....He has already displayed His love in Jesus Christ.....it only works when we accept that we need Him and we recognize His love and bend to His will. There is great joy, peace, and wonder in knowing God. That is me...I am a Christian....I know others have differing opinions. I also know this opinion can be an affront to some....that is not my aim, it is simply the message of the gospel. No one forces us to accept it. At least not in this country.

Yes, Jesus came for the sinner, but He didn't say "I'm okay your okay....He said repent and He said follow me. He said be ye holy as I am holy. He basically told people they were clueless. He didn't party in the pubs or leave people there.....He leads us away from sin. He meets us where we are and then He tells us to turn the other way.....He changes us. He transforms us.......and it is Jesus who will present us to God, He is doing a work in us. So, yes, by all means pray! And yes, God loves us dearly.....but, because of where we were coming from Jesus had to suffer and die and God raised Him from the dead........ I don't want to confuse what the love of God means......it is not a blanket acceptance of everything and a come as you are love feast. God says repent....that means we are sorry and stop sinning and God does demand obedience. He absolutely knows our form...He knows our weakness and He knows what it means to be tempted......that's what we go to Him for help with. It is not a wink and a nod....it is a greater love. When we seek help it is not so much for our own conflicted desires but our desire to be more like Him. That is the desire that grows in us and that is the blessing and goodness of God. Without the fear of God we never will get there. Hope that makes sense.....maybe we are saying the same thing just differently.

Those are a great many questions. :) I may look at the fear of the Lord a bit differently than Steve or Nanten00 but I do understand what they are saying.....and what you are saying. Here is what Jesus said: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." If you take a close look at scripture and those who came in direct contact with God almighty......Job, for example....who was a righteous guy......what was his reaction when confronted directly by God? How does anyone in scripture react to Him....even His voice? Knowing God is all powerful, completely holy and perfectly righteous and then recognizing ourselves in relation to Him, we as finite flawed and sinful humans.....fear is an appropriate response. But.....the good news is.....Jesus Christ. The gospel message and how we can be reconciled to this holy and all powerful God. It is the goodness of God which leads us to repentance, but that goodness is not how most of us immediately define goodness. It is that perfect right and unimaginable goodness that leads us to repent of our sins....to recognize our sinful nature and to abhor sin. I really don't know how to articulate this, but you mentioned your dad....I bet he was a great guy because he raised a lovely daughter. To liken God to your earthy father and your relationship to him makes sense except......your father is not God. God is not like us. Did you need an advocate with your father? Could you approach Him on your own merit? Could you come to Him sin and all and still be in a relationship with him? Can you do that with God? No....we need an advocate.....God needed a sacrifice for us to be reconciled to Him. His own beloved Son. A blameless, spotless, and perfect sacrifice which He Himself provided. That is the love and goodness of God. That is how God loves us....we sing about that amazing love. That amazing goodness. What about a world under judgement that doesn't recognize the judge as having authority....no fear of God. But, everyone will fear Him one day. It won't just be respect or awe .... but fear. The scripture speaks of men trying to hide under rocks from God. God has wrath and the scriptures speak of that being a burning wrath. What are we saved from? The wrath to come and God's anger and wrath sure scare me. I pray for those I loved to be saved. I don't know Twinky but I think a healthy recognition of God as He is and the appropriate response really is the beginning for us.....it leads us to relationship. I have to tell you though....I still get a bit unnerved sometimes.....not because God is bad but because I can be bad. He is holy......I know He won't contend with me for too long....because it would break me.....as it is when He bends me I am usually pretty miserable. but eventually thankful. Fear of God.....yeah I have it. Maybe that makes me a spiritual adolescent, but my comfort or my security doesn't rest in my hands it is in the Lords and that gives me peace.

