geisha779

Just a quick thought....in the gospels it does speak of many possessed and spirits were cast out of persons whose actions were controlled until deliverance.....if that doesn't mean possession as we understand the word in our vernacular......what does? Although, these were not believers they often became followers after their deliverance. We have clear examples in Jesus' ministry of what possesion means regardless of how the word is translated. I can give you a good blog that has many interesting things about Greek translation, nuance, and such if anyone is interested. http://www.teknia.com/ As for choice, freewill, and the sovereignty of God it is something I still consider . . . .I have never been able to completely buy into the concept of predestination but, then again, I am no brain trust. Sorry to hear about your Mom Rottie Grrrl.... I care for my Mom and Dad both and at times it can be overwhelming. I just remind myself that there is going to come a day when I will want to visit or see them and I will not be able so I am ever grateful to still have them....no matter how much of my life or time is consumed by their care. I am so sorry about your Momma and hope you spend some wonderful time with her. Hugs and Love!!

I am one of those people that believe God is in control of everything and the whole creation.....the entire creation........ is in subjection to God's purpose because.... we can't thwart it. The creation includes Satan. Satan is a created being. God is eternal. Satan was required to ask God before he sifted Peter or before he challenged Job. Satan meant it for evil, but God used it for good. Much in the same way Paul turned someone out into the world so that the soul might be saved. This makes sense to me, as does a refining fire, but as for a Christian being possessed by the devil...... not so much. The idea that Satan can actually enter a person where the Holy Spirit already dwells, subjugate the Holy Spirit...who is God....and he Satan can assume complete control over God's child, this is a tough concept for me. God doesn't control everything, but Satan can completely possess? I can't see it.... A person is not compartmentalized to the point where the Holy Spirit dwells in the soul but the devil can own the mind. At least I don't see it that way. I absolutely do not believe a Christian can be possessed by Satan if they truly belong to God. God is able to keep His own. Just my perception. Maybe how we approach some of these things comes down to what we believe and understand about God? His character and attributes? Nothing can thwart His purposes or will. Sounds like complete and ultimate control. Why would one want to thwart God? God is righteous.....unlike Christians who have someone's righteousness imputed to them by great sacrifice, God is actually righteous. Which means right. Perfectly right. It is a difficult concept to wrap ones mind around. Never wrong....ever.....always right. This is why we can put our complete faith in Him. He is able to show us time and again with incredible patience that He is right. We had better hope He is in complete control. There is obedience to something but still....the concept of free will eludes me in scripture because of the depravity of man. This is something I am still considering but we are obedient to something. Looking at scripture....we are dead in our sins.....but one day we raise ourselves to life? No, I can't see that. Lazarus didn't just decide to arise or a kid who falls down a deep well doesn't decide to just climb out. I don't think we just decide to believe. I think it is God who saves us......it takes a supernatural act to save us....it takes God doing it. We are blind, disobedient and self-seeking and it is God who gives us the faith to believe....who reaches in and pulls us up. I really don't think we believe on our own. God has to open our eyes and give us the faith to believe. Scripture says that he blinds some and opens the eyes of others.Sounds like control. Our whole lives can be a build up to that moment where God saves us. I really don't believe scripture supports the concept of freewill as we use it our vernacular. But, it is something I still ponder. Yet, we are still rightly held responsible before God because He shouts out from creation, our conscience and His word. Go figure. God had every reason to expect obedience from Adam.....and the serpent in the garden should have been of no consequence. Adam knew God and God provided all Adam needed. God could have had ten serpents there. It should not have mattered. Adam was the one with free-will choice and because of his choice we fell into sin.. The choice was made for us, but God provided a second Adam who made it right. The providence of God.....gotta love it!! God is sovereign.... When you hear a Christian say God is in control....it may just mean that person has been through it and come to a place of faith in God's authority....it isn't necessarily a cop-out phrase.......it can be a real declaration of faith in a sovereign God. Since this is the doctrinal forum and a doctrinal question I can actually post a few verses, concepts and truth about God to consider without being "redirected". Hugs Rottie Grrrl hope I didn't cloud the issue more. I am just musing aloud. Happy seeking..... In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. . . Eph 1:6 I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Romans 9:21 Our God is in the heavens; he does as he pleases. Psalm 115.3 These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you. Psalm 50:21 The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. 103:19 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Proverbs 16:9 My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose Isa 46:10 For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back? Isa 14:27 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9:18 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Proverbs 19:21 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Lamentations 3:38 And said, "O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you. 2 Chronicles 20:6 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4 Who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness. Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows on them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble. Isaiah 40 But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. Job 23:13 He makes nations great, and he destroys them; he enlarges nations, and leads them away. Job 12:23 No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel can avail against the Lord. Prov 21:30

