Twinky

"Governments" is a choice of word made by the translators. KJV uses "higher powers" and other versions, other descriptors. The word "governments" or "powers" is this: ἐξουσίαις (exousiais) — 3 OccurrencesRomans 13:1 N-DFP GRK: Πᾶσα ψυχὴ ἐξουσίαις ὑπερεχούσαις ὑποτασσέσθω NAS: to the governing authorities. For there is no KJV: unto the higher powers. For INT: Every soul to authorities above [him] let be subject Ephesians 3:10 N-DFP GRK: καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις ἐν τοῖς NAS: to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly KJV: and powers in INT: and the authorities in the Titus 3:1 N-DFP GRK: αὐτοὺς ἀρχαῖς ἐξουσίαις ὑποτάσσεσθαι πειθαρχεῖν NAS: to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, KJV: and powers, to obey magistrates, INT: them to rulers to authorities to be subject to be obedient So, you can see that "governments" is somebody's private interpretation. Derived from "exousia" (usu tr "authority" or "power"). Now the question becomes: to which "higher powers" or "authorities" is one to be subject? The ultimate "higher power" is God himself and that is to whom we are to be subject (if we profess to be Christians - or Jewish people - can't speak for other groups!) "For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God." You have difficulty with this, Tom. Think about the many times in the OT that the Hebrews were warned that if they did not live according to the principles they'd been taught, they would be overrun by Amalekites, Assyrians or other marauding hordes? Were those oppressors "ordained by God" to show the Hebrews the error of their ways? Maybe! Who can fathom the mind of God? Remember, as a people, a nation, the Hebrews/ Israelites/ Jews were redeemed, time and time again. Tragic for the individuals (and their families) who were killed or captured; who knows how their faithfulness or otherwise might be treated - in eternity? What we do know is that the marauding hordes were all ultimately defeated, totally eradicated. Somebody mentioned on this thread the millions killed in the holocaust - but the regime that did that has come to a swift end and its successor regime, modern-day Germany, is very hot in punishing anyone exhibiting those ideas now. Pol Pot's regime has ended. So has Stalin's. Gal 5:22,23 "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" - this is what the Christian's "higher power" expects of us. And this sort of ties in with following verses of Rom 13 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." Perhaps we all need to see with longer vision. Not looking just at our short-term lives on this earth, but our lives in eternity. Looking to Jesus, "the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" - this same Jesus, subject to a cruel and barbaric set of "higher powers" in this earthly realm (both Roman and religious), and the one whose vision far exceeded the earthly life that he lived, and as a result was resurrected, and his example still exists over 2000 years later.

Okay, let's hear it then, TLC. Noting that you do reference Pentecost, are you also saying that makes no difference in the gospel that was / should be preached?

Mark, you can pet the kitty cats if you can catch them. One loves me (and only me) to fondle her - otherwise, she hides under the stairs if anyone else enters the house. Other one comes out and likes to be petted by walking under a stationary hand. Likes to be around people though. Picked her up once (by accident). Only had the silly creatures 8 years. They were born in the Cats Protection sanctuary, so I doubt they've ever been ill-treated. Yep, I think we'd have to agree that the verses you quote are both the gospel Jesus preached, and the gospel Paul preached.

Okay, guys... y'all keep saying there are a lot of differences between the gospel as preached by Jesus, and that as expounded by Paul. So have at it. What do you perceive as the differences, and why do you think that? Are the differences appropriate? Do some want to live like Jewish people? Or do they want to consider themselves as "dogs" (Mt 15:26) which is what Jesus calls a beseeching Canaanite woman? Right. Tossing the ball in...to.... plaaaayyyyyy.... now!

And therein lies the danger of reading everything in the epistles as though it applies directly to us, now (in whatever country and political regime we find ourselves). Wasn't this a political bit by Paul, who didn't want people falling out and getting into trouble with the super-power of the day? It's still a good idea to avoid conflict with government bodies... but there are limits. This could be a very interesting topic to discuss.

