geisha779

Just a little comment about this "pride" thing. First off, I can't imagine anyone is full of "pride" every moment of everyday, that is extreme and extremes usually hide a different issue. There is a HUGE difference in being proud of an accomplishment....doing something well, taking some pride in one's appearance and the pride that the bible speaks of which stems from self-righteousness. That is the pride God hates. It keeps people from seeking HIM. Being lowly of spirit is not being self-effacing, religious, or accepting as legitimate whatever idea, psalm, hymn, or revelation someone throws out there. It isn't putting aside our ability to think, consider, or express ourselves in a colorful and vibrant manner. Being lowly of spirit isn't reveling in our own wisdom, or confessing our sins in an inappropriate venue for all to see. Being lowly of spirit doesn't take away our ability to discern. Being lowly of spirit or humble before God is a recognition of our state of complete spiritual bankruptcy and our need for His divine grace. All pride is not a sin, the same goes for anger, doubt, fear and the like. We need to be careful when seeking to reinvent ourselves.....regeneration is the work of the spirit, not the flesh. It is easy to become the thing we are trying to master when God is not truly involved. Self-flagellation is not the road to righteousness, but it can lead to depression, anxiety, panic and other serious problems. None of which is God's heart for us. Just saying......

"Spiritual whorehouses"? I never heard that one and I heard and engaged in a great deal of church bashing. So, I guess cults can also qualify for 501c3 status. Ain't life grand.....go figure.

Please tell me what Socks has done other than disagree with the initial post in a thoughtful and articulate manner. You were the one who attacked him as being prideful. Those are your words so be accountable for them. You didn't like the language Socks used? That's really too bad, but it doesn't make it wrong. It was descriptive, it was accurate and it expressed how he perceived Loftus' attitude. Kudos to Socks for making it an interesting read. That doesn't make him prideful. You were the one that had no problem lauding yourself as an example of overcoming pride while erroneously judging Socks. When Wordwolf tried to engage you.....you accused him of allowing his religion to blind him? Blind him to what? Agreeing with you or agreeing with Loftus? Who has made fun of "brother' Loftus? Disagreeing with him and disliking his attitude are not the same as making fun of him. Where did anyone make fun of him? Where did anyone call him names Roy? Where did anyone hate? Those are your accusations, and they are coupled with your judgements on Socks, Wordwolf, and myself. You even used Jesus' rebuke to Peter on me. If you remember, Jesus rebuked Peter for being mindful of the things of man and not of God. I wasn't the one who posted an agnostic/atheist ramblings in the doctrinal forum for some kind of wisdom provoking lesson. What did you expect? If you really want to take a look at Jesus..... He OFTEN rebuked people for their lack of faith Roy. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Please don't cherry pick Jesus' words to make a point. I think we all have a grasp on the gospel basics, but let me remind you that while Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, forgiveness is contingent on belief, acceptance, and faith in that sacrifice. That is because it is worthy of faith. It was a hefty price. Just for the record, I don't consider Lotus an enemy. That thought never crossed my mind....why would it? I consider him in error, somewhat lost and probably incredibly conflicted, but how is he my enemy? That is just extreme. And if it is better to say nothing at all, then why did you post a provocative, challenging, and inciting post smack dab in the middle of a doctrinal discussion forum populated with Christians? Wouldn't it have been better not to say anything? You have a prolific voice Roy, but it seems not many care enough to treat you as a equal or hold you at least a tiny bit responsible or accountable for what you say. Take a look at your own judgements and words on this thread before asking others when they are going to learn. People usually master a subject before they try and teach it to others.

If Lofton is a follower of Christ I too am a hat pin.....but hey, I sometimes call the cashiers at Wal-mart "Sister". Girl power. I hope the irony is not lost on you.....you use a little critical thinking to evaluate a post that basically says you are incapable of critical thinking....and the judgements fly. I guess one can interpret critical thinking as bitter and speaking words against your brother......it is silly, but one is free to assume. Lofton has no problem with it. Loving your enemy doesn't include agreeing with or easily putting up with apostasy. We are kept by God Almighty for Jesus Christ. Jude speaks a great deal about contending and defending the faith. It would be a great topic discussion. Then again sometimes you just have to shake your head in wonder ....