If God is in relationship to us, I don't believe we do define Him through intelligence alone. How smart would one have to be to know God? Is anyone that intelligent? That is what we did in TWI ....try to define God through the text with intellectual assent to a form of knowledge....... Knowing God is found in the relationship we have with Him. He is very able to reveal Himself ...... Read the Psalms if you are genuinely interested in what a relationship with God looks like. I don't understand what you mean by "contrived means" and not sure how you assume them when you seek to define God through intelligence? That makes no sense to me.....in order to spot contrivance you would have to be intimately familiar with the genuine and that is what you have just denied knowing??

I think the simple answer is that God allowed it. . . . God allowed him to be there. Even Satan is in subjection to God. The question of why God allowed this brings up all kinds of interesting moral questions and I think how we consider and answer them reveals much about our understanding and relationship with God. These are good things to consider RottieGrrrl .... in my world anyway. There is much more to these accounts than just some life lesson in mythology. Where you might want to start is with God's attributes and character and ask yourself why He would allow this. The temptation is to impose our morality on God instead of starting from the place of His rightness....that is when we miss the wonderful things this account reveals. My two cent and probably what it is worth. Be wary of knee-jerk responses and answers that easily dismiss the majesty of God.

Well, then, stop doing it. You say Paul was divorced, yet scripture never mentions Paul was divorced. He could have been widowed. We are not even 100% sure he had to be married and YES I know his resume and that he was a member of the Sanhedrin. However, we may not know all the particulars of Paul's experience with the Sanhedrin. We do know he had a nephew and a sister because scripture tells us plainly. All Paul is saying here in this passage is that he could be married if he wanted to....why is that so difficult to see as it is fairly plain and straight forward. This passage has nothing to do with womanizing..... Might I gently point out that Jesus also traveled with women and some of them actually financially supported Him. Jesus was accused of all kinds of nefarious things.....as was Paul....and we are free to think what we will, but I think what we read into scripture speaks more to our own character . I may be accused of being to doctrinal here, but I just hope you reconsider your interpretation and maybe better bible tools and teachers could help.

I think one really has to read into the scriptures with a skewed reasoning to deduce Paul might have been a womanizer and although it is true all of us are sinners....Paul did say he had lived in a clean conscience before God and all the Church. I agree with Skyrider when he says "WOW" really just wow. I am gobsmacked. I would say that kind of reading of scripture reveals more about the person who puts it forth than it does the Apostle Paul. Impugn Paul's character so VP doesn't look so bad in comparison? Paul in all likely hood gave his life for the gospel and he was who Jesus hand selected to basically finish His ministry. Carry on.

I don't know....I don't excuse or forgive their behavior.....I don't actually believe that is sound. Their behavior is wrong and wrong on a deeply insidious level. Wrong is wrong and they are not my brothers or sisters or "Uncles" who have come to me and repented. I don't think their behavior has or will harm my heart as long as I understand right from wrong. But, if forgiveness is about therapeutic relief for a confused heart ..... yeah that is self-centered. Were not talking about a passing transgression but about people who lead others to destruction....if scripture is to be believed. Yeah, I think that is wrong and I don't think that makes me bitter......forgiveness requires repentance and repentance means change.

When this topic pops up here it usually leaves me scratching my head in wonder and a little confused.....if it is a biblical perspective people are after they should consider the biblical responses in scripture to the false teachers of the day. There is some seriously harsh and damming language and I guess we could could accuse Peter, Paul, Jude and others of being bitter or we could consider scripture unforgiving. False teachers are people actively working to separate people from Jesus Christ. Leave them alone. That is what the bible tells us. Minimizing who they are and what they do...is sinful. As far as forgiving being for our own hearts and mental well being.....hmm, self-centered, self-concerned and self-focused forgiveness.....well, that is an interesting perspective.