Submission? You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have any thought of your own - any suggestion about how something (even something incredibly minor) could be done better - YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO THE WORD. YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO LEADERSHIP. You are prideful and worldly (or carnal) in your thoughts. You have got to be MEEK! And with everyone tattle-taling on the slightest aberration - oh yes, we'll enforce meekness upon you. How many threads have we had about "face melting"? What's that about? It's about not being meek. It's about terrorising the "meltee" into submission. Oh yes. Bullying into submission was an art form in TWI. All done in love, of course (cough, choke). :mad2:/>

TLC, why are you talking about Aaronic priesthoods? I'm not! I'm interested in "gift ministries" such as they may be. Arguably the Aaronic priesthood was a "gift ministry" at a specific time and to a specific group which is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is: are there any definitions of Apostles, etc - outside of any TWI definitions. And that's what this thread was discussing, before your diversions. BTW I am not being condescending in asking you to please keep to the subject. I have requested you to present any point relevant to the subject of this thread succinctly so that it can be considered.

TLC, you overlook that God's plan wasn't to have one exclusive tribe (Israel) or sub-tribe (Judah (and Benjamin)) as His "pet" and only love that group. God's plan was that that tribe then subtribe should serve as an example to ALL nations. Which would then want to know more and come to to the knowledge of Him. The promises to Abraham in Gen 12 and Gen 18 (“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice”) predate by centuries the "Jews" that you refer to. Please don't be argumentative. Think through your point and present it as succinctly as you can, so that those here who want to consider it can do so easily.

...as rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc.Maybe there really are no "gift ministries" to define, and what we have to do is simply to model our lives as closely as possible on how Jesus lived his earthly life. I am not sure, even, that what we do is limited by Jesus - or by God - but by what we ourselves simply prefer to do. Most people limit themselves by being afraid to speak, to do, to act. They simply don't grasp the fullness of … Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. And 1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. Whatever we do, all of our body is part of it. We were taught in TWI that we had differing functions that all worked together; people jested about being the "toenail" or a hair of the back of Christ. No! He is all in all, and we are all in all. Our DNA permeates every aspect of our bodies. So does our "spiritual DNA." Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me" is bigger than just dealing with our physical needs of lack or abundance. John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." So, then, if Jesus was rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc... ...aren't we too supposed to be all of these things ...with no "ministries" other than our own preferences and choices at any given time? ...and how we miss out by thinking we're not up to the task... :( (I'm a bit grumpy this morning. Went to my housegroup last night and they were all so negative and so shy about speaking the gospel to anybody. "It's not our gift! But you're just so bold and you can talk to anybody, Twinky! We know we're afraid of offending people! You sound angry and critical, Twinky!". ... No, I'm not angry, I'm passionate that people should enjoy the fullness of the Christ in them, get out and serve others, and not use the excuse of hiding in the church walls and "serving" there.)

It took me a while but I am comfortable in the two churches I attend regularly. I do listen to things through the non-Trini filter though. And I find extemporary prayers rather garbled at times as to whom they are addressed, and in whose "name" they are prayed. I try to see beyond that. The people in the congregation are believers in God, in Jesus Christ and his accomplishments (even though their view and mine differ) and they pray with fervency of believing and expectation. I work in voluntary groups with other Christians and the trini idea never comes up; we all just love getting out there being the church in action and serving the people of this city with all our hearts, souls and strength. I have to say that though I may not be fully "onside" in a church (ie, a "church home"), I'm comfortable, happy, feel cared for and supported. AND, I feel a jolly sight more "at home" than I did when attending a splinter group for a short while or even just visiting a couple of Wayfer friends who regrettably are still seriously Waybrained. Now those fellowships (agh!) - they give me the creeps.

Again from Blue Letter Bible:

From Blue Letter Bible: Comments, anybody?

Thanks, DWBH and Rocky. I had a nice day and was taken out to the best Italian restaurant in the city, in the evening. All the waiters sang to me (and all the other birthday people). Lovely :) :) :) 40... if only... On second thoughts... when I was 40 I was still a "prisoner" of that organisation. Life is much better outside the walls of "the household."

