Twinky

Submission? You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have got to be MEEK! You have any thought of your own - any suggestion about how something (even something incredibly minor) could be done better - YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO THE WORD. YOU ARE NOT MEEK TO LEADERSHIP. You are prideful and worldly (or carnal) in your thoughts. You have got to be MEEK! And with everyone tattle-taling on the slightest aberration - oh yes, we'll enforce meekness upon you. How many threads have we had about "face melting"? What's that about? It's about not being meek. It's about terrorising the "meltee" into submission. Oh yes. Bullying into submission was an art form in TWI. All done in love, of course (cough, choke). :mad2:/>

TLC, why are you talking about Aaronic priesthoods? I'm not! I'm interested in "gift ministries" such as they may be. Arguably the Aaronic priesthood was a "gift ministry" at a specific time and to a specific group which is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is: are there any definitions of Apostles, etc - outside of any TWI definitions. And that's what this thread was discussing, before your diversions. BTW I am not being condescending in asking you to please keep to the subject. I have requested you to present any point relevant to the subject of this thread succinctly so that it can be considered.

TLC, you overlook that God's plan wasn't to have one exclusive tribe (Israel) or sub-tribe (Judah (and Benjamin)) as His "pet" and only love that group. God's plan was that that tribe then subtribe should serve as an example to ALL nations. Which would then want to know more and come to to the knowledge of Him. The promises to Abraham in Gen 12 and Gen 18 (“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice”) predate by centuries the "Jews" that you refer to. Please don't be argumentative. Think through your point and present it as succinctly as you can, so that those here who want to consider it can do so easily.

...as rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc.Maybe there really are no "gift ministries" to define, and what we have to do is simply to model our lives as closely as possible on how Jesus lived his earthly life. I am not sure, even, that what we do is limited by Jesus - or by God - but by what we ourselves simply prefer to do. Most people limit themselves by being afraid to speak, to do, to act. They simply don't grasp the fullness of … Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. And 1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. Whatever we do, all of our body is part of it. We were taught in TWI that we had differing functions that all worked together; people jested about being the "toenail" or a hair of the back of Christ. No! He is all in all, and we are all in all. Our DNA permeates every aspect of our bodies. So does our "spiritual DNA." Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me" is bigger than just dealing with our physical needs of lack or abundance. John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." So, then, if Jesus was rabbi (gospels), organiser (gospels), apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher (Pauline epistles), healer (gospels), arguer, defender, helper etc... ...aren't we too supposed to be all of these things ...with no "ministries" other than our own preferences and choices at any given time? ...and how we miss out by thinking we're not up to the task... :( (I'm a bit grumpy this morning. Went to my housegroup last night and they were all so negative and so shy about speaking the gospel to anybody. "It's not our gift! But you're just so bold and you can talk to anybody, Twinky! We know we're afraid of offending people! You sound angry and critical, Twinky!". ... No, I'm not angry, I'm passionate that people should enjoy the fullness of the Christ in them, get out and serve others, and not use the excuse of hiding in the church walls and "serving" there.)

It took me a while but I am comfortable in the two churches I attend regularly. I do listen to things through the non-Trini filter though. And I find extemporary prayers rather garbled at times as to whom they are addressed, and in whose "name" they are prayed. I try to see beyond that. The people in the congregation are believers in God, in Jesus Christ and his accomplishments (even though their view and mine differ) and they pray with fervency of believing and expectation. I work in voluntary groups with other Christians and the trini idea never comes up; we all just love getting out there being the church in action and serving the people of this city with all our hearts, souls and strength. I have to say that though I may not be fully "onside" in a church (ie, a "church home"), I'm comfortable, happy, feel cared for and supported. AND, I feel a jolly sight more "at home" than I did when attending a splinter group for a short while or even just visiting a couple of Wayfer friends who regrettably are still seriously Waybrained. Now those fellowships (agh!) - they give me the creeps.

Again from Blue Letter Bible:

From Blue Letter Bible: Comments, anybody?

Thanks, DWBH and Rocky. I had a nice day and was taken out to the best Italian restaurant in the city, in the evening. All the waiters sang to me (and all the other birthday people). Lovely :) :) :) 40... if only... On second thoughts... when I was 40 I was still a "prisoner" of that organisation. Life is much better outside the walls of "the household."

Peace, DWBH. I'm just not going to get involved in your fight with MRAP. BTW I did see that interview with Lindsay and her father. I was with Ex10 and we were open-mouthed and shocked. It sounded unbelievably appalling - even to us, who have some background in the bizarre practices of TWI and its offshoots. How on earth could anyone do that? How could parents do that? And to their own daughter?!!!!

What does that mean? Do you mean, j'accuse? T-Bone, the film you're thinking of is "Spotlight" - excellent film. I found myself more than a little disturbed after seeing the film - angry at the cover-up, angry and distressed at what had been done to all of us by TWI.

That Mrs W in the front row, in the striped coat? The only one not smiling? Probably wondering which of the babes he's planning to "bless" later that day. Or night.

