geisha779

The Tragically Hip......Bobcaygeon <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gpaTDK7kkNA" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe> Same group .....The Darkest One.....I like this one because it features the Trailer Park Boys....I just love Bubbles! If salty language offends you....don't watch this video or ever watch Trailer Park Boys. Although....it is the funniest television series ever created. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/s_DR45Mtrsg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

I am just curious why you believe VP only stole material from those worth stealing from? I believe just the opposite....he took from the fringe and esoteric. VP had itching ears and I think he rejected sound theology in favor of a cobbled together Word of Faith based theology. I don't think he did us any favors with what he taught us about the Holy Spirit.

Did someone promise Job's servants a long and prosperous life? Women and children suffer and die everyday. Do they deserve that? People still die of hunger and easily curable disease in many parts of the world......do you think they agree to that? Are they expendable? Did someone promise us 80 years of easy living and I missed it? If only there were some keys to an abundant and long pain free life.......a way to hold God's feet to the fire and give us our due!! If someone put that info all together in a class, that is a class I would take. God didn't even spare His only begotten and beloved Son the suffering and agony of the cross. What is up with that? The man born blind for God's glory.....I doubt being blind in that culture would have been his first choice. But maybe, ......when we catch a small glimpse of God's glory and His righteousness our perspective about what life means changes. We are quick to judge God according to our moral standards.....but what if the purpose of our life is to glorify God. What if we are actually fulfilled in this purpose? Then living and dying for His righteousness takes on a whole new meaning. The book of Job doesn't prove Job's righteousness.....it shows there is no one who is righteous including Job. Job saw God and ended up stopping his gums from flapping and repented. The book of Job reveals God's righteousness. When Job saw God, he had nothing to say but "I am sorry". After all his suffering and tragedy he didn't march up to God and complain.........call him unfair or a despot......Job said.... "I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." It does all come down to perspective. How do you know that they were not created for that one purpose .... to glorify God? Is that purpose greater than living 80 years with some prosperity and health? That depends on what you believe about God I guess. How do you know that they don't have eternal life now in the presence of His glory.....fulfilled and complete in His love? God is Just, but not according to our standards, but His.

It doesn't say Peter was afraid of James and it doesn't say they were James cohorts or that James sent them......it says they recently came from James. Funny choice of words as Paul could have said they recently came from Jerusalem. I guess you can read into that, but that is all it is.....reading into Paul's choice of words. It could mean something, but it might just be the way he decided to communicate where they came from. One word as good as another. Here is why it is important to know all the things we do about Peter......Peter's reaction in this instance is not going to shock us, or even cause us to read more into it than we should. This was the same Peter I described earlier......he was like this his whole life. This is the same Peter who denied the Lord, the same guy who went a fishing and the same Peter who told the Lord how he thought it should be. Does it surprise anyone he got up and moved his chair when pressure was applied? It shouldn't. It was a really short lived rift and Peter obviously responded well to the rebuke as he later defended Paul against the Judaizers. Peter obviously took it to heart and one of the reasons we even see it in scripture is that it serves to illuminate Paul's Apostleship as standing on its own. There is some tension between works and grace, but as Steve points out it is not in regard to salvation. We have seen first hand what happens when people use grace as a reason to sin without transformation or concern and understanding about God's ordained good works or the work of the HS. We also have a unique opportunity to understand from Peter's perspective. We know what it is like to be pressured by an intense group hell bent on an incorrect theology. We also have some insight into James who was the Lord's brother, lived with Him, saw Him everyday.......and tried to push Him off a cliff. He didn't believe Jesus until he saw Him resurrected. James was devout, once very pious, and now dealing with serious issues in his church. They were poor, hungry, persecuted and having to make important decisions. You can see why James focus is perhaps different than that of those from more prosperous churches. Human nature. It doesn't go away when reading scripture. Personalities don't go away, individual leanings don't go away and there is usually some insight into why people react the way they do in scripture. James, old Camel Knees, was a very devout Jew, and the cultural changes that were happening were probably the most shocking and difficult for him. It was Jesus who said "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." and Jesus who called gentiles dogs who could lick the crumbs from under the table. Jesus came first for Israel. It was Paul, who was raised up by Jesus to carry out the second half of His ministry and bring the gospel to the gentiles. Paul, who persecuted and killed Christians. Paul, who was also a devout Jew. You have got some wild and crazy things going on here.....culturally shocking....a whole new way of looking at things....doing things. As Christians, we can tend to set some strange moral standards for ourselves and then judge by them as Paul talks about in Romans......but these were not arbitrary standards to those who were once Jewish and now found themselves in a new faith......this was the law. It is not difficult to understand how there was some confusion and temptation.....these were culturally deeply ingrained norms and some had racially motivated prejudice. Add to the mix these men who went from place to place trying to yoke people again to bondage......and they were, I believe, in reality an outside element......and you have some tension. The church was being built facing real opposition coming from more than one direction. Sometimes appearing to come from within. This is why it is important to be able to understand and make a distinction between true and false believers. I know that doesn't set well with some, but it is important and helps to distinguish what is going on. . . . that is probably why so much of the NT is devoted to the subject. We can't forget the personalities and backgrounds of James, Peter and Paul when looking at these things. It doesn't help to create an insurmountable issue that in reality may not really be there once we step back and take in the big picture. Great advice by the way Jerry. :) My 2 cents and probably not even worth 2 cents!