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Driscoll.....here is a video. I caution you, it may cause flashbacks.....it is eerily familiar. Seriously, don't watch it if screaming from the pulpit gives you too much stress. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MQNsVf-tf_8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

Apparently I have unintentionally antagonized you Roy, pricked your pride somehow by my thoughts on the initial post. I stand by them, but I didn't mean to so bruise your ego. I know sometimes it can be frustrating when people disagree with us. I understand Loftus has a opinion and I respect his right to have an opinion, I simply don't respect his opinion. I probably should have just ignored this thread, but the truth is..... I don't like to see so many of your threads go unanswered. It hurts my heart for you. I will think twice next time. I certainly don't want to provoke you to anger.......you seem to boast a great deal in your own wisdom. Just a point here about battling our inner temple of truth? Christians believe.....we WERE children of wrath, disobedient, unholy, and slaves to sin.....but the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free. I am free to love God, I am free to have faith, I am free to worship, I am free to believe and trust......I am not bound by the law of sin and death. Christ has made me free. If the Son therefore shall make you free you shall be free indeed. I don't doubt God because I am set free from that.....and there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus......the struggles of Romans 6&7 are dealt with, but not because I have perfected my flesh or my mind, but because Jesus took my place. Free from sin...no longer BOUND to sin. Take Care!

This is funny to me now, but at the time it was devastating. I went to Emporia for the Advanced Class.....it was my WOW year and I was in the North East.....before that the South East. The climate change in Kansas wreaked havoc on my sinuses and throat, apparently I was just really sensitive to the dry heat. I had an annoying tickle in my throat that would send me into fits of coughing. Wouldn't you know it....VP came to teach and sure enough....I had a coughing fit.....no amount of water helped. Of course, since the great man himself was teaching, the coughing(I wasn't the only one) just had to be devil spirits. He went off on this torrent about the coughing and the devil. I was, of course, crushed, I just had to be open to spirits because I couldn't control my cough. Apparently the spirits were not enough to deter VP once he clapped that one oggley eye on me as he tried to play grab, pat, and leer. The look on his face was lecherous. That class, from the time I hit that campus, until the time I left was one long game of duck, hide, look away and run. I really do not see how any woman lived there unmolested. It was like open season the time I spent there.

I can't imagine questioning my faith every moment. I can't imagine living like that. It would be torture. My faith in God....isn't about me. God is worthy. He is also able to show us when we err. I hope we get past the point of questioning who Jesus is and to the point of trusting who He is.......there is rest and peace in that. That is not to say we don't at times wrestle with our faith or examine if we are on the right path. I believe those times can actually be orchestrated by God to help us grow in faith. It is possible to grieve the Holy Spirit by sin in our lives....if there are questions or issues then examination, confession and restoration is possible. Even the Apostles knew to distinguish when they were "In the spirit" and not every word they spoke was inspired by God.....I bet they even had bad days. If we don't have His witness within us then I can see how we would be questioning every moment. If it all hangs on our ability to believe we are in some deep trouble. None of that is what the initial post was about......it was an assumption that believers either won't , don't, or are unable to reasonably and intellectually question why they believe what they do about God.

Driscoll is out of control.....he has been confronted by other pastors.....he has been outed as being abusive and he just keeps getting worse. People flock to his church. I don't get it.

It is amazing how evasive we can be about that time....it is a good thing most people don't really ask too many probing questions. My favorite was the time we had a Sunday school block about cults and we covered TWI. That was really fun.

