Twinky

Excellent post, Penworks. It seems to me that not only can we change as we grow older, but that we should change. When one is 5 years old, parents and other adults give information and instructions. As one ages, that information and instruction may change. And as the information and instruction changes, it ought to change the shape of each individual. The five year old gains understanding and wisdom. Becomes able to make its own decisions, give itself "instructions." That growing and ability to make decisions is called maturity but does it have a finite point? We know only in part - and that will remain so all our lives. And so we are never fully mature, all our lives. Just more mature than we were a few years earlier (perhaps). Do you still believe and act as you did when you were five years old? Few adults do. If you went to tertiary education or professional training, do you still think the same as you did before? Or do you have more wisdom to make decisions? Are you better able to foresee possible outcomes? Yes, you changed! You don't think as you did, when you were a child. Have crises affected your life - maybe the death of a loved one with whom you'd been very close? Maybe a severe accident (they're not called "life-changing injuries" for nothing!)? Yes, you changed! You learned to adapt to the new circumstances. Your underlying personality probably never changes; it's how you express that personality. And what you take into account. What you allow to affect you. How you deal with things. We are not set in stone. We are not required to have hearts of stone - in fact, quite the opposite. We are required to change - to be transformed - to become different people. And yet, remain true to ourselves. And to our God (if we have one!). We should embrace the opportunity to grow and change. It's exciting.

I think that almost qualifies as a "Grease Spot Gem."

Apologies, it looked right when I posted it but re-reading makes it less than logical. Thanks, Modcat. It did feel like I was about to become victim to some of DWBH's ire. I don't like the way he shouts and calls people names; he knows this. Anger at some of he higher-ups I can understand; anger at other posters is out of order. If people shout, I just smile and back off... don't re-engage. I have to say, I'm getting really fed up with the bickering here at the Cafe. Maybe I will just back off... for a long while... I only stay because I hope that a calm and rational voice might be appreciated by some.

You know, if you wanted dto post this on the Doctrinal thread I referred to, it might be helpful to some people: I think that could add something to the discussion there. If you want to post that, I'll reply to it there.

I have no PoV about this, DWBH. Yes, 7 post is deathly silence, compared with the noise some innocuous-looking topics provoke. I don't know what you mean by "if the shoe fits." Do you mean anything? (Rhetorical: no need to answer that)

I started a thread on that in Doctrinal. There's a lot of heated souting about differences, but when I asked the question - there was a deathly silence.

Outie, that's the trouble when DWBH posts his daft names for people. He means Don Weirwille.

Well, sort of, WW, but not quite. It has to be: "Thy will be done" first and foremost. Then, the truly humble, meek, "I'll do thy will" - or maybe, "I will do THY will" as an emphatic statement of personal intention to submit.

My word, I just noticed that I have been supping the coffee in the Cafe for just over 10 years. And I have come a bloody long way in ten years. Thanks in no small way, especially initially, to the Cafe patrons, without whom I'd still be wallowing in Waybrain. And thanks also to the community of Christians at my local church, the one that healed me enormously from Waybrain. And also to the community of Christians in the churches I now attend (one of which is a "daughter church" to the first one). Life is GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!:dance:/>

It may be time to move to another church, Tom... or it may not. You will probably find that most churches have some degree of "error" (especially if you look through TWI-stained glasses). If nothing else, pretty much all churches will be trinitarian and promote the "Jesus is God" doctrine. Look at the overall balance of what they teach; can you live with what you believe is doctrinally "off"? What's their response if you raise any queries (meekly, of course!)? How do the people treat each other, and what outreach do they have (genuine outreach and interest in helping community)? For myself, I attend two different churches regularly. I enjoy the fellowship of others in both. I say a silent "don't think so" at some points, and won't sing all the words of hymns, but I don't raise problems. I see what things the individuals do and how they give their lives; I'm thankful to be a part of such awesome generosity of heart and time - and money. One of the groups to which I belong (Street Pastors) comprises Christians from a minimum of four different churches (denominations) and when we are out serving the people of our community, we speak of things we have in common - the things that unite us - not the things we disagree about. There are fundamental points that you can agree, one hopes, with any Christian - does any congregation you might join live those fundamental points? If not - it really is time to move on.