Peace, DWBH. I'm just not going to get involved in your fight with MRAP. BTW I did see that interview with Lindsay and her father. I was with Ex10 and we were open-mouthed and shocked. It sounded unbelievably appalling - even to us, who have some background in the bizarre practices of TWI and its offshoots. How on earth could anyone do that? How could parents do that? And to their own daughter?!!!!

What does that mean? Do you mean, j'accuse? T-Bone, the film you're thinking of is "Spotlight" - excellent film. I found myself more than a little disturbed after seeing the film - angry at the cover-up, angry and distressed at what had been done to all of us by TWI.

That Mrs W in the front row, in the striped coat? The only one not smiling? Probably wondering which of the babes he's planning to "bless" later that day. Or night.

From my FB newsfeed: (KMSP) - Brazil’s highest court, the Supremo Tribunal Federal, has approved the extradition of alleged cult leader victor Barnard to Minnesota, where he faces 52 counts of sexually abusing minors in his religious sect. Pine County Attorney Reese Frederickson confirms for Fox 9 that he has been notified that extradition will now proceed, but he was unaware of the timeline or other details. Marsh Halberg, Barnard’s defense attorney, told Fox 9 it was Barnard who requested the expedited decision, which Halberg says was made by a smaller panel of the Brazilian Supreme Court. Halberg said he believes the timeline for Barnard to arrive back in Minnesota would be in the next six months. Brazilian media are reporting that one of the conditions for extradition is that Barnard does not face more than 30 years in prison, and that his time already spent in Brazil be deducted from his sentence. The ruling from Brazil's high court, which includes these conditions, cannot be appealed. Halberg says he believes Brazil’s condition, that Barnard not face more than 30 years if convicted, could be a stumbling block. Barnard is 54 years old. “I don’t know if, as a matter of policy, the U.S. government would agree to conditionally extradite someone,” Halberg said. “In a practical sense, it would be a life sentence anyway." Barnard’s religious group, the River Road Fellowship, had remained largely unknown until a major investigation by the Fox 9 Investigators in February 2014 that revealed two women who say they were sexually abused by Barnard when they were just 12 and 13 years old. That investigation led to criminal charges and a global manhunt for Barnard, who was eventually captured in Brazil. In November 2015, Brazil media reported that Barnard tried to hang himself in a suicide attempt while in a federal prison in Brazil. But other reporting indicated he may have been assaulted by fellow prisoners. Methinks that even if he gets a max of 30 years (which means he'll be in his 80s at projected release date), he may not survive so long... prisoners don't like men like him, he might suffer a few accidents... the last of which might be fatal.

@ DWBH: what do you think about the above comment? A further thought this morning: the OT prophets, such as they were, appear to have stood outside the formal synagogue or temple system. Not always - or even often - priests and Levites, just men getting on with life. Ordinary men to whom God spoke. One man who was in a priestly position (Zechariah) was struck dumb when God (via an angel) actually spoke to him. Jeremiah was the son of a priest, but is not noted as a priest himself; Isaiah makes no claims; Ezekiel was a priest; Amos was a shepherd; Daniel was an administrator... and so on. What were the rabbis? Teachers... but with what credentials? Some clearly were of the "priestly" caste (Gamaliel, Paul) but Jesus, with no such creds, is also called Rabbi. Jesus's cousin John, was he called a rabbi? His father Z as noted was a priest, but John was noted as a "wild man" not for his priestly standing.