I am sorry you feel jumped on, but I don't believe that is anyone's intent or anyone here wants to make you feel bad......if I have....I am truly sorry. It is great that you can check an experts work, especially in things like Greek translations of scripture as it is a very nuanced and difficult language.....but I do not have that kind of training. I can't claim that. All I can do is learn as I go while being aware of my limitations. I think you would agree that there is nothing wrong with learning and then applying that knowledge to study. Being aware of common exegetical mistakes made in word studies is only helpful IMO. I had to learn about them from someone who has mastered the language and was willing to teach me. Several someones. Without learning them I would keep making the same mistakes and keep getting the same flawed results. I also wouldn't be able to tell when others make those same mistakes. Now I can. I didn't know it got better than sound judgement, but......good for you. The truth is.... I don't actually always apply sound judgement......that is an over statement. That I try to use sound judgement is probably more accurate. I am sure I miss the mark sometimes. I am very aware of the temptations that come with authority, but I also believe that there are people genuinely serving the Lord ...what that really means. I love the precious things that come along with that and I am not ashamed to say that. Most of the good teachers around also teach or are retired from teaching in University, but we get the benefit too......we are very blessed to have access to all that we do. What do they get for their trouble? More strict judgment. I got burned in a cult but I hope I learned from that.....just because I once gave over authority and power to someone who claimed to be an expert doesn't mean I will keep making the same mistake. Learning something from someone doesn't equal blind obedience and Christians are....admitted sinners. We are the first ones to raise our hands. If I wait for the perfect teacher I am going to have a long wait. There is only one of those and He set it up as He saw fit. None of how I approach things is meant to be an insult to you. I don't get any kind of payoff in arguing with you. I hope you continue to contribute....you have much to offer but please consider that I try to share what I think is important. . . .

I am not sure how this little side topic became controversial .....but, it is probably in the same way my post was translated into bible study is wrong and leaning on experts is akin to blindly following a leader. I would hope that we have had some personal growth since TWI and are able to use sound judgement and discernment in our association to teachers. I assume most of us know that there is more to bible study than word studies. Lexicon's, an interlinear, concordance and most bible dictionaries are great tools when used correctly,(for many, Kittle is to be avoided) but there are several exegetical fallacies commonly committed in word studies. I guess we would have to actually listen to an expert to learn about them and avoid them.....but, when done correctly word studies are fine. Our practice and hubris in TWI was problematic and word studies can be limiting, narrow, and can produce an infantile exegesis. It can end up being eisegesis. I am sure we can all think of a few examples...... especially from our waydaze. How is expanding an approach to scripture and understanding personal limitations in dealing with languages considered a reason for argument?

I hear ya.... Scripture is full of concepts....and concepts convey meaning....and concepts are not usually found in single words. Most words themselves have no theological meaning assigned to them.....it is how they are used and in what context that conveys the meaning to us. Language often has more than one way to convey the same meaning, but subtle nuances can change the meaning within a certain context. Treating individual words as concepts can be limiting. Assigning individual words theological meaning can be misleading IMO. What do I know? I need people trained in a language to translate it for me and I don't consider word studies as "working" with biblical languages.

Well, if I used the Hebrew my lame attempt at irony would be lost wouldn't it? I was making a point about taking one word and assigning it a specific meaning. It would be arrogant in the extreme for me to think I could work with the Greek or the Hebrew as I have very little training in either language. These languages are too nuanced for the novice. It took me five years to learn enough French to be considered fluent and still no one was going to hire me as a translator as I still had not mastered the language. One class a semester did not make me an expert. Despite our practice and hubris in TWI, searching out single Greek words and trying to define scripture by dictionary definition is not the way to make scripture speak deep meaning to us.....that is why those literal according to usage were often infantile and narrow. Many of them were a defined by a theology, not the language IMO. I leave the translating and the nuance to the experts.....I have figured out who to listen to in such cases. Thanks for the advice though.......

Since Poythress is being discussed I thought I would post this critique.... http://teampyro.blog...orta-gifts.html I am not familiar with the author, but I am very familiar with the site Pyromaniacs. If you like reading Spurgeon you have probably already visited their page. If I am remembering correctly, Phil Johnson, who contributes heavily to the site, was once caught up in the Pentecostal movement. He has since moved on and has spoken about his involvement in a moving testimony if anyone is interested in looking for that bit. I think the testimonies of deliverance from the Pentecostal movement can often be more compelling than the studies. Phil Johnson is associated with John MacArthur....who quite frankly has always unnerved me a bit. I am not a fan of John MacArthur at all. Having said that, MacArthur does do a sermon on SIT that is pretty good. I obviously don't follow him when he claims modern tongues are demonic, but he does a good job with the scriptures that deal with the OT references IMO. I held off listening to it because I really don't like his style or lecturing tone. This one isn't too bad, but really, take it for what you want. He actually confirms what I am starting to see in scripture, but I am not endorsing John MacArthur, just offering it for consideration. I have not really commented on Poythress but I am familiar with him. He is a respected theologian, but he is often challenged on this particular topic and exegesis....I can't understand why he handles the scriptures the way he does on the topic of SIT. However, that is not how he approaches other topics and he has some interesting perspectives and teachings. He is one of the good guys IMO. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GVSLc0cqlZM" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe> <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rMWD5mWxMSo" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe> <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3mBKzQN8RS4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