Tom, how does your preacher-man get on with Heb 4:12, where a clear distinction is made? 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and* spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Soul/spirit Joints/ marrow Thoughts/ intent All very very close - but not identical, not the same thing, not interchangeable.

I don't know why this would be a bad thing for the US. I think it could only benefit. Here's a better article: TPP - Wikipedia It's nice for the USA that the USA has been invited to participate in this Pacific Rim arrangement, which has been something the countries from New Zealand to Japan have been keen on for a long time. From the point of view of smaller nations (like NZ) I'm not so sure it's a good thing, but those countries seem to think so.

I've been looking at some of these letters at random. Jeepers, the whiny tone of the letter of Dec 28, 1981. And the duplicity. About love of money, two-drink limit, and sexual addiction. Barf!!

DWBH, the problem for me with some of your posts is that in TWI we got so used to bile and vile spewings and name-calling that when someone starts up with this line of speech, it moves me (at least) into "closed ears" position. It washes over me and just leaves me feeling annoyed, and disappointed at the person yelling. So I miss whatever pearls there might be. That's whether it's someone physically shouting, or "shouting" via written material. The shouting makes it seem too personal - an "I don't like you" kids' name-calling. Whereas Charlene, for example, has a more dispassionate (ie, detached, not that she's not passionate!) approach. She can be just as excoriating, but does it quietly and very pointedly: no name-calling but lots of facts. And I "pin back my ears" to hear what she has to say. You have a lot to say and to share about the inner workings of TWI. A calmer, more reasonable, factual, approach just might get you heard more, by some people who lurk and post here. Be quietly deadly. It's more painful Revenge, as the saying goes, is best served cold. Deadly cold. You can still be a clarion call, a wise warning. Heh heh.

Could be that someone just clicked on the relevant part of the poll.

Time to reap what he sowed. Prayers / thoughts / good wishes (depending on your PoV) to his victims (all of them) - it may be a very difficult time for them over the next few months while the trial is being arranged.

Let us know how it goes, BlueCord. Resist evil and it will flee from you. Resist TWI and eventually it will give up harassing you to your face. They'll just slander you both and M&A you. So you may lose the friends you think you have in TWI because if they contact you, they too will become possessed. Don't be surprised.

Rocky, the title was (given to me): "An Answer of Truth in the Face of Accusation" - basically intended I think as a word study of the word Apokrinomai and a study of the gospel of John, where this word mostly occurs, where it's usually translated: "he answered and said,,," and is frequently used where Jesus responds to the Pharisees and his other attackers. And I think LCM must have intended it as some sort of get out of jail free card - justification for his yelling or justification for his adultery or some such. But I checked the word in Septuagint, compared with use in the OT, considered lots of words in the OT esp (I think) the word Shaphat, which was the Sept-equivalent word. Looked at all usages. It took me to God's desired care that we mortals should extend to our families and extended families, personal relationships, and right living. I roamed all over all the Bible except (perhaps) Revelation, picking up first one aspect then another. It took in graciousness and forgiveness. Basically, I came to the conclusion that the "Answer of Truth in the Face of Accusation" is to be right-living, lining up one's behaviour with that desired by God, an honest-to-God lifestyle., So of course that's what I wrote. The Answer of Truth is the way we live. It's not just in the words we use (which very little of my thesis touched upon) to respond to people. When we live right, then we can speak right and answer our accusers. There is integrity behind our words when we do respond with words. It was also written in a readable but scholarly fashion, not folksy anecdotes, but tightly and forensically, and using carefully chosen words. I was a lawyer in another life; sloppy wordsmithing can lead to clients' cases failing badly, So you can see why my conclusions about the Answer went down like a lead balloon :confused:/>. And perhaps why there wasn't much in the collaterals about this !!