It seems to me that the things I would leave out would be the things that paint me in a less than flattering light. Human nature being what it is....people do go to great lengths to hide things which portray them as less than perfect. There is an entire industry devoted to PR and spin. One of the amazing things about scripture is that at times it does include disobedience, confusion, misunderstanding, and a failure on the part of the Apostles. This actually adds to their credibility. If you were Peter wouldn't you want to do some serious editing? Yet, it is all there for us to see. I see your point Jerry.....and it is a really good question, but you have to wonder why ...if they were going to fail to communicate something correctly......it is not the things that showed them to be inept, less than right and at times disobedient? When we look at the Apostles from a distance, especially Peter, one of the things we can see .....is transformation. It is not always immediate like VP portrayed it on the day of Pentecost, but we see Peter growing in his faith. We see a journey, warts and all. Peter struggled, he wrestled, and he did, at times, have failure in his life. We can see God teaching him, lifting him time and again, and setting him back on the correct course. This makes it all the more trust worthy as we can relate to this faith.....it is a roller coaster ride as any Christian can tell you. There are seasons and we see this communicated in Peter's life. If they were going to edit.... it seems they would more than red line that Peter actually did tell the Lord of the universe NO......or that Jesus called him Satan(not Peter's best day) or that he denied the Lord or that he was so hot headed he cut off Roman's guards ear. How about going fishing after the resurrection? How about being cornered by Jesus and having Jesus quiz him on the veracity of his love? Not to mention refusing to eat with the gentiles after him being the one who got the shocking revelation that it was okay. But, we know all of this about Peter. I think you are right, we have to look at the bigger picture and look at it in light of the human condition........if they were going to hold something back.....it seems that it would be the things that raise these questions. Looking at Peter in light of our own faith and journey answers some of these questions....I think so anyway. If you were going to write a book supposedly containing thee truth, the first thing you would want to do is to establish your credibility as the messenger.......ironically....the warts and all...do help to establish their credibility.

I don't want to steer the topic too far astray either.....but this article is from TWI's website. This is their take on when life begins.....and of course according to them it is the correct answer from "God's rightly divided Word". They cling to a few verses and some twisted logic while ignoring the rest of scripture. http://www.theway.org/article.php?page=nov_11_2&lang=en

That verse is in the context of liberty and not doing the things we can do because it might cause another weaker brother to stumble. . . we can tend to set arbitrary standards for ourselves and others where there is no clear answer to what is prohibited. An example might be drinking.....there are some Christians I will not drink a glass of wine around....not because it is wrong to have a glass of wine....but because my wine drinking can become the topic of judgment.....or conversation or confusion for them. I give up that liberty for them. As I should, because I am to love them. VP was correct that the problem is sin consciousness, but, not for those who do things in faith.....but for those who don't understand or have set a standard for themselves and others that they shouldn't set. What we can't do....is set arbitrary standards for things that are clearly prohibited. Just like VP did. Things like adultery, being drunk, lust, greed, and so on. And to add.....there are some Christians I don't drink with, not because they would be offended, but because they don't stop at one bottle of Merlot, but can put away a few on their own. :) Hope that makes sense.