This guy studied under William Lane Craig and has the audacity to speak of a lack of critical thinking skills. Roy, have you ever listened to Dr. William Lane Craig? He is a brilliant and committed scholar who defends the resurrection. Knowing something of Loftus education and then reading his comments actually gives me a little insight. He sounds incredibly arrogant and somewhat bitter. Now I can add pride to shallow, lacking and filled with assumptions.....regarding his post. I guess he had a crisis of faith and has decided the rest of us should follow......he isn't really inspiring me to abandon Jesus and fill my life with doubt about the things I live for.....I am really not impressed. I am with Socks, I tire of the invite to join the doubters bandwagon. God is worthy of my faith. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phew! The reason I remember this so well is because I really just wanted them to shut up and let the documentary play.....it was really interesting. But no, blah, blah, blah....the devil threw a huge temper tantrum because VP filmed PFAL and the devil desperately needed all eyes elsewhere. The result was the turmoil of 1968. How frickin INSANE is that? Speaking of insanity.....how about a certain someone who claimed to have met the Angel who was guardian of the East Coast, or how this same guy saved us all by stopping a terrible hurricane. More likely he was just trying to one up Gerald W's hurricane story ..... there was a huge power struggle between the two. What better way to one up someone than by stopping your own hurricane? I look back now and I kind of shake my head....what do we do with the accompanying and inevitable embarrassment that comes with having taken these people seriously? It is no wonder hubby and I never tell people about our involvement with TWI.

A Crack in Time.......our version was complete with commentary about how the world went crazy because VP had PFAL? Please please tell me I am not the only one who remembers this great spiritual insight from the Advanced Class? I paid very hard earned money to learn this. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KvtpHdHPeg8" allowfullscreen="" width="420" frameborder="0" height="315"></iframe>

Roy, Having an opinion or critiquing a post is not unbelief nor is it going all Way Ministry toward it......using words like "crappy" and "attitude" is colorful and descriptive......casual language, and it is fairly accurate IMO. I am surprised you are so quick to judge Socks. Many of your posts go ignored and I think Socks and I were trying to make sure that didn't happen with this one. We were checking in with you. Having a difference of opinion and politely expressiing and discussing a topic it is not an attack. As you yourself have pointed out.....we can learn from each other. Socks, has a great deal to offer and his insight doesn't translate into pride. That is quite a judgement to make about his posts and really inappropriate IMO. There is heavy irony in your last statement. You have faced your pride and Socks has not faced his? That is a very prideful assumption. Faith is not merely a belief there is one God ...... devils believe and tremble. Faith is a matter of trust. Doubt and trust are on opposite ends of the spectrum. True faith doesn't come without searching, learning, and a great many questions being answered to our satisfaction. Faith also comes from being in a relationship with someone who is faithful. God is faithful. The bible tells us God is faithful, but God also shows us time and again He is faithful. Your friend's post assumes a great deal about Christians......did you know that the man who co-mapped the human genome is an Evangelical Christian with a highly analytical mind? Lee Strobel set out to disprove Christian belief in God and ended up writing "The Case for Christ." . John Lennox is a math Don at Oxford and defends Christianity in debates with people like Richard Dawkins. Wipes the floor with him IMO. Who was Harvard named for? The prep school my daughter went to was founded my DL Moody. CS Lewis was once an atheist. DA Carson was at Cambridge .... he knew NT Wright and DG Dunn. The list of thinking Christians is endless. My friend wrote the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist." I agree wholeheartedly......I think it takes a giant leap of faith not to believe in God. I think it takes a genuine suspension of reality to doubt God. Take care Roy.....hugs!

I have mentioned this before but, my all time FAVORITE is when we had a super important limb wide meeting for Advanced Class grads...it was to break down the lyrics and video of "We Are the World". A bunch of high profile people get together to spotlight a famine.....offer aid, raise money for FOOD for starving people...and somehow it is the devil's handiwork. Classic