Phileo and agape can often be used interchangeably.......Amnon's relationship with his sister Tamar .... incestuous relationship. . . . is considered agape love. Guess we wouldn't want to encourage that operation of it.

One way to tell if interpretation or prophecy via TWI was fake is if it contradicted the written word. Although I can't go back and listen again.....given our stilted theology....some of it probably was blatantly false. Just a guess. We already have the written word and much of what was brought forth was simply reworded scripture. I don't need someone to tell me something I can go to scripture and read. I miss the point there a bit....but I suppose one could argue it was meant to edify. In Acts, when people heard the wonderful works of God it was followed by a dramatic change and people were added to the church. As new kinds of people were added, tongues were there as a sign. Who needed a sign that the dynamic had changed? A confirmation. Israel. Which is why I suspect, Paul, tells the Corinthians to grow up....tongues are for a sign. He then gives a reference to the Old Testament account that relates why God chose tongues in the first place. It was as a judgment for Israel. This is why they were falling on their faces....they were not only being enlightened, but convicted. God was speaking to them in other tongues. In the OT account Israel was enslaved by a people they couldn't understand. That was a big deal and that was a judgement from God. SIT also implies judgement. With men of other lips and other tongues......it is not an all love you bless you thing. It is a serious message from God to a particular people. Just a side thought....when Jesus started speaking in parables it was after the healing and many miracles, teachings and public displays. They still were trying to kill Him, so He said....fine, I am only speaking in parables and in doing so He was confounding them and hiding His message. He explained Himself to those who would listen and hear. The Corinthians were lost and Paul was trying to bring them back to reality. The more we start to examine the purpose of SIT the clearer Paul's words become IMO. It is fascinating stuff.

I have been known to drop the F bomb occasionally....sometimes it just says it all I don't think I look like a hyena......a cougar maybe. Hyena? Nah

Okay, I just went back and reread and now that I have stopped laughing I have to say.... Ya Raf, prove you were faking it and that you were not accidentally displaying the dynamic and life altering power and presence of All Mighty God....you know how that Holy Spirit can just sneak up on you when you least expect it. After all, it must be so difficult to distinguish the reality of God's power and faking it? WTF?

How about we call it "scat" because it is a process similar to scat singing? Wind across the vocal chords. . . . . . wait someone already coined the term scat and we all understand what it means. Pig Latin? Nope, someone already made up that term. Vocal exercises? Nope...taken. Dang...what do you call fake SIT? Gibberish? Works for me as it is already a word and we know what it means. Hold the phone.....I know I am the blond among us here, but how does coining a new term refute the reality of an innate human ability behind what we have chosen to coin free vocalization? Someone help me....I am confused. Seriously....this thread makes my head ache with some of the logic here. Speaking of actors making up a language....I was watching The Fifth Element the other day....well, I had it on in the background as I was finishing a project....and Milla Jovoich did a nice job in creating a fake language. She kept it to a 400 word vocabulary and practiced speaking what they coined "the divine language". Sounds better than my SIT ever did. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/j8WLYzA0lCs" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

I hope this little girl didn't ask for a scorpion! This too must be the genuine article. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L3lTPtaDSDQ" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

No faking or group encouragement going on here.....must be the genuine article....as I am sure these people didn't ask for a stone. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/whpHwKlM_8M" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

I think being a a supportive and loving friend is the best possible advice....and you are so right.......we can't make decisions for others concerning their marriages. Even if advice is solicited....it makes me uncomfortable to get too involved. If someone is in danger, we can help them to organizations or women's shelters who are equipped to handle these situations. I coupon and then make care packages for the women's shelter to give to the women who arrive with nothing. Shampoo, toothpaste, formula and diapers are helpful when you come in empty handed.