I think you're probably right about the RC church (and its predecessors) having institutionalised and brought in a lot of our culture of who does what in the church. I am baffled by most church nomenclature and tradition, and think a lot is still about a "power-grab" and desire to exercise control by hierarchial institutions - despite big advances to "devolve power" and much more open church leadership. Thank God we aren't still in the medieval intensive control or the separation of church and laity by rood screens and other devices (look it up if you don't understand). [by "predecessors," I mean whatever preceded the east/west split in the RC church (council of Nicaea?) (sorry, I don't know much about early church history!) - and whatever had been incorporated from much earlier versions of worship (both pagan and Christian).] Probably, additionally, an understanding of Greek and Roman cultural backgrounds at the post-Acts time would also help - what, specifically, would Paul or Peter or anybody else have been addressing? 1 Peter calls "the exiles" to whom he's writing a "royal priesthood" - I don't know if that can be applied to Gentile believers, who weren't part of "God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia" (1 Pet 1:1). Paul as you know describes "ambassadors" with the "ministry of reconciliation." But who exactly are these ambassadors? We've been taught that it's all Christians - the letter (2 Cor) is written to "the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia" (and extrapolated to all of the Christian churches then and now) 2 Cor 5 gives us the familiar verses: 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." He's writing a letter saying we have the ministry of reconciliation - we, as in Paul and those who are with him? (it's clearly aimed at you, the Corinthians) or we, as in all Christians? (the latter, as usually taught - but is that correct??) Could it be, then, that there is merely the one ministry - ambassadorial, exercised by the ministers who are the "royal priesthood," and everything else is to support that one ministry? (Which maybe we all have, or maybe it is restricted to some individuals or some historical group(s).) "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men... 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints (KJV comma omitted) for the work of the ministry (of reconciliation), for the edifying of the body of Christ." Which still begs the question, these gifts to the church, of prophets, etc, (whose job description is "the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry of reconciliation") - do they have more specific "job descriptions" or is it just the function that they are fulfilling at any given time (of teaching or pastoring etc). Are they all encompassed in the role of "prophet" in the OT (and perhaps "rabbi" by Gospel times). Is an OT prophet the same as a NT rabbi? For surely, both have wise words to say, to help and guide those who seek advice of them; to give leadership. I can see both prophets and rabbis being "prophets, pastors and teachers" - also evangelists if a narrower interpretation of that is given (speaking well, giving a good message - not including what we'd call "outreach"). Apostles, I'm not so sure about. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Apologies if this sounds a bit rambling, I know what I'm trying to say, not like me to be so inarticulate. I'm trying to (re)read things in a way that sets aside preconceived ideas and ancient wrong teaching; trying to find my own fresh take on things. The answer is simple...because the things of God are simple. Even if deep.

That was precisely what happened for me! I was so desperate (M&A'd by TWI) that I wanted to write a huge long grovelly letter of apology in hopes of being readmitted. I couldn't remember their zip code. Googled TWI and GSC popped up as the first item. The name sounded intriguingly familiar... the reading was horrifying but had a ring of truth... the rest is history. That long grovelly letter never got written. Thank God for Pawtucket and for GSC and all who run the cafe now.

Well, I had hoped that this could be a serious discussion, not a slug-fest. Something (as its in Doctrinal) (ie not in the TWI forum) that maybe could have been useful. But hey, have at it. Fight yourselves silly. Don't discuss the question, discuss anything but the question. If anybody ever brings this back on topic, PM me so that I can keep up. Or PM me if you have any intelligent comment to offer and want to discuss outside the developing fisticuffs. :asdf:/>

DWBH, please don 't attack TLC; better if you just ignore him! But since you encourage further discussion, this is what I asked you: Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them. And that could give some useful insight. Thanks, Twinx

Welcome, Collateral Damage. This is a safe place to explore what you really think and believe. It's good that you and your wife have got out intact and on your terms. If you haven't been a lurker and have already spent some time quietly reading here, do explore some of the older threads. You will find much that will shock and appall and anger you - and answer some of the niggling questions you never dared ask. Have a cup of coffee while you're reading: Great avatar!!

DWBH, please don't bow out! I take on board your comments about Paul. Yes, we have to consider where he is coming from. As well as to whom he is speaking, and what they might (or not) believe, and therefore what issues needed to be addressed. Paul calls himself (1 Cor 15:9) "the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because..." And yet, he is accepted as such by the other "leadership" (for want of a better word). As perhaps also are some of those accompanying Paul, whom he took with him to Jerusalem when they agreed the appropriate doctrine for (former) Gentile believers. Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them? I must go back into my copy of the Didache and see what if anything that says.

Satisfying, isn't it! I pulled loads of books and teaching notes etc apart and stuffed them in the woodburner. Tapes and videos too. Wasn't going to risk anyone getting their hands (and head) into it.Have fun, MRAP. You are allowed to go well over the two-drink limit :beer:/>.