Very nicely stated, and I would just add that not only was the fear of the Lord missing in TWI, but the denial of Jesus Christ being God was problematic for practical reasons. I am not interested in a trinity debate.....that isn't my point.......my point is that we were so busy trying to define Jesus as simply human we missed that He is the express image of God. If we see Jesus we see God....God has spoken to us through Jesus Christ. The totality of the message not only began in Him ....it is finished in Him. Defining Him as like us only....denying His deity, and relegating Him to absence ..........what were we really left with? Remember ...it is the word the word and nothing but the word, but Jesus IS the word in the flesh. Anyone else see a problem? In reality what VP was saying was it is the written word as interpreted by him....nothing but that. Nanten00 from an outsiders perspective seems to have no problem identifying things that it has taken years from some of us to recognize. We really were blinded. Saving faith is a huge deal......I speak from personal experience when I say it was lacking. Jesus was an absent guy, the cross was not only missing, but it was held in contempt...... there was one translation we used, we didn't recognize the Holy Spirit as a person but a force we had authority over. As you so eloquently point out.....there was absolutely no fear of God. Little genuine repentance because it was all grace. Sin flourished even down to the lowliest member because TWI doctrines are sinful. Lust was the norm and charity was a no no or highly suspect if it was extended beyond the gates of TWI. Arrogance, greed, and bullying were rewarded. Questioning often led to shunning....and shunning is still used as a means of control. What a mess.

What is the purpose of TWI? What is its Raison d etre? Reason to be? It is a pretty self-serving organization. It draws people away from Jesus Christ and His church.......It was started by a man who left the church and sought out Word of Faith teachers and the occult to get his ears tickled. He then passed that on to thousands via PFAL and it is such a cloying theology many will never get past it. What redeeming qualities are there to make its existence good at all? Being delivered from one bad thing to another is hardly praise worthy IMO. Going from drug abuse to a Christ denying cult is just trading one evil for another. The people were not all bad......some were really lovely and still are lovely......made in God's image. Then again, I can say that about most atheists I know. It doesn't negate their goodness, but it isn't due to TWI. All bad....yeah....it has no purpose but to control people's lives. The people......we all love someone once from TWI. I even married one!! Just my opinion.

I don't want to take this thread too far a afield or get too doctrinal.....just give me a little latitude or skip my post. For myself, I have considered that just because something happened in TWI in the name of Jesus Christ, that doesn't make it deliverance or even a Christian thing. In Matthew 7 when Jesus said depart I never knew you and sent people to the lake.....He was speaking to those who did things in His name and called Him Lord, Lord. They say to Him.... Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Basically, He sends them to hell. The demon Jesus cast out in Mark called Jesus the Son of the most High God.....He knew who He was and called Him accordingly. I think that is the only one or one of two accounts in the entire gospel of Mark where Jesus is actually called who He is. Jesus drew huge crowds and had many followers......but who really made an initial lasting confession? Thomas made a conditional confession and didn't believe until after he saw the resurrected Jesus.....Peter denied Him and went fishing. Think about it.....for all the followers Jesus had, at the cross there were 3 Mary's and maybe John. Scripture is replete with warnings of the genuine and the counterfeit.....signs, miracles and wonders are not always something genuine and of God...... consider the opposition to the first century church that came from people who called themselves a part of it. I doubt the false teachers Paul called out were going around turning people into newts. Signs followed them. That is just no guarantee something is of God. Neither is tongues a guarantee of salvation, the church in Corinth illustrates this and in his epistle Paul opposes the genuine with the counterfeit. He also speaks about receiving another Jesus, gospel and spirit. Paul chastened them for easily putting up with this. Doesn't it always comes back to a right relationship with Jesus Christ... given our experience with TWI doesn't it really matter? TWI theology boldly opposes Him.....we opposed Him with our confession.....in the bible it is called the spirit of anti-Christ. God doesn't honor that....does He? We know He honors His Son. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly......there were lovely people who did kind things in TWI......I agree we had answered prayer and saw miracles.....I really believe there were genuine Christians caught up in that mess for a time. I have no doubt of that at all. But, the miracles and answered prayer are just not enough for me to dare slap God's name on any of it. I hope that explains a little bit about why I personally react like I do to some of these conversations and certain claims. It is just the way I now look at things....I know others are different but, maybe we can at the least...... consider some of these things. It really kind of bites to come to terms with what we got tricked into, but God is able to deliver us from it and to heal us. He forgives. Back to topic. Please forgive the derail. I just wanted to explain myself a bit more as sometimes I think it sounds like I come out of left field and I am on the attack...not so.....sorry to be so