This is another great explanation of the meaning of inerrancy......DA Carson did this for the ehrman project. I think it is appropriate for this topic. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i6zudFtjI4U" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Kit, Horatio Spafford had four daughters who were lost at sea, not two.....and he was traveling to pick up his wife who survived. He had already lost his only son who died earlier. As he sailed over the place where his daughters were lost he went to his cabin and wrote the words to It is well with My Soul. He was grief stricken and devestated by the loss and the tragedy in his life.....I am sure he and his wife mourned greatly, but his faith was real and it sustained him. He didn't blame God, but was comforted by God. That is where our challenge can be the greatest. Horatio Spafford went on to do wonderful service for God and his life still inspires. We still find comfort in the words he wrote. I have truly been thinking about you so often these past few days. I am so very sorry for what you are going through. My heart just aches for you. Here is the hymn and Spafford's story....... <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/T8_EfDqF7YI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

In this short video Ravi Z explains a Christian perspective to the scriptures.....he juxtaposes this to the Muslim's belief about the Koran. As he points out, a Muslim believes that the Koran is "word for word" perfect and the exact revelation and representation of God himself. It is believed to have been given to Muhammad in dictation form, which he took down and relayed to others. Translation of the Koran is frowned upon because the words are meant to be perfect, exact and precise. The bible on the other hand.....points us to the perfect person of Jesus Christ. That is not to belittle God's holy word, but as Ravi and many others have pointed out, one word might be just as good as another to convey meaning. There is nothing sacred in the words chosen. Language can be imperfect, but is the truth they convey imperfect because of that? I don't believe it is.... In TWI we practiced a form of bibliolatry, much closer to a Muslim's approach to the Koran rather than a Christian approach to the bible. Couple that with our attitude and certain beliefs about Jesus Christ, legalism, and a stringent adherence to hierarchy and I think in many ways we were closer in practice to fundamentalist Islam. TWI bears little resemblance to Christianity despite the sometimes familiar vernacular. The video is short and from a series done at Illinois University. Ravi Zacharias is great to listen to when trying to gain some perspective on what is the Christian faith. That is in part, due to his ability to defend and articulate the faith. TWI, PFAL, VP, the attitudes and approaches we had spring from an attack on the Christian faith and Jesus Christ Himself IMO. If our desire is to learn the faith.....I think it is helpful to listen to some good apologists. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pHRP0I2SrVs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

An unkind AND envious pseudo Christian TWI leader,,,,,sharpening their teeth on people? Sounds about right.

Thanks OS....it is really interesting and helpful to hear how people wake-up. Maybe the waking up comes in stages and just like different people wake-up from sleep in different ways......we wake-up from TWI in different ways. When we left, it was with other people, so we had built-in support which made it easier. Although it was our community, we didn't rely on TWI for income or living conditions. I also already had one foot near the door because of a "reproof" session that had a paradoxical effect, instead of humbling me, it enraged me. I was already starting to see the boundary issues. When we did hear all the dirty little TWI secrets....and nothing was held back.....it was really easy to believe them. It put so many things into perspective, and it really was like waking up from a sleep. It was easy to walk away. I never had a desire to change things in TWI. That is me, I wanted my freedom and self back. But, it was only the first stage of waking up....for years I still believed ALL TWI theology. They had the word. Getting past that strange theology took much more time. For us, it was a process. At one point I chucked the whole faith thing entirely and became apathetic. I think leaving physically is probably far easier than checking out of TWI mentally and in matters of faith. At least it was for us.

That is just hateful....I hope people tell her NO. That is vile......really ugly. Despicable. What is even more sad is if people let her control them to the point of abandoning their elderly parents. Jesus, while dying on the cross, was still concerned with Mary's welfare. Dying for the sins of the world and still looking out for His mom.

I could not agree more, for me....it is great that I memorized some scripture.....BUT, overcoming the immediate, almost visceral response, and the PFAL influenced understanding of those particular scriptures was really difficult. Each time I recited them it just became more ingrained. There are still verses that make me a bit uncomfortable when I hear them said in a certain way....not really a great response for someone who does believe the bible is God's holy word. It is what it is and when I hear "I can do all things....." recited even a tiny bit like a rallying cry......I still cringe.