From my FB newsfeed: (KMSP) - Brazil’s highest court, the Supremo Tribunal Federal, has approved the extradition of alleged cult leader victor Barnard to Minnesota, where he faces 52 counts of sexually abusing minors in his religious sect. Pine County Attorney Reese Frederickson confirms for Fox 9 that he has been notified that extradition will now proceed, but he was unaware of the timeline or other details. Marsh Halberg, Barnard’s defense attorney, told Fox 9 it was Barnard who requested the expedited decision, which Halberg says was made by a smaller panel of the Brazilian Supreme Court. Halberg said he believes the timeline for Barnard to arrive back in Minnesota would be in the next six months. Brazilian media are reporting that one of the conditions for extradition is that Barnard does not face more than 30 years in prison, and that his time already spent in Brazil be deducted from his sentence. The ruling from Brazil's high court, which includes these conditions, cannot be appealed. Halberg says he believes Brazil’s condition, that Barnard not face more than 30 years if convicted, could be a stumbling block. Barnard is 54 years old. “I don’t know if, as a matter of policy, the U.S. government would agree to conditionally extradite someone,” Halberg said. “In a practical sense, it would be a life sentence anyway." Barnard’s religious group, the River Road Fellowship, had remained largely unknown until a major investigation by the Fox 9 Investigators in February 2014 that revealed two women who say they were sexually abused by Barnard when they were just 12 and 13 years old. That investigation led to criminal charges and a global manhunt for Barnard, who was eventually captured in Brazil. In November 2015, Brazil media reported that Barnard tried to hang himself in a suicide attempt while in a federal prison in Brazil. But other reporting indicated he may have been assaulted by fellow prisoners. Methinks that even if he gets a max of 30 years (which means he'll be in his 80s at projected release date), he may not survive so long... prisoners don't like men like him, he might suffer a few accidents... the last of which might be fatal.

@ DWBH: what do you think about the above comment? A further thought this morning: the OT prophets, such as they were, appear to have stood outside the formal synagogue or temple system. Not always - or even often - priests and Levites, just men getting on with life. Ordinary men to whom God spoke. One man who was in a priestly position (Zechariah) was struck dumb when God (via an angel) actually spoke to him. Jeremiah was the son of a priest, but is not noted as a priest himself; Isaiah makes no claims; Ezekiel was a priest; Amos was a shepherd; Daniel was an administrator... and so on. What were the rabbis? Teachers... but with what credentials? Some clearly were of the "priestly" caste (Gamaliel, Paul) but Jesus, with no such creds, is also called Rabbi. Jesus's cousin John, was he called a rabbi? His father Z as noted was a priest, but John was noted as a "wild man" not for his priestly standing.

I think you're probably right about the RC church (and its predecessors) having institutionalised and brought in a lot of our culture of who does what in the church. I am baffled by most church nomenclature and tradition, and think a lot is still about a "power-grab" and desire to exercise control by hierarchial institutions - despite big advances to "devolve power" and much more open church leadership. Thank God we aren't still in the medieval intensive control or the separation of church and laity by rood screens and other devices (look it up if you don't understand). [by "predecessors," I mean whatever preceded the east/west split in the RC church (council of Nicaea?) (sorry, I don't know much about early church history!) - and whatever had been incorporated from much earlier versions of worship (both pagan and Christian).] Probably, additionally, an understanding of Greek and Roman cultural backgrounds at the post-Acts time would also help - what, specifically, would Paul or Peter or anybody else have been addressing? 1 Peter calls "the exiles" to whom he's writing a "royal priesthood" - I don't know if that can be applied to Gentile believers, who weren't part of "God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia" (1 Pet 1:1). Paul as you know describes "ambassadors" with the "ministry of reconciliation." But who exactly are these ambassadors? We've been taught that it's all Christians - the letter (2 Cor) is written to "the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia" (and extrapolated to all of the Christian churches then and now) 2 Cor 5 gives us the familiar verses: 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." He's writing a letter saying we have the ministry of reconciliation - we, as in Paul and those who are with him? (it's clearly aimed at you, the Corinthians) or we, as in all Christians? (the latter, as usually taught - but is that correct??) Could it be, then, that there is merely the one ministry - ambassadorial, exercised by the ministers who are the "royal priesthood," and everything else is to support that one ministry? (Which maybe we all have, or maybe it is restricted to some individuals or some historical group(s).) "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men... 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints (KJV comma omitted) for the work of the ministry (of reconciliation), for the edifying of the body of Christ." Which still begs the question, these gifts to the church, of prophets, etc, (whose job description is "the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry of reconciliation") - do they have more specific "job descriptions" or is it just the function that they are fulfilling at any given time (of teaching or pastoring etc). Are they all encompassed in the role of "prophet" in the OT (and perhaps "rabbi" by Gospel times). Is an OT prophet the same as a NT rabbi? For surely, both have wise words to say, to help and guide those who seek advice of them; to give leadership. I can see both prophets and rabbis being "prophets, pastors and teachers" - also evangelists if a narrower interpretation of that is given (speaking well, giving a good message - not including what we'd call "outreach"). Apostles, I'm not so sure about. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Apologies if this sounds a bit rambling, I know what I'm trying to say, not like me to be so inarticulate. I'm trying to (re)read things in a way that sets aside preconceived ideas and ancient wrong teaching; trying to find my own fresh take on things. The answer is simple...because the things of God are simple. Even if deep.