Roy, When I shop, I carry this big pink binder full of coupons......people often ask me about it, and I have even helped random strangers save some money. The other day a woman was buying a Swifter....I gave her a coupon for 5 dollars off and a coupon for a free refill with purchase. We had a lovely chat and she was very interested in my system for saving. She said I inspired her to clip coupons and start saving. Great....I was happy to talk with her. Others have approached me and wanted to argue the merits of coupons. To them, I usually politely ask why they care HOW I shop. It seems to me that this blurb you posted is less about helping people recover from cult abuse and more an attitude about a person's faith in God. Why does he care? Does he want to rescue people from faith in God? He must have the correct way and the right answers about a creator to make the sweeping generalizations he makes. There are a great many assumptions in his post and it smacks of proselytizing. Recruits for an atheist army? What is it you liked about this post? I found it bordering on offensive, but not really worth too much concern...I was just curious about you and what is going on with you.....Are you doing okay? Hugs! :):)

I don't know about all this Roy, as I can name a great many wonderful people who are not really bigots or narrow minded and many who do not use the bible to prove another wrong or use it as a weapon. I also know some wonderfully humble people who do not suffer fools too easily, I wouldn't call that pride getting in their way. I try to remember that we are fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image. Although I am not always good at this....it really helps when I do remember that God is Creator. This helps me to have some patience. Nobody is perfect, but there are good people who do try and do their best.

Your post reminds me of the lyrics to Amazing Grace...... Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved

Bingo! Twinky, Bullinger is not really highly regarded or recognized by most bible scholars as the go to person for FOS used in scripture. We learned Bullinger's take on FOS as the gospel authority. In reality, it is pretty esoteric information, apparently much of which has been debunked. I am not dissing Bullinger......I am not trained in FOS...but, he was a hyper-dispensationalist. There are many FOS used in scripture, and bible scholars are not ignorant of this......but, "Idiom of permission" is uniquely Bullinger as T&O points out. The acceptance of "idiom of permission" as being correctly discerned by Bullinger actually shapes some important theology. So, great question and discussion topic.

"Idiom of permission" as we learned it in TWI comes from Bullinger. Do you have a Companion bible? Why is that even confusing? If you do a search for idioms used in the English language that is what you will find. If you search "Idiom of permission' you are going to find either Bullinger, ex-twi or possibly Lamsa. What are you expecting to find?

The project has been given a "green light". "Feel free." "Knock yourself out" . I wish I could think of more, but I can't. We use idioms to imply permission all the time. I wouldn't use Bullinger's "idiom of permission" to defend a theology and I wouldn't read the OT in light of it either....but yeah, it is a real thing.

Couldn't it be a bit of both? Most of us have a tendency to romanticize our youth even under the best of circumstances. I bet if we toured the houses we grew up in they would seem much smaller than in our memories, but we remember them from the vantage point of being little. Couldn't it be that people remember a time when they were young, excited, and full of love and hope? It doesn't change the fact that it was a nasty cult then too, but some people have their entire lives wrapped up in TWI. I understand why some people think it was better, in many ways it probably was, youth, health, beauty, freedom from responsibility and the promise of a future...... Is there a limit to how many "Thuds" of reality one person can handle? When I think of the things I squandered for TWI, including my youth and opportunities....I come very close.

Jesus stood up for Stephen. Literally. That always moves me. I believe God cares greatly about what has happened to people hurt by TWI, and that it is more than either of us can articulate. And I don't think they all await judgement......they are neck deep in heresy and I don't see Him moving to snatch them out. That is judgement too and it is not necessarily delayed judgement. We can be thankful and call on the Lord to deliver us. At least we know to put our hands out for continued deliverance. :) Yes, I do think the lord hears those who cry out to Him, but it is difficult when we still believe everything and anything replaces Him.

I would never think that you condone that behavior. . . and I am from Massachusetts, we are raised on sarcasm......my point was TWI and their convenient moral compass. Evil is never okay depending on who the perpetrator is and the way TWI whitewashes things for gain is just another indicator of whom they serve. As Christians, we have a radical relationship with evil and good....hating one and clinging to the other. It is stark and it is obvious....or at least it should be. I thought your post was astute!! :)

You ask really good questions and I wish I had the answers, maybe then I could be a help to those who need it the most. If it is a familial relationship, well that brings up a whole different set of issues. Those are strong bonds and I think God designed it that way. I can't even imagine the inner conflict.... I think I would probably just shut it all too.. Rejoice....:)