We have a friend who was in a very similar situation, her hubby found a cult/church, she went along and finally it became too much for her, he cheated, she left. Many of these ultra strict cults will find a way to weave a license for sexual sin into their belief system. She had a church to return to and a built in support system with family, but it is still really hard on her. I read some of her FB posts and my heart breaks. I don't know how to counsel someone in that situation. Pregnant and vulnerable, or with small children and vulnerable......what do you say? Leave your husband or stay and suck it up and pray? This is why I hate religiosity. It always seems to end in heartache.

Really? We are going to do this again? I am just as guilty of it on this thread....and I really want to fix that. Steve, I truly and humbly seek your forgiveness for how I have related to you on this thread. It is true that I don't agree with much of your perspective, but you have every right to share your heart here without having to deal with my sarcasm and attitude. It is sinful to belittle or imply evil about your posts and doing so reveals more about me than about you. I hope that you can forgive me. I have been convicted and have asked God to forgive me. There comes a point in how we treat each other while discussing God's holy word that can constitute mocking God instead of honoring Him as we should. I crossed that line. I am sorry. ................................................................................................................................................................... There is a great deal of ego and pride swirling around this thread and topic and none of us are going to come to any kind of real understanding until we are humbled a bit before God and before each other. The wheat and the tares grow up together....God allows this. We are still required to treat the tares the same way we would the brethren, unless it becomes manifest in their hurting of others.Then you had better know and understand what you are saying to them before God. He has left it to the end to sort out. If you are convinced someone is wrong, false, or just an idiot and convinced you have the real truth.....act like it. No one who stirs up contention or insists on name calling or fault finding and then insists they are in special communion with God is going to relate that or any other claim. It just ends up a mockery.

You and WW both make a good point and lots of questions people might not want to deal with can arise from considering. There are all kinds of sincere seeking people who claim things about God in their lives. Joseph Smith claimed to have SIT and at the same time he married 14 year old girls behind his wife Emma's back. When she complained, he simply wrote into their scripture that God would destroy her if she didn't accept polygamy. Smith had over 30 wives and some of them were already married to other men when he secretly coerced them into marrying him. But. . . . he SIT. Mormon's in general, are very zealous for God and very earnest people who pray. Most will readily give their "testimony" and proclaim things true because of "a burning in their bosom". They often relate that God has proved the Mormon church is the only true church through answered prayer and their experiences with Him in their life. That God was once a man who completed eons of the "exaltation process" to become God and lives on a planet close to the planet Kolob....hardly enters the conversation. Mormons are very sincere and moral people. Many of them will tell you they were seeking for God and a Mormon missionary knocked at the door, so, it must be God answering their prayer. Taking one or two verses like scorpion for an egg or bread for a stone....ripping it from the context and the whole and applying it to what we perceive is an answered prayer is short-sighted. So is claiming because it feels right it must be from God or because such and such happened this other thing must be true. My opinion is that scripture shouldn't be read into our lives like this....we need to let it speak to us and there is context to clarify how different things are meant. The thing about the Pentecostals who are slain in the spirit or SIT with fanfare is at least they are present in the moment and showing some kind of emotion relevant to the occasion. With all the things we claimed SIT meant......doing it while driving, laundry, or in the shower and mentally disconnected seems inappropriate to such a momentous event. Praising God? Prayer? Worship? Don't these things issue from an overflowing abundant heart? Doesn't God's holy presence knock us to our knees and compel us to worship because He is God? That holiness, love, and perfection causes emotion in us.....we are designed to worship God and we find satisfaction in this. I know people say it is our spirit that was created in us communing with God.....so apparently we can be MIA during the process. Then I have to wonder.....is it special secret words God desires in praise? Does He need to be built up and edified by a secret language only He can understand? Does He need to understand mysteries and have them repeated back to Him? I thought even the stones would cry out. There are angels who sing before the throne. God will be praised not because He needs an ego stroke, but because He is God. I thought the whole point was that it was His goodness to share Himself with us and He went to extraordinary lengths to see this happen. He does give us the best and that is Him. Then He says....in order to perfectly worship me you can't understand what is being said and can be mentally and emotionally absent from the process? I don't think God needs our worship, I believe because He is so good He allows us to worship and be satisfied. The heart needs to be engaged for our benefit. God is complete and needs nothing, but He is good and allows us to be included. How are we included when we don't even know what is being said and practice our perfect prayer and praise before an All Mighty God. . while emptying the trash?