Scout Finch02

Eyes, Loved your story. So many things you described brought flashbacks to my LEAD sessions. From my own experiences and what I have heard from others, there were many people injured at LEAD through no fault of their own on many sessions over the years. Of course, TWI always blamed the victims. I applaud you for listening to your dad instead of the TWI leaders. I remember some of the ridiculous instruction they gave us. If I had listened and obeyed their instruction, I'd either be dead or missing body parts from frostbite. It seemed like LEAD evaluations were written before your session started. The Corps leaders or LEAD staff decided before you got there if you were going to get a good or bad eval. They criticized you for not finishing a climb. I finished every climb no matter how difficult and how much skin and blood I lost. Because of that, I was told I was prideful, rebellious... I did the climbs I was told to do, finished them, but was told I was rebellious. Got the "rebellion is like unto witchcraft" verse tossed at me several times. I would guess if you had finished the climb, you would have somehow been wrong for doing so. Someone had probably decided you were going to get a poor LEAD eval before you left Emporia. And as for Carree Martinxxxx, I recall her special treatment while in residence. I never had direct dealings with her, but was shocked at how they catered to her in allowing her children to stay at Emporia for extended periods of time. I know of other parents in-res who had children. Their kids were not allowed to visit for an afternoon let alone entire weekends. So much for respecter of persons. She was one of those people who was going to get a good LEAD eval if she never did a climb, had someone else carry her pack and sat back at the fire eating bonbons all day. She is the only person I have ever heard of who got a shower while on a LEAD session. WTF...

I looked at John's fee schedule on his site and find it very inexpensive compared to what my therapist charges. Insurance pays a large portion of the $120 per hour my therapist charges. John's top fee for someone making a very good income is only $85 and less for people of lower incomes. It seems pretty clear to me that he is sacrificing lots of income to be accessible to people who need his help. Offering a first session free is further evidence that he truly wants to help people and seems to be putting that ahead of his need for income to pay his expenses. I didn't feel the need for a therapist to move on after my TWI involvement, but I did need help in dealing with severe abuse before and after my TWI years. I am very happy with my therapist and would pay the entire $120 per hour if my insurance didn't cover it. The services of my therapist and their positive impact on my life have been a very good investment in myself. I guess that would make me a satisfied customer in consumer terms. Thank you, John for your good work in helping people - especially the sacrifices you make to be accessible to more of the people who need your expertise.

I remember the W being there in the '80s and heard it had to do with the state college in Gunnison called Western State.

Not certain that it is a red herring, but am far from certain that it is not. I remember hearing John Lynn's description of VP's Gartmore friend's behavior 20 years ago and thought "what a frightening man". Ralph D's described Gartmore Man's behavior during POP era on the radio interview posted somewhere on this site. His description was very similar to JAL's. In my opinion, it makes the whole cancer cause of death less of a forgone conclusion than it would have been. Things sometimes aren't as clearcut as we want them to be or as some may have wanted them to appear.

