Twinky

Wow, never heard that one before. I'm stuffed then.

What if you never had the perspective of what genuinely helps people? Then you never had "the truth" to start with! What if you had that perspective, but allowed it to slip away? What is "genuine help!" If what you "help" people with helps them into despair, poverty, sexual abuse; breaks up marriages instead of strengthening them; beats children instead of looking after them tenderly, as a nursing mother; destroys family relationships of all kinds (not allowed to family weddings - though allowed to funerals), can't spend time alone with your own family (have to be two by two); causes people to commit suicide and engage in risky behavior with inadequate supports? And so on. What if the help erodes moral and mental boundaries, causes the standards that are generally accepted by the population to be attacked at their root? Like respect for other people's family lives, property, and personal privacy? For sure - help people to overcome obstacles in their lives, deal with inappropriate behavior etc. For sure, teach them that God wants them free and living in the abundance of his love -but don't then ensure that their only freedom is to parrot Bible verses without understanding the very context of those verses. Don't help people to become abusers, rapists and bullies. Don't help them to become incompetent morons who have lost the ability to think for themselves. Don't help them into such low self-esteem. Woe to those that call bondage "freedom" and captivity "abundance." Is "help" one of those Way-words that has acquired a meaning completely opposite to what the normal populace understands?

Yeah, I hear ya, Oakspear. I thought it was creepy too. Especially since he was DEAD by the time I'd got involved. I also thought his self-appointed title The Teacher was creepy if not to say megalo. But I rationalised that to think that he meant a research or communications dept. I wonder if anybody actually did "write The Teacher..." and got any sensible sort of answer? I know a good many respectable clergymen nowadays and they are ALL referred to by their first names. Occasionally the might be referred to as (say) Bishop Peter, because Peter as a name is not uncommon and to add his designation of bishop simply clarifies who's meant. And other than in highly ritualistic situations, none of the church higher-ups expects anything other than the hospitality that would naturally be extended to a visitor or guest.

On another site, someone posted about attending a Geerite fellowship in Tennessee. So it seems as though Geer and his henchmen and his perverted teachings haven't yet sunk into oblivion. Anyway, Raf, this thread needs moving from The Way in Europe, since it's a very long time since Europe has been (dis)graced by his presence.

Lots of the things that were said weren't unique to Weirwille or anyone associated with TWI. They're what some might call "horse sense" (I think that's what VPW called it) - others might say, good common sense, or old wives' wisdom, or some such. Just cos VPW said something doesn't mean he "invented" the proverb. Just like the book of Proverbs is good common sense and no doubt a collection of sayings and ways of thinking that were common enough at the time - relevant then AND now.

Thank God, there are no Wayfers around here that might remind me of what anyone at that place said or did. I agree with you about it sounding a bit sinister. And juvenile, as though those saying it still haven't begun to grow up and think for themselves. But it's a common enough expression... "It's like..." So, where do you start unpicking it? You could startle people by saying, "It's like - that means it isn't..." As in: "It's like Dr W said...." " Ah, it's only like - it's not what he said/did, which was..." "It's like HA said...." " Ah, it's only like - but this is the real deal." Or, "It's not like anything he did, but it is like what my Mom/my teacher/the preacher at church did..." Or, "It's like Dr W did." "Oh, you mean, lied, stole, deceived, coveted money, attacked women, died..." (choose your event) Or simply, "So what?" - or "So what? even HA said sensible things once in a while. Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day; you just don't know when."

I am not reading that, you meanie, Raf.

Yeah, Raf, I know someone will try (WW probably). If anyone does, please preface with a warning. Better yet, link to some page elsewhere so that those who don't want to be reminded don't have to look.

That is a good point, TLC. Especially when we were discouraged from reading the gospels (being as they weren't written to us) except for the select bits in PFAL.

Spec - if you want to know a bit more about grace, try a read of Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace?" or Swindoll's "The Grace Awakening." Both are a jolly sight more "accessible" than PFAL.

I think WW is right, one of the supposed benefits was "rest to the soul." Isn't is also supposed to build you up in the inner man? And several other supposed benefits? Haven't thought of these in years and please, nobody remind me by posting here!!! :evilshades:/>

What I know: 1. As a little kid of say 7-9 years old, I'd often spend time "talking in foreign languages" - now whether this was gibberish or SIT I couldn't say. I'd been to Sunday school and loved Jesus in my kiddie way. I'd never heard of SIT as far as I'm aware. As I got older, I made up tunes for the made-up words but didn't spend a lot of time doing either. 2. When I was invited to twig and people SIT/TIP, I actually didn't pay much attention as a "gift from God" or whatever; more, it was, Oh, so other people do this too. 3. Way after TWI, at the church I used to go to and the one I now attend (a "daughter church") (where nobody has ever heard of TWI) at times people just sing quietly in tongues. That freaked me out at first (Waydaze) but it's actually quite musical and pleasant - and a "respectful" and peaceful sound. The people so doing clearly believe they are SIT or whatever they want to call it. 4. Other Christians who I have come to know (from a wide variety of backgrounds and churches) will, alongside someone praying in English or after they themselves have prayed for someone in English - they will very quietly make sounds that are not English; they may say they are "praying in the spirit" or "talking in tongues;" Wayfers would call it SIT. Although I've never heard SIT taught in church (by any name), it's not uncommonly known. How people are supposed to know or learn I have no idea. Nobody seems to either ask or answer that question. But it is widely accepted that some (at least) do do this thing and it's not thought odd or out of order or discouraged. I think some believe it is a special gift that you either get, or don't. I know one elderly woman who dearly wanted to SIT but "hadn't been given the gift" - but both her daughters (who by this time went to different churches) did. They were all escapees from the Exclusive Brethren, which is about as weird as TWI; I doubt they learned about SIT there. None of this makes SIT real or fake - it does mean that there is a huge number of people out there who have been duped, if it's fake. And it would also mean it's a widespread fake across many denominations. Oh, and by the way: I have NEVER encountered any group that "manifests" by SIT/TIP. People who "have a message" are much more circumspect in how they present it or offer it to the congregation.