Steve, I didn't mean to add to your bad day if I did. It is not personal.....I just have a different take on TWI. I agree there were some lovely people and some truth mixed in. The way I remember it in TWI is different. More that we gave Jesus lip service at best, but it seems mostly we were about denying Him and elevating the bible. We even thought we operated the Holy Spirit. At least I did. I really don't think that God bypassed His Son to deliver any of us in TWI. Maybe there were people who truly honored the Son, but I never really met any myself. Also, my thinking is that deliverance is not being caught up in that theology and true blessing is being in a love relationship with the Son, truly connected to the vine. Anything else is secondary and I don't think God gives second best. When He truly reveals Himself that the greatest deliverance. I missed that in TWI. I understand that you and others look back and work things out differently, but personally, I have a very difficult time finding any deliverance in anything I got out of TWI......perceived blessings just seemed to dig me in deeper. It confused me for a long time. Then again, I wasn't saved. Maybe you were. I first listened to the gospel message in TWI and never really heard it correctly. I heard the version with a Jesus who was just a man, my big bro, who wanted me to have stuff. I never came to the cross...I actually mocked the cross and had disdain for it. I never repented. I never understood faith because I had believing. I never honored the Son, He was a means to an end. I received whatever it was that was promoted in session 12 and SIT via PFAL and I believe I had to be delivered from that. I had to repent and be delivered from all of it......it forced me to my knees. I appreciate you have a different perspective on certain aspects of your experience, I really do. I can enjoy your contribution and consider what you have to say. It just wasn't the same for me. I didn't mean to seem argumentative. I believe you saw what you did and recognize God in it. And yes, God is faithful, forgiving and God is good!!! ADD: Sorry...didn't see your post....too funny...both trying to validate the other.

Speaking for myself......I had to be delivered from the deliverance I received in TWI. It was a good counterfeit and I never would have known had God not been so gracious. Sure, we called on the name of the Lord......but who we called on to save us was some strange hybrid Jesus who was VP's creation. My two cents. I was never born-again in TWI and I really think that unless one was a Christian going in, they didn't become one in TWI. Saving faith was in short supply and the Jesus I know now is not the same as I confessed in TWI. That is my experience at least.

Very true :)

You are right....you are free to believe all the lies and half truth you wish......is that what you mean? Being presented with evidence, logic, and right judgement doesn't mean you have to accept it John, but I think we call that denial and self-delusion.....not freewill. Semantics.

Okay, I have to admit that it takes some talent to set up the entire body of Christ as enemy to people who claim to be Christian. It takes talent or some kind of strange Voodoo magic to convince a large group of people they are the only ones on the entire planet who have the complete package. It wasn't just the RC's it was everyone else whom we considered inferior or demon possessed. That kind of arrogance breeds serious contempt. He had to set it up that way.....because with time and exposure to the church at large that contempt begins to reflect poorly just where it should....on the ones who are full of contempt. In fairness though....many Evangelicals cast a suspicious eye toward the Catholic Church. It is not just TWI. As for the issue of women, VP, and the apologists....I think that kind of misogyny stems from deep seated insecurity and fear. It doesn't stem from Jesus or His relationships with women. Jesus was revolutionary in His attitude toward women. Consider that the most amazing theological discourse in the Gospels was given to a woman.....an outcast and an adulterer. He saw past it all right to her heart and revealed himself to her. Heart tugging and beautiful. That is a far cry from a parked motorcoach.