Or maybe the cancer - whether eye or liver - was not the cause of his death. Maybe it was just present and he died of something else entirely. The death certificate lists cancer as the cause of death, but maybe that was an easy answer to get the paper work done and move on to the next body since it was well known that VP had liver cancer. I was around HQ and occasionally saw VP the last few months of his life. I thought there were a few things that didn't add up: I heard, first hand, a member of VP's immediate family say she didn't believe he died of liver cancer, that according to his doctors, he should have lived at least another year or two. She was fairly adamant about it. I don't claim to be an oncologist, just stating what I heard and found very odd at the time considering events that occurred immediately before VPs death (i.e. Gartmore trip and VP's Gartmore friend's reports of VP'S energy level, etc) Most people I have seen in the last days of their life before succumbing to cancer are very, very thin compared to their former selves. I have lost my mother, her sister and her brother to cancer. All were skeletal by the time they died. They had stopped eating all together a couple of weeks before they died. I saw VP several times within a few months of his death and the night before he left for Gartmore which would have been a couple of weeks before he died. He didn't appear to have lost much if any weight. In POP, VP's Gartmore friend mentions how he cooked for VP and that it was a very demanding task - that he was the only one in the land that was up to doing the job. If VP wasn't eating, how could it be such an overwhelming chore to cook for him? A couple of weeks before he died, VP felt well enough to travel to Gartmore. I heard a Wierwille family member speak of phone calls from VP's Gartmore friend during VPs visit to Gartmore. That person said that VP was very active and was "running him (VP's Gartmore friend) ragged". Seems odd that a person on the verge of death from cancer would have enough energy and strength to take on international travel and "run ragged" a much younger man. VP landing in Boston on his return from Gartmore was the beginning of his end. I heard from HQ staff and Wierwille family members that VP was too ill to fly from Boston to an airport near New Knoxville and that his motorcoach had to be sent from HQ to Boston to pick him up and bring him back. He never got off his motorcoach from what I heard. They just parked it in the "courtyard" by the Wierwille home and the death vigil began. People went in to look at him or watch him die. From what I recall, it was several days or a week or more of drama... waiting for the MOG to die. Maybe he did die of cancer, maybe not. I don't know, but his death "from cancer" was very, very different from the cancer deaths of family members and others I have seen or read about. Combining those inconsistencies with a visit to a man (who cleared out the kitchen of all the incompetent staff so he alone could prepare food fit for the "king") who may have believed he had something to gain from VP's death seems to make the death from cancer conclusion less matter of fact. A guy has liver cancer, his liver is not at the top of its game for filtering out poisons. This other guy wants to be the only one that cooks for him the last week or so of his life. A year later, this same other guy does other things that look like the actions of a guy that wants to take over an organization. I am not accusing anyone of anything, just continuing to wonder... in writing... what I have wondered about for the last 20 + years. Didn't mean to derail...just throwing out some other happenings from the spring of '85 that weren't previously mentioned. Carry on with the eye vs. liver discussion.

"Huh, that's odd. I get to where I'd like the committed relationship, but don't much care for the physical part so much anymore. Hell, you can find sex anywhere, if you really want it. If all else fails, you can always buy it, if you get too ugly." ...Well, maybe that is still one of the differences between men and women (or maybe just different people) as they stroll into middle age - I would not be interested in sex without attraction. I can only think of two men I have been attracted to in the last ten years. One is a very good friend who doesn't believe in sex outside of marriage - rules that one out for me. The other was one of my direct reports at work - didn't want to end up in HR, so no action there either. Having to choose between life getting complicated and celibacy, I will stick with celibacy. Maybe it boils down to personality type. I have always been comfortable being alone. I guess if I liked being alone when I was younger, it is logical that I might still like being alone when I am middle aged. If people don't like being alone when they are young, they are probably going to prefer company as they grow older. Different folks, different strokes. Geo, I am very sorry about the death of your friend. I sincerely hope you can find peace and comfort. And I also hope you can return to a place where you will find life exhilarating and worth the occasional heartbreaks. In my experience, that can happen with or without religion. Hope is not exclusive to religion.

Dot, That was so beautiful.... You expressed fractured relationships so precisely and in a way that makes them easier (for me, anyway) to accept and understand. I hope you can keep writing. I would love to read more of your insights on life's changes, surprises, tragedies, triumphs. Peace and comfort to you.