Hiliarious, Spec. Love the Plagiarize song. Don't often laugh out loud, but that one gave me a real belly-laugh.

And perhaps that's one of the reasons we are as Crhistians encouraged to meet together. So that we can learn from the "pockets of truth" that others have; so that we can see how God is at work in someone else or in some situation; to help us get a bigger picture. Spend enough time with Christians from other denominations or backgrounds, and you'll see common threads in how they feel God talks to them or shows them things, or works in situations. God is bigger than one person, one book, one denomination, one culture. It might not be a bad idea to think about your neighbor, the person next to you in the pew, the colleague at the next desk - and think (with meekness), how does God work in this person's life, and how can I learn from him? This person has Christ in her (the hope of glory); how does that "Christ" serve the world in her life?

Psalms 2:4 isn't about God having a sense of humor at all. It's about God scorning (or scoffing at) the machinations of his enemies. Off topic to this thread: God really does have a sense of humor, but it's more of what you might call good harmless fun. Stuff that allows a kindly chuckle, rather than a searing put-down. (I doubt that's changed, through any "dispensational" period.)

Plagiarism is theft. Intellectual property theft. Theft of ideas. Theft of "work product," as you Americans might say. A sculptor sculpts. Suppose the sculptor makes a beautiful marble statue. An artist paints. Suppose the artist makes a painting, a watercolor of ... his horse, say. Somebody without permission takes the statue or the watercolor away - it's easy to see that as theft. An inventor invents. Devises new ways of doing things. New methods. That's why he patents his ideas, his device, his formula. Because then if anyone uses his ideas without permission - it's theft. An author writes. Suppose the author writes a novel. Or even the factual history of widget manufacture. The writing then becomes copyright. And the right to copy remains with the author, who can grant or withhold permission to make copies or use the material. Somebody without permission takes the words away. It's still theft. And we fell for it. We fell for a load of lies. Peddled by a bunch of thieves. All that came before Jesus were thieves and robbers - as are some of those who've come after him. And we, all Wayfers, are in receipt of stolen property :blink:/>

Oh Sunesis, I so hear you. I'm still wrestling with this myself. I have a "God-concept" but not really a "Jesus concept" or "Christ concept" and wonder about this "relationship with Christ." I have a relationship, sure, but not as fully as some appear to have. It's more like having a relative that you see occasionally (or rarely) - you know they're there and where they fit in your life (like your uncle in another city, say) but the closeness that you might see between siblings or cousins or people who have grown up together and know each other well ... isn't there. Not sure what to do about that.

:offtopic:/> Sunesis, how nice to see you here again after a very long absence.

Not so much FWFs, more leaders who don't care about their people and bilk them for all they can get. Greedy church leaders. Corrupt politicians and pundits too, maybe.

Maybe this? “As for the prophets who lead my people astray, they proclaim ‘peace’ if they have something to eat, but prepare to wage war against anyone who refuses to feed them. 6 Therefore night will come over you, without visions, and darkness, without divination. The sun will set for the prophets, and the day will go dark for them. 7 The seers will be ashamed and the diviners disgraced. They will all cover their faces because there is no answer from God.” (Micah 3:5-7, whole chapter is worth reading) The sun's just set for them...permanently, one hopes. The teachers, the prophets, the ... not on the evangelists, pastors or apostles seeing as there were none.

Skyrider found this thread. It would be nice if Angie had found her brother. Does anyone have an update? I bet dmiller never got a response from the "area coordinators" to his enquiry, either.

Allan, what's he got to say? He was so busy climbing the greasy pole that I'm surprised he had time to notice there was anything wrong. He should come here and find out more than he ever wanted to know. "Wrong" - and he's still an innie? (The fool) Presumably then his wife is with him in this book venture.

And how they know that we know nothing fresh. Nobody coming forward to say how things really are now in TWI, no fresh revelations of Rosie's own sins of leadership. Perhaps they think they have plugged all the leaks. Or perhaps the remainder of Wayfers are so stupefied that they can't post to save their lives.

Okay, Steve, take it away to Doctrinal. I always enjoy your posts. They give me something to think about. The make a lot more bloody sense than PFAL!

Now WordWolf... How do you know dem dere rocks ain't alive? And if dey's alive dey can t'ink. Dey just t'ink at a much slower rate cos dey live at a slower rate. Just plain silly, anyone?