I don't know where TWI got the idea, but little summaries of doctrine meant to be recited and retained can be found in the epistles. They didn't have a canon in the early church, but doctrine wasn't a free for all. Things like 1 Corinthians 15; 3, 4, 5 and beyond....... were pieces of central theology summarized for memorization. You can find these little schooling pieces, which would have been familiar to the church, all over the place in scripture.

Interesting. Were there ever thoughts or plans for Joe Schmo believer to kiss the masters feet? The ones who opted to go WOW and "serve" in others ways instead of go to college and plan a life? The average "believer" often turned their back on family and friends, true support systems, to live in the "true" household? What about the people who got so caught up they didn't plan for retirement...... What a joke it all was....we don't get that time back. I do remember LCM or some idiot saying that our kids were our retirement. Just what a parent wants to do....burden their children. Clearly, he never met my daughter.....sweet girl...love her, but I can't even get her to sweep the kitchen. I think supporting Mom and Pop in our sunset years is a stretch.

As Ham points out., there is a difference in being cheap and stingy......reusing disposable cups and coffee grounds and being thrifty and frugal. Taking some time and a little effort to stretch the money I work hard for is a source of pride with me. Recently I have been approached about doing PSA's on the radio....money saving minutes. I will be sharing tips on how to stretch money to make everyday purchases. A few years ago I found myself supporting two households......working too much more wasn't an option as I also found myself caretaker to a sick individual. I had to learn ways to stretch a dollar. I learned how to coupon and to take advantage of money saving programs at large chain stores like CVS, Walgreens, and Rite-Aid. . . . . Target. It is the best thing I could have done for my situation. I actually had more than I could ever use once I got the hang of it. I no longer support two households, but I still use all the money saving tips I learned and I donate items such as food, diapers, formula, personal care items, and clothing. In some families toothpaste is actually a luxury item. The difference now is that I do it because I like it and because I like to use my "talent" to help others. While in TWI, I was cheap because I was always broke by shoveling what income I did have into that organization. TWI's promotion of cheapness, seems to stem in part from a desire to control people and to squeeze them dry. I don't see much wrong with stretching a dollar....we work for them, why not work a little more to get the most from them? I do see a problem with stretching them and denying self to give money to a group like TWI. I don't think it is right that they encourage people to live on the cheap so that they can gather ABS. TWI's ABS system seems to be some kind of spiritual usury or some strange indulgence racket. If you are going to be frugal...do it for your benefit or the benefit of someone who needs it....God isn't broke, He doesn't need your cash to survive and TWI has plenty of money they manipulated from the backs of hard working people, many whom they have tossed aside. I can't think of a LESS noble and useless effort than throwing money away by giving it to TWI. End of sermon!!

Can't argue with that....nor would I want to. Sure, "we" is painting with broad strokes, it wasn't personal....sorry if it seemed to be. What I meant was the top down perversion of these simple truths, which is why I mentioned VP rewriting the Christian faith to suit his lusts. I remember hearing these things about freedom in sermons and teachings.....and the foul and vile language used to teach scripture considered freedom in Christ. The railing at churches, at Christians. There were many people born again before TWI who got caught up in it.....but, you also had a bunch of unregenerated souls ruling the roost....preaching about freedom while enslaving others. That is what was destined to happen while they were still bound to sin. I can't speak to why we went through it all....I still don't understand it myself and I do wonder about why I had to get caught up in that only to be delivered much later. I know God is faithful, I prayed to know Him and He eventually let me.....but, I took a funny route to salvation. So, maybe some did go through it to help others out. Seems reasonable. Don't ask me....I am still trying to understand why I fell for it all. :)