"After leaving TWI, I had time to think about me and what my beliefs were. I had time to find my ownself and figure out what I wanted in my life, and what kind of person I wanted be post-cult." From Notta "Kinda makes me wonder if maybe women really don't like being married all that much once they really get a taste of it. It turns into just another goddammed job. That would explain all the women who seem to take off once the kids are grown." From Geo I pondered the quotes above for awhile in the context of my life. It did take a few years of being away from TWI and religion in general to get to the core of who I was and had always been. I think I suspended who I really was because I tried to accept TWI's doctrine of being the religious wife/mother who lives for everyone else. The mother part never happened for me, but after a number of years I could no longer suppress the indepent, free thinking me that could not co-exist with the wife / servant role. So there were no children growing up and leaving that triggered my departure from the marriage, I was just tired of trying to be someone who I was not wired to be. The Judeo Christian marriage model just wasn't working for me and I had finally come to know myself well enough to realize and accept it. I think that happens with a lot of women when they reach middle age and evaluate there life. Waiting for the children to grow up isn't necessarily the trigger. I very much need time alone, but I also enjoy the companionship of different types of people. I love socializing and laughing with my friends, I love the technical discussions I have with my genius friend, Lefty, and I love the very deep personal conversations I have with my closest siblings and long time soulmate friends. I never feel lonely now as I often did when I was married. Since I post under a screen name and feel particularly bold right now (and this is a stream of consciousness thread after all), I will honestly and frankly say the only part of life that I feel missing at this point is good sex. I didn't have it when I was married and haven't had it since, so maybe I only think I am missing out, but I have to wonder. I don't feel strongly enough about it to consider breaking my rule of never getting married again as I don't want to mess with the part of my life that is working. Maybe women get more like men as they age. I wouldn't mind the physical relationship but don't want the emotional entanglement of a committed relationship. I think I would be the one that just wanted good sex but wouldn't want to be around for breakfast in the morning. OK.... Will have to see how long I leave this post before feeling too exposed and deleting half of it.

I found out I have that valve defect about 16 years ago. Here's what I was told: Don't gain weight becasue of the additional strain on the heart, Be more vigilant about cholesterol levels and keep them low. I take fish oil religiously. Be aware of continued fatigue and let doc know because valve may be leaking and need replacement, Get antibiotics before dental appointments. My dentist told me that the guidelines have changed and that I don't need to get antibiotics before dental visits, but my doctor doesn't agree and continues to prescribe them. I will keep up with the antibiotics until doc tells me otherwise. I was told I would probably need to get the valve replaced when I am in my 60s. They replace the valve with the valve from a pig's heart, I hear. I'll be 51 in a few months and haven't noticed any fatique symptoms yet and only think about the defect when I get the antibiotics for dental appointments. Your son is lucky that he has someone who cares so much and will take care of him. Chances are he'll be just fine.

Do men have their version of the Red Hat Society? I have a group of middle aged happily single women. The core group is five of us. We range in age from 44 to 55. We get together at least once a month, have a Christmas get to-gether, celebrate our birthdays together, have play dates for our dogs and do some volunteer work together according to our interests. We joke about being our own Red Hat Society, but since we are all very committment phobic, we have never gotten around to officially signing up for a local chapter. They threw me a 50th birthday and gave me a red hat, but it was more of a joke than anything. We help each other when any of us need the help. One of our group is job hunting so we are all networking on her behalf. Another needs to find a new apartment because her neighborhood has gotten too dangerous. We are all checking with people we know, work newsletter want ads and other sources. When my mom died a couple of years ago, they sent flowers to the funeral. We have had lots of fun over the years and many great memories. My very close friend, Lefty, is a man and he attends the larger get-to-gethers where other male friends and family show up. He was the one that kept my 50th birthday party with the a surprise and got me there without giving away the surprise. The other ladies also have platonic male friends, enjoy male company. For some reason none of us have the attention span or the energy to keep up a romantic relationship with men. Our group began with two of us who met through volunteer work. Another person joined us from that volunteer sector. Then one co-worker after another joined the group. We all have different talents and skills. I am very grateful for the fashion maven who helps me shop when I need new clothes. Same for the wine and food connoisseur and the travel experts. I fix stuff. Maybe it is easier for women because we form relationships more naturally? I don't know...... But it makes life so much richer, happier and easier to build our own little subculture and invite the coupled humans to our parties and get-togethers. SOmetimes they just invite themselves just because they like to hang out with us... because we are happy and it tends to be contagious. Just something that has worked for me.... no judging.... not advising..... not trying to fix anybody....just streaming the consciousness of the moment.... Have to sign off and go to the grocery story to get something for supper. Maybe I'll just get pie.... because I want to and I can. Tee hee.