That was precisely what happened for me! I was so desperate (M&A'd by TWI) that I wanted to write a huge long grovelly letter of apology in hopes of being readmitted. I couldn't remember their zip code. Googled TWI and GSC popped up as the first item. The name sounded intriguingly familiar... the reading was horrifying but had a ring of truth... the rest is history. That long grovelly letter never got written. Thank God for Pawtucket and for GSC and all who run the cafe now.

Well, I had hoped that this could be a serious discussion, not a slug-fest. Something (as its in Doctrinal) (ie not in the TWI forum) that maybe could have been useful. But hey, have at it. Fight yourselves silly. Don't discuss the question, discuss anything but the question. If anybody ever brings this back on topic, PM me so that I can keep up. Or PM me if you have any intelligent comment to offer and want to discuss outside the developing fisticuffs. :asdf:/>

DWBH, please don 't attack TLC; better if you just ignore him! But since you encourage further discussion, this is what I asked you: Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them. And that could give some useful insight. Thanks, Twinx

Welcome, Collateral Damage. This is a safe place to explore what you really think and believe. It's good that you and your wife have got out intact and on your terms. If you haven't been a lurker and have already spent some time quietly reading here, do explore some of the older threads. You will find much that will shock and appall and anger you - and answer some of the niggling questions you never dared ask. Have a cup of coffee while you're reading: Great avatar!!

DWBH, please don't bow out! I take on board your comments about Paul. Yes, we have to consider where he is coming from. As well as to whom he is speaking, and what they might (or not) believe, and therefore what issues needed to be addressed. Paul calls himself (1 Cor 15:9) "the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because..." And yet, he is accepted as such by the other "leadership" (for want of a better word). As perhaps also are some of those accompanying Paul, whom he took with him to Jerusalem when they agreed the appropriate doctrine for (former) Gentile believers. Your Jewish background and the many other things that you bring to the table can give a particularly good insight into what "gift ministries" might be. I would like to hear what you have to say about, perhaps, how Jewish backgrounds might come into play. Does it just stop nowadays at "rabbi"? What is a rabbi, if that could be fitted into any of the "gift ministries" - or would a rabbi be (a bit of) all of them? I must go back into my copy of the Didache and see what if anything that says.

Satisfying, isn't it! I pulled loads of books and teaching notes etc apart and stuffed them in the woodburner. Tapes and videos too. Wasn't going to risk anyone getting their hands (and head) into it.Have fun, MRAP. You are allowed to go well over the two-drink limit :beer:/>.

I don't think there has ever been a Win 9, T-Bone. My laptop went in for a complete overhaul over the Christmas period, and as part of that I had Win10 installed, as Win8 and its various updates was causing me no end of problems and seemed to clash with some of the other programs or add-ons. Happy to say that Win10 has never been a problem (so far; it's 3 months in) and I love it. So much easier to use. More like Win7 but much much better. Very glad I upgraded to Win 10. No incompatibility issues (and no other programs/add-ins changed either!). So if anyone is considering upgrading to the free Win10 offer, I'd say, go for it!!

Please have annother look at my starter post: Would it be possible for responses to address this question, please? Chockfull, I hear what you say!! And yet, I am sure there are some people who are far more gifted at teaching (expounding the gospel) than others, just as there are some who are better at what's known as "pastoral care." And some people (evangelists?) can talk to practically anyone and get them enthused by the gospel. So, I am equally sure there must be "apostles" and "prophets" - whatever they are in the current face of Christianity. Perhaps the current need in the Christian church is for evangelists, pastors and teachers. Or perhaps we conflate the roles of apostle and prophet with evangelistic, pastoral and teaching roles?

Wherever did you get that drivel, DWBH? Taken out of whatever context it appeared - if it had been in any kind of mainstream church newsletter, magazine, circular, bishop's letter or anything else - I'd be wondering what kind of arrogant, elitist, exclusive nutjob wrote it and how fast I could get outa there... Lol, "it never ceases to frustrate me that we aren't reaching more of them" - has he ever considered why his efforts are frustrated? By whom?

The real question is NOT "Why did TWI collapse so quickly?" - because it didn't,it has been on the take for more than 60 years and still is mouldering on - the real question is, "Why did it last so long?"

At a very basic level, critical thinking might include: "How can this task be done better?" or even, "Why is this task being done at all?" Non-critical thinking might include: "Will this satisfy this leader and how he wants this task done?" For example: stringing chairs. Was that level of precision necessary? >Skyrider posted about using the dents in the floor made by previous stringings, as a quicker way to do set-up. >Others might think of getting chairs with loops on the legs, so that they become one long line. >Others might think of getting other forms of seating, if appropriate. >Or choosing a different venue. >>Or whether the reason the chairs were set out was necessary at all. Or maybe, non-critical thinking was simply, "If this chair is slightly out of line, I'll get chewed out/ a face melting/ there'll be trouble."