The VP version reads a little differently with some time and perspective......I think VP had the answers to his questions.....he came from a pretty theologically sound denomination. It wasn't as if no one knew theology or doctrine back in the day. Maybe......he simply didn't LIKE the answers he had. This is pretty evident by what he eventually adopted as doctrine and practice. The man rewrote the Christian faith to suit his own lusts. You mentioned freedom as being the true foundation of Christianity. I can't argue with that....nor would I want to....but, I remember what we considered "Freedom" in TWI. How we were free in Christ. Everything sounds good on the surface, but when you begin to look at what that meant in TWI as opposed to what it means in the church.....you can see that subtle perversion of a simple truth. To us, it meant we were not bound to rules, or restrictions.....to the law. It went from that to pretty much everything is fair game. I remember freedom in Christ being a great opening to bash the church. It was everything except.......what it actually is!! Before we accepted Jesus Christ as savior....we were BOUND to the law of SIN and BOUND to death. Bound....we didn't have a choice....we didn't even have the freedom to love God. We were not free to serve....and SIN and DEATH were our only choices. Now, as a Christian, I am free to love and free serve God......what freedom in Christ doesn't mean is I am free to get high at twig or sleep around. I have a Lord and a Master whom I am bound to and slave to but, now I am free to obey and follow. Simple truth was so subtly and in an ugly manner perverted in TWI and it was difficult to see the difference. We used the same verbiage as Christians......it sounded right, but it meant something very different. The same thing with VP's perversion of the meaning of grace.......and the strange thing to come to terms with is that just because VP perverted these things.....it doesn't mean they are not true......we just have to learn the difference and decide if that is what we want. VP made his decision. The Newsboys have a great song that conveys this simple truth as Christians understand freedom.....it doesn't mean no rules or a free for all. And for the record, this is what an auditorium filled with Christians actually looks like. If you have never been to one of these concerts....you should go....you won't soon forget it. The Newsboys, are some of the most humble and nicest guys around. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FtdTKdCzv1Y" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

http://www.greasespo...ength-of-posts/

My husband and I were talking the other day about a couple we know that are still involved and living at HQ. We remember them fondly or at least try to remember them in a good light. They disowned us. That could be somewhat deserved as we were not at our best while in TWI . Right after we left....hubby saw the husband of the couple we know......it is still etched in his mind because he could actually see the glazed over look in his eyes and remembers the conversation because all he could parrot was "You have to get back to the blue book.' It was like a huge void in this man's ability to hear or comprehend and a boat load of denial. Hubby told him all we knew about the adultery, money, abuse, the women, the deaths......and yet....no response. That conversation actually served to really wake us up more......but, now they have been in for over 30 years......longer than NOT involved. I am really curious how they can continue to think they are involved in something good, special or at all relevant. I wonder how they can continue to deny true Godly movements and real churches full of Christians and accept TWI as important or true. If you are ever up to it....and it is not too nosy.....can you elaborate on this mind-set that had you believe God was at work in TWI? Maybe a little more of how you started to come out of it. I know that is a great deal to ask....so, if you can't or don't want ....no problem.....what you share here is very very interesting and helpful.

I have to disagree that this post is well written, succinct and clear. He introduces his post with a series of provocative questions and then fails to answer them in the body of the post. They are just left hanging there. He begins with the assumption that MOST believers don't question their faith and fails to give any clear evidence or examples to support this assumption, so again, we are left waiting. When he does address something he feels is relevant......it is with very vague generalities and some allusion to personal experience, so we are left with him as the authority and basically asked to take his word for it. We are left having to take his assumptions on faith. We don't live in a vacuum and some of us are familiar with at least one of the men whose student he claims to have been. Dr. William Lane Craig is pretty well known in Christian circles....he is an avid debater and prolific author. Dr. Craig is very up front about his education and journey, so some of us are even familiar with that aspect of the equation and when Loftus alludes to the nameless, faceless Profs he has dealt with, my mind jumps to Dr. William Lane Craig. It is difficult for me to reckon a brilliant and recognized scholar like Craig to a lack of critical thinking skill. Loftus loses credibility with this unsubstantiated and off-handed dig at Christian scholars. It sounds petulant and makes me think there is some personal axe to grind we are simply not privy to. He throws out another explanation for his generalization and assumptions with the idea of indoctrination. Having been in a high pressure group that uses indoctrination techniques and having some experience with the Christian church at large I have the faculties and experience by which I can discern between the two groups. They are not the same animal......and having been in TWI I think I may actually suffer from some hyper-vigilance in regard to indoctrination. His theory is shallow and it is lacking. There are so many issues with his post. . . . . and to me it reads a little desperate and it reads like it is written by someone with an a huge chip on his shoulder. There is a back story here somewhere that would shed some light, but we are not given enough information to understand where he is coming from. It is disrespectful to the reader, be it Christian or atheist, because it is so lacking in the evidence needed to support his haphazard and outrageous claims. He certainly doesn't consider his readers intelligence. We are asked to take far too much on faith to take him seriously IMO. The more you learn the less you know....... in some form or another makes its way into a great many sermons, Christian writings, and discussions. I am not sure the exact words attributed to Socrates....I thought it was something about wisdom, but Loftus did not use that quote by chance, and he simply twisted for his own purpose. I thought it was just another dig at Christians because we really do hear it all the time. Good catch!