This is slightly off-topic. Regarding this re-search stuff, I was given a topic upon which to write my Corps paper, whatever they called it. My work on this was really enjoyable. I learned a huge amount. There was no TWI teaching that I knew of upon the wider subject, where my studies took me; I ended up rummaging all over the OT and NT and it is stuff that stays with me now. Powerful. My first draft was sent back because there weren't enough references to collaterals and other TWI material (Bible verses, note, were well quoted and all refs given). I had to go through my paper and insert refs to TWI materials - and in some cases, tweak what I'd written so as to be able to make reference to some TWI book. It added nothing; it wasn't relevant. It seems that several people read the paper (there was only ever one copy) and quite a number came back to me and said it was great stuff, they'd enjoyed reading it, it was new and interesting and should be widely shared. You suppose it was? Ha ha, think again. I never heard any aspect of it ever referred to again. 18months later I was rudely and publicly ejected from TWI. But what I learned (what God showed me) stays with me; I apply it now; I try to live by it. LCM gave me this topic, no doubt expecting something quite different from what he got; I suspect he wanted to pinch the work and use it to defend his own actions. Unfortunately, it showed him for the hypocrite, liar and adulterer that he was. Monday is going to be a very tough day for me. But I will draw strength and wisdom from what I learned in researching that paper over 20 years ago.

Too right on this. Okay to be "spiritually angry" if you were a leader especially if you were LCM. Or maybe a region coord or some such.Anybody else that might get angry ... I don't think anyone would have dared actually unless they wanted a fast ticket out.

Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could over-spiritualise this but - hey - what confidence!!!!!!!!!! The joy of simply trusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BlueCord, I wish you and your wife well on your journey out of TWI. God bless and prosper you both. At the Cafe, we're individuals with individual points of view. We are not TWI clones, all saying the same thing. Unless you are a VPW apologist (which you're not) your point of view is as valid as everyone else's. You can also expect your PoV to change over time. VPW was dead before I got involved; I suffered under Pontius Martindale. :mad2:/> For myself, when I first stumbled across this site, I was horrified, really horrified, at the things people were saying against this great ministry, TWI. How could people say such things? I was appalled at a number of levels. And yet... and yet... the stories people told had a strange coherency with my own experience. A strange ring of truth that was most disconcerting. As I continued to read here, I found that a lot of my suppressed concerns about TWI were voiced and the truth behind those concerns was articulated. I read with fascinated horror. This site is one of the places that set me free from TWI lies. Now, I enjoy exploring life with God and finding new ways to help and serve other people. Genuinely. No element of fear, or ostracism for non-compliance. I appreciate the wisdom of mature Christians from other strands of Christianity - and getting along with them without feeling I need to defend my PoV or be browbeaten by their PoV. Indeed, this very evening I've had a most interesting conversation with a deeply committed Trinitarian Christian and we can respect each others views of who Jesus Christ is (and how he came to be) and his gifts to us, and still learn from each other. You and your wife please just put your confidence in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ to guide you through what may seem strange times, and lead you to a place of peace and rest and green pasture, where you can first rebuild yourselves and your relationships, and then go out with strength wherever your path may lead. We here will help you on your spiritual journey, but no-one will tell you where to go or what to think. I'd like to extend a sincere invitation to your wife to join us and give voice to her legitimate concerns. If she doesn't want to join as a cafe resident, she can come as a lurker and just see what we talk about. If she comes in to "drink the coffee" [sign in], she's welcome to argue about anything she chooses. :drink:/>

Sounds like fabulous fun, John.

Exactly, Waysider. Who was he afraid of, anyway? Where was God's hedge of protection around him? (ah, wait: a hedge isn't bullet-proof) You know what killed that little man? It was FEAR. ...Not to mention, cancer, alcoholism, and mean spiritedness.

Welcome, BlueCord. Best wishes for a happy and healthy exit. You sound very determined and I think you will recover from Waybrain fairly quickly. You are NOT turning your back on God. You have no allegiance to a corrupt organisation, a false prophet, a fear-mongering lie machine. Whatever manipulations or threats or ill-treatment the Way throws at you, remember they did that to at least one poster here and probably more than one. Expect your name to be dragged through the mud and you will be called a possesso or maybe a homosexual or slandered in other ways. Don't get hung up on doctrine, look at what the local churches do, see how they treat you and each other, and don't be afraid to go to another if one doesn't suit you. You will find many excellent people who really walk the walk, and don't seek after their own glorification. Be open to hearing new interpretations of familiar scriptures, and consider what truth there may be in the new interpretations you're hearing. God has a rich, full, genuinely serving life ahead of you, one that is not empty or meaningless or unproductive. Enjoy exploring it. You can always bring confusion or doubt here. We've all escaped (with greater or lesser pain) and learned new ways to think, live, and enjoy life. We know it can be a strange journey you're embarking on.