My sister and I were discussing the musician Amy Winehouse recently. Baby sister loves Amy's music and voice. I had heard that Amy had an amazing voice, but never listened to her music. We listened to one of her songs and I agreed that she does have an incredible voice, but commented that it is sad that she is so bent on destroying herself and heading to a premature death. Baby sis asked me why I thought it was sad? Why I did I see it as sad that a person exercises their right to spend their life as they choose even if that means shortening their life? I guess that's why I love spending time with Baby sis. We discuss things that challenge us, make us rethink what we have blindly accepted, try on different perspectives, admit that there are other ways of facing life than the conventional, that we are not all carbon copies of the Ward and June Cleaver prototype. Does one person have the right to attempt to modify the course of another person's destiny? Does a larger community have a vested interest in keeping everyone alive to a ripe old age no matter the emotional cost to the individual? I don't know and don't expect to ever know. But I still feel concern for a person until I find assurance that they are not in excruciating pain being tormented by losses or sadness. I feel a compulsion to find a way to respond to the person. Do I risk intrusion into a person's privacy? Do I violate my belief that each person is a sovreign entity with the inalienable right to choose and control their own destiny? Do I step outside the comfort zone of my stereotypical middle aged spinster script? Who do I pose these questions to that is going to give me a nice pat answer that will usher me squarely back into my comfortable unchallenged existence? I guess that is one of the comforts of having left the group think cult compound twenty years ago where I thought I had to have a "positive" (?) and definitive answer to every one of life's hard questions/discussions. I guess that is one of the discomforts of having left the group think cult compound twenty years ago where I thought I would find a definitive answer to every one of life's hard questions/discusssions. Geo, Don't mean to infringe on your stream of consciousness thread. Feel free to tell me to go start my own. It's just that this is the most engaging and intriguing topic I have found here in awhile and the month of January always makes me more introspective.

washn' wear, I have been in your shoes and know what it feels like. May you find peace and comfort.

I had this happen to me a few years ago with a different national magazine. I didn't even bother acknowledging that I received it. I just pitched it in the trash. They would have to produce something with my signature to prove that I had requested it if I was going to bother with them. Why should I waste my time? They called me once, I told them I hadn't ordered anything and didn't get anything. Never heard from them again.

....and Linda, Amen for choosing the pet over the human. I have done the same and glad I did. My animals are always there for me. Humans... not so much. I have had friends and family members who have done the same and all were thankful to their pet for saving them wasted time and heartache on someone who wasn't right for them.

That is a heart wrenching piece but so true. I have gotten all of my pets at animal shelters and have volunteered over the years to rescue and re-home abandon animals. It is heartbreaking but rewarding work. I am so grateful for people like you who work so tirelessly to save animals and keep the issue in front of people. I admire your energy and committment. I have had to take a break from volunteering for health reasons, but love my old dogs and young cat who I have made a lifetime committment to -their lifetime, not mine- I recently redid my will and provided for their continued care when I am gone. So I will set my soapbox up next to yours for a second and ask everyone to consider making provisions for your animals after you are gone. Don't just hope your family will take care of the animals, set aside money to put in a trust for them and name a guardian and trustee. My attorney had me state a sum that would provide a very comfortable life for my animals, name a caretaker for my animals and name a trustee of the funds. Now I know that I don't need to worry about my loyal friends after I am gone or leave the burden on my family to figure out what to do with my animals. OK. I put my soapbox away. Thanks, Dot. I love you and so do my fur kids.