It is really nice that Roy apologized to you Socks....and I think you deserve an apology for some of the harsh and unfounded things you have been accused of on this thread. But, apologizing while comparing himself to you and asking who is more Christ like is giving with one hand and taking away with the other. I have tried to understand what happened on this thread.......it is a mystery to me. Even if you didn't say it.....saying that Loftus' post reads like nonsense is not name calling. In some detail, you defended your position in a clear and articulate manner, and I believe you did show Loftus' words to be nonsense. Instead of addressing what you said....Roy complained about the length of answer! It is a no win situation.....you are the villian. Not only did I name several thinking and well respected Christians.....I posted a video of one in particular who explained his search. John Lennox learned TWO languages, lived in Communist countries and has spent YEARS debating, discussing and defending faith with atheists.He knows EXACTLY WHY he believes in God, the bible, and has freely and with great thought....chosen the Christian faith. He clearly communicates that fact. He is a scientist and a mathematician who teaches at one of the world's most respected educational institutions. He is a Christian whose existence reveals Loftus to be nonsensical in his assumptions. I could names so many more. Loftus' post does READ LIKE NONSENSE. It isn't even presented very well. It reads like a huge giant insult by someone with an axe to grind. If we want to compare your words to Jesus..... you are MILD in comparison to some of the things He said about a lack of faith. Roy has quoted Jesus speaking to Peter. Peter left everything in his life to follow Jesus and Jesus called him Satan. Despite being stuck on the pride thing in regards to this verse, it is also speaking about Peter's lack of faith. Peter had just been shown something by God, that the truth he did speak had come directly from God. Peter had JUST declared Jesus the Messiah, and then Peter went on to rely on his own insight. He had a better plan for Jesus. That is how he was being prideful....trusting in his own misguided wisdom concerning the things of God. One of the things Jesus rebuked people for was their lack of faith. "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? " Jesus used harsh language and he didn't approve or give credence to every opinion. Even those of His beloved disciples. Jesus didn't defend atheism or an atheists thoughts as precious, important or even worthy of respect and then call it loving to do so..... We are able to separate a person's words from their humanity and respect the person as being created by God and disagree without it being personal. Let a Christian have an opposing view point and express it and the sky is falling. What I want to know is what Roy thinks is so valid about Loftus' post that he has to defend it. It must be important to him because no one challenged Loftus right to an opinion or his right to think what he will....we SIMPLY didn't respect his opinion. We challenged its tone, tenor, and logic. The horror! There is no point to this thread and I am not sure of the initial intention either....but I think it is best left to fade away. Who knows what you will be accused of next....I don't want to watch it!!

Well, if she was in the Corps with you, and you were in one of the early Corps......how long has she been spiraling in that cesspool? You do the math. I don't care what shape, color, or texture.....that many years of indoctrination into the sewage of TWI life and thought process has to do something to the part of the brain that tells us what is relevant and appropriate. It did make me laugh right out loud .

People often put themselves in subjection to others without thinking. I would imagine you do so as well......as you probably follow the laws of land and societal norms without parsing each and every statute or custom we as a society live by. Christians come to put themselves under subjection to the Lord willingly, consciously, through examination, reflection, and decision. That hardly makes it a non-thinking proposition. In truth, it is the opposite. Being in subjection to the Shepherd, we sheep come to this of our own free will and that is not the same as blind or empty faith. It is not the same as following without thinking The triune nature of God is the perfect example of how being in subjection works as being unity. Probably well beyond this particular conversations limit, but an example nonetheless. I mentioned John Lennox in an earlier post......he gives a talk on faith in God......pretty enlightening. Is Faith Delusional? I hope someone gets a chance to listen and to enjoy!! And Socks....I looked at the book you mentioned.....I am interested in how we can train our brains!! :) We had a crash course in neural pathways when my eldest went through some trials. Retraining through consequence, being a mentoring parent, and the consistency it takes to effect genuine change .... actually helped me as much as it did her....but, it is not an easy thing to do. We are all still a work in progress. Life is seldom easy! <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Cp1W_3ddaJI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>